Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Scherf on October 23, 2011, 12:19:08 AM
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One for the US iron Experten here, I'm out of my depth on this, for a variety of reasons.
I'm translating a passage by a German night-fighter who was transferred to the East in mid-44 to combat Russian and UK attacks on cities in what was (for a little while longer) still East Prussia.
He says the Russians were using twin-engine American bombers, which he identifies as "Douglas B-23s". Can"t be right, I think.
Is he likely to actually be referring to Mitchells, or Havocs, or something else?
All info gratefully received. I may leave the original text intact, with an author"s note in brackets....
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Typo.
No B-23s left the U.S. nor served overseas in any capacity. Only 58 were built.
wrongway
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likely he means B-25's, or possibly B-26's, though I'm unsure of this.
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scherf,
if he got the Douglas part correct then I'd bet he meant A20 havocs because the B25 was built by North American.
hope that helps
:salute
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very interesting, just goes to show how easily misidentification occurred...
b-23 profile
(http://aviarmor.net/aww2/_photo_aircraft/f_usa/Douglas%20B-23%20Dragon/b-23a_color.jpg)
a-20 profile
(http://www.savagesquadron.com/SUpage/SUBombers/A_20-1.jpg)
b-25 profile
(http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Mitchell_B-25J_Russian_profile.jpg)
don't think there would be any way to mistake a b-25 for a b-23 though...
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Typo.
No B-23s left the U.S. nor served overseas in any capacity. Only 58 were built.
wrongway
But what if America secretly gave Russia the rights & schematics to produce B-23s?
Thought i'd throw that out there.
Is there any russian bombers that could be mistaken for a b23? (especially with that nose)
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But what if America secretly gave Russia the rights & schematics to produce B-23s?
Thought i'd throw that out there.
Is there any russian bombers that could be mistaken for a b23? (especially with that nose)
SB2? (http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Images/2-Airplanes/Allies/2-USSR/04-Bombers/Tu-SB-2/p1.jpg)
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But what if America secretly gave Russia the rights & schematics to produce B-23s?
Thought i'd throw that out there.
Is there any russian bombers that could be mistaken for a b23? (especially with that nose)
never happened. but it is possible an actual russian built bomber was misidentified as an american...considering the pilot in question was used to spotting bombers at night, it's easy to believe he wasn't absolutely sure.
sb-2m/100/103
(http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Images/2-Airplanes/Allies/2-USSR/04-Bombers/Tu-SB-2M-103/p1.jpg)
maybe a db3-m
(http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Images/2-Airplanes/Allies/2-USSR/04-Bombers/DB-3M-87A/p1.jpg)
il4 maybe
(http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Images/2-Airplanes/Allies/2-USSR/04-Bombers/Il-4/p1.jpg)
doubt a tb-7
(http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Images/2-Airplanes/Allies/2-USSR/04-Bombers/TB-7/p1.jpg)
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Its not likely the B-23 went overseas, if you notice the B-23 has a .50 cal machine gun in the tail, in which very few russian bombers had a tail gun.
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Well, it was night, and the guy was likely doing 350+. Can't blame him for misidentification.
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2900 A20's (B,G,H) were operated by the Russians...... at least two Russian Bomber regiments operated B25's but they were so unhappy with them in 41/42 I cant see the B25's still in use in 44.
IL4 seems the best bet for confusion with the b23
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TB-3 served at least untill 1943, and I think upto 1945.
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As the B-23 never served I find it highly unlikely a German pilot would be aware of what it looked like in order to misidentify a Russian aircraft as a B-23. Far more likely and the simpler explanation is that there was a typo or other such error.
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As the B-23 never served I find it highly unlikely a German pilot would be aware of what it looked like in order to misidentify a Russian aircraft as a B-23. Far more likely and the simpler explanation is that there was a typo or other such error.
karnak...
(http://www.ibhistorytopics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/spy-vs-spy.jpg)
the 3rd reich had a lot of intel on u.s. war planes...english speaking germans did operate in the u.s. and britain.
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karnak...
(http://www.ibhistorytopics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/spy-vs-spy.jpg)
the 3rd reich had a lot of intel on u.s. war planes...english speaking germans did operate in the u.s. and britain.
That is irrelevant. That Germany may have known of the B-23 does not translate to a line fighter pilot memorizing an aircraft he has never seen. It is still the much less likely cause of the text than a typo or mental hiccup.
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That is irrelevant. That Germany may have known of the B-23 does not translate to a line fighter pilot memorizing an aircraft he has never seen. It is still the much less likely cause of the text than a typo or mental hiccup.
it's not even close to irrelevant. pilots were given aircraft identification manuals to memorize and in many cases the manuals were wrong. in the field updates in the form of written descriptions, diagrams and sometimes photos were sent to squadrons from high command so the line pilots had the intel.
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it's not even close to irrelevant. pilots were given aircraft identification manuals to memorize and in many cases the manuals were wrong. in the field updates in the form of written descriptions, diagrams and sometimes photos were sent to squadrons from high command so the line pilots had the intel.
Yes, but he probably isn't going to ID a A-20, DB-3 or B-25 as a B-23. Occam's Razor states that the simplest explanation is usually correct and that is a simple typo or brian hiccup.
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It is simpler than you think - the Douglas DB-73 "Bank" was the export version of the B-25 that was delivered to the Russians.
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It is simpler than you think - the Douglas DB-73 "Bank" was the export version of the B-25 that was delivered to the Russians.
Interesting,I was going to tell Scherf that the A20 was also known as DB-7 and now we have a Douglas DB-73 to add to the confussion. Scherf any mention of the tail configuration? That might help sove the mystery.
:salute
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It is simpler than you think - the Douglas DB-73 "Bank" was the export version of the B-25 that was delivered to the Russians.
Well, since the B-25 was manufactured by North American and not Douglas, you are wrong, sir. :headscratch:
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I think I may have cracked it. Tracked down my man on the Tony Woods lists - found the night in question, he did indeed put in three claims near Tilsit, for TB-3s!
Must be a "march of time" issue - remembered differently for some reason. The contemporary records say it wasn't US-built aircraft at all....
Many thanks for the help gents, sorry for any trouble caused / time consumed.
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I think I may have cracked it. Tracked down my man on the Tony Woods lists - found the night in question, he did indeed put in three claims near Tilsit, for TB-3s!
Must be a "march of time" issue - remembered differently for some reason. The contemporary records say it wasn't US-built aircraft at all....
Many thanks for the help gents, sorry for any trouble caused / time consumed.
:huh :confused: :uhoh TB-3s!???!?
(http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Images/2-Airplanes/Allies/2-USSR/04-Bombers/TB-3/p1.jpg)
(http://www.aviapress.com/engl/icm/icm72091.jpg)
How much was he drinkin'?
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Well, since the B-25 was manufactured by North American and not Douglas, you are wrong, sir. :headscratch:
Found it here:
http://www.harpoondatabases.com/Encyclopedia/Entry2058.aspx (http://www.harpoondatabases.com/Encyclopedia/Entry2058.aspx)
Note the picture of B-25s with russian markings and the title "Douglas DB-73 Bank". Maybe Douglas got a contract to build the export version of the B-25?? It isn't unprecedented for one aircraft maker to do production runs on anothers design.
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Bah. DB-3s.
Actually, 2 DB-3s and a PS-84, whatever that is.
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Wow, that TB-3 is so cool looking! It's almost like a steam punk aircraft.
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Wow, that TB-3 is so cool looking! It's almost like a steam punk aircraft.
Can we have that instead of the Meteor?
No, really!
- oldman
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I want this:
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9076/wierdplanefu0.jpg)
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Bah. DB-3s.
Actually, 2 DB-3s and a PS-84, whatever that is.
Ooooh, ooh... close to finding the answer to all your questions, you are.
(http://www.vectorsite.net/avc47_2.html)
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Found it here:
http://www.harpoondatabases.com/Encyclopedia/Entry2058.aspx (http://www.harpoondatabases.com/Encyclopedia/Entry2058.aspx)
Note the picture of B-25s with russian markings and the title "Douglas DB-73 Bank". Maybe Douglas got a contract to build the export version of the B-25?? It isn't unprecedented for one aircraft maker to do production runs on anothers design.
i dont know if that site knows anything about the B-25 even in their literature they state "the Douglas DB-73 was an export version of the DOUGLAS B-25 Mitchell. To my knowledge Douglas never made the B-25 even under contract :headscratch:
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i dont know if that site knows anything about the B-25 even in their literature they state "the Douglas DB-73 was an export version of the DOUGLAS B-25 Mitchell. To my knowledge Douglas never made the B-25 even under contract :headscratch:
You are right - that other site is full of it on the DB-73 --- however, I did find a translation at lend-lease.ru on the B-25 in russian service:
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/akvilyanov/index.htm
It seems we did export the B-25 to the Russians.
There IS a DB-73 reference as well, but it is for a french designation for the DB-7B (Boston) made to French Specs:
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_douglas_DB-7_France.html
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Okay Tb-3 is classy as all hell. Its got that boxy Cadillac convertible look.
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You are right - that other site is full of it on the DB-73 --- however, I did find a translation at lend-lease.ru on the B-25 in russian service:
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/akvilyanov/index.htm
It seems we did export the B-25 to the Russians.
There IS a DB-73 reference as well, but it is for a french designation for the DB-7B (Boston) made to French Specs:
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_douglas_DB-7_France.html
Lots of 25s from C models to J models. All glass nosed versions that I am aware of.
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He says the Russians were using twin-engine American bombers, Is he likely to actually be referring to Mitchells, or Havocs, or something else?
Else. :D
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Li2.jpg)
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Lend Lease B-25s were used by the Soviets right untill the end of the war and thats not at all surprising as it was a very robust design and and all round great medium bomber. Over 800 were delivered of all types. It would not have been unusual at all for the Luftwaffe to have encountered them in 1944. That being said many first hand accounts of combat fliers are filled with errors. Sometimes they misidentified aircraft and/or used incorrect names or designations for them so you always have to take that into account. Enemy combat planes did not have nice neat labels on them that included sub variant info.
Did the pilot really engage a B-25? who knows. From the sounds of it I would say he encountered a twin engined bomber of some type and incorrectly referred to it as a B-23. Either as a typo or mistake of identification. Many western types were sent to Russia and the Luftwaffe didnt know in advance every possible variant they might see so misidentification would have been commonplace especially in the midst of combat.