Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rude on July 17, 2001, 12:43:00 PM
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Heyas!
Just wanted to ask if any of you AH vets felt the change in the arena the last couple of months.
I realize that many new players are online, which is great....just seemed that something was missing.
Perhaps it's me...I have not been myself lately...maybe I'm, finally after all these years, getting burned out.
Who knows :)
Rude
CO 13th TAS
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I've not noticed much of a difference in the MA other than the focus has pretty much boiled down to "land grab", there's a whole slew of new people (as well as old) and the weather outside has been damned good :)
I would like to fly Mindanao and the Baltic terrains, more than the Island map, that is fur sure.
Westy
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I've noticed a bunch of newbies on... some of them with incredibly familiar flying styles.
AKDejaVu
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The short answer is yes Rude. AH has changed immesnsely since the first few BETA tours.
The long answer is, well.......long. Many dynamic forces have converged at a nexus and turned AH into a very, very interesting experience.
Let me say that as a game where a main arena exists as a sort of colliseum where great gladiators spray blood and tissue into the four winds, its a fantastic experience.
As a WW2 combat sim, well......its still got quite a ways to go. It has nothing to do with the capabilities of the software because AH is undeniably full of program capabilites.
Rather, it has everything to do with the fact that HTC needs to expand its customer base by doing what HTC thinks is the most prudent thing to do. Create a great colliseum where gladiators fight in a great fantasy.
I only hope that as more people sign on, HTC can put more emphasis into the original simulation that attracted most of us to the BETA to begin with while maintaining a great colliseum for those that enjoy gladiating so much.
Basically, the simulators need the gladiators.
Hang in there and sorry for missing that six call :P
Yeager
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It seems to me that ever since the release of AH v1.06 the MA has been gotten faster and faster.
That is how it feels to me.
I AH v1.05 and earlier I could enjoy the A6M5b, but now it is nearly impossible to use in any role other than close base defense.
I also feel the the dominance of speed will make aircraft like the Me410 and Mosquito FB.VI useless and easy prey.
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Yes something is missing, but many of the amazinhunk cheerleader set refuse to admit it. AH is now less simulator and high end high-end high-realism game that it was meant to be and more air FPS and stupidity/dweeb l337 dweeb skillz game. I dont know what caused this exactly but the decline seems to have started with the Ostwind then CV introductions a few tours ago, and now continues with the insta-vulch retarded field ack modeling. I fear deep down sooner or later the Flight Modeling will begin to go the same way just as has most significant semblance of semi-logical and non-dweeb gameplay. But AH is still the best Online-Sim, but sadly I fear again this is maybe becoming more and more a reflection of how toejam-POOR the others are rather than any specific merits, qualities and original innovations of AH. I feel that all the good qualities of AH, such as stabilty, efficency to run on poor macunes, good FM, very good clean and efficient graphics, responsive, capable HTC leadership and skills, and frequent updates are being hurt more and more by incresingly dumb gameplay, pointless and overreaching "gameplay" adjustments ie. M16 armor model, and an overall sense of dweebiness that permeates the MA. Im sure we all love endless vulching, car-bombing, CV flak saturation over bases and all things over 3k alt for miles and miles around CV, PT boats mainly used as ack pickets, waves upon waves of idiot CV kamikaze jabos, then waves upon waves of kamikaze CV killers, bizzare armor model where light personell cariers and AAA vehivles are harder to kill than battle tanks. How about Battletanks which are disabled by 7.92mm and .50cal macine guns with only a few rounds.
HTC Maybe im being an bellybutton myself and being too hard on your efforts but I feel you have taken, or pehaps inadvertently let this program go too far away from what I read in one of your gamespot.com interviews a few years ago and that drew me to AH. Please take this as a concerned and well meaning, if a bit jaded and cynical reflection on AH as it is now. HTC you guys need to change pace and take charge of this BS, I feel this is no different than the difficult change you guys described from the 1.03FM to the 1.04FM, you didnt want to do it but it was shown to you to be wrong. Now I cannot present you drag modeling charts and figures like whels did regarding the 1.03FM, but this issue is no less important and damaging to your product. Reign in some of this dweebiness, maybe dedicate a development period to clean AH up and re-introduce some fresh and decent gameplay ideas. This will not go away and must be adressed. Its still the best game but I fear you are loosing focus.
To the usual BBS gang, go ahead and attack me....
And SW reflect on why HTC kicked u off the BBS when u write ur usual delightfully insightful remarks.
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I was kicked off because of foul language, that was friendly, towards the FDBs.
Anything else you think it was is simply incorrect.
-SW
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It's my opinion that the arena monitors need to get their keyboards fixed and start typing some .mute and/or .eject commands. I was showing a friend of mine the game the other day after bragging to him how cool the game is since you're actually fighting people and not the code (he's into boxed games). well, I get him online at about 8pm central time, with his wife sitiing there, I show him how to get in the main arena just in time to see gunman26 go into a f*ck this/that tyrade. My buddies wife got a real good dose of it. I was embarrassed.
Please start chunking the garbage out the door.
That's only my opinion of course.
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Yes something is missing, but many of the amazinhunk cheerleader set refuse to admit it. AH is now less simulator and high end high-end high-realism game that it was meant to be and more air FPS and stupidity/dweeb l337 dweeb skillz game.
To the usual BBS gang, go ahead and attack me....
:rolleyes:
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GRUNHERZ
The Main Arena of any Flight Sim game in in my experience has been unbridled carnage.
Take the bull by the horns and get involved in the SEA of the sim organize some events to quench your thirst for more historic behavior.
If weekend events are not enough to satisfy your needs, try improptu events in special events arenas Like Zigrat organized on many occasions.
Be part of a solution not part of your problem and you will find HTC has given the tools to mold gameplay.
I see a new TOD is being made for SEA.
Join it, contribute to it, offer constuctive thought to it, and im sure rewards will be reaped.
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Baddawg beat me to it. Word for word just about.
Grunherz you've always been pretty well articulate and clear with your thoughts and what you were trying to express. I've had differences of opinion but never lost respect as a fellow player. I just wanted to get that off my chest.
That being said, the MA is Quakers High here. Just like there's one for Quakesbirds and also for Quake Warriors.
I personally would enjoy the hell out of an Axis vs Allies arena but in the meantime I try to satiate my historical need via the special events. Sadly their date & times conflict with real life (or vice-versa) and I've not been able to enjoy them much. When I do I've flown whatever side needs the numbers. Most often the Axis side.
My only wish is that I had more personal time to get involved and help with more frequent scenarios. I really miss not having been involved at all with the last one.
-Westy
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Originally posted by Baddawg:
GRUNHERZ
The Main Arena of any Flight Sim game in in my experience has been unbridled carnage.
Take the bull by the horns and get involved in the SEA of the sim organize some events to quench your thirst for more historic behavior.
If weekend events are not enough to satisfy your needs, try improptu events in special events arenas Like Zigrat organized on many occasions.
Be part of a solution not part of your problem and you will find HTC has given the tools to mold gameplay.
I see a new TOD is being made for SEA.
Join it, contribute to it, offer constuctive thought to it, and im sure rewards will be reaped.
Aye, an excellent reply by an excellent online friend!
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Yeah Rude, I've seen a change since beta as well. Can't really put my finger on it. I don't think it is the sim itself but those of us that populate it.
Have we gotten a little childish? Do some say whatever comes to mind without engageing any sense of common decency? Is the kill so important that some just suicide into a field? Are some so inept at the use of the english language that cursing & berating our community members and the sim itself is common place?
It may be my perception. I came here from WB with guys who I knew & flew with and against. We were avid online flight sim enthusiasts. We were mature as we went at it, albeit, we would get silly at times but yet enjoyed ourselves and those we fought against. Heck, I even got along with stiglr :).
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How come I never see any of the people complaining AH is a quake fest or asking for more immersion in the Special Events on the weekends? Check out the specs on the Tour of Duty that daddog posted in the Announcements (shameless plug for my CO!!!) That's immersion right there. Assignments, no inflight radar, short icons (turn 'em off if you want even more difficulty). It's gonna be tough, and it's not for everyone's style of play. It IS for the immersion crowd though.
If it wasn't for the special events and the squad I fly with, I wouldn't have stayed with AH after the first month. I get the immersion I want from the events on the weekends. I enjoy them so much, that Friday nights, Saturday and Sunday mornings are Aces High times for me, I have no desire to do anything else during those time slots! (sheesh, how nerdy is that????? :o ) I get comraderie, friendship and support from my squadmates, which far makes up for any lack of immersion in the MA. I've learned to have fun in the MA flying with my squad, or with other squads if no Mongrels are on.
What you get out of this game is directly related to what you put in it (not talking about yer $30US per month, either!) When I log into the game tonight, if I have hopes and desires to jump in a Spitfire and hope to go up against some 109's and 190's only, I'm not gonna be happy. Pure and simple. If I log on tonight, with the desire to wing up with my squaddies, team up with some fellow Knights and get something accomplished (whether it be defending a base, taking a base, or just causing havoc and mayhem), then I'm going to have a wonderful time, just like I always do!
The Main Arena is the Main Arena. It's there for you to be able to fly WWII planes with good FM and DM in a combat environment. CV groups, GVs, buffs, and the strat layer are there for variety, not as the main focus, IMO. It has a Quake mentality because that's what a good portion of the paying customers want. The MA is definitely what the people flying in it make it, and that's how it should be, once again, IMO.
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Rip and Westy I think you two have had more experience with these big online Arena type games. So I accept your comments about the MA being a free for all setup.
My only previous online sim experience has been janes ww2 fighters. Belive it or not it started off as a pretty well regulated community with good relations,interersting and tactically appropriate, if FM limited gameplay. Then it started going downhill people got lazy HOs became more common, dweeby lag related tactics took over, more and more obscene and vulgar players came to the sim, and some even figured out how to cheat and modify the FM. That was the final straw for me and I left.
I was hoping and still do hope that AH avoids these things and avoids such a deterioration of gameplay and personal behavior. I admit my attitude on BBS and MA before wasnt always best one as I brought over much of my frustration from the ruined Janes ww2 fighters community and this was often multiplied when similar trends became more visible to me in AH. I dont know if Im succesful at projecting this attitude to our AH community, but my real wish is that we all enjoy ourselvess and have a challenging and interesting gameplay exoerience. But most of all that we do this with some sort of character and decency regarding dweeby things. I suppose sadly in this way AH has not met my expectations. I always looked up to WB/AH when I was in janes ww2 fiters as I hoped it would be a more adult,respectful and decent community, many on the BBS and in MA have often shattered those hopes. My blow-ups on BBS and in MA usually result from that sort of thing.
But im stil trying to be honest hopeful and helpful even if im a bit tired and jaded these days. Im even trying to help gunman26 clean up his stupidity on Ch1 by offering advice from my own expressive "nikichog" BBS/Ch1 period. Alas he doesnt care and just goes on rambling and isulting people. But ill keep trying I guess.
I donno guys, I relly do like AH a lot but am truly sadened and concerened with some extreme gameplay wierdness and stupidity that is present here. Ive been here 11 months now and it seems to have incresed recently. Mostly Osti stuff (much better now though, BTW excellent example how HTC can reign in dweeby issue), CV flak, and the new v1.07 ack which dies way to fast and is much too inaccurate leading to instant-vulch field capture strategy. For example Ive often seen Lancs and B26 fly 1000ft or so off the ground straight through the full field ack and only emerge with a smoked engine or two. Does this make sense?
BTW Thanks Westy and Ripsnort for your honest, reasonable, and decent posts. Seeing people like you post here, even in disagreement, is very good indeed. AH needs more adults like you! <S>
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Well...didn't mean to start anything....just wondered if any of you noticed what I'm noticing.
For me it's just a FEEL the place has taken on that is not what it used to be for me.
As far as the sim is concerned...the terrains make the sim for me....the two new ones create an entirely different experience flying and fighting. I for one wish the bases were not so close together, or at least some areas of the map were less populated....to give us more time to mount a defense would yield better fights and more fun....as it is now, everything happens too quickly. Still, it's not a perfect world and this product is well deserving of our praise, especially at $30.00/month.
BTW Yeag...you know better...it ain't no thing :D
Rude
CO 13th TAS
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Originally posted by Rude:
As far as the sim is concerned...the terrains make the sim for me....the two new ones create an entirely different experience flying and fighting. I for one wish the bases were not so close together, or at least some areas of the map were less populated....to give us more time to mount a defense would yield better fights and more fun....as it is now, everything happens too quickly
Definitely come check out the Special Events on the weekends!! Almost always historic terrains (the Phillipines, Norway and ETO are NICE!! Stalingrad should be ready soon as well!) and usually the events last over an hour, and this is with one life, though Check 6! events are usually multilife or free replanes. Bases usually aren't close together at all. Friday's snapshot is looking at an hour's flight time just to get to the target! (yes, I know this turns off a lot of people)
I dunno if you've tried them out, but if you haven't in awhile, go for it! :)
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Special Events are the sheeit...
I only wish I had more time to attend more of them.
The ones I've been in were awesome!
-SW
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Quote from Rude
I for one wish the bases were not so close together, or at least some areas of the map were less populated....to give us more time to mount a defense would yield better fights and more fun....as it is now, everything happens too quickly
i agree, anyone remember the .XX and 1.XX days of warbirds with only 4 bases per side?
you could climb straight towards the closest enemy base and still reach 20K+ altitude(and you can still see the same dweebfire pilots chuggin along at 12k here that you did there :) )
I dunno, it just seemed so much more roomy back then...just me?
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well rude... take this anyway u like but.. there is the karnak view and the rude pugg view at work in the arena. there allways has been but the lack of a rolling plane set coupled with the addition of more and more fast, late war planes is bringing the animosity to a head...
I, like karnak, abhor the faster and faster arena that makes it impossible for early planes to exist. I want fields closer together not further apart. I want the skill I like to be dominant.... I want to have huge melees consisting of good turning planes..
your camp wants your skill to be dominant, you want elbow room for your very fast poor handling planes. you want the fites to ber spread out so that you won't accidently get whacked by a slower,more agile plane because your SA was stressed to the breaking point with a crowded arena.
fine... except when the two try to co-exist.. I don't know where the "majority" of players stand. it certainly seems as though they go to the action tho. It would be very frustrating I suppose for a 51 squad who has practiced an aerial ballet if their skill were not only not appreciated but ... unwelcome in some of the melees. but think of it from their/our point of view...
you are flying an untouchable plane (if flown properly) in a coordinated fashion. This is fine but imagine if the only planes up were 51's and 262's and a 262 squad were doing the same to you. I don't know whos style is out of place in the arena.. my guess is that there are more people who enjoy melees but the real solution is a rolling plane set.
I know that i don't appreciate 13 tas guys horning in on a melee I resent the fact that they are in a risk free (they can allways run away if people get anoyed) plane acting in a risk free manner... The styles clash. They would not in a RPS. the real irony is that organized squads in fast planes are most responsible for bringing all this to a head.
It manifests itself in obvious ways... Those who like late war fast planes seem to gravitate to less radar, more spread out fields, and less populated arenas where the early/mid war fans want more radar, closer fields and bigger melees (in general).
I guess the whole point is that the two styles clash. They shouldn't be in the same arena. You won't find slow planes trying to compete in your P51 world (if they're halfway smart) but you feel free to play the bully in theirs/ours. You/late war/fast guys hold all the cards right now and if given preference would make things even more lopsided. I believe that both styles would be appreciated more in a rolling plane set. I know that i am allways disapointed when i see that the "fite" I was expecting is nothing more than a P51 squad doing their aerial ballet thing. I certainly don't appreciate it. I'm sure that u feel that you are working hard for your kills and that you are skilled. We feel the same about ours. It's just that the two are so different. nort compatible.... the town isn't big enough etc.
I believe that this lack of a rolling plane set is the problem with the arena and peoples enjoyment of it.
lazs
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Gee, I guess there were two of us that liked the RPS.
Having played these games for a long time, I look for variety to keep things interesting. AH has provided variety with new terrains, ships, and ground vehicles; and I enjoy all of them. However, I think there could be more variety in the air combat aspect, by introducing more early war planes, AND an environment in which they can compete. IMO, the RPS did that. For me, it also provided an insight into the pilots' experience of the evolution of hardware and tactics as the war progressed.
Others hated the RPS. I guess they didn't value the sort of variety it produced in the game. Some felt early war planes were too slow and didn't kill quickly enough. Others felt they deserved to fly their favorite plane whenever they want. (I guess the Tempest isn't anyone's favorite.) Whatever the reason, it seems that RPS was a marketing failure.
I propose a modified RPS:
Start with three sets of planes. Earliest at forward fields, later at more rear fields. As later generations of planes are introduced, shift the prior ones to more forward fields. Allow any plane safely landed at any field to launch from that field, as a reward for staying alive, and to allow later war planes to be ferried to the front.
Get rid of the Perk system.
Allow "Aces" with a kill streak of (insert number) to launch any plane in the current set from any field, as a reward for "doing well".
This modified RPS would provide a reasonable environment for early war planes, without too drastic a "penalty" for One Trick Pon....er, specialized players.
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Great post Popeye, I heartily agree with most of it!
Of course, I'd agree with almost anything that would give me the chance to fight in and against early war planes.
anRky
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Good posts Lazs & Popeye, I would like to see more early/mid war planes and an arena like Popeye outlined or an RPS.
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Sometimes we get too close to the forest, and miss the fact that it's justa group of trees.
The Main has devolved into a big conflict of various intrests.. quake vs squads vs strat vs furball vs choices vs icons vs planesets ..
Muddled is a good word.
The TOD, Snapshots, CK 6's are GREAT; I'm most entuhisiastic about them..
But I think we need a full time HA. This past saturday the SEA was set up as a HA with a historic limited planeset and it was a blast. I think thats what we need avavilable to us; full time.
WTG CM corps. Keep the good stuff comming!
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
This past saturday the SEA was set up as a HA with a historic limited planeset and it was a blast.
Awwww maaaannnn realy?!?!?! it was setup like an HA? or are you just saying the event resembled an HA? Because if there gonna do stuff like set up the SEA like an HA for a day or 2 I sure would like to know about it.
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Yeah, there were 40 people there at the start of the event Acid.
One problem. Someone forgot to put two CMs on duty or something.
Fields didn't get unlocked/activated for another hour. I logged off and went into MA after 45 minutes.
Simply not worth my time to sit through that.
-SW
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If we want to see more variety we have to do something like RPS. I do like popīs idea. I believe we might give it a chance and see i it works. I just donīt like the idea of let "aces" launch any planes anywhere.
[]
fradim
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Rude, I feel the lack of elbow room too. It's great that we have more people but ever since it has climbed above 80 I feel closterphobic. I would like to see the bases farther apart also. Oh, well, I will deal with it :) and make the arena work for me :)
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Can HTC run an experiment? Open up two arenas. One MA, another HA. Come back two weeks later, check the log and see if the HA gets enough usage to justify keeping it open. I know I would be in there. I've only been playing a month and its easy to see the p51/spit problem that is growing. There's no need for HTC to add planes if no one will fly them because they can't compete with the p51d/spit dominance. For that reason I agrees with laz1.
(http://www.innercite.com/~lsterling/elitesig4.jpg)
[ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: SunKing ]
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Originally posted by SunKing:
compete with the p51d/spit dominance. For that reason I agrees with laz1 ,
Oh come now, you can't be serious...
"Dominance"? Nuisance.. a laughable nuisance at that. Easily fooled nuisance.
They die perty like too.
I fear no Pony! I fear no Spit!
-SW
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Can HTC run an experiment? Open up two arenas. One MA, another HA. Come back two weeks later, check the log and see if the HA gets enough usage to justify keeping it open.
They could.. in fact they have with a different company. They have more experience with this than people tend to give them credit for.
As a rule, people congregate to the most occupied arena. Even those that prefer many HA aspects will fly in the MA because there are more targets. Basically, the crowd migrates towards the numbers.
I've only been playing a month and its easy to see the p51/spit problem that is growing.
Um.. this is an incredible mis-statement. You are refering to a growing problem in regards to two planes that have been around since beta 1.
Trust me... the problem is not worse than it has been in the past. The problem is still mainly in perception. The problem only arguably exists.
There's no need for HTC to add planes if no one will fly them because they can't compete with the p51d/spit dominance.
The P-51 can out-run most planes. It doesn't dominate any.
The spit can out-turn most planes. Most of those it can out-turn can out-run it. Basically, it only dominates certain planes flow certain ways.
Maybe the word you were looking for was "prevelance"? Of course, there are more N1K2's in the arena than these two... and the La-7 pretty much leaves both the 51 and Spit in the dust.
...but people have learned to hate the P-51 and Spit long ago. But we aren't supposed to take about LW conspiracies any more... people might leave.
For that reason I agrees with laz1 ,we need a HA arena.
LOL! I strongly suggest you edit that to represent what lazs actually said.. before he sees it ;) He doesn't want an HA.. he wants a rotating planeset. There is a big difference. The closest thing to an HA that lazs promotes is seperate areas in the MA for early and late war planes.
AKDejaVu
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SunKing
Is that an LA7 in your sig?
And you dont like seeing lots of P51s and Spits?
If they are as common as you say then they are just fodder for you. The best way to lower the numbers of them in the arena is to demonstrate to the pilots in them that they are pretty much helpless against you.
I however have to agree with the gentlemen above. The MA is probably as ballenced as we will get it.
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Pongo actually that is Yak in my sig (or so the caption on the pic stated). I really like the Russian plane set.
Im happy to see alot of people in the arena, more the merry. I'm just bummed when i see a huge formation of dots inbound and they turn out to be 5+ p51s and spits, seems to be that case most of the time. Like you said they are fodder and my skills will only increase if I continue to fly against the late war planes. I'm just hoping for variety like the rest of you.
(http://www.innercite.com/~lsterling/elitesig4.jpg)
[ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: SunKing ]
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That looks like the La-5FN to me. It looks completely grey and appears to have a bulge below and behind the cowling (La7's is bigger and further back)..
Could be wrong though.
-SW
[ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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For the record....
I wish we had a rolling plane set.
I make no apologies for flying a certain aircraft the way it was designed to be flown.
If we got a RPS, my squad is perfectly capable, as many other sqds in this sim are, of flying any plane well enough to enjoy a credible degree of success.
It's not a perfect world Laz. It is getting closer now that I know how you hate to get popped by a pony :D
Goodness :)
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Originally posted by Pongo:
SunKing
Is that an LA7 in your sig?
And you dont like seeing lots of P51s and Spits?
If they are as common as you say then they are just fodder for you. The best way to lower the numbers of them in the arena is to demonstrate to the pilots in them that they are pretty much helpless against you.
I however have to agree with the gentlemen above. The MA is probably as ballenced as we will get it.
It might be:
(http://members.aol.com/yuphil/images/Yak3u.JPG)
Yak-3U
Rebuilt aircraft with the ASh-82FN radial engine and twin B-20 cannon.
Despite the fact the engine was heavier than the previous engines, this version
actually wieghted less than the standard Yak-3. During a series of test flights
started on 12 May 1945, the aircraft achieve a maximum speed of 441 mph (710
km/h) at 20,015 ft (6100 m).
Bet this thing would kick bellybutton in the arena.
[ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: jihad ]
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LOL... do I detect some heat??
For the record, I do NOT support a RPS in the MA. An RPS promotes confinement to a particular planeset, exclusive of country; removing choices... exclusionary thinking. Not inclusionary.
What the hell's the point?? The bish would have all 1942 planes; LW, LVVS, British, USAAF, IJN, fighting opponents with the same range of A/C.. nothin changes; just fewer planes to pick from, fewer options, reduced everything, all so a few guys can be assured that the worst they'll have to deal with from the opponent is a plane most would not fly under other circumstances.
Leave the MA alone, don't RPS it.
The place for an RPS is in a HA, with plane types restricted to 'country'.... a place the 'LW' would like immensely I'm sure... at least untill 1944. :D
On the other hand, I think we should rotate Laz into buffs fer a tour tho. :)
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The plane doesn't look like that though Jihad. For one, the one in the touched up picture has an antenna mast directly behind the canopy. The plane appears to have a sun "glare" on it like the way AH models it. It looks like the AH La5FN in a touched up photo with lens flare and lightening up the whole photo.
-SW
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What about RPS within a war. After war is won and reset. start with basic plane set then expand slowly with time.
War tactics would have to adjust as plane set evolved. Factory and City damage would slow down plane developement. This would put a great significance on defending and attacking the heart of other countries.
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been saying this all along.
30 day tour
first 10 days early war planes free, mid war planes as semi-expensive perks (10 perks), late war as expensive perks (40 perks).
day 10->20 : Mid war planes unperked, early war planes get 2X perk gain modifier, late war planes become semi-expensive perks (10 perks)
day 20->30 Late war planes unperked, early war planes X4 perkie gain , mid war planes X2 perkie gain.
we would need a few more planes for an early war planeset first though :)
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[RPS rant]
Not with all country's havin the same planes avail.. whats the point? It's still gonna be the same MA.. same spit v spit and 109 v 109 dweebery, same everything.. and fewer planes to choose from.
[soapbox]
Look.. we ain't got half enuff fighters, buffs, squids, boats or cockroaches to make a MA anything other than fun depravation with an RPS in place.
RPS and a HA.. that works. And right now. No waiting.. hop into 1943, saddle up a Jug and go huntin FW's on the other side of the channel.
[/RPS rant][/soapbox}
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Hang,
Yer saying that the RPS wouldn't be popular in the MA because it is "exclusionary" and limits choices....then you suggest that an RPS in an HA with much more limited choices WOULD be popular??
Guess I'm not following your thinking here.... :)
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lol... those who ring the choice bell allways want to fly their plane all the time even if it means limiting everyone elses choices to the bone in things like axis vs allied and HA, icons late war only etc.. just having late war planes in an MA with no RPS limits VIABLE choice. fool yourself but leave us out of it.
deja is correct... people go where the numbers are. I think that just making an early war addition to a RPS that would be say.... 2-3 days at the beggining of the tour would not be TOO much of a burden on ouy runstang f;lying friends eh?
rude... you would have to come down to get me and.. make sure that the rest of the ballet troupe was on the right page... seems a lot of work for poor ol harmless lazs. I think P51's are merely annoying... not dominant or not even to be feared. They really don't fit with some of the early war planes we have in the arena right now and if a person has patience and buddies he/they can be untouchable.... bored witless... but untouchable. not to say it isn't a skill like any other just.... kind of a sleazy, "timid" one in the current MA.
lazs
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Hangtime:
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For the record, I do NOT support a RPS in the MA. An RPS promotes confinement to a particular planeset, exclusive of country; removing choices... exclusionary thinking. Not inclusionary.
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And just how is the current MA setup 'including' those of us who would rather fly in and against early/mid war planes?
anRky
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Why don't we revisit the topic of an RPS or modified RPS or whatever... when we actually get more early war planes than just the 109F4/C.202/SpitV?
Really... right now you are just blowing smoke up each other's tulips for no reason. All we have is pretty much late war jobs, don't need an RPS.. YET.
-SW
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If you need a change, try out the Special Events. Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays in my part of the world.
I agree, the MA isn't entirely my cup of tea and I would like to see a RPS of some sort whenever the plane-set is more fleshed out. I've been flying the F4UD a lot lately along with some time in the P38 and I don't consider myself a very good stick but I constantly encounter LA7s, N1Ks and Spits who are flown many times by good sticks so I'm doubly in trouble and wary of engaging. It is tough and not necessarily always enjoyable. I hopped into a Spit9 a few times recently and was blown away by my kill ratio in that thing. Other than being vulched twice in the Spit and diving for the ground and crashing to make a Special Event, my K/D ratio is way out of whack in the positive ledger in the Spit when compared to when I fly the Corsair and Lightning. If we ever get Wildcats, which I'd love to fly, I'll never be able to do so in MA if the numbers of N1Ks and Spits do not diminish. Thus, I'm indirectly restricted from my favorite ride by you late-war flyer types. Without some constraints, MA remains a 1944+ plane set with the option of suicide (if one so wishes) by taking up a Wildcat or Dauntless.
But I'm not here because I want things easy. I prefer the challenge and I'm going to stick with my Corsair and a few of the other types for now. In the future I'd like to see a rolling set but for now I make it a point to attend the Special Events as best I can and hope to see others make it a point to attend as well.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
(Why can't we run out as a troop to shoot the paratroopers running to our maproom...it seems odd that the bases are ghost towns.)
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very true sw... The addition of say just 2 or three early war planes in next version would make a very short (2-3 day) rps a viable thing tho. Spit one, 109e maybe a p40 or f4f-3... we could build from there.. adjust the RPS according to popularity... I don't really know how well it would go over. we would find out soon enough... Maybe 1 day would be too much.. maybe a week would be too little. who knows? I don't think 3 new early war planes would be too much for the next version tho...
lazs
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Hiya Popeye!
What I'm trying to get across is the MA system allows all planes on all sides.. and an RPS THERE don't make much sense, because we will have fewer planes doin the same old thing.. spittys vs spittys and 109's vs 109's..
An RPS is more suited to a HA in my feeble opinion because it will lock opposing countrys down to an appropriate plane type (axis vs allied, or LVVS vs LW or IJN vs USN) and do it on a reasonable timeline.
We don't have enuff planes yet to make a decent early war RPS, so a HA RPS would be limited to 1943 forward (for now) and an MA RPS would be un-fun because of the availablity of all planes to all flyers regardless of country the player is in.
I'm just not a spitty fan, or a zeke fan, or a f4f fan or a 109 fan... I don't begrudge the right of any pilot to fly what he wants; when he wants from wherever he wants in the MA... and an RPS in the MA would deny me access to the plane I want to fly when I want to fly it.
And RPS in the MA is exclusionary.. "Sorry, that plane is not available till Tuesday." That just don't cut it... not in the MA anyway.
I have horribly anti-RPS feelings about the MA.. I went thru the RPS system in WB's, before they had a HA, and as a result, they lost my buisness. I just didn't fly till the P51D became available, and my flying hours dropped dramaticly. I eventually just cancelled my account.
So; without stamping my feet and makin a big scene, lemme just say the RPS system DOES have a negative side, and it ain't 'the cure' for the late war aircraft population and it's fans.
Early war planes do best in a RPS.. and the place for THAT is in a HA, where spit 5 will face 109e and f, etc... not Spit 5 vs spit 5.
But thanks for askin Popeye!! <S!>
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Hang, what if you had a P51 variant available during most of the tour? You would have the Mustang I in Feb, '42... maybe 4 days into the tour? I don't know how it would be scaled, I never flew WB when it had the RPS in effect so I'm guessing on the numbers here. Then you'd have a Mustang IA(150built) with four 20mm cannons instead of the 8 gun, 4 .50, 4 .303, but I'm not sure when that came out.
Anyway, you'd have a Mustang variant during the entire tour and that Mustang variant would be what the 'D' model is to the later war planes. Faster, better performance, etc.
Would that be an agreeable RPS system then? I'm just speculating of course, I have no idea when or if they would model earlier Mustangs.
-SW
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Hang,
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What I'm trying to get across is the MA system allows all planes on all sides.. and an RPS THERE don't make much sense, because we will have fewer planes doin the same old thing.. spittys vs spittys and 109's vs 109's..
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I'm pretty sure we all understand you. You are making statement that an RPS would limit the choices but still the people are going to grab the best plane available and all countries can choose them. So we'd see the best P-40 or the best Wildcat in the air. I have no problem with that. I mean, we'd at least get to see them in the air then! I don't get why that is a bad thing.
But you gotta understand, you dislike not being able to fly your P-51 if there are limitations...but on the flip-side, by your flying the P-51 and others flying N1Ks, LA7s and ME262s if we get that, those who want to fly the Wildcat or P-40 on occasion are pretty much relegated to being just a target...and that's really no fun. But if people were limited for a few days to flying just P-40s, A6M2s and Wildcats and similar planes, then those who enjoy those airframes will at least have a chance to engage in their favorite rides without being highly underclassed. I think the N1K and Pony fans can give us early-plane guys a few days out of the month when we get the planes, right?
I'm really having a tough time in the arenas now, to be honest. In fact, I just flew two missions in the Dhog and got whacked by a Yak and a LA7. I'm not that good, but even so...I can't do anything against those planes when in the F4U except run. I got tired of running and decided to try a few things against a Yak...no cigar. Against those planes, if I turn even a little bit, they can outturn me and I'll lose a lot of energy yet they accelerate like rockets compared to my F4U and can make up any loss of energy and I'll never regain like them. I can only imagine who'd enjoy taking a P-40 or Wildcat up in that. I wouldn't think the enjoyment would last all that long either.
In essence, if you don't have a rolling plane set once we get a full war set of planes, that in itself restricts the enjoyment for some people and in all intents and purposes really restricts the aircraft we can take up and survive in let alone gain kills in. That is, unless you and others promise to not shoot down my Wildcat in your P-51 so that I can fly the plane that I like and search around for something I can actually compete with.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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Yup no doubt this is a tuffie.. no easy solution. Good to talk about it tho..
It's not unreasonable to want to fly your plane in an enviornment conducive to givin you a reasonable chance of survival..
Ok, lets look at it again.
But if people were limited for a few days to flying just P-40s, A6M2s and Wildcats and similar planes, then those who enjoy those airframes will at least have a chance to engage in their favorite rides without being highly underclassed.
Sure; but do it in the HA. And as a bonus, you can fly your early-war plane against it's natural enemies. Insteada just goin cannibal with it in the MA. :)
I think the N1K and Pony fans can give us early-plane guys a few days out of the month when we get the planes, right?
Jeeze; why just a few days?? I think a HA with and RPS and terrain switches weekly would give ya more than that.
I'm really having a tough time in the arenas now, to be honest. In fact, I just flew two missions in the Dhog and got whacked by a Yak and a LA7. I'm not that good, but even so...I can't do anything against those planes when in the F4U except run. I got tired of running and decided to try a few things against a Yak...no cigar.
I know the feeling. My pony wouldn't last any longer than that Hawg did. And yer hawg and my pony together wouldn't have lasted 2 minutes aginst Mitsu inna Zeke or a 202 for that matter.. :)
In essence, if you don't have a rolling plane set once we get a full war set of planes, that in itself restricts the enjoyment for some people and in all intents and purposes really restricts the aircraft we can take up and survive in let alone gain kills in. That is, unless you and others promise to not shoot down my Wildcat in your P-51 so that I can fly the plane that I like and search around for something I can actually compete with.
Well.. I can can certainly understand that the MA is a heluva deadly place, and I'd be willing to bet it will remain so, RPS or not, early and late war additions in the future or not. Still; I suspect you'd not dislike having a Historical Arena, Training Arena, Special Events Arena or Dueling Arena (and also the HTH arenas) where you could fly your fav plane in an enviornment that suits your mood while not restricting the access of others to the planes they wish to fly[/i]
Look I don't wanna deny anybody anything; and I think the game's doin a pretty good job of trying to give as many of us as possible as much as possible. I'd find an RPS in the MA to be a restriction.. I'd be in a plane I would not have chosen otherwise, rather than what I wanted to fly... Kinda like havin to drive a hundai like the resta these lemmings on the highway because if I was allowed to drive my jeep; and one of those guys fediddleed up in front of me and I hit him; I might kill him. :)
HA and RPS.. hell yes.. MA and RPS... nope. But, thats just my opinion. I could be wrong.
:) <S!>
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Laz...quit it :)
To turn and burn in the MA and die....well, if dyin is your thing.
I just love the guys who tell others how to fly...I do believe you may have a case of the BIG head, and are just jealous of more skilled and handsome lads such as those in the 13th TAS.
Ugly....real ugly laz.
Next time your online, try and say hi or somethin...it should feel better to get killed by those your friendly with...I would think :D
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Hangtime,
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Yup no doubt this is a tuffie.. no easy solution. Good to talk about it tho..
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I agree. Good that we can disagree without taking to flames
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Sure; but do it in the HA. And as a bonus, you can fly your early-war plane against it's natural enemies. Insteada just goin cannibal with it in the MA.
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I can say the same thing in reverse back to you. You can fly your late-war models in the HA and against similarly deadly enemies. Maybe even have a late-war HA when the MA is in an early plane set. Like you state, there are no easy answers here and you can never please everyone at all times. However, the HA as it now stands is very restricted and a player can't just up in a plane looking for a fight. That's what MA is for.
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while not restricting the access of others to the planes they wish to fly
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That's just the thing. Without a RPS it does deny some their favorite ride. Again, we are being premature about this because the plane set as it stands does not need anything like this yet. But when it's more fleshed out, there may be amends needed for the fans of the early hardware. And to be honest, the HA's are very few and probably wouldn't have a Wildcat type scenario more than once per week if that. And so you know, I do make it a point to put make the HA my priority in Aces High.
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I'd find an RPS in the MA to be a restriction.. I'd be in a plane I would not have chosen otherwise, rather than what I wanted to fly
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But it's the same thing in reverse. Tonight, after dying too many times in my big, slow, heavy, hates-to-turn Hog, I finally grabbed a 51D just so I can compete and I was able to get a few kills and it was fun. However, because of what's being flown out there, I was restricted from flying my Hog or P38. It ends up being the same thing.
This reminds me of a quote from a song...
"And the trees are all kept equal by hatchet, axe and saw."
There is no easy answer, I'll agree to that. Good we can all talk about it though and state our concerns. Take care.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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Whether or not to have an RPS is somewhat of a moot point. Its going to have to happen sooner or later. I believe there is a limit on the number of planes that are going to occupy one arena at a time. 64 seems to be a number that HT has thrown my way before <please correct me if I'm wrong on that one>. Right now, we are at 50. Of course, we can only have 63 total planes because one will always be a chute ;)
I guess the question really becomes "how is it done" or "is two arenas better". One thing is given: The MA cannot have all airplanes HTC develops on at the same time <after a certain point>.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
The MA cannot have all airplanes HTC develops on at the same time <after a certain point>.
I thought this was the limit in WB, but Pyro said he could remove the upper limit by changing the value that the max is set to?
Right now we have 50 planes... probably only about 20 of them are seeing extensive use though.
-SW
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I know I haven't been around much lately, but I gotta jump into this one. ;)
No RPS... No, NO.... NO RPS.........no..no..no...NO, NO , and NO again !!!!
Just say NO to a RPS!
:p
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hang... suppose we said that we wanted late war mustangs restricted to the HA and told you that it was for your own good because you would be able to fly em against "historic" enemy's( all 3-4 guys at peak hours)... I like some kind of RPS but I hate axis vs allied. What is the big deal? so 2 or three early war planes would be maybe twice as popular as the rest... Isn't that the case in the current MA with spits and niks? steven has hit it right on the head.
I have suggested a mustang 1, bet you'd like it. other than that... I will concede that early war is not as popular as mid war but.... late war is not as popular as mid war either.. late war is being "forced" on most right now tho while early is being "forced" out... I see nothing wrong with a few days at the beggining of the tour for early war planes to fight each other in a viable arena without axis vs allied roadkill.
rude don't know how handsome 13tas guys are.. never get close enough to tell. not fond of your 'leader' tho but that is old toejam.. not real fond of squad planes and tactics in the ma that take advantage of the lack of an rps either but that's the way it is. I doubt that you would be all that fond of a LW squad that employed your tactics in the MA in 262's either. I really think that you guys are helping to point out the need for an RPS of some type but also feel that it is inevitable in any case. Oh... and did i just get accused of having a "big head" by a 13tas guy? I'm sure the irony of that is not lost on BB readers.
lazs
[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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I thought this was the limit in WB, but Pyro said he could remove the upper limit by changing the value that the max is set to?
They can change the value.. or number of planes.. but its going to affect framerate and minimum vid memory requirements.
Think back (not that long ago) to the backpeddaling that HS did over at brand X in regards to the number of planes they'd have in WB3. Same rules still aply.
AKDejaVu
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Right, but the limit isn't 64 planes total inside the program... but only 64 planes can be displayed on each users FE at any one time.
So it all depends on how many different planes YOU see, right?
-SW
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Hang,
Thanks for taking time to clarify. Though I don't like to limit myself to one plane, I can appreciate your preference. However, ask yourself if you would feel the same way about the RPS, if we had unrestricted access to Tempest, Me-262, F8F, Spit XIV, and F4u-4. This is the sort of environment, relative to fans of the P-51D, that the the current MA is to fans of early war planes now.
Tough problem, with no easy solution.
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Right, but the limit isn't 64 planes total inside the program... but only 64 planes can be displayed on each users FE at any one time.
So it all depends on how many different planes YOU see, right?
Wulfie.. the specs aren't set by how much you see, but rather what you might see. Once again.. there is a limit for a reason.
AKDejaVu
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Okay, see what you mean.
-SW
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Hey guys, thanks for the viewpoints... nice to be able to look inside the other guys cockpit and see what he's seeing.
It's kinda neat... about a year and a half back, the P51D ruled the roost, and as the flight models developed there were some pretty spectacular nights in the MA for the old pony.
And some pretty spectacular howls on the BBS about it too. Hehehhehhee
Nowadays; it's a ho-hum also ran plane; a fair number of planes are available to counter either it's speed or turning ability, can out gun it, can out dive it; can out accelerate it, or ALL of the above and only a P38 has a more feeble tail...
And I don't give a damn about what the other guys flying, and when the jets come I still won't give a damn. (except for that damn paper mache tail) It's still my ride. :) Staying alive in it is harder these days, but that's ok... flying it against more comepent adverarys in more competent planes is also a heluva lotta fun. THATS what the MA is about, I think.. match your skills and your choice aginst the other guys.
Why does Mitsu rule inna Zeke? How come Festabria is death to all comers in a POS P38?? What makes Mathman so hard to kill in his F6F? How come Kbman chops all comers down in his F4U-1D? What makes 'ol Frenchy so scary in that damn ugly-assed Jug?? How come FDski can make a Spitfire do amazing things at Warp7? Who in hell gifted Hblair with eyes in the back of his head and a 109g10?? (gonna kill that guy one day... i jus KNOW it!!) How come Zigrat's so good in EVERYTHING?
Theres dozens of more examples... many more guys that succesfully continue to get kills and dominate airspace in 'second rate' airplanes in the current planest in the current MA.. Why??
Skill... SA, familiarity, dedication, drugs.... whatever. :D Point is; the MA is a place where anything, flown by anybody at any time will come your way.. can you survive?[/i]
RPS the uber pilots.. it makes just about as much sense to me as an RPS for planes IN THE MA [/i]
Gents; we're all part of the food-chain in the MA, on any given day; RPS or not, yer gonna be food for the person or plane a lil higher up the chain... that's just reality... if you fly your early war bird right, you ain't any more or less of a target for a Tempest or an LA7 or Mitsu in that Zeke than I am in a pony. Frankly; I'd rather die in the pony; but that's just me. :)
Thanks again for all the well considered input on this...
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Some want to fly early war planes against reasonable enemies, some other want to be able to grab their late war favorite every time they fly... a solution to this was discussed earlier:
Limit planes by fields! ... not by days of the Tour.
Early war fields have only early war planes. Mid war fields have early and mid war planes. Late war fields have all planes available.
Late war planes would be most likely available until the reset. They can attack the enemy from the sides of their sectors or fli a bit longer to attack early areas.
If this is too harsh for some, make the late war planes available at mid war but slightly perked (5-10 points) and more perked at early war fields (10-20 points). Thus mid war planes would be 5-10 perks at early war fields.
The fields positions on the exaple map below would need to be adjusted!!! It is just an example of the idea.
Some of u were strongly against this kind of ideas... why??? This does not take away your liberties but it would give a lot of possibilities and variation!
(http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/LPFmap.jpg)
ps. The original idea of this area solution was not mine... just been trying to develope it further into a solution that would satisfy most of those who are against any RPS.
[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: BlauK ]
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Yep... that is the solution... 40K mountins for seperation. I have never seen why this wouldn't work. Thanks for the map blauk it is pretty much the way I would do it if I had any talent for it.
It would work just as well if every slice of the "pie" were and era... early, mid and late.. slice size could be adjusted acccording to preference/popularity.
Too much choice for most posters tho I bet. Not a good map if you have to force people to fly with you or you can only compete in an arena that your plane is untouchable in.
lazs
[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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Well no one would be dumb enough to throw their declawed popsiclecat into a cage with a pissed off hungry tiger. So it is with early warplanes in an arena filled with late warplanes.
The "solution" of using tier one fields for early planes and tier 3 fields for late planes seperated by vast mountain ranges is no solution at all. Just another burp in a long list of equally anemic hyperbolic possibilities. There are few solutions that will please more than 49% of the customer base and this aint one of em.
I do admit hwoever to being very intrigued trying to guess just how HTC will get themselves out of this fix. And a fix it really is.
HTC should have started at the beginning of the era and worked forward. The community could have grown into the progression naturally and community solutions based on community experience would have been far more equitable for most everyone in the end, I am sure.
As it is, sooner or later we will have to confront the the need to level load the planeset one way or another. Be it by having a terribly exaggerated perk system, plane-restricted fields or a RPS.
RPS is most assuredly out of the question. HTC has shown a healthy bent on avoiding simple comparrisons with their now estranged elder child. RPS is over there now, it wont be introduced here. Trust me on this one. Plane restricted fields are possible but the idea is unattractive and unimaginative. More like a bubble gum quick fix for a leaky radiator. An exaggerated perk system is most likely simply because it promotes Pyros perk system and would be an attraction for many to try to survive amongst the tigers in their puny little popsiclecats. The rest would care less because the 51Ds, N1Ks and G10s are left unhindered.
Yeager
[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Yeager ]
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yeager... i agree that HTC have gotten themselves into a mess that they will need to find a solution for... later planes added make the arena even faster and early war planes can't be added in the current arena.
where we heartily disagree is that the "area" arena won't work. The area arena is about choice and parity... nothing more. My guess is that most people will choose an airfield in the mid war area most of the time but that people will still go to where the numbers are. people may fly 1 sortie in the mid war area and find that nothing fun is happening so (by looking at the map) they will decide that "boy that sure looks like a good fite at A5 in the early war area" and..... click, they are there.. Or they may have hours to spend or be on some kinda streak fetish and simply click on the late war area.. they could try every single area alternately... All planes would be available to them all the time and all planes would be in an environment that was fair and allowed that plane to compete with it's peers.
it is really nothing different than the curent system that allows us to choose the field that best matchs what we want to do except that we are able to choose era as well as field. If all you ever want to fly is mustangs then you need never leave the late war "area" fields. your choice. each "area" would have more like minded people in it than the current arena does.
lazs
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no no :) :) No separating mountains. It is nice to have an occasional late war plane wander into the early war area :)
The area solution would just cut down the amount late war adversaries for early war planes.. not prohibit it completely. If they want to fly all the way to the center from the outer rim, let them :) Much more bitter for them when they get shot down.. just as when one gets shot down in a perk plane.
This area solution is a very soft approach, nothing much drastic from what MA is at present. Still it would offer new situations!
I really hope that HTC will consider this!!!
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My two cents worth. Air Warrior has already undergone what AH is experiencing now. They added an Axis vs. Allies Arena. The terrain was the english channel basically. Aircraft that were used, if I remember correctly were, SpitV, FW190A3, BF109F, BF110, P-40, and of course I believe the Ju-88 and B-17. My memory might be off here, but listed above is what I recall. Some played there, but the numbers I recall were only good during certain hours of the day. So if one lived in a time zone that didn't align when the numbers were good in Axis vs. Allies Arena, he didn't fully get the chance to compete, and was somewhat dismayed that he didn't have the opportunity when numbers were above 8 or 10.
RPS. I don't like them......I left Air Warrior full realism because of them. Monthly the terrain would change from ETO to PAC. And with the Map change so did the planesets. Never liked PAC planes of any country. And I always felt more comfortable seeing "terra firma" beneath me then an open expanse of blue textured water. Then again, this is just my humble opinion. But an opinion that I believe a great many others might share.
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blauk... some have said the same as you.. that they wouldn't mind seeing later planes in earlier areas if they were rare and the wussy had to fly for 30 minutes or so to get there before he got shot down.
There are even more cool possibilities with an "area" arena.. Each "area' could have terrain that suited it.. Imagine that the early war area had for instance, the old canyon world where twisting and turning through the canyons would be a blast. Late war could be a desert since you shouldn't really care about the terrain at 25k anyway.
anyhow... I think it is a fairly simple and... fair solution for the problems of adding new planes without the stigma of an RPS
lazs