Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Scherf on October 26, 2011, 11:21:07 PM
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Rumour going about that the 50mm BK is verboten. Vicious lies and innuendo from the Yak Mafia or true?
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Rumour going about that the 50mm BK is verboten. Vicious lies and innuendo from the Yak Mafia or true?
Unknown. Years ago Pyro expressed concern to me that if the Mosquito FB.Mk XVIII were added the performance of the Mosquito coupled with the Molins 57mm gun would lead to bombers being sniped from beyond the range at which they could reply.
Go Me410!
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If it was used in WWII I see no reason why we should not get it.
Unknown. Years ago Pyro expressed concern to me that if the Mosquito FB.Mk XVIII were added the performance of the Mosquito coupled with the Molins 57mm gun would lead to bombers being sniped from beyond the range at which they could reply.
Why not just perk it?
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Unknown. Years ago Pyro expressed concern to me that if the Mosquito FB.Mk XVIII were added the performance of the Mosquito coupled with the Molins 57mm gun would lead to bombers being sniped from beyond the range at which they could reply.
There is already a 75mm airborne gun in the game. The 57mm would be exactly the same except that the 7 and 5 figures are switched.
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The B-25H doesn't have the performance to be a threat to bombers though. The Mossie does and the 57mm would be more accurate too. Although personally I can't see why you'd need the 57mm anyway, if you can't kill a bomber with four nose mounted Hispanos there is something wrong with your gunnery. If I was a buff pilot the Mossie buff killer I'd be more worried about is the Mk 30. That still has the four Hispanos but has similar two stage Merlins to the Mossie Mk XVI bomber.
I recall reading somewhere that the 50mm on the 410 was considered a bit of a failure as an anti-buff gun though. It was intended to be able to shoot down bombers from outside their guns' effective range. However its effective range was not much better than the 20 or 30 mm guns and it had a slow rate of fire.
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Not to mention the limitations of weight, performance and ammo carried.
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I can't see why you'd need the 57mm anyway, if you can't kill a bomber with four nose mounted Hispanos there is something wrong with your gunnery.
Because you can use that same gunnery to kill from further out.
The arguments against these cannons probably don't apply. The aim in AH is nothing as spoiled by all of those factors in reality like turbulence etc.
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Unknown. Years ago Pyro expressed concern to me that if the Mosquito FB.Mk XVIII were added the performance of the Mosquito coupled with the Molins 57mm gun would lead to bombers being sniped from beyond the range at which they could reply.
Go Me410!
Bombers and weapons only going in one direction seems pretty normal. I seem to recall something about fighters for defense. :devil
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And the Pyro rumour is false if it's the same as the old one. Krusty repeated it a few years ago and Pyro all but explicitly said it was false - asked Krusty or anyone to show a quote backing it up and no one could.
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Shemp claims that the 410 can do 385mph with the 50mm mounted, info or intox?
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And the Pyro rumour is false if it's the same as the old one. Krusty repeated it a few years ago and Pyro all but explicitly said it was false - asked Krusty or anyone to show a quote backing it up and no one could.
Looking into it at the time, going from memory now, I believe there was a logical leap that if the molins was rejected, the larger BK5 would be rejected also, and somehow over the years perception came to be. Pyro wasn't really denying the subject matter, just that he had openly said something about it. The mystery persists.
I think the times and the environment have changed. If you recall before AH2, AH1 gunnery had a hit bubble (HTC denied this term, but whatever you want to call it) where 1.2k kills were the norm in every fight with Hispanos. Now we have much more realistic gunnery and I don't think they'd have as many issues as before.
Just my guess.
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If we get 50mm 410, then we must get Bf 110G-4a/R1 with 3.7cm and the other planes that used this gun.
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Shemp claims that the 410 can do 385mph with the 50mm mounted, info or intox?
I think I posted in some of the last threads the exact speed penalties for each loadout. 385 sounds like peak TAS, at altitude, and clean. IIRC the big gun was a pretty big penalty, so I don't think 385 level is gonna happen with it.
Based on historical records anyway.
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Shemp claims that the 410 can do 385mph with the 50mm mounted, info or intox?
The top speed clean was 388 (some say that's with racks, making 395-ish more accurate), and the BK5 removes 15km/h of top speed due to the drag from the barrel. Not much, at 9mph. This is because it was internal. It was, however, very heavy. It would affect handling and climb rate, for sure.
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If we get 50mm 410, then we must get Bf 110G-4a/R1 with 3.7cm and the other planes that used this gun.
I don't think it ever carried such a gun.
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See Rule #4
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January 43, first delivery of 110's with Flak 18 BK 3.7
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(http://i3.tinypic.com/2q1rwwg.jpg)
(http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2756/g2r5ep4.jpg)
(http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9968/bk375kv2ni5.jpg)
(http://i18.tinypic.com/40fuo44.jpg)
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380mph + big gun = perked!
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January 43, first delivery of 110's with Flak 18 BK 3.7
Okay, let me go back and say I didn't think about what I was typing clearly. Had I looked it over I'm sure I would have instantly spotted the flaw, and I can see why you replied as such. You're right.
What I *meant* to say (my mistake) was that it didn't carry them operationally other than a small number in service tests.
This heavily armed Bf 110 variant was trialed both for gound attack duties on the Eastern Front and in daylight battles against USAAF bombing raids without enjoying any major success in either role! Evaluation involving several aircraft was carried by the Versuchskommando für Panzerkämpfung (anti-tank trials unit) at Rechlin and moving to Russia for field evaluation in April 1943. The evaluation was apparently not favourable for this version and it was then turned over to Erprobungskommando 25 for evaluation against USAAF bombers. The top speed was found to be only slightly higher than that of the B-17s and B-24s and lateral stability was poor which impared the aiming. A total of 43 G-3 and 107 G-2 airframes were scheduled for modification but only a handful have been confirmed as being accepted by ZG76 early in 1944. ("Messerschmitt Bf 110", Ron Mackay, Crowood, Page 121) With the advent of the USAAF long-range fighter escort in 1944 this weapons combination became obsolete over night as the Bf 110s now became the hunted rather than the hunter. A number of Bf 110s were equipped as here with a Flak 18 gun and W.Gr. mortars under the wings!
From Falke Eins
http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/01/bf-110-g-with-37mm-flak-18-cannon.html
EDIT: For those that skim, here's a key point: "A total of 43 G-3 and 107 G-2 airframes were scheduled for modification but only a handful have been confirmed as being accepted by ZG76 early in 1944."
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It's not verboten at all and I don't have a reason at this time not to include it as a loadout option. I could be mistaken but I don't recall commenting on it. I've commented on the Mosquito XVIII but that's a different case, and even then it was never taken off the table.
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i'm kinda hoping the bk5 doesn't get added if the me410 makes it into the lineup.
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There are arguments for and against it. If you've tried to take out bombers with slow-firing guns (P-39s, Yak9Ts, basically) you know how bad it is to get a perfect aim with such a slow rate of fire. I think, personally, that the 2x Mk103 loadout would be even more lethal. I think for fun the multi 20mm loads would be best (strafing, general HOing hehehe). Once I was against the BK5 like you are, but over time I came to see it's probably not going to be a game breaking weapons system.
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The Me410B-2/U2 top speed is listed at 388 mph with cruise at 325. Armed with 4xMG151/20 and 4xMG131 of which 2 were mounted in the barbettes.
The Me410B-2/U4 top speed is listed at 370 mph, cruise at 325 still. Armament identical except for the removal of two MG151/20 in favor of the Bk5.
Both types are powered by the DB603L and the B-2/U2 was a few mph faster than the B-2/R types, the R5 doing 380 and R3 386.
As a comparison, the Me410A-1 max speed was 375 mph and cruise 315, powered by the DB603A.
I'm unable to verify the above data so if anyone believe they have more accurate figures or access to original test data please correct as needed.
B-2 types forward armament:
R3 - MG151/20 x 2, MK103 x 2, MG131 x 2
R5 - MG151/20 x 6, MG131 x 2
U2 - MG151/20 x 4, MG131 x 2
U4 - MG151/20 x 2, MG131 x 2, Bk5
Personally I would think the R5 to be the most useful bomber killer but in AH who knows?
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i'm kinda hoping the bk5 doesn't get added if the me410 makes it into the lineup.
The variant with the BK5 loadout is not nearly any sort of game changer much like the b25H wasn't.
In other sims, it is routinely passed over for 110g so I don't think it's presence would unbalance an arena.
It would be cool to see some variants of the JU88 added.
HTC would have to add two Ju88 base variants and use different loadouts to closely approximate almost the entire ju88 line.
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The Me410B-2/U2 top speed is listed at 388 mph with cruise at 325. Armed with 4xMG151/20 and 4xMG131 of which 2 were mounted in the barbettes.
The Me410B-2/U4 top speed is listed at 370 mph, cruise at 325 still. Armament identical except for the removal of two MG151/20 in favor of the Bk5.
Both types are powered by the DB603L and the B-2/U2 was a few mph faster than the B-2/R types, the R5 doing 380 and R3 386.
As a comparison, the Me410A-1 max speed was 375 mph and cruise 315, powered by the DB603A.
I'm unable to verify the above data so if anyone believe they have more accurate figures or access to original test data please correct as needed.
It's inaccurate. The 410A with DB603A engines had a top speed of 388mph (oft cited). The 410B had the same engines, and the same airframe. It was planned as a version that would utilize the DB603G (not L) but this engine was not built until AFTER the cancellation of the 410 program, so all the 410Bs had the exact same engine installed as the previous version, or in other words the DB603A. Some had the DB603Aa, which had a slightly elevated FTH but otherwise was very similar.
It's also not very cut and dried with the R4 U4 etc designations. These are often attributed after the fact and are not always trustworthy, especially if your reference says it used any engine other than a DB603A. That's the litmus test. If it says any other engine, keep looking.
P.S. The internal gunpods removed only 2km/h because they were just that -- internal. Same way the outboard 30mm on a Fw190A8 only loses 1 mph of top speed.
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i'm finding a lot of referencing to the me-410b models using the db603g engines, not the db603l.
The variant with the BK5 loadout is not nearly any sort of game changer much like the b25H wasn't.
In other sims, it is routinely passed over for 110g.
honestly icepac, where did i say anything about "game changer"? from what i've been able to find, the bk5 caused so many issues it was replaced by twin mk103s before the 410b series even went production.
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The 50mm wouldn't be used for just buff hunting though, as we all know. I, personally, would use it to kill tanks as well. If you can do it with the Yak 9T's 37mm gun, you should be able to do it with the 410's 50mm gun. At the very least (for me anyways), it would be fun to try and you can be guaranteed that it will kill M3's, M8's and M18's nicely. :devil
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That might depend on whether the shell is AP or HE modeling.
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Even the HE might be able to break through thinner upper decking on many tanks. Like how the 75mm on B-25H can do so sometimes.
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Like how the 75mm on B-25H can do so sometimes.
It can do it consistently...the pilot on the other hand.
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And the Pyro rumour is false if it's the same as the old one. Krusty repeated it a few years ago and Pyro all but explicitly said it was false - asked Krusty or anyone to show a quote backing it up and no one could.
The Pyro comment I referred to he made to me in a phone conversation I had with him during the time when the Spitfires were being updated.
As he noted in this thread, it was a concern he brought up, not a "Not going to happen".
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It's not verboten at all and I don't have a reason at this time not to include it as a loadout option. I could be mistaken but I don't recall commenting on it. I've commented on the Mosquito XVIII but that's a different case, and even then it was never taken off the table.
Thanks Pyro, much appreciated.
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Oh the fun I am going to have with that 50mm.... :joystick: :x :devil
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Once I was against the [...] like you are, but over time I came to see it's probably not going to be a game breaking weapons system.
Eh.
The 50mm wouldn't be used for just buff hunting though, as we all know. I, personally, would use it to kill tanks as well. If you can do it with the Yak 9T's 37mm gun, you should be able to do it with the 410's 50mm gun. At the very least (for me anyways), it would be fun to try and you can be guaranteed that it will kill M3's, M8's and M18's nicely. :devil
Deacking too. If it gets the same much longer bullet lifetime that largest calibers do, e.g. Flakpanzer 37mm, B-25H 75-er
The B25H unchallenged makes for basically an orbital strike deacking machine if you can manage the aim.
The Pyro comment I referred to he made to me in a phone conversation I had with him during the time when the Spitfires were being updated.
As he noted in this thread, it was a concern he brought up, not a "Not going to happen".
So that's what it was. The one thread that people referenced/quoted multiple times without you or anyone adding to was one where like I said Krusty brings it up saying "verboten", and Pyro shows up asking "where'd I say that? Show me a quote".
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The variant with the BK5 loadout is not nearly any sort of game changer much like the b25H wasn't.
In other sims, it is routinely passed over for 110g so I don't think it's presence would unbalance an arena.
It would be cool to see some variants of the JU88 added.
HTC would have to add two Ju88 base variants and use different loadouts to closely approximate almost the entire ju88 line.
I'm wondering if in this other sim that certain 110's are modeled with GM-1 boost? that would be the only reason to choose the 110 over the 410 to get the extra performance at high alt with the GM-1. I suppose it would also depend on what weapons were available on what A/C as well.
The 110 with the 37mm was capable of carrying 60+ rounds that the rear gunner could load as needed! That would make it the premiere tank killer in game I would think.
YMMV.
:salute
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Would the 3.7 be that effective against our GVs? I dunno what its performance is like.
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The 3,7 was the Ju87G's anti-tank gun, Moot. Same gun.
Only, when used on the 110, it was loaded with HE (naturally, as the target was bombers, not tanks).
EDIT: As a side note, I used to go offline drone hunting in WB with the Ju-87G... It was very hard to aim those things against a bomber!
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Preformance would be simmilar to the NS 37 on Il-2, or quite superior if they decide to give it PzGr 40 ammunition.
Either way, I would LOVE this 110 variant. It would be a reasonable substitution for the Hs 129 in a Kursk scenario. Would prefer the Hs because it would (hopefully) get a 75mm firing AP, and the 30mm Mk 103.
Eventually i would enjoy seeing both.
To the Me 410 w/ BK 5: Try sniping bombers with the 75mm offline. Its very difficult to get a hit, and usually you miss by quite a large margine. Granted the BK 5 would have a higer ROF, a gentle turn would still be plenty to throw his aim off.
Edit: krusty, can you show any evidence that they were never issued some AP ammunition? USA never manufactured HE rounds for the M1 57mm, yet they issued some rounds they had accuired from the british. Its possible the 110 crews were given some AP ammunition as well.
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Offline drones are harder because they are turning on a track. If your target was flying straight you only have to mentally compute the drop at distance, rather than the lead. It would make it easier, I think.
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Either way, I would LOVE this 110 variant. It would be a reasonable substitution for the Hs 129 in a Kursk scenario. Would prefer the Hs because it would (hopefully) get a 75mm firing AP, and the 30mm Mk 103.
See this post on page 2 of this thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,322613.msg4210401.html#msg4210401
Also, the 75mm was very rare on the Hs129. You can read this in the Hs129 thread, which you replied in recently. The normal solution on the Hs was the 30mm Mk103. That would still be effective, though.
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The 110's were "tested" against ground targets,ie tanks, but the type was found unsatisfactorily for whatever reason and the Stukas took over the duty.
Moot,the 37mm had tungsten core ammo,useless against bombers but on par with the 37mm on the Il2,depending on sources!
My point was that the 110 with the 37mm carried over 60 rounds,3 times the ammo of the Il2 or Stuka with 37mm guns :devil or the Bk5 and 6 pounder!
:salute
edit,my mistake the NS37 actually carries more rounds.... :o but I think the single BK3.7 would have a longer firing time.
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Il-2 carries 50 rounds per 37mm gun.
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LOl you caught me before I could edit and correct my mistake! :aok
:salute
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edit,my mistake the NS37 actually carries more rounds.... :o but I think the single BK3.7 would have a longer firing time.
Hand loaded, I'd bet so
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Hand loaded, I'd bet so
The gunner carried 5 extra clips,IIRC they came in 12 round clips. Theres a pic in this thread that shows how the ammo was stored!
as the clip was expended the gunner would load another. So maybe to model correctly you could fire 12 rounds,slight delay then have 12 more,etc.
:salute
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The gunner carried 5 extra clips,IIRC they came in 12 round clips. Theres a pic in this thread that shows how the ammo was stored!
as the clip was expended the gunner would load another. So maybe to model correctly you could fire 12 rounds,slight delay then have 12 more,etc.
:salute
My only problem with the whole slight delay to reload, is there are certain aircraft which used drums like the He-111 would require a reload after expending so much ammo. I don't think this would fit will with the buff community who would be on a terror after learning we get big guns and they get a reload time.
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I'm loving all this 410 talk, can't wait to actually fly one in the game :rock :x
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My only problem with the whole slight delay to reload, is there are certain aircraft which used drums like the He-111 would require a reload after expending so much ammo. I don't think this would fit will with the buff community who would be on a terror after learning we get big guns and they get a reload time.
Yes and the 110c ingame does same thing and has no delay, I beleive the wirb worked the same way also.
:salute