Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on July 17, 2001, 08:47:00 AM
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I cant believe they are all at WW2OL, so where are they?
Now before I go on with this post I hope to make it clear this is an honest and well-meaning post to discuss wht the LW and LW aircraft pilots are or seem to be leaving AH in large numbers.
If the usual suspects wish to ridicule me and this post, please go ahead and enjoy yourself as I certainly cant stop you. Nonetheless I openly ask you to refrain from such behavior in this post.
I hope this post reaches those with an open mind and a positive and constructive attitude so a good discussion develops and perhaps some good ideas and suggestions emerge to reverse this trend.
Thank you.
Best way to do this may just be to pose several simple questions and see where it takes us?
Why are LW leaving, what is driving them away?
Ceratinly there is great evidence of this on the BBS and the MA, both individual LW pilots and whole squads seem to be dissapering.
What could we as individual AH players do about this?
What advice could you give to LW pilots considering leaving AH?
What could the AH community do to reatain a LW presence in the MA?
Does the AH community desire a strong or any LW presence in the game?
What could HTC do to retain these LW customers?
LW pay $30 a month just like anyone and if there is a recent trend in their product that alienates a certain customer group one must think HTC is concerned.
Does anyone care?
Thats about it for now, I guess.
Please keep the note at the top of this post in mind before you respond.
Lets have a good discussion and come up with constructive ideas!
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Any alienation was done of their own accord. People didn't demand that LW congregate toward one country.
AKDejaVu
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First of all, they can start stop calling themselves the "LW" or "LuftWaffe"... they are a bunch of cyber dorks that play a computer game. They do not fly for or are affiliated with the LuftWaffe inside this game.
virtualLuftWaffe or vLW works for me.
Second of all, with a combined kill tally (amongst all German aircraft) of 9453... I don't see the self-proclaimed uber Hauptmann vonLuftWaffeDoppleDingers actually disappearing from the face of the earth.
Third of all, why are you coming to us thinking that we will show these "LuftWaffe" players the light? If they can't see it, we can't lead them to it. It's plain and obvious what the problem is, and it ain't the planes/guns/AH.
-SW
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I think it may be your perception, Grun. I count no fewer than 4 LW squads in the top 50 Squad scores, and no less than 17 LW squads listed at HTC. I think what you percieve is the vocal ones, and the vets that were here from day one have moved on...that's normal in any online sim, seen it happen in AW, then Warbirds, seen it here too. LW flyers are alive and well in AH, they are just not the guys that you're accustomed to seeing, the Kirins, the Rams, the MrBeans, there is a whole new breed of LW flyers out there today.
Yes, new sims have taken their toll on HTC's income, but not to the point that it makes any difference to me, the other night I ran into a 4 some of 109 drivers, they flew it very good, I was lucky to get out of there alive (run like a girl!).
AH is like a 5 gallon bucket of water, when you stick your hand in the bucket and then pull it out, do you perceive any drop in the water? Nope. Actually, for every person that leaves, I meet two newbies online!
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I still remember that dogfight we had a week or two ago Rip... still fresh in my mind.
EDIT: Maybe too fresh in my mind, it must of been 3 weeks ago! :eek: (just looked at the date)
It's always the hard, good fights with great players that stick in your head.
S! Rip!
-SW
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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<S> back at 'cha wulfie!
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My opinion would be: the game got boring, since nothing new was around than quake on wings.
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The first two to reply on this thread haven't come with any meaningful answer rather than squeaking. Being themselves again, I cannot blame them.
I am in contact with few of the former AH LW contingent. All from 9./JG54. They went to WW2OL, however, seems that the game isn't what they expected. Now they are in WB. While I still prefer AH FM and the game itself, if my squad went to WB, I will join them.
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
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I think that with the much-hated islands map we had the last 1.5 weeks, a larger majority of the sorties were flown from CVs. This limits the aircraft choices to non-LW.
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If you are going to insist that we should care that these self-proclaimed Experten are leaving, you are sadly mistaken.
The only one I will miss is StSanta, if he leaves.
-SW
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hmmmmmm...
[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]
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That's a whole rack of red Xs HB...
-SW
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Not sure. Then again do (or did) we have the USAAF here? The RAF? The IJAAF? The VVS? etc etc???
I can only say I saw several players who role played, pretended to be a pilot on the bad guys side and found when they needed to use the tools required to fill out the costume they balked (as they have in AW, WB's and now AH) and they migrate away in search of a place that will elevate thier rides to a percieved level of superiority. Most have usually then vocally left but not before denigrating the FM of brand XX's ME's and FW's as being wrong, totally bogus and part of some imagined conspiracy.
Right now WW2O with the hokey and physics defying flight model seems to be the magnet. The 109 rules the roost there, and is that not what the pseudo LW wants and thinks is correct? Alas, where they will go when the WW2O FM is (if!) brought more in line to mimick reality is unkown. And CRS has said FM changes are in the works.
What I look forward to when I log online is to fly and fight against other people. I chuckle at the folks wearing costumes and playing make believe.
Then again it's thier money so it's also thier perogative. They can pretend to be anything they want to. Untill it over spills into what they demand and who or what they accuse of being wrong because of thier perception. And their is a long histerical, or historical, precedent for that in every online sim/game out there. The LW adoration types whine the most the longest and the loudest.
But you asked my opinion so I added it here.
Westy
(I've not aded what I really think of people who admire and pretend to be a member of one arm of the Nazi war machine. A group who were supported by thier society and were bent on subjugating and enslaving those that they could)
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Pretty much what Rip said. There's still plenty of LW aircraft in the virtual skies.
Only some individual players have left. If they weren't happy, why would they stay? I hope they find the game they enjoy. That's the point of a game isn't it?
I don't see the problem. People come, people go, the game goes on.
Also, it's summer, a historically slow time for these games. Only a relatively insignificant few have left (cancelled the account), numbers-wise. I believe most people are simply playing less while maintaining an account.
When winter drives folks back into the house at night instead of out INTO the night with a convertible and a significant other, numbers will pick up again.
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Originally posted by Westy MOL:
(I've not aded what I really think of people who admire and pretend to be a member of one arm of the Nazi war machine. A group who were supported by thier society and were bent on subjugating and enslaving those that they could)
I admire the real LW pilots who fought and died in WWII no less than I admire anyone else who fought and died in that war. Given that their cause was wrong, unjust, and downright evil, they still gave their lives (or at least offered to give, that's what happens when you take up a plane or pick up a rifle in times of war) to their country. I'd have admired them more than the Allied warriors had they defected from the facist regime, but that rarely, if ever, happened. I'm sure not every man in the German forces was a Nazi or believed in the Nazi party, especially if the German army used conscripts (I don't know if they did or not.)
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<shrug> can't imagine myself flyin anything other than a 109. Although I admit to flyin a P-51 on attack missions.
Maybe its just the time of year. Summertime is a bit busy for me. Folks on vacation etc. Might explain some of it. It usually cycles back in the fall.
Drano
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I have been spending a lot of time in the Training arena. ArtLaws spent some time with me in the 109 which I had almost no experience in. I have flown the 109G2 for the last 2 Tours on non-squad nights and have really been having fun. Even though I chose to be in a P-47 squadron and I feel that I am MUCH better in other rides. I fly in my squadron because I like and respect the guys I fly with. I enjoy the JUG too but not because its a superior plane but for me it is a chalenge to learn to win in it. I do enjoy learning how to fly EVERY plane in Aces High and understanding there strength and weaknesses. I plan to start learning the German Aircraft and flying them in the next Rumble for the Axis. For no other reason then I want to enjoy flying all the planes, learn new things, meet new freinds and simply to have FUN. :)
Salute
Thunder
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The first two to reply on this thread haven't come with any meaningful answer rather than squeaking. Being themselves again, I cannot blame them.
Ummmm... I did no squeaking in my post. The question itself is allienating. Why should we treat LW pilots any different than anyone else? What makes anyone think more or less LW pilots are leaving than anyone else? Why do we need kid gloves for one group of pilots?
Attempting to come up with a meaningful answer to these type of questions is ludicrous.
All we can do is apply our observations to other people's decisions. All answers will be skewed by perspective and... here's the kicker... all answers will be wrong.
People leave for many reasons. To feel that those quiting can accurately explain why they quit is somewhat unreasonable. To feel that others can do it is actually quite funny.
So... my observations:
A group of people tried to achieve a tad bit more historical accuracy by congregating in one country. Frustration seemed to prevail as few others were concerned with bringing the same level of historical accuracy to the MA. People responded to this in different ways. That's it.
Now.. to call that meaningfull is a stretch. To think anyone else's answer is more or less accurate is a stretch.
AKDejaVu
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I can only comment on JG2. Many of us just had real life issues to take care of. Guys like myself, Sour, Daniko, Gustav, Yiptoad, BigJoe, Ash (to name a few) have our real lives and at times it is hard to juggle between the two. JG2 had some that went to WWIIOL. JG2 is still alive with Minus, Major Tom, Gium, Deluxe and a few others.
I mainly flew German planes and I have no gripes about them as an airframe, but then again I was not good enough to know if the planes FM was correct or not. I just saddled up and hit the "E" key. I played AH for what it was, a simulation used for FUN.
My most fondest times were flying with JG2 as a group and I can honestly say we used the German aircraft well and always seemed to cause disruption amoung the enemy a few times. :)
I should be joining AH again shortly and will want to be part of a squad. Maybe back to JG2? I don't know, depends on the numbers. I do enjoy flying with a group of people. I had loads of fun flying with the 303. They always welcomed me. Seems I flew with them once a week. :)
But please do not label all pilots of German squadron as 'whiners" or people who need to be shown the light. I've been seeing the light for a long time and it always seemed pretty bright to me. :)
This simulations is what you make it. If it isn't exactly what you are looking for and you still choose to participate, then ya need to adjust. Adjust to what the plane's FM is, not what you want it to be, or what you think it should be.
Swager's #1 rule in flying Aces High:
"Check your damn ego in at the coatroom!"
Have a Nice Day! ;)
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I don't see the whole LW contingent as a bunch of whiners.
Just a few very vocal individuals.
And BTW, I hope santa leaves - he's nothing but an uncouth Dane with yearnings to rekindle ancient Viking desires. These involve crossing the North Sea and molesting innocent English sheep.
He also likes leather far too much to be healthy, the dirty swine. :D
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Originally posted by Fishu:
My opinion would be: the game got boring, since nothing new was around than quake on wings.
And of course that would be their own fault, we have Check sixes and Snap shots, not tot mention the Big scenarios...
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Yea, I don't think we are seeing any less of the 109s or 190s, we are just seeing less of the "Old Guard" flying them. The planes are still flying, they just have fresh new faces in them (like mine :D ). As a side note.. I do "whine" sometimes about the state of the German planes, and it is just a personal foible of mine. Look at it like it is a Gunman impression and ignore me for a bit. I really do think that the German planes can be very nice rides, provided you keep your strengths and weaknesses in mind, along with those of the plane you are flying against.
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Swager, I've been flying the G10 alot lately, brings back memories of JG2 (and the fact that the G10 *should* be perked!~ thats for you Santa, last 4 weeks flying it sporadically I'm 27-2, all ATA kills,no Fulches)...feel free to give us a jingle, you can still fly your LW stuff in our squad, I do!. ;)
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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Groinhurts, you both exhibit and exemplyfy a problem.
Role playing Nutters.
I see more and more German planes all the time, as more and more people move onto, in their own time, from the famous and familiar such as the Spitfire and Mustang to the more demanding aircraft such as the 109 and the excellent Fockwulf as their skill sets improve and they look to broaden their horizons.
But this is not Luftwaffe is it? These are just people for whom the plane is a tool to further their aim of gaining a kill, not people for whom plane choice is a significant descision having meaning over and above the job in hand, spreading in all areas of you and your ilk's "AH life". From pouting your collective way through technical threads with petty, minor grievences despite a plethora of calls to "put up or shut up", to squeaking about scenario design choices and onto the unforgivable sniping after the Rumble. The Luftwaffe lost because their pilots weren't "real Luftwaffe"? You mean, they weren't actualy German, or that they hadn't actualy sworn the Oath of Alliegence? Where do you people get off?
The very fact you ask "where are the Luftwaffe" instead of "How many fly German planes" speaks for it's self.
In fact, if enough of 'em go, I'd be tempted to try a butcher bird myself; once the risk of being mistaken for Luftwaffe was gone.
So the Luftwaffe are leaving. Good. I'm quite shocked any sim would want such a bunch of persistantly whining, detail obsessed piss-poor sports men.
Hopefully, that'll leave the virtual skies free for fliers who appreciate fine machines for what they are, and leave their jackboots on the ground.
<Waves to Drano, Shane, Mitsu and numerous others who consistantly prove just how dam good german iron is>
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Funny thing is that nobody asks "Where has the AH RAF gone?" because there has never been much RAF in AH. There are guys who fly Spitfires and Typhoons or Tempests, but historical RAF squads have found little footing here.
Why? Guys who have a fetish for a particular air force are probably never going to be happy in a game like AH which attempts to treat the airplanes of all air forces equally.
That's why they make boxed sims which specialize in one air force or airplane. The guys who have read all the books and seen all the movies about how "their" planes or pilots are "the best" can play a game designed to match their fantasy.
AH is not that kind of game. And I don't think HTC should go out of their way to attract that type of player.
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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Personaly I prefer the Hawk 75 to the 109 in WW2, I find it suits my flying style much better, I like to turn fight and It works for me :)
I am in a Luftwaffe squad but I rarely fly Luftwaffe plane's, Not because they are not my favorate historicaly (they are) it is Just that they are not turn fighters, I fly the Zero, the yak and the 205, the 109f and the george on ocation, the non nationality type of areana we have makes this eneavatable certain planes will always be flown more often because they simply domanate the areana, this is this shortcoming of such an areana, I would rathger see countries pited aganst countries like in FA But with all that AH has to offer elswise.
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwD6d60JNIFs2mHfM9ggHF4xY6Gy1uBBOIL0vAzWuZ4VQ!pBhaoFjvmZM4qCFICQ)
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Let me ask you seeker why did you post like that in such an agressive and insulting way? Groinhurts?? What does that accomplish?
As for "role playing nutters"
Are the Members of 56FG, Raf 308 Polish, and the large number of dedicated and historic Allied squads deserving of such a colorful title?
Please dont post or stop posting in this thread if you intend to be an insulting smart-ass jerk. I intend this to be a serious thread to discuss a real issue.
SW put it well the 9 or 10 LW planes together have some 9400 kills, the Spit9 and Niki have 7,500 and 10,000 each. NO THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT SO DONT EVEN GO THERE! But it serves well to illustrate my point and my concern.
So please go away from this thread if you mean to make fun of people and be insulting!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
SW put it well the 9 or 10 LW planes together have some 9400 kills, the Spit9 and Niki have 7,500 and 10,000 each. NO THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT SO DONT EVEN GO THERE! But it serves well to illustrate my point and my concern.
How many kills have the German fighters been pulling in previous tours? Comparing the German fighter numbers to the Spit IX and N1K2 numbers doesn't support your argument or concern at all. Compare the 109 and 190 numbers from this tour (multiply by 2 to get an extrapolation) to those from Tour 17, 16, 15, etc. If you see a significant decline in numbers through the current tour, then your concerns will have a concrete number to go on (though numbers can be viewed subjectively.)
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GRUNHERZ
Why are LW leaving, what is driving them away?
Ach Der Lieber Mein Wookie is Kaput! j/k :)
Is it the Luftwaffe in general or is it fans of Luftwaffe planes.
From the amount of people I see in the game as opposed to the amount of people I see who post here, the only thing I can surmise is that there is a vocal minority.
The current design of the Main Arena does not lend itself to specializing in one countrys plane set. (IMO)
So fans of Luftwaffe planes (myself included)
are really not to much at odds with flying a luftwaffe plane.
However I can see that anyone who wishes to be " A Luftwaffe only" and employing strictly Luftwaffe planes and tactics and expecting similar style from others in the Main arena to comply with this type of game play MIGHT arrive at a degree of frustration. Causing them to find a better medium to exercise their style of game play.
The Main Arena is a highly competitive and unique environment. And with the introduction of new units and upgrades come new tactics,strats,gaming the game tactics ect. All of the above does not lend itself well to people or person who dont wish to adapt to the current style of play.
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Well Grunherz, the topic was not about the SpitIX or N1K2.
It was about your beloved LuftWeenies. How they are all running away, because the perception of how ultimate and fearful the LuftWaffe was in World War 2. They found it in WW2Ol, where the FM is off in lala land.
So here, I did the math for you.
Tour 15: The totals came out to 19127 total kills amongst the 8 LuftWaffle fighters.
Divide that by two, and it comes out to 9563.5 kills for those 8 LuftWaffle planes.
Lets compare that to my useless data and figure this one out. 9453 kills.
HOLY JEBUS! IT'S DOWN BY 110 KILLS!!!
I swear, sometimes I think people squeak just for the sake of squeaking. You do it top of the LuftWeenie class Grunherz. You wonder why people labeled your "elite LuftWaffe pilots" LuftWhiners?
It's self evident.
-SW
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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While Seeker didn't mince words he did get right to the root of the issue - imo. He did not do it in a 'politically' correct style but he was very much to the point and dead on. That, imo, is better.
Badawg and some others also said it very well. I've seen PLENTY of FW's and ME's the few times I've been online lately. Not flown by the old handles but I do suspect a good number of these new handles are old hands in shades or simply with new "personalities."
If not that then there are apparantly a definate number of very good NEW sticks flying LW aircraft. Which kind of makes me wonder a bit at just how big some of the ego's were of those who have departed in that they think thier loss would have a large impact on a games community and the online gameplay here.
BTW, I just heard Pete Seeger singing that moldy oldy on the net radio...
"Where have all the Lufwaffle gone?
Long time whining.
Where have all the Luftwaffle gone?
Lost long ago
Where have all the Luftwhiners gone?
They've gone to WillyWorldOnline, every one.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?....."
:)
(meant as humour for the humour impaired)
Westy
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Just to help everyone out, to show that I am NOT biased towards anyone plane or air force and that I do know wtf I am talking about rather than letting my anus spew forth drivel as if I am an all knowing being:
http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/fw_190a-5.htm (http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/fw_190a-5.htm) http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/bf_109f-4.htm (http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/bf_109f-4.htm) http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/bf_109g-2.htm (http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/bf_109g-2.htm)
It isn't the game and it isn't the planes that's making these supposed die hard LuftWaffles leave. It's their own self.
Hint: I flew in NJGr10 in WB, I am a LuftWaffle at heart and LLBM can attest to this fact!
-SW
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
[QB]Let me ask you seeker why did you post like that in such an agressive and insulting way? Groinhurts?? What does that accomplish?
About the same as this:
"NO THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT SO DONT EVEN GO THERE".
I can see the drool from here..
"As for "role playing nutters"
Are the Members of 56FG, Raf 308 Polish, and the large number of dedicated and historic Allied squads deserving of such a colorful title?"
On occasion, but rarely. You could add in the Japanese squads, who, for all I know ritually commit seppuku every time they get shot down with a big red felt tip pen, but they don't come grovelling here about it; or the Italian corps, but you tell me why there's such a difference.. Your boys, in comparison, wear the label with pride.
"I intend this to be a serious thread to discuss a real issue."
You're right. I'm serious too.
"SW put it well the 9 or 10 LW planes together have some 9400 kills, the Spit9 and Niki have 7,500 and 10,000 each. NO THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT SO DONT EVEN GO THERE! But it serves well to illustrate my point and my concern."
No it doesn't, it serves to illustrate your tenuous grip of reality. Try this: German planes are very good, and lots of people like them. They don't want to be associated with the spit flecked jackboot wearers, but that's a different story.
"So please go away from this thread if you mean to make fun of people and be insulting."
And poor Goebels, has no balls, at all!
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Just to help everyone out, to show that I am NOT biased towards anyone plane or air force and that I do know wtf I am talking about rather than letting my anus spew forth drivel as if I am an all knowing being:
http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/fw_190a-5.htm (http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/fw_190a-5.htm) http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/bf_109f-4.htm (http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/bf_109f-4.htm) http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/bf_109g-2.htm (http://www.dbstaines.com/Top10/Top100/bf_109g-2.htm)
It isn't the game and it isn't the planes that's making these supposed die hard LuftWaffles leave. It's their own self.
Hint: I flew in NJGr10 in WB, I am a LuftWaffle at heart and LLBM can attest to this fact!
-SW
you mean it'd only take me 19 kills in the G2 to get on the top 100 list for it???
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Truth is if I was in a dedicated Luftwaffe squad in AH I would be pissed off right now. I imagine I'd carry quite a chip on my shoulder both on the bbs and in the arena.
Everywhere I turn I see posts of "where has the real Luftwaffe gone" and the several not so subtle suggestions by the Axis Command in the Rumble that the reason for the Axis defeat was not having the "real Luftwaffe" on hand.
Damn right I'd be pissed. My group would be in the MA every night working on getting better. Our ultimate goal would be a Rumble rematch. But not against the Allied side, but against the "Real Luftwaffe" that thinks it cannot be replaced. Talk about a slap in the face to the guys taking up the LW iron these days.
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I like the 109 the best ..... still.
I try to force myself to fly other planes,gv, boat but 109 is the best for me. 109f for ftrs, g10 for bombers and the g6 for both, you can keep the g2 :)
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Preach on Brother Hornet!
Cobra
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Seeker thats a fun song!! :)
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Grun,
Well I know what you mean when you started this. It has been 2 months now since I left and I flew a vast majority of LW AC only. I think what you are getting at is that a lot of the old timers have left and went to other avenues in search of a possible feeling of satisfaction. What I am getting at is if you are a true historian and you have read countless article's, interviews, plane specs and such they might be getting this let down feeling. This is by no means a whhine and I am sure the "BBS police" will PC the toejam out of this anyway.
Frustration I think is the key, and looking at the setup we have in this game where country balance is split among all the aircraft and not sperated by indivual countries/or allies. You are going to have here numbers games where of course others will fly LW planes, but not the dedication from what we are looking for. I should be flying in a month at most, and I will join right where I left off flying with Wotan and brady in a D-9 for the knights. Something should be looked at to maybe spark the interest of the old flyers to coem back and fly the LW iron again. Best of luck.
AG JV44 Wurger-Staffel
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This is by no means a whhine and I am sure the "BBS police" will PC the toejam out of this anyway.
diddly you.
It may have escaped you that most of the forumn dubbed "BBS police" said the exact same thing you did... but feel free to try to make it sound as if you are about to be persecuted just for your beliefs and nothing else.
I said:
So... my observations:
A group of people tried to achieve a tad bit more historical accuracy by congregating in one country. Frustration seemed to prevail as few others were concerned with bringing the same level of historical accuracy to the MA. People responded to this in different ways. That's it.
You said:
Frustration I think is the key, and looking at the setup we have in this game where country balance is split among all the aircraft and not sperated by indivual countries/or allies. You are going to have here numbers games where of course others will fly LW planes, but not the dedication from what we are looking for.
Time to quit blaming the "BBS police" for what you do or don't say.
AKDejaVu
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Well to speak up or out in here I feel I should at least say why LuftJagerKorps (LJK) broke from AH. We all as a squadron decided that the amount of hours (time) we were putting into the game was not worth it on our financial scale so we made for the door. We did not whine or cry aloud with gnashing of teeth at the FM of the planes as they are probably the most right on I have seen in a flight sim in many years. We quietly folded up shop in AH and moved on to other areas. Some of us left for WW2OL as closed beta testers and a few went to IL-2 as closed beta testers. Right now we have relocated to Wiltz on the WW2OL map and fly from there.
I think what you perceive as a decline in the numbers is a small decrease in the vocal and visible old timers. If I had the money I would be right back here flying my arse off.
Salute goes to Hitech Creations for a fine simulation!
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Why should the people who left in a big hoo-ha be given any more attention? Why should effort be expended in getting them to come back? Why should the fact they flew LW planes be relevant?
They didn't like the game. They stopped playing. They made a song and dance about it. That should be the end of it.
Did HTC's business suffer because of it? Doesn't look that way if you examine MA attendences.
Someone made a point about in-game aliases. I believe this may be true - the shining holy grail that was WW2OL has turned out to be a rusty p*** pot (at least for time being). Some of them probably are back.
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
diddly you.
.....
Time to quit blaming the "BBS police" for what you do or don't say.
AKDejaVu
Where are "UBB-Police" when you need them ?
:D
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Funny, now that I think about it, I realize that I have not flown a single LW aircraft since the rumble.
I am apparently one of those non-dedicated guys that cost the Luftwaffe, er, I mean "Axis", the Rumble.
I mean, heaven forbid that I should feel sorry for the fact that they were having difficulty attracting volunteers. I volunteered and actually showed up. I know I'm not particularly good in LW aircraft, but I did what I could.
You won't find me making that mistake again. I don't much care for being a scapegoat. :mad:
I fly many different aircraft, does that mean that I should be insulted? To be considered "valid" do I need to fly LW or RAF or FAA or USAAF or USN or VVS or RA or IJA or IJN exclusively?
Hardly flying, and poorly at that, I have one or more kills in these aircraft this tour:
A6M5b
F6F-5
Fw190D-9
Ki-61
Lancaster Mk III
Spitfire F.Mk IX
In addition, I have died in the following aircraft without obtaining a single kill:
Bf109G-10
C.202
Fw190A-5
Il-2
Ju88A-4
N1K2-J
P-47D-25
Panzer IV H
Spitfire Mk Vb
Why is it becoming so common to blast others? "You don't fly correctly because you use turn fighters!" "You don't play correctly because you use aircraft from all sorts of origins!"
Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits.
-Mark Twain
My personaly feeling is that many of those vocal backers of LW aircraft that have left did so because they expect to effortlessly wipe out the unclean masses of non-LW aircraft that they perceive as having been grossly inferior.
I personally do not find the LW aircraft in AH to be dramatically more difficult to use, though most of them are somewhat more difficult. The Fw190D-9 is pretty easy though. I do not subscribe to the belief that German aircraft were superior across the board.
My best bomber mission for killing fighters was accomplished in a Ju88A-4, getting two N1K2-Js, one La-7 and one Fw190 (type unknown).
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Originally posted by Staga:
Where are "UBB-Police" when you need them ?
:D
Finland, I guess. :D
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Perk Seeker and Hornet. This squabble has become a slaughter.
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[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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I totally lost it a few months ago and left AH in a hurry, there by screwing over my squadmates in 3./JG2 (sorry) but I had to git so I done got :).
Anyways I'm back and have used nothing but LW aircraft namely the 109F but have recently been on a jagdbomber binge flying the 190F-8 or A8. If anyone wants to grab some fields with these types of birds lemme know I'll wing with ya, right now I just been lone wolfin' it.
(http://members.home.net/winyah999/ProfFate.jpg)
I AM PROFESSOR FATE (http://members.home.net/winyah999/proffate.wav)
7./SG2 'Immelmann'
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Grun; this is not meant as a dig.. not at all.. but bear with me ok?
I miss the old LW contingent too. And it's not because they were 'better' than todays group, it's because there ain't anybody left I can roll my sleeves up with; get nasty with; get seriously angry with and that generally sparks me to a higher degeree of involvement and accomplisment as a result.
I can't fly fer toejam unless I'm REALLY pissed. Sadly; I do miss Hristo. I miss baiting him; I miss hunting him, I miss planning his demise and the resultant embarrasment of all his black shirted little assbite cronies that left to boot.
I tried to hate Santa.. but after talking to him and flying with and against him for awile; I got to like the damn cheeseheaded jerk. Same goes fer you too, Grun; yer a good stick; fight fair, squeak only when kicked and I like yer style. Most of the guys I flew against in the Rumble fit in the same general catagory.. respected adversaries; not hated enemies.
Like Hornet.. almost word for word; my sentiments exactly.. I felt the current LW pilots got a real bad shake from the Rumble.. the stigma for the defeat was not theirs. I wanted Hristo yes; but I did not want to humiliate those axis pilots. So; after the Rumble; I gave him a kick; and the axis pilots a <S!>
So; in answer to yer question Grun; no I think the LW is still here. I think the guys we all loved to hate just left.. leaving very good pilots to fill the roles in those LW planes, but no real dickheaded jack booted hugahunk self-proclaimed leader of idjits harboring a real deep-seated hatred of the good ol USA, apple pie and the sheep next door to take Hristo's place as bellybutton of all Asses.
If nothin else; 'ol Hristo was my alter ego... and a lot of his shortcommings are my own. Without him here to get me fired up; some of the fun went out of it... for me.
For the rest of us; I doubt him or his cronies are much missed. I wish 'em well wherever they may fly; and hope there's somebody like me to give 'em somebody to hate as much as I hated them.
For now.. I salute the current LW... and hope they'll continue to fly the good fight; and leave the hatred where it belongs... buried with the hatchet, 60 years ago.
All in all; friendly rivalry beats the hell outt rabid frothing hatred; any 'ol day. My loss is your gain. :)
<S!>
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With a speech like that from Hangtime I can only spawn one thing in my head to ask:
How the hell did somebody that good with words become an FDB?!?!?!
-SW
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We needed a token putz.
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
I do miss Hristo. I miss baiting him; I miss hunting him, I miss planning his demise and the resultant embarrasment of all his black shirted little assbite cronies that left to boot.
LOL!
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Who says I'm out ?
When I get DSL and flatrate by the end of the year, I am back.
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The LW will be back soon.
With different handles.
Then they will quit again..
Then they will come back.
(with different handles)
Its the endless circle of AH life..
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Time to quit blaming the "BBS police" for what you do or don't say.
AKDejaVu
I see you are still rather easy to get wound up there huh? I think your words fit perfectly coming from your pie hole thats for sure. I did not read this whole thread, but I read Grun's intro. I don't have the time to go and read every line of crap that is spewed on this BBS now "unlike your pasty ass". I think you need to reevaluate your logicical thinking there AKSpock.
Lashing out at others is one thing, but when someone kindly asks for sincere responses you and your adolescent POV have to throw out assinine views. I am sorry Grun he ruined this thread with this crap but his toejam has to stop. This will be my last response to this jacknutt. Oh and AKSpock thanks for the vote I needed that 1 for the popularity contest.
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Mmmmmm, Paaaaasty.
That's one thing I miss from the Midwest. Try it, you'll like it.
PASTY (http://www.pasty.com/)
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A LuftWobble goes into a very pricey clothing store. He walks up to the sales person and asks to see their finest and most expensive suit. The salesperson looks at him astonished and asks why the expensive purchase. The LuftWobble looks the salesperson in the eye and says, "If I'm goink to be impotent, I vant to look impotent too!"
Ahahahaha... yeah it's a bastardized joke. ;)
-SW
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Originally posted by Seeker:
...You could add in the Japanese squads, who, for all I know ritually commit seppuku every time they get shot down with a big red felt tip pen, but they don't come grovelling here about it....
lol that's hilarious imagery. sorry just wanted to add that. nothing else to contribute. :)
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hey karnak,
you didnt cost us the rumble in any way. you flew very well for teh luftwaffe, and were one of the last survivors in one of the farmes if i remember correctly. thanks for stepping up to help out the short handed team . <S>
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G'day all.
While I doubt that myself or any of my squadmates are who you guys have in mind as 'Luftwaffles', KG200 is still very much alive and kicking in AH, and as far as I am aware, we have no real intention of leaving.
I seem to still see a lot of the same 'LW' guys online now as when I first started 12 months ago, and they seem to be as deadly, if not more so than ever before. They may not be roaring and ranting on ch#1 all the time, but they are definately out there proving that no matter how much people squeak and whine about German aircraft performance, it is still very possible to kick arse in one.
Old hands leave in search of new fun, new hands take their places.
We may not openly admit to having fetishes for leather underwear, or type with funny accents, or for that matter, say much on the radio at all, but believe me, there are still plenty of 109s, 190s and Ju88s getting about in the AH skies, a lot of them flown by dedicated LW aircraft jockeys.
Just a a side note, and a fairly irrelevent one...... I was flying in the MA last night, in my Gustav 6, cruising along at about 15k or so, when I saw a P51 at about 18k comeing straight for me, about 5k out. He dives in, blows the HO pass and zooms for another crack at it.....I pretty much did nothing, just avoided his clumsy attempts at B&Z tactics untill he blew his alt and E advantage, then got semi serious and tried to gain a pos on his 6.
It took all of one vertical rolling scissors before I got a quick snapshot off with the MGs.....dunno wether I even pinged him (pretty doubtfull, and pure arse if I did) but this Pony has just gone balls out for the deck, run all the way back to his nearest field, and landed.
Didnt even get a kill, an assist, nothin'....but without a doubt I count that as one of my all time greatest fun fights...he he SCARED the li'l pink tutu off him apparently, 'cause it certainly wasnt damage to his airframe that made him RTB.
The "Luftwaffles" may be a bit thinner on the ground these days, but those Ponies are still RUNNING free ;)
On the other hand, I ran into Eddiek in his Jug a short time later, and in a relatively slow turnfight on the deck, got my arse handed to me in short order.......just like all Allied guys arent chicken, all us 'Luftwaffles' are neither whining, or leaving, just some.
Next time you see a 109 or 190...be afraid....it MAY just be a guy dressed in black leather with a funny accent who doesnt let on :)
<S> Blue
to quote old mate from the bottom of that grave in Saving Private Ryan.....'F**k Hitler!!'
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I don't have the time to go and read every line of crap that is spewed on this BBS now "unlike your pasty ass". I think you need to reevaluate your logicical thinking there AKSpock.
Wow.. hard to argue with someone that uses actually reading a whole thread as an insult.
Maybe its a pretty good idea to actually read the thread before posting like you know what's going on. You won't look like such an bellybutton next time.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Creamo:
Mmmmmm, Paaaaasty.
That's one thing I miss from the Midwest. Try it, you'll like it.
PASTY (http://www.pasty.com/)
What the hell is a pasty? I grew up in Wisconsin and visit there at least once a year, but I've never heard of one. I thought Pasties were what you found covering strippers' nipples! :D
SOB
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he's nothing but an uncouth Dane with yearnings to rekindle ancient Viking desires. These involve crossing the North Sea and molesting innocent English sheep.
And we love it,,,they are so fluuffy.
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Why even get worked up?? its still an fantasy main arena where 109īs and spits fly for the same country,
I could understand this if it was an axis vs allies type of arena, then you guys would have reason to be worried if there where no "LW squads"
Regards.
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Kind of interesting to find nobody else snickers and sneers about other 'role playing' people such as maybe "the 56th", or maybe the "334th" or maybe some other many many squadrons with names and titles that have existed in historical references. :confused: Using the historical squadron names itself is in my opinion another sort of 'role playing'.
Heck, the very essence of our joy within AH playing is itself a subtle yet undeniable "role playing" - we are (whether VIRTUAL or not) akin to thinking ourselves as pilots, try and mimic the maneuvers. We look up texts and historical references, articles.. we look at the pics, the films.. this game is a "simulation" and "simulated combat" itself is 'roleplaying'. If you think you are not associated with the 'role playing' part and are here just to enjoy some fights why not go and play 'Quake'? Or go and try martial arts games? Why is it you people are here to play this specific game that simulates aeroplanes?
Quite simple. We enjoy "playing the role of a fighter pilot" - we're not here to enjoy a role as a martial arts expeert or Rambo type warrior. The only difference between people is whether they enjoy it individually, or they enjoy it with other people of same taste and hobby - hence, some people exclusively fly some planes and form squadrons.
If we were to snicker and sneer at "simulation fetish" "role playing" "make believe", fine, go sneer at yourself in the mirror, or go snicker at those many many many squadrons with historical names and enjoy flying a specific machine.
And please don't go poking into everything you people observe to dig out things to attack people who might not agree with you - and this I mean to both sides of this "Crusade" between the so-so, same ol' same ol' LW people and their usual flamy adversaries. :mad:
You bear a grudge against someone and you just have to say some insensitive sick things to each other? Fine. I can live with that. Heck, I might even enjoy it. But if you must, go find some relevant issue and stop picking on so-so "ya make belive dweebs" stuff. Many people quietly enjoy these sorts of tastes and hobbies and it don't look that good to dig it up and use it for one's own personal vendetta.
ps) Don't go mention about "squeakin" and "whinin", since I've seen a lot of those from both sides.
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As a person who enjoys the main arena, I'd like to see more of the LW back. Sure, I've heard some of their complaints too, and some of them very annoying <- I agree.
But the diversity of many people's differing taste is itself a good thing to enjoy I find. I really dunno if the LW squadrons are really gone or not, but if they are, I find it sad. Even more sad to find some people just can't tell the difference between 'not having good feeling towards the other' and 'wanting them extinct'. :(
If for any reason the LW people are really gone, as another person who enjoys Aces High I wish I'll be able to play with them again soon.
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Originally posted by Kweassa:
Kind of interesting to find nobody else snickers and sneers about other 'role playing' people such as maybe "the 56th", or maybe the "334th" or maybe some other many many squadrons with names and titles that have existed in historical references.
Well, none of the aforementioned squads make a big stink over a percieved exodus of supposed die hard fans a certain air force.
Everytime a LuftWaffle leaves, there's a thread stating that Hauptmann vonDusseldorf is leaving because his wienerschnitzel plane isn't what he thought it would be from reading some books.
The LW are no more or less special than anyone else.
Across all squadrons playing AH there are less "vets" and more "newbies", know what that says to me?
New players are joining up, and this can only be a good thing.
-SW
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The old LW is much superior to the new LW - they've not been bred properly. they've not experienced the exhilirating taste of pure unadulterated continuous victory.
They have't our Preussian heritage - and by GOD, some of the "Jagdgeschwaders" have the NERVE to fly something OTHER than LW birds!
You cannot take a peasant farmer, put him/it in a LW fighter and call it a LW pilot! Becoming one takes many years of intense training, a leather fetish and at least 7-8 pretty dresses. I've seen many socalled "LW pilots" flying wearing allied like clothing - and without their leather g-string/crotch protector.
No. The good old days have passed, and the LW is no more. We now have the...LightWaffle.
Aaah, I remember back in the days when two rottes of grunherzjaegers would descend upon the enemy, and leave the area having shot down everything there, and its reinforcements.
Luckily there are a few of us old dogs out there, keeping up the tradition (and who'd want to miss out on he lederhosen/beer drinking/studded leather g-string initiation process?!?). We all know who we are, so no need to put names on the faces of these heroes of the sky.
Hblair has goty it right; we need new uniforms and more screaming to correct this situation! I shall begin on my new leather dress now! (I also cook, btw).
Now I shall go and let the allies feel my wrath most keenly upon their bodies.
Tremble, feeble opponents; that'lll give you something to do while you die.
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Now the question remains:
Since the LW is kaput, is Santa a mail order bride now?
-SW
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Yes Kweassa, we all role play here by pretending to fly WWII aircraft in air combat.
IMO, some take it way over the edge and beyond just playing a game and pretending to be a real fighter pilot.
Westy
(http://www.townisp.com/~jugdriver/Prank.gif)
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<reads Kweassa’s post>
<takes off leather cap and goggles> ;)
Now repeat after me: “I always wanted to fly since I was kid”
He has a point. I’m a member of VMF-323 and like flying the allied plane set. I’ve been around for about 7 tours now and have gotten to know a lot of names but not all. It doesn’t bother me if someone leaves AH for whatever reason because, just as I did, new players from other SIM’s will take their place. There were a few 109 drivers in FAII’s advanced arena that wouldn’t have any problems shooting me down just as easy here as they did in FA.
Without knowing who the “good” axis pilots were who left and the unknown ones now that fly I can say this. When I show up to a fight there are two icons I dread to see and sets my pucker factor automatically to 7. Yak and 109, those guys scare the crap out of me before a shots even been fired.
Zippatuh
**(and Spit V, but only after I have identified the driver as SirLoin ;) )**
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LOL Hangtime, well said! <S>
For me, the LuftWaffe or LuftWobble or LuftWhine really came to being from relatively a few people. Not to be pointed, but Hristo, Fishu, Ram and StSanta come to mind. :D
I always pretty much respected what ever they had to say and generally they were right, in a fashion, with the statement they were trying to make. The statement was, if not from a narrow and restricted POV, informative.
However; the constant re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-recorded commenting got tiresomely old. :(
Good luck guys, try to find some fun!
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Errr I dont know why but StSanta kind of scares me. I think he really DOES wear the stuff he talks about behind that PC... ;)
I think its to easy to get wrapped up in what is a game ie myself and my 38. Its better to take a step back, fly what you will as best as you can and have fun. The entire online experience should be something enjoyable, not full of stress and RL issues.
xBAT
"Just a flying and uselly dieing but now having more fun."
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Pretty easy target for the more rabid anti anythings in this game.
To people like creamo swulfe and even Hang this is "our" game. "They" can take a flying leap. We will insult them. Imply they are nazis(although some of them had some pretty suspisios opinions of "history") All the remotly pro LW types are routinely and unfairly painted with the brush that only applies to the worst of them.
But the guys that loved the Bf109 and the Fw190 and could make it deadly against any other plane in the arena will be missed. And lots have left dont let these guys fool you. And they left because "THIS IS NOT A GAME FOR YOU" was kicked into thier heads by some real heroes over and over and over till it was clear that the sentiment was official.
When they wanted to atack RAM they did it and do it in language that attacks everyone that shares only one of his traits. They prefer LW aircraft.
So the message is out. And it has had its effect. All that is left is the gloating that is even more distatefull then the act itself was.
But their can be no doubt. That the sentiment expressed by the heros of this tale, is also felt by the people that run the company. And the feeling has rubed off on pilots that dont deserve most of it.
Legitimate concerns about the German AC are flamed in that special way that is reserved for people we hate.
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Fish, is Pongo using Boozonics? or is that just a hard to understand bunch of spewage?
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Damn Pongo that's deep :)
but well thought out and unfortunately true.
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You called me out Pongo... on what I have no idea because it doesn't make any sense to me.
Nor does any of it bear any bit of truth.
The reason those guys left is a simple and obvious reason. They stopped having fun in this game.
I've seen countless people that LOVE Allied aircraft LEAVE because they simply stopped having fun.
There's nothing new here, the only thing that is new is that because we call them LuftWhiners everyone believes that's the reason for them leaving.
Maybe this whole elitist crap that these supposed die hard "LW" vets harbor is the reason for many people's dislike of vocal "LW" types? Or it could be the repitition. There's an error in the 190/109, I have no proof, I have no idea, something's wrong, it must be fixed!!! To that I reply: 'Give me proof or something' To which they reply: 'I just feel somethings wrong'
Well we all know how I *HATE* that people say *FEEL* when it comes to a piece of software. I want data, I want proof. Until then it's just an unsubstantiated whine.
Repeating the same thing over and over and over until I can no longer stand to see those people's handles is NO way to get people on your side.
It's easy to alienate people, and those select "LW" did it all themselves.
-SW
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I don't know Pongo, a lot of the flyers from the allied side of the rumble fly predominantly LW in the MA (some bastards are LW only flyers, pretty much all fly some LW). The problem is from the start there was a group that loudly complained constantly, and happened to be LW flyers. As self proclaimed "true LW flyers", this is the group that has made it somewhat of a taboo.
Certainly they're not the only loud, obnoxious, chalkboard-grating quality irritants, but add on to that being a core LW group it makes the natural reaction everytime you hear LW to roll your eyes and leave. There are plenty of others who fit that category (channel 1 n1k whiners, for instance), except that you don't have the identifying group factor. You'll have a p38 guy, then a spit guy, then a VVS, etc.
So yes, there is a built in bias with a lot of us, but it's a reactionary bias based on 20 months of dribble, hammered in by self-proclaimed LW leaders. How to fix it? If you fly LW, don't whine. The world is not out to nerf the LW planes, it's just very tired of the LW "leaders".
[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: Fatty ]
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Took me a while to read all these posts.......and all I can think of to say is that while the"old" LW contingent may have bugged out, their are still a lot of superb LW sticks out there.
Hblair has always made it clear that he loves the 109, and by God, the guy is damn good in it. Fortunately, he is one of the most level-headed guys I've known in AH, and he is likely just shrugging his shoulders at GRUNHERZ's insinuation and Hristo's blunt comment regarding the Rumble that no capable LW pilots remain. GRUNHERZ, next time ya get in the MA, look up hb and go to the DA........you will find that he is a more then competent 109 stick.
Others come to mind.......last night I watched Regurge take a Dora and drag 6-7 guys all around their own base, eventually killing 5 of them before I managed to come in and get a lucky kill on him.....he had to have been outta fuel, or outta ammo, cause he was on a roll!
As to my opinion on the "exodus" of the old guard LW cadre, RL called and they had to take care of things there first....have had to do that myself from time to time. Some of the posts when they left, however, led me to believe that they had this perception that all LW planes should just wipe the virtual skies of any Allied plane that dared to face them. This is a misconception of history, and of reality. Germany was not the technological leader of the world back in the Second World War. They were ahead in some areas, true, but they lagged far behind in others. All in all, the Axis and Allies, in RL, were pretty much even on the techno side........if not, the Unites States would never have been able to hop the Atlantic to fight in Europe and Africa, 'cause it would have been suicide to attempt to do so. Britain would have fallen, been conquered along with western Europe, and the Soviet Union would have been overrun and capitulated instead of fighting back from the dark ages and pushing the Germans back to Berlin.
In closing, Hornet, Hangtime, and others may not have provided the responses you wanted. I will not either.......you seem to want to know what to do about the (to you) absence of capable/competent LW pilots in AH? First, open your eyes: I have already mentioned names of superb pilots who can be found at the helm of LW planes. The others may have been more fanatical about flying only LW planes, but that does not make them more dangerous than our remaining LW contingent.
Second: Instead of looking to the past and lamenting on what you consider to be an exodus and spewing forth comments of doom for the LW, compliment the guys still here in AH hammering out the kills in 109/190 rides. The guys who left did so for whatever reason, and that is not important. What is important is the guys who stayed and share common interests with you. Quit slapping them in the face with the "LW was much better when (insert game ID) was still here" comments.
[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: eddiek ]
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One of the best explanations of the LW aircraft came from Hristo himself. They are hunters, not fighters. It is my belief that some got so wrapped up in the legend of these planes, they deemed it infalable. That proved not to be the case.
I am an advocate of "the pilot, not the plane". To me, one of the easiest planes to kill is an improperly flown LW aircraft. I specifically hunt for em. On the other hand, one flown as it should be is an enormous threat. It doesn't take long to tell what kind of pilot you are against in an LW aircraft. For example, this tour I am 12/1 against all 109's. 7 of them were G10's. You will rarely see me fighting above 10k. Tell you something?
My point? The LW flyers are still here and of course there are some excellent ones. Some that have left have gone to find that elusive super LW plane of lore. Once they take a good look at themselves they will discover they had it all along.
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::raises hand::
My name is moose. I've been a luftwobble since Tour 8. I don't think I have a problem but my friends and family do and they forced me to come here.
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Luftwaffe fans are still around, but of course there must be a conspiracy to get them out of AH, right?
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Kweassa, people such as you and Bluedog and St. Santa are the anti thesis of the LW clique and all they stand for. You fly your game, with passion and abandon, and blame no one but your self for your failures.
The fact is (and this may be blasphemy to some) that there is not a single correctly modelled plane or vehicle in AH. Ask HTC if they're happy, and have no intentions of further upgrades or releases. However, do we hear of an anti Japanese conspiracy? Do Spit pilots pilory HTC with accounts of inaccuracies? Have you ever heard an Italian accuse HTC, the Arena and all who disagree that a 205 should out turn and out dive a Spit as "out to get them"? *That* is the difference. Does Tac continualy post in drool stained caps wailing about the P38's inconsistencies and claim all who shoot him down would never be able to if only HTC would stop being the FDB's squeak?
I think not.
There *are* issues with the software, some more glaring than others. Nonetheless, has anybody else made a better game?
Part of the romance of the LW is a twisted notion of honour. Honour, which in my book would include strutting away from AH to WWIIOL to see if it has what they consider missing, and then HONURABLY COMING BACK AND SAYING "WELL F*ØCK ME, I'M BACK 'COS NO ONE DOES IT BETTER".
Both Galland and Rall admitted their mistakes, because they were men of honour, not idealogues miles from the front. The virtual LW can learn from the example.
Zip, you're so right about us all being dweeby role players. That's how it should be. Take a look here, you'll find a text Hitech could probably quote verbatim:
http://www.musketeers.org/NICEGUY/Scavenger/scav-lit.html (http://www.musketeers.org/NICEGUY/Scavenger/scav-lit.html)
There IS a large and healthy contingent of AH fliers using German planes. Some band in to squads. Some squads take an historical root.
Some of the historicaly minded take it back to 1928, and walk around muttering about being "stabbed in the back", and of dark forces under the surface of the community "out to get them".
They need help.
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cc Moose, I have 250 kills in LW iron in just the last 2 1/2 tours alone.
No need to raise hands, just enjoying the HTC additions of the likes of the Dora, and still really dig the A8.
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Amen Seeker! Very well said and kudos for finding Scavs well written peice. Pile o'dog pooh on another topic would do well to read it as an example on how to write a tale.
Westy
(and special nod to the 1928 reference. THAT was a bullseye)
[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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hehe...Pongo, maybe you should sober up before posting. So, just to summarize what I got out of your post.
Point 1. The LW pilots who left did so not because they didn't like AH or an aspect of AH, but because of evil people such as Creamo, Swulfe & Hangtime to made them feel unwelcome.
Point 2. People such as the three you mentioned (and surely others who you didn't mention) actually hate LW pilots intensely.
Point 3. During one of RAM's many outbursts and subsequent flaming by others, some of these others (the evil three included) made it clear that they didn't like him and that they didn't like him because he chose to fly LW planes. Perhaps one could summarize from this that the entire problem you describe stems directly from RAM. Thanks a lot RAM! :p
My you LuftWaffles are funny! :D
SOB
BTW...Your mailman is NOT out to get you. He's just delivering your mail!
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To answer the question that is the title of this thread........To Argentina, of course!
Cobra
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Well we all know how I *HATE* that people say *FEEL* when it comes to a piece of software.
Which explains why you ran away the other night at the bar when that attractive woman said she wanted to go back to your place to *feel* your johnson. Fairy! :p
SOB
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SOB, I ran away because she duped me into going back to her place. After she got my pants off and was reaching for my member, you popped out of the closet in all your lard bellybutton glory and scared the crap outta me.
THAT's why I bolted out the door in my birthday suit.
-SW
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LOL! But why'd ya run strait to Deja's house?
SOB
...in stage one of thread hijack.
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The point you evidently missed is that the above mentioned people use the same issues they had with Ram and apply them daily to a whole group of people. Those are the people that this thread is supposed to be discussing.
They constantly(in the case of creamo and sw and others) attribute the behavior of ram to this whole group. No matter the player that raises an issue or even raises thier heads they are painted with the same brush.
They act with intense hatred towards a whole group of people without knowing or caring who might associate them self with that group. It is only identified as LW.
That hatred is an accepted part of our community.
Sorry to break that to you if it makes anyone uncomforable
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Because I saw that big white whale bouncing around behind me, which I knew was you. I knew that you and DJ had a thing for eachother, so I assumed it was the safest place. While you two were busy trying on Santa's new wardrobe of leather thongs, daisy dukes and other assorted edible clothing, I ran out the back and escaped to safety and freedom.
I went back to that potato that tricked me though, tied her up and proceeded to pound a sheep on her bed.
Then I let the sheep have it's way with her, sweet baby jebus was it the most horrifying, yet erotic and stimulating, event that I have ever witnessed.
Shortly thereafter we had a three way orgy and shaved the sheep.
-SW
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Heh "AH-community" sure lives by its reputation :D
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Originally posted by Pongo:
The point you evidently missed is that the above mentioned people use the same issues they had with Ram and apply them daily to a whole group of people. Those are the people that this thread is supposed to be discussing.
They constantly(in the case of creamo and sw and others) attribute the behavior of ram to this whole group. No matter the player that raises an issue or even raises thier heads they are painted with the same brush.
They act with intense hatred towards a whole group of people without knowing or caring who might associate them self with that group. It is only identified as LW.
That hatred is an accepted part of our community.
Sorry to break that to you if it makes anyone uncomforable
That's a big heaping pile of steaming cow pies.
First of all, *I* can't stand the vocal ones that insist somethings wrong but have no proof.
Second of all, *I'm* an equal opportunist hater.
Third of all, I don't suppose you remember back when Hristo and the rest of the LuftWaffle turd burglars decided to label the allies as "opportunists".
You want to label someone, be prepared to be labeled yourself.
I do not associate just anyone that flies GERMAN aircraft with the LuftWhiners. I can pretty much name them off the top of my head.
-SW
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Cool post Seeker. Thanks for putting it up.
Zippatuh
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Originally posted by Pongo:
The point you evidently missed is that the above mentioned people use the same issues they had with Ram and apply them daily to a whole group of people. Those are the people that this thread is supposed to be discussing.
They constantly(in the case of creamo and sw and others) attribute the behavior of ram to this whole group. No matter the player that raises an issue or even raises thier heads they are painted with the same brush.
They act with intense hatred towards a whole group of people without knowing or caring who might associate them self with that group. It is only identified as LW.
That hatred is an accepted part of our community.
Sorry to break that to you if it makes anyone uncomforable
Actually, there wasn't any point missed. I just think you've manufactured this in your head. It can't make me uncomfortable, because I don't believe it to be true.
I called you a funny LuftWaffle. Did you read into that that I hated you and put you in the same category as RAM (who I also don't hate or dislike)?
SOB
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Geez Pongo, the "virtual" basketball I bounced off your head (it's a movie, go rent it for Christ's sake) has effected you somehow. You really believe there is "Hate" online?
Wow.
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All that needs be done is look at seekers post above. The LW clique whines and cries the manly others persevere with substandard modeling.
That stereotype is at the heart of what I am talking about.
People in LA7s whine about nikis all the time on channel one and here.
People in Nikis whine about LA7s
Spit types whine for a 1944 plane
P38 types whine for flaps or robust engines.
Pony drivers whine about this and that.
F4U
People whine about buff guns
The whines come from everywhere. From fans of all types of Aircraft.
The signifigant difference is the comunities response.
I am not saying that the people in question all left for this reason. But it was sure a factor. Who would willingly be identified with this group?
I am not a Luftwhiner because I fly LW AC(I rarely do anymore) Or because I want them changed(dont know anything about it)I am because I point this behavior out. There for time to insult me again. I say to some guys your being mean!
They meanly tell me their not.
I am not defending the conspiracy statements that were made(by one or two guys in 2 years) or the leaving coming back behavior that is kind of comical.
I am saying dont think that the offensive against these guys or anyone stading arround them is without innocent victims or that some of our favorite LW flyers havent felt uncomfortable here because of it.
thats all.
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This thread is quickly turning into a bunch of off the wall conspiracy crap.
Check your heads, no one's out to get you or your people.
It's all in your heads!
-SW
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97
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You ate 97 Chicken Wings for lunch SOB?
Why I am not surprised.
You Fat Bastard... that sometimes gets Drunk from wine coolers.
:)
-SW
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99...I wasn't finished yet. mmmmm
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Believe what ya want Pongo, I still think you're reading too much into it.
Oh, and it's not just LA7 pilots who whine about the Niki. That sissy P38 driver Tac does too! :p
SOB
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Christ, innocent victims? You mean the rest of us, that do actually fly LW without whining? Don't worry about us, we'll be fine.
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Fatty's my hero!
-SW
(who happens to ironically fly GERMAN aircraft)
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Its not a conspiracy SW. No one said it was.
Except you, as is often the case.
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No one said it out right Pongo.
The fact that someone needs to mention people being "anti-LW", that says there's people conspiring against the LuftWaffe.
That is a conspiracy, I called it out and you still insist I am the only one that thinks you guys believe it's a conspiracy.
-SW
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To make LW more attractive we should get the 110 so that LW gets an effective Jabo AC. As it is today they are limited both with regards to buffs and jabos.
People will leave for other games from time to time, and then return to the best when new games have been exploited.
I have been playing ww2ol a lot lately. Not because it is a better flight sim than AH. As a flight sim ww2ol is a joke compared to AH. What ww2ol has is the best tank sim and the combined forces of air, ground and soon sea. That makes for some great variation.
I am sure to return to AH when I get tired of the tank and infantry. However, for the time being its a lot of fun.
If AH shall keep people from leaving they need to develop other arms to be as good as their flight sim part. If they do that I dont think anyone would be leaving. However, I believe AHs scope is being the best flight sim, and leave the other arms for ww2ol and similar. To make other arms as good as the AH flight sim they will need to change their policy quite much. As I have understood Hitech that is not likely.
With regards to the LW crew, I am sure you would see a lot more of them if we had an axis&allie arena. I am one of those who would love that. You would see me in a 109 quite a lot then.
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The whines come from everywhere. From fans of all types of Aircraft.
This is a good argument Pongo. Many people complain and get pissed when they have a bad night.
Unfortunately certain people would not stop the constant arguing, and squeaking about their favorite LW plane being modelled incorrectly. Also, there was the C-Hog argument that went on for way to long. The people who led the charge are no longer here at this point in time or are flying under different handles.
I know that I contributed to the flamefest when certain people would start to complain in the BB. RAM for instance was way out there at the end of his BB squeak sessions...and I just wanted to reach through the computer and strangle the guy because all he was doing was creating a negative atmosphere and stiring up toejam.
My point..and there is one hidden here someplace is that the FEW have fediddleed it up for the rest of the "LW" pilots. It is hard to get over the stereotype that the dearly departed have left you guys so the first instinct is to go for the jugular......
[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: skernsk ]
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Shut up Skernsk....you LW pansy!!
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109F4 driver and proud of it.
I get my "training wheels" off soon and my LW wings are on the way!
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Know what I'd like to see?? Another Rumble.. with Santa, Hblair, Regurge or Grun leading it.. workin up the gruppens, organizing the wing pairs, takin care of the propaganda and bringin us a hell of a fight.
Know what I think?? They'd prolly kick our mamby panzie compacent allied opportunist asses. :)
The current AH LW is not dead.. I think it is, if competently organized to fly this kind of fight, even more dangerous than ever.
I think the current LW pilots have a certain apathy towards the old ones.. and have no intrest in a "hangtime vs hristo" fight w/ all the associated ugly stick hate generated baggage at all.
So..lets get a coupla new CO's; and re-run this thing. I think the hate trip is over.
Fer allied CO, I'd nominate Sancho, Frenchy, Ammo, Thunder, Midnight, Rude, AKNimitz, Nash, Funked, FDski, Mason or Vladd... any of 'em would be better than me.. my war is finished. :)
Should the 'new' LW come out to play; I'm bettin ther'd be hell to pay.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
And of course that would be their own fault, we have Check sixes and Snap shots, not tot mention the Big scenarios...
Mainly the game itself, not talking about events.
Did the Hispanos ever change? how much did other cannons change in comparison to Hispano? flight model issues with some planes?
well.. thats for a brief begining of examples which can cause game get boring.
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Yeah Hangtime, I'd definitely be up for that.
If i had been there for the Rumble you allied nancyboys would have never stood a chance. Mwuhahaha..
109F4 is most underappreciated plane in the game :-) Should be perked.
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I'm so glad... now we can all be freinds again! :D
(http://www.applink.net/thunder/spoof/kiss.jpg)
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please fishu, aces high isnt perfect and im not a cheerleade,r but i see you flying over at ww2ol and id have to say ah is leaps ahead of ww2ol in teh flight department
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Yeah. Ironic huh? WW2O's flight part is a joke but because it is the 109 rules the roost. I imagine that makes it ok for some as the ends justify the means. Does anyone think the LW gang will be as demanding and indignant to get the 109 FM changed to be more realistic? Not on your life.
Westy
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LW term is highly inaccurate in my humble opinion, in describing someone who predominantly flies axis aircraft. 99% of my sorties are in the D9, or any other of the a models fws'in the game. I wouldn't describe myself as an "LW". Always flew the a8 in AW because most shied away from it long ago........wanted the challenge, and have been forever "hooked" by the FW. as for performance of so called LW aircraft versus allied aircraft, they all have good traits and bad, none of them are "uber" in all areas of furballing. Hear a lot of talk about the "weak" cannon in the 109, and 190 etc. Truth be known, if you hit something with the MG/151 cannons it will go down. Yes, the muzzel velocity and firing rate aren't the same as the Hispano etc., but if you hit your target with the 151s' it will go down the same as if you've hit the same target with Hispanos.
Now, as I stated before each craft gives you something that makes it superior to the craft you are engaged with. And that includes any craft you may be flying, german, Italian, allied etc. Use what your craft gives you, speed, rate of climb, turn of maneuver, roll rate etc. don't ask your craft to do something you know dam well it can't do, and know the craft that you are fighting at the moment. Fight your fight, not your opponents, use what your craft gives you, don't ask it to do something it can't, and all will be fine.
Remember, never get mad at your opponent for shooting you down! Get angry at yourself for placing yourself in the postion to be shot down! Your fault, not your opponents. He just took advantage of the postion you placed yourself! :eek:
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Westy...I cannot say or compare ever the WW2OL model to the AH model. I haven't but, what many of us done and have been advocates for the FM change over at WW2OL are from the LW contingent. We do not want in this other game an advantage we want more than anyone else a realistic flight envelope with each of the advantages and disadvantages of each aircraft portrayed in the sim.
The new FM in effect well it'll be awkward for a while until the other effects come in later on. Am not saying it will be perfect but it'll slowly improve and if enough people come with data and to be improved upon, they will and are doing so.
Those guys over there are as dedicated to realism in the same level as the next online sim. These guys don't make consessions to gameplay for the most part.
And the fact as is the LW dominates the air in WW2OL is that most of the better more mature knowledgeable guys fly for the Axis side right now. Maybe, later that will change.
If you by any chance have read my Flight Model thread at the BBS over there , you will read some things that give an unrealistic advantage to the 109 over the spit and vice versa(which are modeled wrong for most of the aircraft).
Most people think that the LW crowd want things to be modeled on their way so it can give us some type of advantage but, it's not that way, we want realism , we don't want unrealistic advantages given to others as well.
After this new patch is released there will be yet another FM revision adding some extra effects to aircraft. So as you see they're really involved into this and dedicated and so am I .
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Excellent Post Hajo!
SALUTE! :)
Thunder
[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: Thunder ]
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Hm, well, I *do* believe that if a known luftwobble brings out an issue, it is more likely to be seen as a whine or a complaint than if some unknown made the same comment - *even* though it is factual. There's been a few threads where there's actually been some data to back claims or assertions up (roll rates, minengeschoss shells to mention two).
Overall, though, I think it comes down to a few problems.
The LW have two really competitive fighters - the D9 and the G10. I don't fly the hunstang so can say little about it, other than I can't hit with its guns. The G10 is a very fine plane with some obvious and glaring drawbacks, such as control lock up at speed, weak elevator authority and whatnot.
I do believe superior skills and experience allows a pilot to survive a 1945-ish environment in a plane that is a) not a turn fighter and b) old-ish.
Anyway, that the LW is lacking some variety in potent planes is one problem. It has a lot of planes, but the planes themselves with the exception of two really aren't that good. Several pilots who fly 'um (Hblair, SWulfe, Regurge, Hajo, Cit, Camo and the Llv34 boys and others) can do great in 'um - but they'll do great in any plane.
So, the issues that bother *me* as a LW guy is the following:
1) Historical accuracy. I like role playing. It's not geeky. it's something we do every day; when we watch tv, when we play a computer game and whatnot. It's not restricted to being pale white geeks playing Dungeons and Dragons. This hitorical interests leads me to want to be part of LW only squad and fight *allies*. This is currently only 50% possible in AH.
2) Planeset. There's a couple of very potent fighters, but then again, these are the two that see any real use in the MA. The LW sorely needs a GOOD jabo; the 1908 as it is is actually a poorer choice for jabo than is the D9 or A8; the A8 carries better guns and has better maneuverability and speed, and the D9 does everything better except it has 4 puny 50kg eggs less. The F8 is a heavy dog with little purpose. of course, i fly it *every time* I go jaboing anyhow - because of historical accuracy :D.
3) The guns. Yes, they didn't have as high a velocity on the rounds as the Allied stuff. They didn't jam as often either. Since jamming isn't modelled, the LW guys are shortchanged on this one. Also, while the hispano get AP/HE/IN in one round, the LW has to do with HE. Or those that argue that it is all three; well, it sure as hell ain't minengeschoss. An argument could also be made that HE would be more efficient against a soft target like a plane, whereas AP wuld continue right through. I've seen demonstration of AP and HE rounds, where they were fred at a building. The AP made a wee little hole, the HE took down a wall.
Also, having to close to 300 or less before guns being effective is a serious drawback; i watched Sancho's Rumble films and was amazed at seeing him opening up at d500 with virtually no lead and still hitting. There's a BIG difference in guns.
4) 1 ping engine outs. Not only the LW guys experience this, and those allies flying the 38 know just what I'm talking about. Extremely annoying
5) Small things, such as "ammo counters". no planes had it during WWII, except LW birds, which didn't have counters, but rather another system that gave the pilot a rough estimate of how much ammo he had left. EAW had it, but HTC have conclusively said that it won't be added to AH. I *really* disagree with this decision, but I suspect it has to do with the fact that were it to change, HTC would have to redo every cockpit to accomodate the changes in a pretty fashion.
And lastly, the 109 vs 109/n1k/f4u thingie.
You'll notice that most of these issues are personal preference. Currently, I am still having fun with AH (although much less because I have NO ONE TO FLY WITH). I *hope* that AH will evolve towards MY personal preferences.
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Obviously some comments here by people who has not used the spit in WW2OL. A good spit pilot will down every 109 in WW2OL as easy as pankake. The spit in WW2OL has a huge advantage in view, and since about all pilots in WW2OL seem to turnfight in a horizontal turn manouver, the experienced pilot will have a ball in WW2OL :)
In addition you can do the most careless manouvers in WW2OL and not worry about spin or stall. That FM is very far from realistic. Its very simplified compared to AH.
If you want to fly a real flight sim, then you fly AH. If you just want some fun and like to shoot easy targets, you may as well fly WW2OL.
LtData out for now :)
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Santa BTW where's my OP Flashpoint :D
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Role Playing: If one wishes to simulate being a Luftwaffe Pilot go ahead! Heck, it's fun! You pay your money just as everyone else does so do what you want. That is one feature of flight sim diversity, and one of the reasons we all are here. We have a fine squad in AH that features P-47s', the 56th FG, if that adds to the enjoyment of AH then by all means use roll playing mode to make it more enjoyable!
I myself, serveral years ago took the name "Hajo". Reason being one would expect someone with that name to appear in the Sim in a LW aircraft. That explains my on-line "persona" nicely. I wouldn't expect someone named Bong to be flying a Macchi 205. StSanta, by his cpid, or nickname I would expect to see in a LW aircraft, Yeager, I would expect to see in a P-51. But that's just how the game is configured in my eyes. Doesn't mean of course that someone else sees it the same way though. We can all, in a somewhat limited manner configure this sim to suit our tastes, without infringing on someones elses idea of what it "should" be. Thats' a great feature of online flight sims. We pay our money, and do what we want with it.
The keyword is "fun". Do what you want to do to make the game more enjoyable to you! If you want to simulate LW squadrons do so! If you want to have an all P-38 squad, P-47 etc do so! Make it fun! It's easy to do, and no one can tell you how you should play. You pay your 30 dollars, do what's fun for you and your squaddies. I would expect all to do the same :cool:
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What Stsanta said!!!!
maik
P.S.: call me if ya need a wingman StSanta
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Ok let me simplify.... What is good for the LW in a game is bad for everyone else and vice versa.
A perfect example, and the REAL reason for the exodus of the worst of the leather fetish phony nazi crybabies is... the change to a more realistic FM from 1.03... Yep that's pretty much how it goes.... The LW planes were as apache says, hunters (and as st santa says long in the toth hunters at that).
Face it... LW planes are not good low level dogfiters for the vast majority of players but....In 1.03 all the planes were mired in muck and unable to avoid the B&z of even the clumsy LW aircraft.
The real pain in the butt, arrogant bragart faux nazi's were so thick that they needed to divide some of their squads in half cause they were so full... their incessant bragging about how "skilled" they were pissed people off who knew what the difference.
When 1.04 came and with it a much more realistic FM, the lufwhiners went from arrogant to full blown crybabie.... Their precious master race aircraft no longer performed like the romance novels and pap biographies they read themselves to sleep with... they countered with.... Loud screams and threats to hold their breath till they turned blue.... Their "facts" about LW planes consisted of embarassing myth and outright bogus information (the electrically fired LW guns were the least reliable ignition system in WWII and .50's had a true jam rate of like 1 round in 5,000 for instance).
I suppose we all roleplay to a certain extent but I have never felt I was a marine pilot in WWII while virtually flying an AH corsair... I have never felt that I was any kind of pilot while flying any plane in AH... Flight sims are more challenging and comples than first person shooters is all.
I think taking real WWII personas is insulting to those brave men.... I especially think that taking on a LW persona is insulting, distasteful and.... cowardly. Yep, most of the real LW is dead or VERY quite... Those who would pretend to be affilated with them in a parody of the real LW do so knowing that no one will slap them down for their blasphemy.... I think the allied gus are allmost as silly but they know that they better use a little restraint.
If you are one of the quiet ones who likes to fly LW ac and doesn't role play in a distasteful and childish way then most of the things I, or others have said in this thread do not apply.
lazs
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CC Hajo good posts. I think we have two different discussions going here by several parties.
Some are talking about people who fly predominately one nationality of aircraft. Another (ME) are talking about a sub group of those who are radicval and base most of their complaints on thier percieved favorite aircrafts shortcomins on conspiracy, another aircrafts attitributes and historical anecdotes from Uncle Hanz. IMO the term is for someone who struts around the text buffer online or in the forumns like a little Goering blaming everything and everyone else for thier problems; "laser hispanos" "b29 laser ranging buff guns" being just two examples. It's when the role playing stops being a role or thier real life personality, with thier bigotry and racism, show through that it becomes a problem. And that has happened several times here, in AW and in WB's over the years.
Fokker, the Spit has .303's not 20mm cannon so the 109E outguns them all right now. Sure, a good pilot can get kills in a Spit, they can get kills in anything. But that goes for anywhere be it there, here, WB, AW or FA. And given the lack of a six view in WW2O the favourite to bet on is the experienced boom &zoom player. Will have to see what they do to the FM but tweaking somehting so far out in left field doesn't make me think it'll be drastically changed. Just that, tweaked. They have to fill that customer base and it won't be done by tryint to appeal to the grognards and realism cravers that's for sure.
Glasses, I saw your post there. Well written and articulate. (A rarity on those boards actually) Sad to say I can't say the same for alot of the respondants to you but, hey, it is the WW2O boards, no? :) My point on that was I do not see Fishu, Hristu, RAM, Staga, Jekyll (especially Jekyll for some reason. he was such a thorn here (*many* good points but he went so sour) but he lets WW2O slide. lol. oh wait. It's in beta <eye roll> ) or the many other players who were so adamant and vocal here, doing the same there or on any of the other WW2O oriented boards, at all. I do not think CRS is as dedicated to realism as many of it's fan base think they are. The numbers online over there have dropped through to the basement and if you took a sampling of those online and on the webboards you'll find they want fun over function. Sure some want realism. To them I <S> and say Happy dreams. but they are the very, very small minority there. And they need several tens of thousands/b] of customers to make that work. There's already been consessions and there will be more. I can guarantee it.
StSanta, we ALL have wishes for more planes and more than not most uf us want more from every nationality. Other wise I'ld say you have a good list of issues to be looked at by HTC, just as many other flyers of specific planes do. But the LW primary Jabo, the 190-F8 "is a heavy dog with little purpose." Wasn' it that in real life?? Where as the P-47 and P-38 were born interceptors and fighters turned Jabo was not the 190-F8 built specifically to be a Jabo? More armour etc etc?? Maybe Kurt should have copied the P-35 and not the Hughes H1 ;)
But as for the guns? Of course Sancho can nail someone at the range he did even if you percieve no effort on his part to do so. That's kind of a "diss" at the guy when he's been flying the P-47 here for at least a year and he damn well should be able to tell when and how far to shoot at a bogy with those far reaching .50's If you want neutered guns for playability then WB's and WW2O is for you ("you" being anyone who wants "play" over real not you StSanta specifically). In these games/sims we all have an unbelievable advantage in being able to re-fly every time we get shot down or crash. Each flight and every pull of the trigger we learn and improve. When I fly the Yak I have to close to less than 300 to pull the trigger. I like 100-200 maximum, because it has a small ammo load, I only have one cannon and the MG's are worhtless. You don't see me or other Yak flyers squeaking. It's reality. Just deal with it. Same with those who fly the Zeke and Macchi 202. As for the type of ammo being used? Keep working at it if it's such an ussue for you untill you get an answer or a change from HTC. Squeeky wheel gets the grease. Just don't squeek in an irritating or obnixious manner as that won't get the desired results at all for sure.
The one ping engine out? I agree. Happens with other planes too but with the 190 it seems a given that is what will happen. My goal to fly the 190 last tour went to hell when I found that ack and other guns give too quick of a sudden stop to that prop up front. It is as bad as the glass elevator on the P-38. I do not wish to fly either till those are fixed. But thier are plenty of planes to try and use....
Anyway, enough from me this a.m. Damn wall o'text.
Westy
[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Quit whining StSanta! LuftWhiner.
SOB
:p
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eddiek, do I make this check out to "ed" or "eddie" khuen?
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
please fishu, aces high isnt perfect and im not a cheerleade,r but i see you flying over at ww2ol and id have to say ah is leaps ahead of ww2ol in teh flight department
Krhm, I havent been playing WWII OL for at least two weeks (thats when I got OFP)
I did also got bored to AH long time before I had a chance to get my hands on WWII OL, so your point is unvalid here since WWII OL has not changed my opinions towards AH in any manner, nor have I used it to compare with AH.
(I haven't played AH for at least half an year, thats way before I got to try WWII OL)
If we go into comparison, then I'd have to say that WWII OL has some good things that AH does not have and doesn't seem to ever have.
Also Mo has stated that flight model isn't yet done in WWII OL, so I'll wait with final judgement.
Good thing is that there seems to be different stall behavior for the planes and 109 actually has the slats.
In AH, every plane tends to stall same, but at different speeds and different stick force... which has been bugging me since the begining.
like 109 stalls like other planes, just at different speed and with more nose heavyness than others. (and its highly hyped slats are hyped to make stalls different)
imho, I liked more of 1.03 FM than current, at least then E fightning was more crucial, although, overmodelled.
Now I feel it slightly bit too relaxed.
Again if we go in comparison with WWII OL, I like the way how fights are fought close in, rather than from at 800 yards AH/WB/DOA/AW style.
So im wishing for flight models to get better in WWII OL, it would be really that what I'd like - close in fights with 'pea shots'
although, lets note again that I got bored to AH already months ago, before WWII OL had any meaning to me and even after WWII OL, I still have same reasons for AHs boredom.
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In HS three pilots of 9/JG54, got a total of 34 kills (I think) participating in a grand total of 9 frames flown by them three.
I dont know how many kills got the rest of the squad,AFAIK there are quite a lot, but I dont know exactly how many. Still, those three got 34. In 9 frames. Against a more numerous enemy. This is not to brag, just to illustrate what I think.
Two of them are out of AH at this moment, the third is still here because his prettythang is to heavy to be moved elsewhere ;). Now no pun intended to the LW dedicated guys in AH, but I cant think of anyone else flying LW iron as skilled as the ones who made of those planes such killing machines during more than 18 months.
The point is that the people I saw as the elite of LW planes in AH, is gone. Kirin. Hasqueak. Hazed (The things this guy could do with a Ju88 were amazing). Glasses.VoX. Nath. Wilbus. Naudet...and a long etcetera.
Mind you, there are new sticks and I'm sure many of them will grow to be great virtual pilots. But the elite is gone, at least is how I see it. The quality of the guys who have gone is enormous.
As for the personal attacks and the sistematic anti-LW campaign, it is clear that the untolerant people are the ones who "dominate" the voice of this community.
I wont repeat what I've said a lot of times already because there is no reason to do it, and it wont solve anything anyway. But the fact remains that there is a collective of paying AH customers with a preferences for a determinate nationality of planes, namely the German. That collective is repeatedly,sistematically insulted, and treated like toejam just because they like what they like and they want to feel something more than a furball game, they want to fly in a realistic environment where they represent the Luftwaffe. For that they are called everything ranging from LuftWhiner to Nazis.
The attacks wich that people suffer from some individuals are something noone can excuse. Yet this thread shows that INDEED the community here excuse it. And supports the offensive individuals. So be it...but then dont feel insulted when people says out there that this community is a rough one and a very unpolite one. With the rudeness one can feel in this board, where rarely you can find a single thread without a personal attack, that fame is well earned.
Regards.
[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Hblair is.
And I've yet to hear a sour complaint from him, in over a year and a half.
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"But the elite is gone..."
A legend in his own mind.
Do ego's really grow that big in Europe or is it an aquired cultural thing?
Westy
[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Originally posted by Fatty:
Hblair is.
And I've yet to hear a sour complaint from him, in over a year and a half.
FROM him?, wtf has that to do with what I'm saying?...I say that people gets insulted here because they like to fly LW, and I can give you links to threads where his affiliation to LW was enough for someone to insult him.
"But the elite is gone..."
A legend in his own mind.
Do ego's really grow that big Europe or is it an aquired cultural thing?
The LW elite is gone. Like it or not. Show me three guys flying in the same squad who gets the success 9/JG54 had in HS,34 kills in 9 flown frames, for 2 deaths, and then I'll say that the elite are THEM.
Anyway that was just my view. I've known many people who were real demons in a 109 or 190 in AH. Some are still here. Most of them are out. Extract your own conclussions. But if you say that people like NathBDP, Santa, Kirin, Habicht, Wilbus, et all, do NOT represent the best bunch of virtual LW pilots
who has ever flown in AH (and IMO the best overall,LW or not LW aswell) then you are plain blind.
This has nothing to do with egos, but with factual data. Take a look at the K/D ratios owned by the people I've named when they were flying in AH and tell me they are not highly skilled pilots. Granted, some of the "old guard" LW aces are here. Most of the Assassins, with Hblair at the head...but the major part is gone.
[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Ram, there is not a systematic persecution of german flyers. There is however a systematic ridicule of silly elitism and incessant whining.
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Originally posted by Fatty:
Ram, there is not a systematic persecution of german flyers.
I disagree and I think I'm not the only one. But there is no use in discussing it all over again. It would be no good.
Regarding what you call "the silly elitism", why is silly?. What if some people wants to take this game seriously?. Does that make him silly?. Why?.
Of course I can remind you that LW squads are not the only ones who tend towards elitism. Curious thing is that the others do not get the protagonism while the LW ones do.
Well, better leave this where it is. As I said further discussion would mean no good.
[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Funny, I've never, ever been confronted by it. Perhaps I'm not flying german planes the correct way?
Maybe you could show me? Because I feel left out, not being persecuted and all.
As far as silly elitism, I would think stomping off in a huffy and hanging around trying to make that out to be the community's loss would qualify quite nicely.
[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: Fatty ]
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But if you say that people like NathBDP, Santa, Kirin, Habicht, Wilbus, et all, do NOT represent the best bunch of virtual LW pilots
in AH (and IMO of AH aswell) then you are plain blind.
I must be blind. I aint seen them in months.
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try this: open an account in AH under another handle so noone knows you are fatty. Then get into a dedicated LW squad. Then come to the board with your signature showing clearly you are in a LW squad and that you are a LW dedicated pilot.
Finally, go to the Aircraft and vehicles forum and start a thread saying that something in any of the german planes is not right.
Wanna bet a pack of six beers that the word "luftwhiner" comes up at least twice in that thread?. If I were you, I won't bet ;)
[edit] Creamo once again you show me that my english sucks :D. Edited the post so it reflexes what I think, said it poorly before :)[/edit]
[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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I must base this assumption regarding the planes on feel, right? Or am I allowed to actually back it up with facts (as was actually done in the roll rate thread, resulting in taking it seriously).
Must I foam at the mouth and scream hispano as loud as I can? Do I have to remember to include the niki in the allied conspiracy list?
Do I need to talk badly of everyone's flying style who doesn't treat each virtual life as if the fate of Germany rested upon it?
Oh dear, there I go mocking again.
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Ram,
Its very difficult to argue against someone saying that we all think LW pilots are like you when you seem to think you represent all LW pilots. You do not.
The type of plane you fly or the squad you are in has nothing to do with your reception in the arena or on the boards (with the exception of the FDPs). About the only plane choice you can make that seems to really brand you these days is Spit, N1K2 or F4u-1C. Really... all the dweeb planes seem to have been determined by LW pilots. Quite ironic.
Nobody here cares that people have 20 character "von" titles in front of their names in this forum. The only time people speak up, is when the person wearing the title seems to think it means something.
AKDejaVu
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ouch.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Ram,
Its very difficult to argue against someone saying that we all think LW pilots are like you when you seem to think you represent all LW pilots. You do not.
When did I say I do represent somebody?. And much less a whole collective!.
Please dont put words nor intentions in my name because ,far from representing any collective in AH, I'm away from it. It would be hard to represent anyone flying and paying for AH when I dont and I dont plan to do it in the foreseeable future.
What is me, I dont have the desire nor intention to represent amybody.Maybe my squadron yes, but not a whole collective on AH. Far from my intentions.
Nobody here cares that people have 20 character "von" titles in front of their names in this forum. The only time people speak up, is when the person wearing the title seems to think it means something.
AKDejaVu
That is false, plain and simple. To fly LW, being a dedicated LW pilot and being in a dedicated LW squad gives you instantly the award of "luftwaffe pilot", wich in this community has a very very dangerous and distasteful consequence: you are about to enter the "luftWhiner" club. Any mention in the boards or online regarding the "hot" elements of AH (being those the N1K2, the hispanos, etc) will give you the present of being under suspect. And if you insist, that will instantly sign your enter into the said club.
And waht you say about "The only time people speak up, is when the person wearing the title seems to think it means something" pretty much shows what I say.
When I fly a sim dont intend to be a german pilot trying to save my nation from bombing; nor I want to defend the fatherland from the red menace, etc etc etc. I want to have fun flying LW planes, using LW tactics, and under a LW squad name. But that is all.
There are lots of dedicated pilots flying LW planes, who say they fly LW, and do it as I do. What I dont know is SOMEONE who flies like you say: thinking that by flying LW he is instantly an uber-ace or something. I could fly a Spitfire in a RAF squad, and I'd want just the same realism: I would like to use real tactics in realistic environments. The only reason I don't is because I like the german planes (and I hate the spits ;)). But granted, that If I was on the other side of the fence, being an anti LW individual instead a Pro-LW, I'm sure I would be not as bad seen as I am.
Oh, and Indeed I DO want realism, historical matches and an HA; as many of the people who like LW planes do (and as many who dont fly LW do aswell). But that doesnt mean that each time I fly a Fw190 I think I'm in 1944, or I am something special... for heavens sake, that is NOT true.
But some people,as yourself, think it is true, and awards that "feeling" to someone dedicaded LW pilot. So, indeed you show that you have a PREJUICE against us: we are "all wearing a title as if it meant something". lol. I never gave myself a title for flying a 190, yet you seem to think I do.
In short, you give me the reason. Indeed THERE IS A PREJUICE against dedicated LW pilots. What is notable is the resistance to admit it by some people here...
[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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I dont see LW vpilots going away, only few of them, anything but a representative portion of LW flyers. What I see is a representative portion of "old" LW pilots going away, but the total number keeps more or less the same.
The overal quality of LW flyers keeps also the same, there is a bunch of fine "converted" pilots here.
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You are wrong RAM. It is the whining.
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hehe
One of my earliest memories of AH was Fatty kicking the snot outta 8-10 of us at sea level in his German iron. He finally would run out of ammo and get killed (mainly because he didn't wish to waste the time to RTB I imagine, but you have to ask him about that).
I remember Fishu ruling the roost in the A8. We had met in DoA (where I flew the DVa - German - almost exclusively). He was forming a LW squad and asked if I would join (based on his perception of my preference of aircraft I suppose). I kindly declined because I avoid squads for the most part (life too busy).
I remember getting another request from Ripsnort when he was flying JG2. Again, I kindly rejected the offer.
Hblair was someone I met in the ACA of WB. He was hot there, and he is hot here.
I could go on, but let me get to the point; many of us who are/were not considered "LW elite" in fact do/did enjoy the LW planes of AH very much, and even do/did quite well in them.
But as far as LWhiners go...
The "LWhiner" thing is a reaction to an incessant complaint about anything in the game that disadvantaged the LW. What this clique failed to realize is there are discrepancies enough for all sides. It was elevated to legendary proportions by a selected few LW posters.
Fishu should not be included in the LW whiner thing IMHO as he tends to try to test things out before he comments. Sure, he complained about the LW planes, but he also complained about other a/c as well, and not just so the LW would be even better.
On the whole though I believe I prefer St.Santa to all of 'em. I think he has this thing figured out despite having a perverted psuedo-life thingy going on.
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ram said... "That collective is repeatedly,sistematically insulted, and treated like toejam
just because they like what they like and they want to feel something more than a
furball game, they want to fly in a realistic environment where they represent the
Luftwaffe. For that they are called everything ranging from LuftWhiner to Nazis."
whaaa??? They want to fly in a realistic environment and be big bad LW but htey don't want to be called nazi's? didn't everyone who flew against WWII LW call em nazi's? It is the same ol crap with some of the luftwhinners.... they are big bad arrogant black hat dark side macho men when things are going their way (unrealistic) but they cry like little girls when things get more realistic than the "I killed for Hitler" romance novels they read themselves to sleep by.
As for the "elite"... they may be elite in a set piece scenario (one wonders if they would do as well if they switched back and forth between allied and axis in the same scenario) but... All I know about is the arena. the so called "elite" that I met were Ok... they were talented but nothing special. I have seen many that were much more talented in the arena. Many that are very talented in the arena can fly any plane and don't just stick to the one trick ponies.
Affiliate yourself with one side... limit yourself to one countries planes and try to force everyone to fly in a manner you deem "realistic".... I can't think of a better formula for eventually feeling picked on and for getting a bad case of burnout.
lazs
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Lazs said it fairly roughly, but he knows what he's talking about.
DJV, Creamo and Fatty pretty much said what I would have.
Kieren got it too.
As I said to Grunherz, there is no conspiracy theory against your fabled LW planes. It's all in your head and you are making it out to seem like the world is against you.
Sorry, but what angst is here against the "LW pilots" is here because of you and self-proclaimed 'LW elite' people like you RAM.
The current LW players more than make up for the loss of the select vocal LW. The current LW players not be good right now, but they will be better than the ones that left in no time flat.
Then when they come back in a huff with you leading them like the head honcho whino RAM, everyone will say "LuftWho?"
-SW
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Ram just couldnt stay out of it eh...
If you make statements that read like there is a conspiracy to get rid of the elite LW pilots then dont be suprised when people take you to task for:
Thinking there are conspiracies at work here..
And that you are a member of some kind of elite...
Dont you feel the least bit responsible for creating the enviroment that led to this? How do you hope to fix the issue with more of the same noncence?
Your own arguments are too easy to refute and they are in a tone that validates the assault against you.
And you insist on saying that any attack against you is an attack against all that fly LW iron.
The fact that you have never been successful in getting changes made to the game does not mean that there is a conspiracy. Just that you suck at making a good case for what you want. The way you do it draws critism till the argument is about you not your point.
This pattern has repeated over and over. But its not a conspiracy its just baggage of your past threads and rants.
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Wow, hadn't read this one for a few days. All-time classics from Pongo and Lazs. You guys summed some thoughts up very neatly there.
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"In fact, if enough of 'em go, I'd be tempted to try a butcher bird myself; once the risk of being mistaken for Luftwaffe was gone.
So the Luftwaffe are leaving. Good. I'm quite shocked any sim would want such a bunch of persistantly whining, detail obsessed piss-poor sports men.
Hopefully, that'll leave the virtual skies free for fliers who appreciate fine machines for what they are, and leave their jackboots on the ground.
"
This is posted for Fatty.
Note the generalisation.
Note the hatred.
Note the Nazi refrence.
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That's One.
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If you fly LW stuff, your a whining limp whistle.
I hate everyone.
Hitler had a poop fetish.
That's 2.
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Ya. Its one. But hundereds of people read it and never even commented on the rediculousnes of it. Fatty and yourself and SW read it and vehimetly denied the existance of such an attitude. It is accepted for normal and healthy by this comunity.
Its interesting that the only player with most of the criteria you people attribute to the avagage LW pilot is in fact Citabria/Fester.
He has most of it.
arogance, name changeing, ranting,complaints or observations about ac modeling. No title but the vast majority of the most hardcore LW fans never did that either. He defiatly has the opertunistic hunter skill. But seeker is comfortable flying with his fellow bish Citabria..why is that. Certaily he has a better fit with the despised attributes than most any LW pilot that ever played the game.
What is different?
Well hes a bishop..and that is definatly part of it most of the rabid members of this crowd are bish. His posts are ususally informative not accusitory. I think a case could be made that he deserves the derision of the same people that seem to think that Grun deserves to be run out of town though.
Im not saying that Cit is like Ram. Of course he is not. But he is a good match for your target group.
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It is accepted for normal and healthy by this comunity.
This is what I disagree with. That you seem to think that the entire community thinks it's good to hate someone because they fly German aircraft. I think you're wrong.
As for Citabria, I currently hold him with less regard than any "LuftWaffle" I can think of. Not sure how someone can so completely lose control of themselves and thier actions just because of being killed in a game. Maybe he's finally figured it out as "Fester"...I'll believe it when I haven't seen him go crazy on the open channel for a year or so.
Grun I like. He's not a LuftWaffle. He got kicked out of that club after he flew his 1000th N1K2 sortie! Plus he's can take toejam without getting all huffy. I think he'd make a great FDB, if it weren't for that leather fetish and those silly gerbils he's always toting around with him. Plus, he'd probably serve a lifetime in the latrines for his past whines. :)
Hell I like RAM too...he just needs to grow up a little.
It's Creamo I hate, and I feel that the community as a whole should back me up on this.
SOB
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Pongo, I'm not a bish.....
The MOL rotate.
And yes, the hatred of whiney paranoid people who take on the jackboot persona is real.
It has nothing to do with what they fly, as in this thread and others you'll good people come forward and say they fly German planes and love them, it has everything to do with an attitude that can ask "Where have the LW gone?" when the arena is well populated with German planes, and the Rumble was well attended. It has everything to do with an attitude that says the "real" or "expert" LW don't fly here any longer, it has everything to do with an attitude that says modelng errors or defieciencies in German planes are the result of a anti LW conspiracy, while errors in other planes are glossed over.
Now, you're quick to point out logical errors in my posts but I'm sure you'll agree with this:
All planes have errors accross the range of model types and nationalities.
and
Only German planes have an identifiable clique accusing all and sundry of various dark motives to explain those errors.
As my logic is faulty, perhaps you can tell my why those two statements hang together.
As for the "Citibra factor"; he's a perfect counterpoint to my posts. He's often an amazinhunk, but he's a non aligned one, wouldn't you say? He'll squeak about every thing. Gunman26 is another case in point. Again, a prime amazinhunk, and a Spit driver to boot! The point being there's a difference between being an individual amazinhunk, and joining the amazinhunk league of friends.
In short, it's a group of people who consistently refuse to acknowledge the simple fact that they're killed by pilots not planes, and use every excuse possible to explain their failures; astonishingly enough irregardless of their personal score. I've just read a post where in which a luftwhiner whines about LW arms and then goes on to boast about his unbroken 59 kill streak.
Most people I know would give their left nut to fly like that. But not this guy. He might have made it 60 if there wasn't such an obvious anti-LW slant to the gun/ammo/damage/atmospheric fish constant in the AH software.
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You think there's a group of people out there attempting to take down the group of LuftWaffles? That's a conspiracy by definition.
Good lord, there's a conspiracy in cyber space against a cyber group of cyber people playing a cyber game!
Woooweeee!
-SW
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I am not a LW bigot... ask anyone... I am an equal opportunity hater. I hate the sissy boy hunter runner p51 guys and bombers and GV sissies and... but. the LW are much easier to lump together since there are so many of em and they have such a huge share of arrogant morons and crybabies that are willing to affiliate themselves with a LW only virtual persona.
betcha a lot of people feel that way.... betcha that's whats going on here eh?
lazs
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Originally posted by Seeker:
I've just read a post where in which a luftwhiner whines about LW arms and then goes on to boast about his unbroken 59 kill streak.
..but I got 278 kills in one plane... isn't his streak still missing one digit? ;)
:p
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As I said, Fishu, I don't consider you a LWhiner at all. :) More often I have heard you extoll the virtues of aircraft the select few have deemed "misrepresented". The kill streak you mention was done in the 190A8- supposedly the worst plane in the game at the time. You are a great pilot and incredible shot but even you couldn't have run up a score like that if the plane was as awful as we are lead to believe by some.
The complaints you had most frequently were concerning the Hispanos (and there are plenty of non-LW guys who would agree with much of the arguments), the way stall is handled, and other such noncountry-specific type issues. Sure, you flew mostly LW, but that doesn't make you a LWhiner. Personally, I think Seeker nailed it on the head. Anyone arrogant enough to say "Where has the AH Luftwaffe gone?" has the problem.
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SW. Are you a distant relative of Joe Macarthy? really your a troubled silly man that hides behind your vocal majority wispering foul things about others cause you just want to lash out.
This is the guy that sets the moral tone for our game.
Many people stated that the attitude openly expressed in seekers post didnt exist. I drag your eyes up to the evidence the you can not apperently see for yourself and suddenly I am complaining about a conspiracy.
Seeker. Be more specific with your hatred. People whom you dont really intend it for will take you at your word and feel it because they fly german AC.
You all think you can pour on the hate at a broadly defined group and that people that identify themselves with that group will have the back ground to know you dont mean them. Your wrong.
I entered this thread cause I thought behavior like this might has some part in awswering GHs question. I still think that. I dont think it is the overwhelming part. But I think it is a part.
I am not denying the behavior of the few that lead to these stereo types. I dont like their behavior any more then many of you.
Obviosly I have received no (usefull)support for this position here. I have recieved a little support for it on private channel in the MA. That I am thankful for.
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You haven't received any support because you make me sound coherent when Im 3 pitchers of screwdrivers into thinking I have something deep to say.
Meds Pongo, Meds.
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Well creamo. It had to happen eventually. We disagree about something.
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That wasn't deep, see? Meds are good! :)
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sissy boy hunter runner p51 guys
Quit your whinin!
:D
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Originally posted by Pongo:
SW. Are you a distant relative of Joe Macarthy? really your a troubled silly man that hides behind your vocal majority wispering foul things about others cause you just want to lash out.
This is the guy that sets the moral tone for our game.
Many people stated that the attitude openly expressed in seekers post didnt exist. I drag your eyes up to the evidence the you can not apperently see for yourself and suddenly I am complaining about a conspiracy.
Seeker. Be more specific with your hatred. People whom you dont really intend it for will take you at your word and feel it because they fly german AC.
You all think you can pour on the hate at a broadly defined group and that people that identify themselves with that group will have the back ground to know you dont mean them. Your wrong.
I entered this thread cause I thought behavior like this might has some part in awswering GHs question. I still think that. I dont think it is the overwhelming part. But I think it is a part.
I am not denying the behavior of the few that lead to these stereo types. I dont like their behavior any more then many of you.
Obviosly I have received no (usefull)support for this position here. I have recieved a little support for it on private channel in the MA. That I am thankful for.
Hello, this is Earth... how are you doing today?
-SW
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Well you got me with that one.
LOL
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Ah, Im happy. Your happy.
Now, lets go to the WWIIOL boards and be mad as hell!
1.2 or else! Or, I'll do the thing with the Japansese red magic marker someone was so brilliant to goof on... lol
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Despite repeatedly pointing it out, you refuse to see it for yourself.
You know what though? I will comment on that thing you said about Fatty's comment.
I saw a generalization, after close to 9 months of dealing with RAM and the rest of his now defunct crew that are over in WW2Ol or wherever else... well it's quite easy to see why Fatty would never want to be associated with that crowd. Fatty said clearly that he's glad they are leaving, because normal LW players will no longer be associated with that crowd.
Quoted from Fatty:
"I'm quite shocked any sim would want such a bunch of persistantly whining, detail obsessed piss-poor sports men."
Hmmm, truth must hurt. You dig up the threads by RAM and his whining cronies. Not a lick of proof for all their complaints about the small stuff.
Quoted from Fatty:
"Hopefully, that'll leave the virtual skies free for fliers who appreciate fine machines for what they are, and leave their jackboots on the ground."
I can see where he's going with this one. Now people can freely fly the fine German machines without being associated with the crew that surrounded those planes with so much disgust and annoyance.
AH has become a friendlier environment for the most part now that the LWhiners are gone and some may still be contemplating/threatening to leave if some minor detail isn't fixed.
There's LW and then there's the LWhiners.
Everyone knows there's a distinct difference, and if you don't then you haven't been paying attention for the past year.
To say that there is a group of people out there to destroy the LW and their aircraft inside this game is so insanely ludicrous, that only the most extreme LWhiners believe it.
-SW
[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Pongo,
if you can bear to read my stuff again, you'll find numerous references to lot's of people flying German planes and liking them, you'll find me saluting a few by name who consistently whack me, you'll find the odd posting in other threads from me asking for advice because I can't fly German planes worth a dam, etc, etc. (I believe one such post was specificaly addressed to you and ZeZausage, pointing out the differences bewtween a fine pilot flying German and a typical Luftwhiner who can't fly worth a left handed wank).
You wouldn't be feeling a bit defensive because you fear being tarred with the same brush, would you?
You're not. It takes more than an affinity with German planes to be a Luftwhiner, hence this thread, "Where has the AH Luftwaffe gone".
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SW are you quoting fatty or seeker. I was quoting Seeker directing the quote to Fatty.
"To say that there is a group of people out there to destroy the LW and their aircraft inside this game is so insanely ludicrous, that only the most extreme LWhiners believe it.
"
I am not sure what you mean. Do you think I am saying that? I am not. I am saying that people treat issues concerning German AC as if Ram raised every one of them. And that a reasonable person might feel they were being attacked when these attacks are made against such a broad group.
Now I see that infact the definition of who is attacked this way is very narrow. Are we so sure this is clear to all who read them?
To clerify it for you SW. A conspiracy is not merely some group behaving in a united way or for a common purpose. A conspiracy I believe involves the secret agreement to do so. I dont think that there is a conspiracy here. I think some of you just enjoy behaving that way and you cant stand to think it might have a negative effect beyond the person that you are baiting.
It is funny to read all the incredulous denials from the perps though.
Seeker why would I be worried about being included in your hate group? I have few if any of the charecteristics that you use to classify its members. I fly few LW aircraft and none well. I have no aggenda to improve the LW aircraft, I dont change my name or give myself any rank in the game.
My crime here is that think your behaving badly. And I think that enought people behaving badly like you do is kinda distastfull and has a negative effect on the comunity. Since the negative effect is one that you eveidently desire I doubt you will aggree with me. But thanks for keeping me off your list for now.
I will admit in all frankness that as much of the negative conotation of flying LW aircraft was created by some of the people flying them as has been created by the bashers. I just wish we could move beyond the whole sorry mess.
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Well I think it's obvious that people DO treat every issue with German AC as if RAM raised them for one sole solitary purpose: Lack of proof. It happens with all the planes where an issue is brought up or an error is believed to exist. It isn't just those LW planes.
Notice the roll rate thread, proof was brought to the debating table and people took it as an issue.
The Mauser debate about the D9 guns being somehow broken was refuted because no proof was brought to the table.
Other than that I have no idea what other issues were brought up with German aircraft that were debated, but I can pretty much assume there was no proof otherwise people would of subsided and a real discussion could of ensued.
It isn't just the "LW" planes that are being scrutinized, it's anything that doesn't have data or proof of an error brought to the table.
You wonder why it looks like only the LW is being scrutinized and their claims refuted? It's because you are viewing it from the LW point of view.
The fact of the matter is, I'm an equal opportunist hater. I don't like anyone that views things from only their point of view or to their benefit.
If the "LWhiner" comment hits too close to home, maybe it isn't the comment that bites but somewhere in your subconscious you, yourself, believes this to be true?
-SW
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<adds Pongo to "The List">
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I've never considered quitting nor felt abused based on the quaker label, nor ho dweeb, nor spit dweeb, nor chog dweeb, nor niki dweeb. If someone whines a lot and flies mostly LW planes, then luftwhiner fits, plain and simple. If someone flies a p51 in orbit, only to run off at the first sign of a reverse, then runstang fits, plain and simple. When I fly the IL2, HO dweeb fits.
Believe me, if I had a catchy nickname for p38 drivers that whine too much about the niki, I would have applied it to DZCamp and Tac a long time ago.
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SW are you quoting fatty or seeker. I was quoting Seeker directing the quote to Fatty
Let me quote Fatty's quote of Seeker for Pongo, which SW responded too, and SOB didn't say much but R4metzass read and told Wilbus, who as the leader of the LW tards and emailed Bistro's bank manager, who in fact is AKDvu's cousins sister.
Meds you tard, MEDS!
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You wonder why it looks like only the LW is being scrutinized and their claims refuted? It's because you are viewing it from the LW point of view.
The fact of the matter is, I'm an equal opportunist hater. I don't like anyone that views things from only their point of view or to their benefit.
What kinda a crap did you just spew out? Lad sounds like you ought to be telling a shrink what your problem is with people not us, seriously bud get some help.
[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: Professor Fate ]
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lol im a whiner now... because i suggest ideas? haha sure thing fatty :)
let me guess you read the x-plane posts and have a bias against me now? ;)
as for n1ks whatever... hehe they are easy to fly .. too easy :) and they are easy to kill with a little thought.
Look at my kills aginst them in my 51 :D
Ho, dont Ho who cares.. fly n1k dont fly n1k who cares :D
look for a challenge when flying... or dont :D
wow this post is long... is it a record holder for replies?
anyway <S> anyway ;)
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lol seeker talking about pilot skills........ :)
I've had a look at his scores he aint worth a toejam in any plane.... :)
which is really irrelevant if hes havin fun but seems to me he enjoys more the skill he has developed at being an a**hole then anything else.........
what the heck its his 30 bucks......... :)
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I will clarify what I was saying because you missed it Prof Fate... well maybe you just didn't understand the context.
This whole thread is about a select few LW. They come here touting their superiority crap and how their aircraft are all being oppressed by some unknown/unseen/unheard-of group of people.
My point is that if you view this issue or other issues from only one point of view, of course it's going to be distorted and against your point of view. I don't like people that take only half of a discussion then twist it around to make it out like their a martyr and the other side is the bad guy.
As for the shrink comment, kiss my ass.
-SW
[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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prof fate,
He's simply trying to say that the LW enthusiasts get the same consideration when it comes to "issues" with the game. Anybody that thinks their favorite ride is screwed without having any data to back it up gets labeled a whiner.
As for the shrink part... I thought we weren't supposed to say that? Seems half the bbs jumped on wulfie last time he said something like that to someone else. Maybe there are double standards afterall.
AKDejaVu
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we can't tell someone they need to see a shrink?
hmm.. strange
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Maybe its only Wulfie that can't tell someone they need a shrink.
AKDejaVu
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I think that we all get crazy sometimes and maybe need to talk to someone about it ;) Shrink or no shrink
yes/no?
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What are meds?
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No offense, but from what I've read of your posts is that you 'hate' and 'can't stand it', it has become personal. No need to clarify your position about anything you have said it quite well time and time again.
No problem with me if someone simple wants to say his concerns with certain issues, heck so many do it here but the vast majority do it with class and taste. The outbursts then the constant back peddling of oh this is what I really mean't or someone else trying to explain what he really means gets old.
some of you present yourselves as little children constantly bickering and crying for attention GROW UP and HAVE FUN.
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I'm an FW pilot and a 109 pilot. I fly LW aircraft about +50% of the time. Sometimes I'll fly LW for an entire tour exclusively. :)
-- senna of BKs