Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tilt on November 21, 2011, 08:23:47 AM
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I wonder how the pie diagram would look re ride popularity if vehicles's were thrown in the same pie chart as aircraft.
How does e.g. a Panzer MKIV compare to a P51d in terms of usage?
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Considering you can up, die, up, die, up, die, in a perfectly normal GV fight within 5 minutes and be happy, while possibly getting some kills yourself, it doesn't compare to airplanes. You'd be surprised the numbers the Panzer got back when it was the main ride. Something like 30,000+ kills per tour if I recall.
It's because the 2 games are totally different in the dynamics of how you play them. Sorties take a lot longer in airplanes, and because of that you're going to have less deaths (and somebody somewhere is getting less kills) so the overall numbers are much lower.
This is just pulled from memory, but I did some personal comparisons a while back before all the new tanks were added (after T-34/85, though).
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I wonder how the pie diagram would look re ride popularity if vehicles's were thrown in the same pie chart as aircraft.
How does e.g. a Panzer MKIV compare to a P51d in terms of usage?
Well taking from my stats I would say could be used a "generic" idea
Most tanks killed I have in order:
Panzer 4H 610
Panzer 4F 238
T34/85 186
Wirbelwind 160
M4a3(75) 117
M4a3(76) 94
T34/76 63
M18 59
Osti 31
Panther 29
Tiger 29
Sherman VC 13
King Tiger 2
I would suspect this would be a ground base, Panzer 4 might get the most sorties and deaths, while I would say the higher perk tanks get all the kills. However some like the Sherman Firefly just rarely come out of a hanger.
I would say the Panther has the highest Kill/Death, unconfirmed but I would suspect it, while Tiger/King Tiger are respectably up there.
Taking into perspective even more, here's a K/D ratio in each vehicle based on my stats.
King Tiger 56
Panther 31.125
Tiger 15
M18 7
T34/85 6.93
Panzer4F 5.06
Clearly you can see the reason why tanks are perked and for what reason. Of course these stats are based on my playing, so it wouldn't be accurate to judge an entire arena based on it, just gives an idea.
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kill-to-death is somewhat subjective. Lusche uses kills+deaths total. So while the Panther might have a better ratio, the Panzer has way more use (simply in terms of raw numbers used). I think that's the chart Tilt was thinking of.
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Considering you can up, die, up, die, up, die, in a perfectly normal GV fight within 5 minutes and be happy
And that's why the arena K/H for GV's is about twice as high as for fighters or attackers. :old:
Generally speaking, GV in the LW arena have 20-25% of the total play time and about 40% of all scoring kills. For a detailed analysis (with literally dozens of charts :banana:) you will have to wait until early January
Oh, and as there are much less choices in Gv's than in planes, we can not really compare a particular plane to a particular tank. But I can say: More pilots do hop into a P-51D at least once during a tour than into any other plane or GV. :airplane:
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can you measure play time per ride or even measure play time fighters v play time gv's? or any trends over the past years of player time fighters v player time gv's.
I would be interested in that.
............. and of course I can compare them. (love it when folk say you cant this or you cant that) However conclusions drawn from any comparison have to be qualified.
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can you measure play time per ride
no.
or even measure play time fighters v play time gv's?
yes, as you can see by my post above. ;)
or any trends over the past years of player time fighters v player time gv's.
I would be interested in that.
Patience, young grashopper! :old:
............. and of course I can compare them. (love it when folk say you cant this or you cant that)
Then go ahead! More than 130 tours full of data are waiting for you on the score pages :devil
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That is the definition of "you can't compare them" tilt :)
It means comparing them holds no real value because they are qualitatively different :)
If you wish to, feel free. You just won't have much to conclude after comparing because they are too different.
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ALL hail Lusche the Pie King!
(http://www.367thdynamitegang.com/upload/pieking.jpg)
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Well taking from my stats I would say could be used a "generic" idea
Most tanks killed I have in order:
Panzer 4H 610
Panzer 4F 238
T34/85 186
Wirbelwind 160
M4a3(75) 117
M4a3(76) 94
T34/76 63
M18 59
Osti 31
Panther 29
Tiger 29
Sherman VC 13
King Tiger 2
I would suspect this would be a ground base, Panzer 4 might get the most sorties and deaths, while I would say the higher perk tanks get all the kills. However some like the Sherman Firefly just rarely come out of a hanger.
I would say the Panther has the highest Kill/Death, unconfirmed but I would suspect it, while Tiger/King Tiger are respectably up there.
Taking into perspective even more, here's a K/D ratio in each vehicle based on my stats.
King Tiger 56
Panther 31.125
Tiger 15
M18 7
T34/85 6.93
Panzer4F 5.06
Clearly you can see the reason why tanks are perked and for what reason. Of course these stats are based on my playing, so it wouldn't be accurate to judge an entire arena based on it, just gives an idea.
:rofl Are you seriously taking your camper stats as a model of how effective a tank is??? :rofl You really are high on yourself. :aok
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:rofl Are you seriously taking your camper stats as a model of how effective a tank is??? :rofl You really are high on yourself. :aok
Believe whatever you want :aok
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:rofl Are you seriously taking your camper stats as a model of how effective a tank is??? :rofl You really are high on yourself. :aok
This guy always has something to say not too smart but he talks alot of smack. :lol :salute Butcher
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This guy always has something to say not too smart but he talks alot of smack. :lol :salute Butcher
Nobody is talking smack, fact is he never faced me in a tank and wants to troll a BBS, which is understandable.
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I should have specified "His failed troll attempts on the BBS" .
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I should have specified "His failed troll attempts on the BBS" .
Look who is talking.
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ALL hail Lusche the Pie King!
(http://www.367thdynamitegang.com/upload/pieking.jpg)
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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What % of tanking is camping anyway?
Serious question, I never tank if I can help it.
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What % of tanking is camping anyway?
Serious question, I never tank if I can help it.
Cynically speaking, 99%.
:rofl
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What % of tanking is camping anyway?
Serious question, I never tank if I can help it.
I'd offer a guesstimate of 75% or better are the result of camping. Very few maneuvering tankers out there, but there are some great static shots in the game. :aok
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<< not considered a tanker... bait yes.
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Well taking from my stats I would say could be used a "generic" idea
Most tanks killed I have in order:
Panzer 4H 610
Panzer 4F 238
T34/85 186
Wirbelwind 160
M4a3(75) 117
M4a3(76) 94
T34/76 63
M18 59
Osti 31
Panther 29
Tiger 29
Sherman VC 13
King Tiger 2
I would suspect this would be a ground base, Panzer 4 might get the most sorties and deaths, while I would say the higher perk tanks get all the kills. However some like the Sherman Firefly just rarely come out of a hanger.
I would say the Panther has the highest Kill/Death, unconfirmed but I would suspect it, while Tiger/King Tiger are respectably up there.
Taking into perspective even more, here's a K/D ratio in each vehicle based on my stats.
King Tiger 56
Panther 31.125
Tiger 15
M18 7
T34/85 6.93
Panzer4F 5.06
Clearly you can see the reason why tanks are perked and for what reason. Of course these stats are based on my playing, so it wouldn't be accurate to judge an entire arena based on it, just gives an idea.
Weren't you just telling someone on 200 last night you didn't look at your score... lol
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Cynically speaking, 99%.
:rofl
Maybe not %99... but not too far off. Instead of engagements where two forces "meet in the middle" and battle over a piece of ground, etc, one side tends to camp a spawn point and call it "battle". Granted, the front is always going to move due to individual tanks competing for lanes of fire, but ultimately the engagement could stay in the middle.
The best tank battles I've ever been a part of have been in a tank town (TT), and it was on the Trinity map. The lanes of fire were wide open, spawn points were not easy to camp, and there were anywhere from 5-15 players on each side. Each player had a chance to move and get a position, there was no spawn camping. Once in while someone would take an M18 way out on a flank and get a few kills, but a near miss with an HE round took care of them. For most of the battle I'm thinking of I had a Panther IV H and was doing well (3v1 KD ratio) at long ranges (2000 yard-ish). The clear optics of the German sights were helping me against the T34's for sure. It was the Panthers and M4/76's that were getting me.
Sincerely though, it is too bad that more people do not advertise on vox 200 to meet in TT, especially on the Trinity map. The terrain is perfect for tank battles and the A20's, IL-2's, and other battle-dampers are far and few between.
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I tank a lot and I usually count the number of friendly players in tanks on the battlefield (there is often only one tank battle on the map) and it usually comes to about 20 to 25% of friendlies in "flight" (which matches Lusche's numbers very well).
Although I do not like spawn camping at all, I'd say virtually 80% of fighting is spawn camping. It is inevitable that the fight will move until it reaches a spawn and then stick there. The dynamics pretty much force it.
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Weren't you just telling someone on 200 last night you didn't look at your score... lol
If you read the beginning you'd see why I posted the numbers. :bhead
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I'd offer a guesstimate of 75% or better are the result of camping. Very few maneuvering tankers out there, but there are some great static shots in the game. :aok
Very true, less then 10 tankers I know of that could maneuver and hit a moving tank under 2k at full speed. Pretty slim numbers, I would say barely 20 or so tankers could sit static and hit a target up to 2k in 1-2 shots.
Overall tanking has always had 60%-75% on defense vs 30-25% attacking, mainly because you have aircraft and ords at your disposal, where an attacking force has easily less then 30% numbers to attack with, unless ords and VH go down then these numbers can dwindle down to pretty much nothing once the defenders get into a camping position.
Often more then none if ords are taken out, the ground attackers can overwhelm defenders if they arn't prepared (for example the common tank battles like V86, V135 from previous maps)
Most people will not go on the offense in a ground vehicle and I am not sure exactly why, but I would pin it on the lack of support or airpower.
I rarely have seen an evened out tank fight, only 4-5 times a tour this will happen, mainly one side will make a push and continue the attack, where most attacks will decline after the first failed take.
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Most people will not go on the offense in a ground vehicle and I am not sure exactly why, but I would pin it on the lack of support or airpower.
If so, it's probably because spawning into enemy territory is a death sentence. That doesn't mean all those players are generally afraid to die, but having practically no chance to "get home" (land your kills) isn't exactly motivating, especially as the defender has all the advantages - on a VField he can simply wait for you, listening to your engine noises (and possibly a friend in gun or tower god mode spotting), probably has put out some supps first and even if that fails he's sitting on concrete to tower out if you killed his turret. Under usual circumstances, it'S low risk (defender) vs total risk (attacker).
To me, the only great tank combat area besides classic tank town on trinity were those maps with strings of dual VField setups, where two fields hostile to each other were facing each other, making maneuver warfare much more probable and effective and gave both sides a chance for a retreat.
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i still remember one of the first and last tank sortie i took...i roll out and head to where some friendlies are...well low and behold i see a tank behind an nme hanger just popping tanks as they spawn in the hanger, he had over 50 kills........
straight up some of the lamest game play i ever saw.
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wasn't it "pizza"?
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What % of tanking is camping anyway?
Serious question, I never tank if I can help it.
Probably way up there. Not a chance its below 60%, probably not above 90%. Most realistic range is between 70-85%, with 77.5% being the average.
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It does seem to me that the huge majority of GV combat is "ambush" whether it be spawn camping or players manouvering to a position where they can rack up kills on incoming GV's. (moving to another position when detected)
I would agree with Lusche that attacking GV fields where stuff can spawn behind you seems to be quite a different game play compared to when this is not the case.
Ambush does seem to allow some players to rack up serious kill streaks and this seems to become then the prime game reward whereby those so motivated really do not want the battle to finish thru capture/conquest. In the air combat its very much like vulching but vulching is limited through the expenditure of munitions (no inplace resupply possible) and the eventual re establishment of AA. With re supply "ambush" can continue ad infinitum.
I am sure some also cherish the GV combat higher than the kill streak.
Given that the majority of GV game play is based around a some what repetitive format then why does it attract the playing hours it does? (in comparison to Fighter time or even Fighter & Attack time)
I await Lusches stats with interest.
If a significant % of players enjoy camping / ambush GV tactics and spend a large % of their time doing just this, what does this say about the wishes of the game playing populace as a whole?
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Given that the majority of GV game play is based around a some what repetitive format then why does it attract the playing hours it does? (in comparison to Fighter time or even Fighter & Attack time)
Maybe it's ego. You can get killed by campers hundreds of times a tour and yet return the favor to others when you get your chance. Then land your 50 kills and everyone cheers. Tankers don't seem to mind getting camped (vulched) over and over, yet strangely freak out when bombed otw to town. Aside from vulching, it requires some skill to consistently rack up kills in the air. Not to say there aren't skilled tankers. Another reason is the sortie time is much shorter. Die, up, die, up, die, up, die, up, kill. Eureka! :)
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It'd be nice to be able to egress once the attack is over, or out of ammo, mission complete, etc. As it is now, like Loosch pointed out, when a person spawns to an off field place unless that field is captured the attacking gv's are usually lost in some way shape or form.
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It'd be nice to be able to egress once the attack is over, or out of ammo, mission complete, etc. As it is now, like Loosch pointed out, when a person spawns to an off field place unless that field is captured the attacking gv's are usually lost in some way shape or form.
It's not fun, but you can drive 6K away from any nme and land successfully..
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Lol, GV'ers HATE campers. When a camp is about to be put in place, the screams are inevetable. At times, the effort expended to uncamp a spawn is astounding.
That being said, GV'ers cry about bombers louder on the forums because theres a LOT less they can do about it while in a GV.
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It does seem to me that the huge majority of GV combat is "ambush" whether it be spawn camping or players manouvering to a position where they can rack up kills on incoming GV's. (moving to another position when detected)
Ambush and spawn camping are two different things. Ambushing, say a choke point, from a hull down position is a valid real life technique. Tanks suddenly appearing out of thin air to be shot down like metal ducks at a carnival is not. If you equate ambushing and spawn camping as equally awful, what GV technique do you think is "valid"? Jousting in the open?
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Ambush and spawn camping are two different things. Ambushing, say a choke point, from a hull down position is a valid real life technique. Tanks suddenly appearing out of thin air to be shot down like metal ducks at a carnival is not. If you equate ambushing and spawn camping as equally awful, what GV technique do you think is "valid"? Jousting in the open?
Yes they are different in detail. However both involve a stationary gv picking of other gv's as they come into view. It is not a criticism of either one or the other I do not wish to infer one is valid and the other is not. (I leave that to others)
My focus is on the difference in the game play dynamic (action and reward)
The game play feed back to the individual is much the same once he /she has chosen their spot its "wait, point and shoot, then repeat" this game play dynamic is massively different to one based on ACM.
Hence going back to the original point............... if "Ambush" (via spawn or choke point) is (or should I refer to it as a "wait, point and shoot, then repeat) the focus of 80-90% of gv action then it would show that the prefered gv combat style rewards quite a different game play dynamic as does typical ACM figher combat.
I suppose jousting in the open would be closer to figher acm but I do not try to insinuate that it is more or less valid. (i merely observe)
If you were HTC and the market trend (what the player did in game most) in game play dynamic was toward "ambush" in GV's and vulching in aircraft how would this influence the further development of the game?
In fact AH rewards kills it does not reward technique................. why?