Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: MachFly on November 16, 2011, 11:27:25 PM
-
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/red-bull-air-race-championships-put-hold-%E2%80%94-again?cmpid=enews111511 (http://www.flyingmag.com/news/red-bull-air-race-championships-put-hold-%E2%80%94-again?cmpid=enews111511)
:furious
-
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/red-bull-air-race-championships-put-hold-%E2%80%94-again?cmpid=enews111511 (http://www.flyingmag.com/news/red-bull-air-race-championships-put-hold-%E2%80%94-again?cmpid=enews111511)
:furious
they mentioned this last year, with that last close call, when one of the pilots nearly stalled his plane.
said they were gonna take the year off to review.
-
they pulled out of sponsoring a nascar team also.
-
The gov is considering making energy drink 18+ up here in quebec. They would only be for sale in SAQ (société des alcools), the state 'company' that sells the booze in QC.
-
they mentioned this last year, with that last close call, when one of the pilots nearly stalled his plane.
said they were gonna take the year off to review.
They stoped the 2010 races in the middle of the season, cancelled 2011, and now cancelled 2012. That's way too much.
-
Too much risk to the brand. "Red Bull gives you wings" does not work well with a pic of some poor schmuck having a fatal crash into a river.
-
Too much risk to the brand. "Red Bull gives you wings" does not work well with a pic of some poor schmuck having a fatal crash into a river.
There was only one crash in the history of red bull and the pilot was not injured.
-
they mentioned this last year, with that last close call, when one of the pilots nearly stalled his plane.
said they were gonna take the year off to review.
...and that last close call was just the last of a couple they had this year. Top it with the Reno cherry from this year, and who knows what the outcome of the review is gonna be. :(
The gov is considering making energy drink 18+ up here in quebec. They would only be for sale in SAQ (société des alcools), the state 'company' that sells the booze in QC.
Sad thing is, Red Bull is probabley one of the better ones IMO, even if they're the biggest.
-
What does Reno have to do with it? Different races, different planes, & different organization.
-
The gov is considering making energy drink 18+ up here in quebec. They would only be for sale in SAQ (société des alcools), the state 'company' that sells the booze in QC.
That isn't such a bad idea. A lot of kids get really sick drinking too many of those things.
-
What does Reno have to do with it? Different races, different planes, & different organization.
... same underwriters? :headscratch:
-
What does Reno have to do with it? Different races, different planes, & different organization.
everything... the general public is too stupid to know the differences. Hence why they always refer to the Reno Air race as an airshow.
-
post deleted
-
everything... the general public is too stupid to know the differences. Hence why they always refer to the Reno Air race as an airshow.
Red Bull are the ones who stopped the competition, no one did it for them.
-
Too much risk to the brand. "Red Bull gives you wings" does not work well with a pic of some poor schmuck having a fatal crash into a river.
i don't recall reading anything about a fatal crash? i thought the one in australia walked away, and the one in canada landed his plane?
-
There was only one crash in the history of red bull and the pilot was not injured.
if that's the one in australia, technically speaking, he didn't crash. he ditched. sorta.
-
What does Reno have to do with it? Different races, different planes, & different organization.
Same liability insurance(s).
-
if that's the one in australia, technically speaking, he didn't crash. he ditched. sorta.
Adilson Kindlemann, MXS-R, in Perth, Australia.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_x52M3mUFwHQ/S8eT9bmkeGI/AAAAAAAABLI/reiOkiVN1dg/s1600/red+bull+air+race+crash.JPG)
-
Same liability insurance(s).
How do you know that?
-
Its a good bet, theres only a limited pool of insurers prepared to underwrite risks like airshows and they will be very nervous after Reno.
-
Its a good bet, theres only a limited pool of insurers prepared to underwrite risks like airshows and they will be very nervous after Reno.
In Reno you have 70 year old aircraft that are pushed beyond the limit. Red Bull uses brand new aircraft that were specifically designed for the race. Therefore those races should not effect each other.
-
How about we skip the 20-questions and get to the point that I know more on how to legaly (or intelligently) throw a modern public aviation and/or acrobatic demonstration event. It's the same reason why you need a permit from the city to have a festival or protest in their park - not because the land isn't public, but because they don't want to be legaly liable for everything from here to the moon that may happen there unless they give it their official stamp of approval and thus take on that responcibility (and, usually, after you proove to have your event insured/bonded by some other means than the city's coffers) I don't know it all myself, and never have done it myself, but I know only the illegal or stupid hold one with thousands of spectators (paying or free admission) without any liability insurance.
-
In Reno you have 70 year old aircraft that are pushed beyond the limit. Red Bull uses brand new aircraft that were specifically designed for the race. Therefore those races should not effect each other.
Didn't Red Bull have a modified WWII-era Bearcat (F8F) under its sponsoring portfolio recently?
MachFly wins the Krust-O-Meter award this week.
MachFly, you should know better than I do, that both type of aircraft, 70-year gap or not, are classified in the same class by the FAA, yes? Infront of a judge and court of law, it's a potatoe-potato arguement.
-
In Reno you have 70 year old aircraft that are pushed beyond the limit. Red Bull uses brand new aircraft that were specifically designed for the race. Therefore those races should not effect each other.
not how it works :)
-
Didn't Red Bull have a modified WWII-era Bearcat (F8F) under its sponsoring portfolio recently?
They have a whole bunch of stuff, but the only aircraft that are used for races are MXS-Rs and Edge 540s. A few years back they had Extra 300, Extra 230, Su-26, Su-31, CAP 230, and a few others, right now it's just the MXS & the Edge.
MachFly wins the Krust-O-Meter award this week.
lol
-
There was only one crash in the history of red bull and the pilot was not injured.
Wasn't it a Red Bull race where two planes touched, one guy bailed out and the other died?
-
How about we skip the 20-questions and get to the point that I know more on how to legaly (or intelligently) throw a modern public aviation and/or acrobatic demonstration event. It's the same reason why you need a permit from the city to have a festival or protest in their park - not because the land isn't public, but because they don't want to be legaly liable for everything from here to the moon that may happen there unless they give it their official stamp of approval and thus take on that responcibility (and, usually, after you proove to have your event insured/bonded by some other means than the city's coffers) I don't know it all myself, and never have done it myself, but I know only the illegal or stupid hold one with thousands of spectators (paying or free admission) without any liability insurance.
Is that just in the US?
-
Wasn't it a Red Bull race where two planes touched, one guy bailed out and the other died?
I don't think so. In Red Bull you have only one plane on the "track". The only thing you can hit is a pylon which you can physically fly though.
-
not how it works :)
So how does it work?
If everything would be interconnected than all airshows would have be stopped and all air traffic around the world would be grounded.
-
The Red Bull boys were overdue for a safety standdown when they finally blew the whistle and kudos to them for doing it without needing the hindsight of a tragedy.
There are times you need to stop what you're doing and take a few steps backward to see the big picture in order to move forward. MachFly you really need to try it.
Safety isn't just a flag you raise and proclaim the status. It needs to be cultural in order to be effective and that goes for any industry not just aviation.
I expect they'll be back and if they do their job better than ever.
-
as far as insurance is concerned it is all connected, by the people willing to underwrite the risks. the big liability claims for Reno will impact rates for anything even slightly related to one degree or another. the closer the risk is to the Reno setup, the bigger the impact.
-
The Red Bull boys were overdue for a safety standdown when they finally blew the whistle and kudos to them for doing it without needing the hindsight of a tragedy.
There are times you need to stop what you're doing and take a few steps backward to see the big picture in order to move forward. MachFly you really need to try it.
Safety isn't just a flag you raise and proclaim the status. It needs to be cultural in order to be effective and that goes for any industry not just aviation.
I expect they'll be back and if they do their job better than ever.
I understand why they stopped it in 2010, and cancelling it for 2011 was probably justified as well. But why do it in 2012? A year and a half should be enough to correct everything they did not like.
-
as far as insurance is concerned it is all connected, by the people willing to underwrite the risks. the big liability claims for Reno will impact rates for anything even slightly related to one degree or another. the closer the risk is to the Reno setup, the bigger the impact.
I disagree. Unless this crash was something completely new that no one ever seen (which it was not), it should not have a large effect. It is not the first time an airplane crashed due to structural failure.
-
disagree if you like but thats how it works (I do this stuff for a living :))
-
disagree if you like but thats how it works (I do this stuff for a living :))
When you have an F1 crash NASCAR does not suffer and insurance prices for personal cars don't increase. It's the same thing here.
-
Red Bull are the ones who stopped the competition, no one did it for them.
but it doesnt matter. An accident of any kind at an airshow, air race or reno is all being precieved as the same thing by the general public. The general public fails to recognize that all three types of events are completely different from one another and all have different risks associated with each type.
I think Red Bull is just taking a hard look at all their ducks and are trying to get them back in a row if they woddled off. Both of the safety end of the spectrum and on the legal side of the spectrum.
-
trust me when a NASCAR racer comes off the track and kills 60 spectators, the rates wont just go up for that driver/team/car/venue. they will go up for every driver/team/car/venue, to one degree or another.
-
but it doesnt matter. An accident of any kind at an airshow, air race or reno is all being precieved as the same thing by the general public. The general public fails to recognize that all three types of events are completely different from one another and all have different risks associated with each type.
If the general public decides not to go to air races that's their right, but they don't have the power to stop them. FAA technically can, but only in US. Red Bull races are hosted all over the world, only a fraction of them happens in US.
-
When you have an F1 crash NASCAR does not suffer and insurance prices for personal cars don't increase. It's the same thing here.
thats not comparing apples to apples. first off nothing personal is changing for cars or insurance rates for aircraft. Its between different types of events. However even still its not quite the same because with aircraft, we are talking about a larger possible damage amount and fatality rate
If Nascar had a big crash that caused injury to 100's if people in the grandstand, i would bet money it would cause F1 insurance rates to increase as well.
-
11 people died at Reno, not 60 or 100.
I can't find the right car crash, but I'm sure there had to be some event where a car hit the audience. There were too many races for that not to happen.
-
When you have an F1 crash NASCAR does not suffer and insurance prices for personal cars don't increase. It's the same thing here.
When you have a serious motor sports crash that involves spectator injuries/fatalities, it does effect all sanctioning bodies, some more than others, but all to an extent.
The number of underwriters handling any form of motor sports events is rather small and limited. You need to understand things like actuarial pools and other risk management methods.
-
11 people died at Reno, not 60 or 100.
I can't find the right car crash, but I'm sure there had to be some event where a car hit the audience. There were too many races for that not to happen.
There have been several, and insurance premiums have risen after all of them. Trust me, I pay premiums every time I pay an entry fee. In fact, the insurance premium on my NHRA entry fee for each and every event has doubled in just a few years.
-
If the general public decides not to go to air races that's their right, but they don't have the power to stop them.
Yes they do. Not through laws but by practicalities.
The first lawsuit for the Reno Air Race is 26million. I believe that is for just one individual. Maybe a handful if that. Its is against the Reno Air Race organization, the P-51 team and someone else i believe. multiply 26million by 70ish (numbered injured or killed) and you can see this can be quite expensive. If the worse case scenario happens and they side in the favor of the families. They are looking at hundreds of millions of dollars worth of damage. That alone would put a stop to the Reno Air races forever.
The people that died that day knew it was a dangerous sport and it even says on the ticket about liability. But if this suit wins its going to open up a large can of worms for every event that has to do with Aviation.
Hell, at my college. Each flight school must be able to carry 5 millions dollar policies for every student and flight they do. 5 million dollars for a Cessna 172, Piper Warrior 3 or Diamond DA-20 that only cost ~150-250K each. Now imagine the rates an event must have. I can easily see some of these events carrying policies on the verge of 100million now. Now think about what they will have to carry in the future.
-
There have been several, and insurance premiums have risen after all of them. Trust me, I pay premiums every time I pay an entry fee. In fact, the insurance premium on my NHRA entry fee for each and every event has doubled in just a few years.
Did not know that.
Have they ever canceled anything for a long period of time?
-
Yes they do. Not through laws but by practicalities.
The first lawsuit for the Reno Air Race is 26million. I believe that is for just one individual. Maybe a handful if that. Its is against the Reno Air Race organization, the P-51 team and someone else i believe. multiply 26million by 70ish and you can see this can be quite expensive. If the worse case scenario happens and they side in the favor of the families. They are looking at hundreds of millions of dollars worth of damage. That alone would put a stop to the Reno Air races forever.
That's just wrong.
You should not be able to make money of someone's death.
The people that died that day knew it was a dangerous sport and it even says on the ticket about liability. But if this suit wins its going to open up a large can of worms for every event that has to do with Aviation.
Exactly, no one forced them to come and watch and no one said it was safe.
-
but I'm sure there had to be some event where a car hit the audience. There were too many races for that not to happen.
Exactly. However you must look at it historically too. When an accident happens at a car race, what do they do afterwards? they make changes to the track, maybe to the grandstand, etc to try and prevent it from happening again and they are able to make it almost fool proof.
They cant do that with accidents involving aircraft because every flight and every race or demo is different. At some point whether its from the Reno accident or a future accident, they will change it so much that it will take away from the whole experience and almost make it pointless to do the event in the first place. For Reno that means having the grandstands further away from the track which will take away from the whole experience of seeing the races overhead. realistically i could see the grand stands having to be half mile away from the track their, but at that distance, who really would want to go? i don't think i would. Personally, i don't think any one of those families should be able to sue over their injuries or losses either, but that is a different discussion.
-
Exactly. However you must look at it historically too. When an accident happens at a car race, what do they do afterwards? they make changes to the track, maybe to the grandstand, etc to try and prevent it from happening again and they are able to make it almost fool proof.
They cant do that with accidents involving aircraft because every flight and every race or demo is different. At some point whether its from the Reno accident or a future accident, they will change it so much that it will take away from the whole experience and almost make it pointless to do the event in the first place. For Reno that means having the grandstands further away from the track which will take away from the whole experience of seeing the races overhead. realistically i could see the grand stands having to be half mile away from the track their, but at that distance, who really would want to go? i don't think i would. Personally, i don't think any one of those families should be able to sue over their injuries or losses either, but that is a different discussion.
True.
In case of Red Bull though the planes do not fly over the crowd and quite often are actually lower than the crowd itself. Also in Red Bull you can change the track, just like for cars.
-
Exactly, no one forced them to come and watch and no one said it was safe.
But that's where the issue comes up. Even though they were warned, in this day and age, people still are able to sue over something that they were warned about.
I believe in this case now, they are trying to claim negligence on the part of all the deffending parties by saying that the aircraft was over mod-ed and was a crash waiting to happen and wasnt flown safely. If they can "prove" that (i use prove very loosly, its gonna really be BS their way to get a Judge to side with them), then every single crash from now on will be opened up to this type of suit. And as long as we have lawyers who come to "Help" the families and make money off of these cases, the lawsuits will always be there.
-
But that's where the issue comes up. Even though they were warned, in this day and age, people still are able to sue over something that they were warned about.
I believe in this case now, they are trying to claim negligence on the part of all the deffending parties by saying that the aircraft was over mod-ed and was a crash waiting to happen and wasnt flown safely. If they can "prove" that (i use prove very loosly, its gonna really be BS their way to get a Judge to side with them), then every single crash from now on will be opened up to this type of suit. And as long as we have lawyers who come to "Help" the families and make money off of these cases, the lawsuits will always be there.
I do wish the system worked different and you could not do that.
But if we discuss this particular topic the thread might get Skuzzified, so let's try to stay away from discussing the courts (might be looked at as politics).
-
True.
In case of Red Bull though the planes do not fly over the crowd and quite often are actually lower than the crowd itself. Also in Red Bull you can change the track, just like for cars.
true, but remember its not just people. Property damage could happen which also might result in fatalities. Red Bull does have one thing in its favor though which is the fact that most if not all of their "races" are held over water which should mean limited potential damage, but there still is that off chance on the way to the track something happens.
-
true, but remember its not just people. Property damage could happen which also might result in fatalities. Red Bull does have one thing in its favor though which is the fact that most if not all of their "races" are held over water which should mean limited potential damage, but there still is that off chance on the way to the track something happens.
Yeah but there is always a risk in property damage, no need to cancel the race because of it.
-
Adilson Kindlemann, MXS-R, in Perth, Australia.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_x52M3mUFwHQ/S8eT9bmkeGI/AAAAAAAABLI/reiOkiVN1dg/s1600/red+bull+air+race+crash.JPG)
c'mon dood.....i know you saw the video. he suffered an accelerated stall, and recovered said stall, mere seconds before hitting the water. he hit wheels first, wings level, low speed, and when the engine cowling caught the water, the plane flipped. he was uninjured(if i recall correctly), and his airplane was repairable.
if you have better luck than i do with the search function, you can find another thread about it right on this bbs, in which the video was linked./
-
Didn't Red Bull have a modified WWII-era Bearcat (F8F) under its sponsoring portfolio recently?
MachFly wins the Krust-O-Meter award this week.
MachFly, you should know better than I do, that both type of aircraft, 70-year gap or not, are classified in the same class by the FAA, yes? Infront of a judge and court of law, it's a potatoe-potato arguement.
does that mean that the judge is mensa? :noid
-
Wasn't it a Red Bull race where two planes touched, one guy bailed out and the other died?
i think that was an airshow in the uk....think it was a pony and a skyraider that touched......
-
c'mon dood.....i know you saw the video. he suffered an accelerated stall, and recovered said stall, mere seconds before hitting the water. he hit wheels first, wings level, low speed, and when the engine cowling caught the water, the plane flipped. he was uninjured(if i recall correctly), and his airplane was repairable.
if you have better luck than i do with the search function, you can find another thread about it right on this bbs, in which the video was linked./
There you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rR68OIpcX4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rR68OIpcX4)
-
The gov is considering making energy drink 18+ up here in quebec. They would only be for sale in SAQ (société des alcools), the state 'company' that sells the booze in QC.
Yeah, the LCBO of Quebec. Ilike that place; they have funny signs.
"l'alcool est illégale sous l'age de 19-- meme si ta maman te dite que c'est d'accord."
"Alchohol is illegal under 19-- even if your mummy says it's ok."
:rofl
-
Alejandro Maclean was killed last summer in Spain not in conjunction with a race though he was a race pilot.
That had nothing to do with the Duxford Airshow P-51/A1 collision.
As I said before the Red Bull boys were long overdue for a safety stand down. If you fail to see how/why with their high incident rate (to be expected, to a point) can be reduced and lessons learned applied in the interest of safety you're not looking very hard.
I expect them to be back, exciting, outstanding entertainment and safer than ever in the future.
-
There you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rR68OIpcX4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rR68OIpcX4)
try looking at this one....
http://www.redbullairrace.com/cs/Satellite/en_air/Video/Crash-dive-Down-Under-021242832365305
took me a minute to find it.
to the left down slightly is the onboard camera........it shows slow motion, in which you can see the wings stall. you can also see the recovery, just before he contacts the water.
http://avstop.com/news_april_2010/red_bull_air_race_plane_crash_in_perth_pilot_adilson_kindlemann_ok.htm
here's matt halls same stall, only htat he managed to recover in time to keep flying. you can see it at about the 20 second mark.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CB27K-wIsM&feature=related
and another angle near the end of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO7BuPG_vVo
these guys are incredibly skilled airmen. they know what they're doing. golfer has this right. it's a very good thing that they chose to stop this series for a time.
as much as i'd like to be able to be watching them race, it doesn't matter 1 year, or 5 years.....when they come back, they will do so with a vengeance, they will do so safely, and they will more than likely make the series better than it ever was.
-
these guys are incredibly skilled airmen. they know what they're doing. golfer has this right. it's a very good thing that they chose to stop this series for a time.
as much as i'd like to be able to be watching them race, it doesn't matter 1 year, or 5 years.....when they come back, they will do so with a vengeance, they will do so safely, and they will more than likely make the series better than it ever was.
I never said that they should have never stopped them, I said that a year and a half should have been enough for them to make the appropriate changed in order to make it safer.
-
I never said that they should have never stopped them, I said that a year and a half should have been enough for them to make the appropriate changed in order to make it safer.
i understand that, but i suspect that there's a LOT more than you or i know about that they need to look into.
-
i understand that, but i suspect that there's a LOT more than you or i know about that they need to look into.
That's possible.
-
i think that was an airshow in the uk....think it was a pony and a skyraider that touched......
No, it was an air race, the aircraft were Extras and Sukhois and what not. I'm pretty sure it was a Red Bull race but I can't find anything on it.
-
No, it was an air race, the aircraft were Extras and Sukhois and what not. I'm pretty sure it was a Red Bull race but I can't find anything on it.
that would be due to the fact that during the red bull air races, there is only ONE aircraft in the air at a time.
-
that would be due to the fact that during the red bull air races, there is only ONE aircraft in the air at a time.
Found the one I was thinking of. It was a Grand Prix race in Malta: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5cbfePm1q4&feature=related
-
Too much risk to the brand. "Red Bull gives you wings" does not work well with a pic of some poor schmuck having a fatal crash into a river.
that would be truth in advertisement as the guy would get wings in heaven of course the small print should say unless you are a sinner.
semp