Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: mthrockmor on December 08, 2011, 09:59:22 AM
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OK, what I am about to ask is based on numerous John Wayne movies, which may be my answer right off the bat.
I know with many early war birds the canopy allowed for the canopy to be opened during flight. I am thinking of the P-40, F6F, etc. What about allowing this option as a command with certain birds in flight. I can only imagine being an F6F pilot, having crappy visibility due to those massive bars in the way, rolling back the canopy for much better vision. (And yes, Greebo seems to have this resolved somehow.) What about allowing the canopy to be rolled back and the visibilty improve correspondly? I would guess for some birds it would go from obstructed to something closer to the bubble canopy of the P-51D.
Thoughts?
Boo
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It could only be done at slow speeds with steady orientation. In AH it would be so badly abused and left open all the time (especially in dogfights).
In reality, it was opened on final approaches so that if you crashed, or you missed the deck and splashed down, you could ESCAPE that much more quickly.
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Like Krusty said, there would be airspeed limitations on having the canopy open. An open canopy is more drag so a performance loss would ensue and if modeled correctly the pilot is going to be buffeted around quite a bit.
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We can do it like the flaps. Have it automatically close the the speed increases.
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We can do it like the flaps. Have it automatically close the the speed increases.
There's a thought. And if we're going to have an open canopy can we also have head positions for an open canopy? It would be handy as heck to lean out and look around the nose on my Hog.
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^^ I would prefer to see it done more like how the landing gear works. can only be opened at or below a certain speed, and will seperate from the plane if left open above a certain speed.
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^^ I would prefer to see it done more like how the landing gear works. can only be opened at or below a certain speed, and will seperate from the plane if left open above a certain speed.
Whats to say that somebody wont intentionally leave it open to be ripped off. An auto-closing canopy is the only way to make it work.
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Whats to say that somebody wont intentionally leave it open to be ripped off. An auto-closing canopy is the only way to make it work.
Technically that could work, if you rip off the canopy you'll be a good 50kts slower (maybe more).
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And if we're going to have an open canopy can we also have head positions for an open canopy? It would be handy as heck to lean out and look around the nose on my Hog.
+1
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We can do it like the flaps. Have it automatically close the the speed increases.
Or, even more realistic, treat it like landing gear - have it create significant drag or (if bubble canopy) come flying completely off, possibly fataly damaging your plane or pilot... ontop of the increased drag.... :devil
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Or, even more realistic, treat it landing gear - have it create significant drag or (if bubble canopy) come flying completely off, possibly fataly damaging your plane or pilot... ontop of the increased drag.... :devil
I doubt it would wound the pilot but the plane could certainly be damaged, and it would create a lot of drag.
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I doubt it would wound the pilot but the plane could certainly be damaged, and it would create a lot of drag.
About a year and a half ago we had our museum's Spit XIV canopy (same canopy as on the spit IX, XVI and many other models too) grace one of our pilot's forhead with about a dozen stiches before narrowly missing the vertical stabilizer (we thank the pilot's thick skull for defleting it) and shattering on the runway behind him while on takeoff roll (AND he was wearing a MODERN full-head flight helmet, much like in your avatar, minus the sun visor and oxygen mask). And this canopy was in the fully closed position, so the wind barely had much tug on it (we suspect somebody (a kid/guest) tugged at one of the emergency release levers at some time, then pushed t back into its secure position without resecuring the cable release before the flight). Our Spit XIV is currently visiting the CAF hangar in Bullhead City (I think) for 6-months, it has a loaner canopy on it currently, the replacement one is being blown and will be shipped off to Bullhead City in the next month or two.
^ now our museum's #1 reason why pilots always wear a helmet. The close second being insurance, ofc.
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We can do it like the flaps. Have it automatically close the the speed increases.
Would you make it so the only thing you could hear is the roaring gail passing from one ear thru your skull and out the other?
It's about realism :aok
JUGgler
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About a year and a half ago we had our museum's Spit XIV canopy (same canopy as on the spit IX, XVI and many other models too) grace one of our pilot's forhead with about a dozen stiches before narrowly missing the vertical stabilizer (we thank the pilot's thick skull for defleting it) and shattering on the runway behind him while on takeoff roll (AND he was wearing a MODERN full-head flight helmet, much like in your avatar, minus the sun visor and oxygen mask). And this canopy was in the fully closed position, so the wind barely had much tug on it (we suspect somebody (a kid/guest) tugged at one of the emergency release levers at some time, then pushed t back into its secure position without resecuring the cable release before the flight). Our Spit XIV is currently visiting the CAF hangar in Bullhead City (I think) for 6-months, it has a loaner canopy on it currently, the replacement one is being blown and will be shipped off to Bullhead City in the next month or two.
^ now our museum's #1 reason why pilots always wear a helmet. The close second being insurance, ofc.
How can it possibly hit the pilot when departing the airplane? It can't go down.
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How can it possibly hit the pilot when departing the airplane? It can't go down.
Canopy handle. Same thing happened to Robert Johnson in his first P-47 flight.
- oldman
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How can it possibly hit the pilot when departing the airplane? It can't go down.
Bubble types can move sideways. Part of the brief I got when flying the Mustang was if we had to get out he would give me a warning and I was to bend over so the canopy would clear me.
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I certainly wouldn't mind the idea of having the cockpits opened, only key is if you fly to fast you rip it off like landing gears which would degrade performance. In theory you "can" fly without landing gears (aces high of course).
I would be opening a 109s cockpit every flight :lol
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No. Open can of worms, IMO :bolt:
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It could only be done at slow speeds with steady orientation. In AH it would be so badly abused and left open all the time (especially in dogfights).
In reality, it was opened on final approaches so that if you crashed, or you missed the deck and splashed down, you could ESCAPE that much more quickly.
It's going to appear I'm stalking your statements a bit Krusty but I think you are making a statement that isn't true.
Spitfire pilot Bill Olmsted "Four our July 17th sortie I decided to remove my hood or coupe top to see if I could squeeze a little more speed out of my "E" job. (his Spitfire Vc) None of our recent flights had been over 10,000 feet and I reasoned a few extra miles per hour coaxed from my Spit would be worth the cold and cockpit turbulence I expected from this untried action.....I suddenly appeared at zero feet over Cantania there were guns blasting at me from every side. Without my coupe top to deaden some of the noise, I felt that the guns were only inches away. The racket was overwhelming and terrifying.
...I resolved never to fly with the coupe top again, and the sound of all those guns remained with me a long time."
There will be more examples as I dig them out :)
MTO P40E
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/40.jpg)
ETO Jug
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Jug.jpg)
PTO Iwo based 51D
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/51.jpg)
Early PTO Wildcat
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Wildcat.jpg)
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The Spitfire VI had a canopy that had to be bolted on to make the pressurization system work. Johnnie Johnson in his book "Wing Leader" references this when his 616 squadron got some of them. As they didn't always fly at alt, it was like a steam bath stuck under the hood.
Quoting him on a scramble in a Spitfire VI "I shouted to Smithson and we jumped in the two nearest Spitfires. No time to place the hood on and lock it, and a good thing too as I didn't want to ruin my best suit!"
Geoffry Page, in his book "Tale of a Guniea Pig" talks about locking his canopy open going into combat. This being a result of seeing a fellow Hurri pilot burned up in a crash landing and unable to get out due to a jammed canopy.
And of course the SBDs always seem to be chugging along with thier canopies open :) In the end I don't think it's a performance issue, but a noise, cold and personal preference. I think it was more likely to happen at low alts in warmer climates too. I'm still looking for the photo of the Aussie Spit VIII flying with the open cockpit to post.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/sbd.jpg)
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MTO Spit Vcs out on a combat patrol lead bird with the canopy back
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/4CannonSpits-1.jpg)
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The Fiat G.50 had an open cockpit as did the I-16 (flying in Russia no less), A5M, ect. I hear that many Gloster Gladiator and CR42 pilots in the MED prefered their canopies open as well. Some of that was the tradition of open cockpits of the interwar fighters. Obviously a clamshell design could not do that without problems but opening a sliding cockpit was not prohibitive if it was a sliding design. Some pilots liked to fly open cockpit. That being said as the war progressed and speeds increased generally it was not done as much but it wasn't something that you couldn't do. As stated above it was a pilot comfort issue. Over the North Sea in November (brrr) would not be the same as being over Libya in mid summer.
Didn't the P-38, P-39 and P-51A/Bs all have the side panels that could be slid down like a car window?
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The Fiat G.50 had an open cockpit as did the I-16 (flying in Russia no less), A5M, ect. I hear that many Gloster Gladiator and CR42 pilots in the MED prefered their canopies open as well. Some of that was the tradition of open cockpits of the interwar fighters. Obviously a clamshell design could not do that without problems but opening a sliding cockpit was not prohibitive if it was a sliding design. Some pilots liked to fly open cockpit. That being said as the war progressed and speeds increased generally it was not done as much but it wasn't something that you couldn't do. As stated above it was a pilot comfort issue. Over the North Sea in November (brrr) would not be the same as being over Libya in mid summer.
Didn't the P-38, P-39 and P-51A/Bs all have the side panels that could be slid down like a car window?
In the P-38 having the window down caused buffeting.
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I certainly wouldn't mind the idea of having the cockpits opened, only key is if you fly to fast you rip it off like landing gears which would degrade performance. In theory you "can" fly without landing gears (aces high of course).
I would be opening a 109s cockpit every flight :lol
It folds to the side. No breeze for you.
wrongway
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Bubble types can move sideways. Part of the brief I got when flying the Mustang was if we had to get out he would give me a warning and I was to bend over so the canopy would clear me.
Right, I was thinking of it departing the aircraft directly backwards.
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In the P-38 having the window down caused buffeting.
Righto...but at least you could get a quick snack at the drive through. ;)
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Well I can tell you that at cruise speed in a T-6 the canopy open is nice (for the front seat). But once the speed gets up around 180 mph, it's very uncomfortable with the canopy open.
I'm sure plenty of canopy's were open for cruise and formation (especially formation) but if you're in a high performance plane, once you went for speed you'd close it quick.
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It's going to appear I'm stalking your statements a bit Krusty but I think you are making a statement that isn't true.
Spitfire pilot Bill Olmsted "Four our July 17th sortie I decided to remove my hood or coupe top to see if I could squeeze a little more speed out of my "E" job. . The racket was overwhelming and terrifying.
...I resolved never to fly with the coupe top again, and the sound of all those guns remained with me a long time."
There will be more examples as I dig them out :)
MTO P40E
Photo Op?
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No. Open can of worms, IMO :bolt:
I agree, it'll be a huge investment to impliment at even limited degrees.... But.... Still, in a few years, might be some cool beans to see cracks grow from a hole in your canopy, you hear the crackling, and then suddenly in a flash, BAM the canopy dissapears, maybe you black out instantly for a few seconds or not, but in the meantime the sudden and violent increase in cockpit wind noise leaves you with no doubt what just happened. :aok
@ Guppy: many canopies (not all, and certainly many could of been a modification) I've seen have a crank so that pilots could open them or close them and leave them set there at a variety of positions in between, depending on what the pilot desired. It's interesting to note all those pictured in your photos are fully open it apears, perhaps for the photo shoot, or perhaps because maximum ventalation was desired.
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If canopy is to be blown off at high speeds, the edges of your screen should be greyed as if you're beginning to black out in a hard turn, and your screen should begin to shake as if in a compression. :)
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I agree, it'll be a huge investment to impliment at even limited degrees.... But.... Still, in a few years, might be some cool beans to see cracks grow from a hole in your canopy, you hear the crackling, and then suddenly in a flash, BAM the canopy dissapears, maybe you black out instantly for a few seconds or not, but in the meantime the sudden and violent increase in cockpit wind noise leaves you with no doubt what just happened. :aok
@ Guppy: many canopies (not all, and certainly many could of been a modification) I've seen have a crank so that pilots could open them or close them and leave them set there at a variety of positions in between, depending on what the pilot desired. It's interesting to note all those pictured in your photos are fully open it apears, perhaps for the photo shoot, or perhaps because maximum ventalation was desired.
I'm sure in the MTO and PTO birds it was for the ventilation. But I do believe at least to some degree as mentioned by Geoffry Page, guys would lock them open as he did, to make sure he wasn't trapped by a damaged, closed canopy. I imagine this was not an issue for the later blown canopies, but if you had a framed canopy as the Hurricane did, P40, Wildcat etc, that burning to death in a cockpit trapped inside by a jammed canopy was an issue. Even the Spit with it's unframed canopy had a crow bar inside for the pilot to be able to break out should the canopy jam so it clearly was on folks mind.
I don't think it's something that would be anything more then eye candy here, but when I saw the topic the first thing I thought of was this painting by Tom Lea showing a pilot from the first Hornet at the Battle of Santa Cruz. The painting was based on an incident where he managed to get his very shot up bird back down after fighting Japanese birds. I remembered the damaged open canopy.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Lea.jpg)
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I'm sure in the MTO and PTO birds it was for the ventilation. But I do believe at least to some degree as mentioned by Geoffry Page, guys would lock them open as he did, to make sure he wasn't trapped by a damaged, closed canopy. I imagine this was not an issue for the later blown canopies, but if you had a framed canopy as the Hurricane did, P40, Wildcat etc, that burning to death in a cockpit trapped inside by a jammed canopy was an issue. Even the Spit with it's unframed canopy had a crow bar inside for the pilot to be able to break out should the canopy jam so it clearly was on folks mind.
I don't think it's something that would be anything more then eye candy here, but when I saw the topic the first thing I thought of was this painting by Tom Lea showing a pilot from the first Hornet at the Battle of Santa Cruz. The painting was based on an incident where he managed to get his very shot up bird back down after fighting Japanese birds. I remembered the damaged open canopy.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Lea.jpg)
The crowbar in the spitfire cockpits has many useful purposes. If I recall correctly, in the book for the Spit XIV, there's a jammed landing gear procedure (?) in which the pilot is directed to use it while in flight to rather violently "unjam" or release something. :rofl
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nm.
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Open cockpits in game would be just eye candy, there are other things that should be worked on first. In real life there is nothing like open cockpits, the sun giving you sunburn, the wind whipping around you tiring your mustache, and pony tail in knots. The smell of oil, and fresh air, and burning 100LL, the occasional bug to the face. Just stay away from rain, it hurts.
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If a bullet were headed for my head, I would rather a piece of glass deflect/slow it down before it hits me.
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We can do it like the flaps. Have it automatically close the the speed increases.
not to hijack, but i will anyway.........i hate auto retracting flaps. i'd rather risk suffering damage if i overspeed with flaps extended.
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I still say Photo Op! :old:
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not to hijack, but i will anyway.........i hate auto retracting flaps. i'd rather risk suffering damage if i overspeed with flaps extended.
Yeah but the problem is that very few people in AH will actually study all the aircraft limitations for all aircraft. Just way too many numbers.
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Yeah but the problem is that very few people in AH will actually study all the aircraft limitations for all aircraft. Just way too many numbers.
i would be one of those that wouldn't study the limits. but i have many many extra cartoon lives which i will use to haunt you as i learn when to do such things. it will help me become the annoying pile-it i feel i should be. :devil