Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Guppy35 on November 17, 2011, 12:46:20 AM
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I'm curious if any of you have any documentation on the type of training hours a German fighter pilot got prior to going to an operational squadron. both prior to the war and by the end.
As an RAF history guy I've read the stories of the guys going into the B of B with only 10-15 hours on Spits or Hurricanes. I have had the logbook of an RCAF Spit pilot for a long time and he joined his first operational squadron, 416 on December 9, 1941. At the time he joined them he had 208 hours total flight time of which 66 were dual and 142 were solo. His total Spitfire time when he went on ops was 42 hours.
I came into possession of a P51 pilots logs today and was looking at them. He flew VLR missions off Iwo with the 21st FG. He had 470 total hours flying time when he joined his first operational squadron of which 230 were single engine solo time of which 150 hours were in the P-51
I'd be curious as to whether the numbers for the early LW drivers correspond to the late in the game USAAF pilots and when the pendulum swung in favor of the Allies in training of their pilots.
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I know they exist and I know others have cited the hours. It dwindled significantly to almost nothing by war's end. LW pilots before the war and in the beginning phases were some of the most practiced (going by hours alone) in the world. Without it in front of me I couldn't say how many hours, but from reading a number of things over the years I know they're to be found... somewhere.
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moin
till 1942 the german fighter pilot get 150-200 houers bevor he get operational
the bomber pilot 220-270houers.
at the beginning of 1944 the fighter pilot takes only round about 160houers.
and later 112houers.
at the end of war the fliing shools get closed and the teachers wer put to the front.
i font the info on this side.
http://weltkrieg2.de/Geschichte/Kriegsgliederungen/Drittes-Reich/Piloten-Training.htm
cu christian
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i font the info on this side.
http://weltkrieg2.de/Geschichte/Kriegsgliederungen/Drittes-Reich/Piloten-Training.htm
... which is a literal excerpt from the German translation of Alfred Price' "Luftwaffe Handbook, 1939-1945" (New York 1977), but without any reference to it. ;)
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I came into possession of a P51 pilots logs today and was looking at them. He flew VLR missions off Iwo with the 21st FG. He had 470 total hours flying time when he joined his first operational squadron of which 230 were single engine solo time of which 150 hours were in the P-51
In Spring 1944, after the B-schools had been disbanded, a new fighter pilot would have had:
- 2 hours in gliders
- 50 hours in basic trainers (for example Bü 131)
- 40 hours in advanced trainers and (mostly obsolete) fighters
- 20 hours combat training in the Ergänzungsgruppe.
This was the official schedule, but in reality it could have been even less depending on circumstances, especially fuel allocation. And often the combat training in the Ergänzungsgruppe was simply combat. So the actual quality of new pilots posted to a combat unit was varying a lot.
Basically, it was by then a system that's usually attributed to the Soviet Military: Throw badly trained recruits at the enemy and see who survives.
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In Spring 1944, after the B-schools had been disbanded, a new fighter pilot would have had:
- 2 hours in gliders
- 50 hours in basic trainers (for example Bü 131)
- 40 hours in advanced trainers and (mostly obsolete) fighters
- 20 hours combat training in the Ergänzungsgruppe.
This was the official schedule, but in reality it could have been even less depending on circumstances, especially fuel allocation. And often the combat training in the Ergänzungsgruppe was simply combat. So the actual quality of new pilots posted to a combat unit was varying a lot.
Basically, it was by then a system that's usually attributed to the Soviet Military: Throw badly trained recruits at the enemy and see who survives.
So essentially the sides flip flopped with the Germans losing their experienced pilots and throwing poorly trained pilots in, while the Allies started with poorly trained pilots but held on long enough to get their training programs up to speed to where they were sending far better trained pilots at the Luftwaffe.
It's what I figured, I'd just never seen any sort of number of hours. That the 1945 Allied pilot had more then 3 times the hours in a single engine fighter then the 1941 trained Allied fighter pilot says a lot too.
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So essentially the sides flip flopped with the Germans losing their experienced pilots and throwing poorly trained pilots in, while the Allies started with poorly trained pilots but held on long enough to get their training programs up to speed to where they were sending far better trained pilots at the Luftwaffe.
It's one of the things perfectly highlighting the resource issue the Luftwaffe (and the whole Wehrmacht) faced from day one. A very quick and spectacular rearmament by concentrating more on width than depth. Lack of resources and supplies (as well as strategic thinking) resulting in a force more suited for fast hard strikes than a prolonged war. So little fuel fuel that you can either use it for training pilots or to fight a battle, but not both at the same time. A "heroic" philosophy and culture which burned up experienced in the frontline instead of using their experience in training new replacements.
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It's one of the things perfectly highlighting the resource issue the Luftwaffe (and the whole Wehrmacht) faced from day one. A very quick and spectacular rearmament by concentrating more on width than depth. Lack of resources and supplies (as well as strategic thinking) resulting in a force more suited for fast hard strikes than a prolonged war. So little fuel fuel that you can either use it for training pilots or to fight a battle, but not both at the same time. A "heroic" philosophy and culture which burned up experienced in the frontline instead of using their experience in training new replacements.
probably the best summing up in brief of the german war machine of wwii i have ever read!
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I believe this is the graph we're all thinking of. It appears in the report of the British Bombing Survey Unit, however I believe the original source is the USSBS.
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad212/mhuxt/training.jpg)
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(http://www.allworldwars.com/image/003/DefeatGAF03.jpg)
http://www.allworldwars.com/The%20Defeat%20of%20the%20German%20Air%20Force.html (http://www.allworldwars.com/The%20Defeat%20of%20the%20German%20Air%20Force.html)
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Thanks for the link Timppa.
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It is worth noting that early in the war Luftwaffe pilots graduated from advanced trainers like the Arado 96 straight into single-seat Bf 109s and Fw 190s. Later in the war they cut down a lot of the time needed for the pilots to familiarize themselves with the 109 or 190 by making two-seat versions of the fighters. About 150 fighters were converted into Bf 109G-12 and Fw 190S-5/S-8 two-seat trainers allowing much of the time normally spent in advanced trainers to be spent in actual fighter aircraft.
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Another difference between German and US Air Force personnel management was rotation.
German pilots flew indefinitely. US pilots rotated out after the nth mission. This allowed combat pilots to rotate back to the US to train the next classes.
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Another difference between German and US Air Force personnel management was rotation.
German pilots flew indefinitely. US pilots rotated out after the nth mission. This allowed combat pilots to rotate back to the US to train the next classes.
and to get a rest and unwind the mind, the germans didn't get this. if the German pilots weren't flying they were hiding in bomb shelters. their stress and adrenaline levels were always running at maximum load. its amazing how much knowing you have a goal, such as a set time limit in combat or just a few weeks away from combat to rest, can do for a persons moral. its also a big plus to your mental state when you know that your family is safe living thousands of miles away from the fight as apposed to knowing that your family is huddled up in a dark hole somewhere as the bombs fall and the world around them colapses. just the psychological strains on a person knowing their families are in constant immanent danger will destroy the will to fight of any man, then throw in sleep deprevation food shortages the constant threat of death from above ect ect and no matter how great the soul of the man he will burn out and start to make fatal mistakes.
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and to get a rest and unwind the mind, the germans didn't get this. if the German pilots weren't flying they were hiding in bomb shelters. their stress and adrenaline levels were always running at maximum load. its amazing how much knowing you have a goal, such as a set time limit in combat or just a few weeks away from combat to rest, can do for a persons moral. its also a big plus to your mental state when you know that your family is safe living thousands of miles away from the fight as apposed to knowing that your family is huddled up in a dark hole somewhere as the bombs fall and the world around them colapses. just the psychological strains on a person knowing their families are in constant immanent danger will destroy the will to fight of any man, then throw in sleep deprevation food shortages the constant threat of death from above ect ect and no matter how great the soul of the man he will burn out and start to make fatal mistakes.
You've become a late war guy. Remember the Poles, Dutch, Norwegians, Belgians, French, British, Yugoslavs, Greeks and Russians. They went through this too.
- oldman (and that was just in ETO)
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and to get a rest and unwind the mind, the germans didn't get this. if the German pilots weren't flying they were hiding in bomb shelters. their stress and adrenaline levels were always running at maximum load. its amazing how much knowing you have a goal, such as a set time limit in combat or just a few weeks away from combat to rest, can do for a persons moral. its also a big plus to your mental state when you know that your family is safe living thousands of miles away from the fight as apposed to knowing that your family is huddled up in a dark hole somewhere as the bombs fall and the world around them colapses. just the psychological strains on a person knowing their families are in constant immanent danger will destroy the will to fight of any man, then throw in sleep deprevation food shortages the constant threat of death from above ect ect and no matter how great the soul of the man he will burn out and start to make fatal mistakes.
Sounds like ranger school, minus the family hiding in bunkers. :noid
I've read a few accounts (cannot cite anything in particular, sorry) where, towards the end of the war, the pilots sent into battle were as green as grass. Hiding aircraft beneath highway overpasses was not an uncommon practice, either as they were running out of intact airfields, as well.
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I know they exist and I know others have cited the hours. It dwindled significantly to almost nothing by war's end. LW pilots before the war and in the beginning phases were some of the most practiced (going by hours alone) in the world. Without it in front of me I couldn't say how many hours, but from reading a number of things over the years I know they're to be found... somewhere.
Pre-war Germany, wasn't a popular activity of the not-so-poor glidding in gliders off the alps? I've read how many if not all pre-war pilots were experienced glider pilots before joining the military and Luftwaffe (*speculation* - possibley a strict prequalification?... if so, then perhaps they were the first/only organized air corps to require applicants to have previous experience?...).
I know some of the most successful German combat aces were noted or successful glider pilots before the war too.
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The gliding emphasis pre-war was due to the limits and sanctions on building actual airplanes with engines. These were soon thrown off and the emphasis moved back to aircraft production. The intent was always to gear up towards an air force again.
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I'd be curious as to whether the numbers for the early LW drivers correspond to the late in the game USAAF pilots and when the pendulum swung in favor of the Allies in training of their pilots.
I'll have to find the name of the report again but there was a USAAF report done after the war in 1946 that compared the training of Japanese and German pilots against US pilots. According to the report, the USAAF didn't reach parity with the training and experience level of both Germany and Japan until 1943, which according to the report was the start of the decline training and pilot quality for both Axis air forces, while US training continued to improve and then surpass.
ack-ack
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A superb book that gives some insight into this subject is: "I Flew for the Führer" by Heinz Knoke. One of the best aviation books I've ever read.
230G/35 Whelen
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I'll have to find the name of the report again but there was a USAAF report done after the war in 1946 that compared the training of Japanese and German pilots against US pilots. According to the report, the USAAF didn't reach parity with the training and experience level of both Germany and Japan until 1943, which according to the report was the start of the decline training and pilot quality for both Axis air forces, while US training continued to improve and then surpass.
ack-ack
It only makes sense as the US wasn't prepared at all in the beginning and had to get up to speed. I was just really surprised at how many hours that 51 driver had in 45 before he flew his first combat sortie.
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I'm curious if any of you have any documentation on the type of training hours a German fighter pilot got prior to going to an operational squadron. both prior to the war and by the end.
As an RAF history guy I've read the stories of the guys going into the B of B with only 10-15 hours on Spits or Hurricanes. I have had the logbook of an RCAF Spit pilot for a long time and he joined his first operational squadron, 416 on December 9, 1941. At the time he joined them he had 208 hours total flight time of which 66 were dual and 142 were solo. His total Spitfire time when he went on ops was 42 hours.
I came into possession of a P51 pilots logs today and was looking at them. He flew VLR missions off Iwo with the 21st FG. He had 470 total hours flying time when he joined his first operational squadron of which 230 were single engine solo time of which 150 hours were in the P-51
I'd be curious as to whether the numbers for the early LW drivers correspond to the late in the game USAAF pilots and when the pendulum swung in favor of the Allies in training of their pilots.
Depends on month/year.
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A good look at the strategic issues of the air war is Richard Overy's The Air War: 1939-1945 (http://www.amazon.com/Air-War-1939-1945-Cornerstones-Military/dp/1574887165/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322584046&sr=8-1). Although the book is based on primary sources and well-documented with notes, I found it very well written and an easy read. Among other topics, it compares and contrasts the approaches that each major power took regarding production, planning, training, and application of scientific research. Highly recommended.
Overy's section on training actually reminded me of a comment that Neal Stephenson made in his novel "Cryptonomicon" to the effect that the Axis lost because they worshipped Ares while the Allies worshipped Athena. ;)
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Bungay in Most Dangerous Enemy, regarding Milch's inspection tour of late August 1940:
In it he comments on the inadequate experience of the new pilots being rushed to the front from the training schools, whom he had found to be of very variable quality. The fighter Geschwader were complaining that they were getting boys who had only done ten landings in a 109, and no firing training with cannon. Milch made a particular point of noting that green pilots were sent as replacements to Erprobungsgruppe 210, which he thought, in view of the unit's special role, particularly aberrant.