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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Lusche on December 10, 2011, 04:55:43 PM

Title: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 10, 2011, 04:55:43 PM
Beware, another strat topic!  :noid

The question is a bit polemic but this afternoon made me think about it again.
Many of us have in the past expressed the wish for "better strats" (though with many different meaning). The most frequent explanation why they are hardly being attacked at all since we went from zone to central strategic complex was "not worth the effort".
Which in fact I fully agree with, if you weight usual sortie length due to range and other factors, it is quite pointless - particularly when being compared to the effort necessary to make an impact tactically (for example porking)

But today (as well as on some occasions in the past), there was a different situation, at least for the rooks. (please ignore that rook & nits are swapped on this illustration):


(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2239/settingd.jpg)


The strats had been just 4 sectors away from a convenient high altitude (4k) base, ords were there all the time, activity level in that are was moderate, Rookland wasn't really under pressure for most of the time.

Perfect situation... yet nothing happened.

I did a few sorties myself. A high altitude B-29 sortie in which I managed to get the crucial City below 50%, all by myself alone. Then I played around with a few different follow up sorties from A243 (B-17, Mossie B16, Ki-67)

The point is: With only 1 wingman in addition to me, we could have totally killed off the City (which stays down for 6! hours) in a single mission, and with a single follow up raid in B-17s from A234 we could have wrecked at least one important factory (for example ords) within a very reasonable time (not much longer than it had taken to kill the hangars on an enemy airfield). With only 4 players, the results could have been even greater, though it may have had attracted more attention by the defenders.

And  City + Factory down does have quite an impact, even more so that it had been years ago with the local strats.

So... why did no one else care to attack the strats (I was on for ~6 hours)? Why didn't all the players flying bombers during that time consider a sortie there? And in particular I have to think of that mission organizers, generals and "we have to organize" players -  This would have been a good opportunity to help your country and hurt the enemy.

And this is not the first time I noticed this.
Not to be misunderstood: This is not a complaint or whine, I wasn't even trying to get support. I was just observing, testing, and thinking (And getting accused of cheating by a solo handed pilot  :D)



Is it, because attacking the strats is horrible for the score ( I thoroughly wrecked mine with my B-29 sortie - despite every bomb hitting it's mark, my hit% went from over 3000 down to 280)

Is it, because you are just waiting for someone to lead?

Or is it, because after ~2 years of "new" strats nobody even bothers to think about that option anymore, no matter what the situation really is? (This would worry me the most, as it reminds me of tanktown's fate  :uhoh)

I just want to know...  :headscratch:

 
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: uptown on December 10, 2011, 05:41:26 PM
I wouldn't attack the factories in that case because they're just to far away for me. I'd spend 3o/45 minutes getting there and fly through 3 dars rings, just to get shot down by a 262 or something when I got there. I can have more success quicker just hitting fields. I don't know if that's good or bad for score but I really don't have time for that.
I suspect many feel about it the way I do. The 1 and only time I took a B29 up, 30 minutes into the flight, a high lone Chog shows up and killed me. Apparrently the top fighter sticks in the game look for buffs to kill otw to factories. :uhoh
Felt like I wasted my time and perk points. 
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: BaldEagl on December 10, 2011, 06:32:56 PM
Or is it, because after ~2 years of "new" strats nobody even bothers to think about that option anymore, no matter what the situation really is? (This would worry me the most, as it reminds me of tanktown's fate  :uhoh)

I think this is the reason.  For myself I just quit flying bombers so I don't even think about where the strats are anymore.  That part of the game is gone and I never think about it anymore.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: guncrasher on December 10, 2011, 07:32:00 PM
lusche  you want to know why people dont attack the factories and I'll give you my honest opinion, because it is boring.  I dont log in to go for a 1 or 2 hour mission, some guys like it most dont.  It is cool for an occasional thing but I sure as hell wont do it every day or several times a day.

you cant force people to do what they dont want to do.  some can go and say most players are shortsighted and dont understand or miss our on another part of the game, but the fact is what attracts most players is being in action within a few minutes of taking off.

if some enjoy the long range bombing part of the game, hell I support your right to enjoy it but dont expect me to follow you every time  :salute.

semp
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 10, 2011, 07:37:08 PM
lusche  you want to know why people dont attack the factories and I'll give you my honest opinion, because it is boring.  I dont log in to go for a 1 or 2 hour mission, some guys like it most dont.


I know why players don't do long and medium to high altitude bombing runs at all...

But there are still a lot that do, and that was my question aimed at :)


I wouldn't attack the factories in that case because they're just to far away for me. I'd spend 3o/45 minutes getting there and fly through 3 dars rings, just to get shot down by a 262 or something when I got there. I can have more success quicker just hitting fields.

But a regular level bombing attack on a field is not quicker. You still have to climb and get there, (suicidal 5k lanc runs aside)



Just to clarify again, it's not coming from the complain department, nor do I want everybody to go on that boring hi alt raids ;)
It's just a question why isn't that done anymore even when the circumstances are near perfect, particularly as they are still more than enough buffs flying around, at higher altitudes too.






Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Butcher on December 10, 2011, 07:53:22 PM
My biggest problem when intercepting strat raiders, is the fact they are generally well above 20k - well "above" is more like 25-30k. The time to intercept is a whole new story, which could be half hour or longer, assuming you catch up with the raiders in the first place.

In reality I look for the short combat, something I can jump into within 10 minutes - not chasing after some empty bomber flying at 30k half way across a map.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: RTHolmes on December 10, 2011, 08:12:29 PM
its because the opportunity to do this is so incredibly rare that most people have no idea of its effect, and probably didnt even spot it.



btw I waved at your mossies from below but you must have been 20k+ so you didnt see me ;)
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: AWwrgwy on December 10, 2011, 08:36:00 PM
B.

Quote
Or is it, because after ~2 years of "new" strats nobody even bothers to think about that option anymore, no matter what the situation really is? (This would worry me the most, as it reminds me of tanktown's fate

Why do people bomb towns?

"XXY has landed 20kazillion points"

Why do people bomb airfields?

Spite   :cry


its because the opportunity to do this is so incredibly rare that most people have no idea of its effect, and probably didnt even spot it.

Despite the opportunity being rare, it does happen more often than one thinks.

What is the big map with all the water with the strats right on the coast three or four sectors from the nearest enemy base?

They are almost always there on that map and almost never bombed. It is the map where the vulnerability of strats should most be tested.

Doesn't happen.

With the old strats, the target to bomb for hit % was the city, for me anyway. Three clumps of lots of buildings all close together.

It's all about score, or at least Name in Lights.



wrongway
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Baumer on December 10, 2011, 09:01:56 PM
I think of myself as someone who's learned all the various aspects of playing Aces High, and I can offer a few reasons that come to mind for me. These are not complaints just my own personal reasons for not playing this part of Aces High much. They are listed in decreasing importance to me.

Reasons for not attacking the current strat system



Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: MK-84 on December 11, 2011, 07:07:57 AM
Here might be part of the problem Luche...

Since usually the strats are not convient to hit.  and since there is little reward for score, or in terms of effect.

Many of us might not even know how it effects the game?  I know hitting HQ destroys radar for a brief moment, but hitting the city does wha...?
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: zack1234 on December 11, 2011, 07:51:15 AM
What effect does bombing strats have on the country?
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 11, 2011, 08:01:22 AM
What effect does bombing strats have on the country?

It increases the downtime of porked items. The factories resupply the fields, and the factories are resupplied by the City.

Porked items on a base stay down for 45 minutes with fully working auto resupply. It can be extended to up to 2 hours if you cut of the auto supply, either by taking out each & every convoy, or by killing the corresponding factories.
The factories in turn are subject to similar rules: Each factory building stays down for 45 minutes when the City is fully up. If the City is completely down, this increases to up to 2 hours.
The City blocks stay down for 6(!) hours, no matter what.

Hence, it's very important to kill the City first, then the factories. And it's much better to completely kill off a single factory than to damage several different.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: MK-84 on December 11, 2011, 08:18:22 AM
I don't think that's common knowledge, that alone would be a large part of the problem
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Karnak on December 11, 2011, 08:50:28 AM
I would do more runs to the "Big City" if it was worth it.  For my part, I don't care about score but I do care about Bomber Perk points and the city and factories are vastly less efficient than town centers for perk gathering.  The only reason for me to hit the city is for role play reasons.

I think that perk values and score values need to be adjusted so that the cities and factories are a little more productive than town centers.  Attacking the city is riskier than town centers.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: mipoikel on December 11, 2011, 09:27:32 AM
I did enjoy bombruns to strats. There just seems to be one experienced 109 pilot waiting for me almmost every time... Weird but that pilots callsign is Snailman.  :bolt: :D
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: BaldEagl on December 11, 2011, 09:48:46 AM
The other reason people think hitting strats is ineffective is that you have to take them to under 50% to have any of the effects Lusche described.  If you take one down to only 51% then you might as well have just stayed home.

When I do see people hitting strats they take them to 75 or 80%.  No effect whatsoever.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: SmokinLoon on December 11, 2011, 09:52:33 AM

If HTC removed the entire scoring system for AH for just one month... just one month... stop and think just how differently the game would be played.  There would be far more historically accurate missions and use of aircraft, trust me.  

The strategic element is not fully understood by anyone outside of HTC, and the general mechanics are not understood by the overwhelming majority of the players.  I've seen multiple bomber missions to the industrial complex only hammer the ammo, radar, grunt, fuel, and AA factories and completely ignore the city.  Most people do not know that the city is the key to the longevity of the damage that is dealt to the factories.  

The key to the bombing score is an extreme of 1 of 2 things: high bombing percentage or high damage totals and it appears that a player can not have both, typically.  Just take a look at the higher ranked scores, they all have 2 things in common: they will have a base capture via C47 and a high(er) bombing %.  In some cases, instead of the 35+ % points, there will be massive amounts of damage.

  
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: The Fugitive on December 11, 2011, 09:53:35 AM
It increases the downtime of porked items. The factories resupply the fields, and the factories are resupplied by the City.

Porked items on a base stay down for 45 minutes with fully working auto resupply. It can be extended to up to 2 hours if you cut of the auto supply, either by taking out each & every convoy, or by killing the corresponding factories.
The factories in turn are subject to similar rules: Each factory building stays down for 45 minutes when the City is fully up. If the City is completely down, this increases to up to 2 hours.
The City blocks stay down for 6(!) hours, no matter what.

Hence, it's very important to kill the City first, then the factories. And it's much better to completely kill off a single factory than to damage several different.

Because it has no effect on rolling base after base.

Maybe  if the "white flag" was set at 95% unless you got the "city" down to 75% then the towns drop to what they are now for a white flag.

oh wait, then we are forcing people to play a certain way again. Oh well  :D
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 11, 2011, 09:59:38 AM
If HTC removed the entire scoring system for AH for just one month... just one month... stop and think just how differently the game would be played.  There would be far more historically accurate missions and use of aircraft, trust me.  


No I do not trust you  :P

Because the main driving force behind MA actions would still be there: Capturing bases. Almost everything revolves around this. And that's hardly related to score, most players in most circumstances could do much 'better' in score if they'd not playing the basegrab game as much.  And planes are selected for 'efficiency' in that role. A NOE mix of 110's Lancs and N1K is not selected for score reasons.

Shutting down score might very will drive a lot of players away (me too), and in some areas the effects might even by opposite to the intention: No score, not any 'downside' to a virtual death = much more airquake, bomb'n'bail and so on.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: wil3ur on December 11, 2011, 11:06:06 AM
I used to up lancs and go pork strats all the time under the old system.  Normally the troops or ammo strat, then follow up by porking those bases serviced by the strats.  I could take a factory down to under 10% with a single set of lancasters, and royally screw up an entire area for 3 hours because of the porking.  Now it takes at least that long to fly there and back, it becomes futile for the person doing it much like an HQ raid.  They are so out of the way now that for the person doing the bombing it's literally a waste of time and whatever damage is done is resupplied before the bomber is out of sector.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: shiv on December 11, 2011, 11:29:32 AM


Or is it, because after ~2 years of "new" strats nobody even bothers to think about that option anymore, no matter what the situation really is? (This would worry me the most, as it reminds me of tanktown's fate  :uhoh)


This, and that rolling bases seems to be more fun for most* players.



*Not to say it's just rolling bases; there's always a good number of fighters there to have fun picking the vastly outnumbered defenders.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: infowars on December 11, 2011, 11:36:10 AM
I think your right Lusche...

We need someone to lead
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: 1sum41 on December 11, 2011, 07:13:25 PM
We need someone to lead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9f1TYyvEx8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9f1TYyvEx8)
 :D
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: zack1234 on December 12, 2011, 01:54:22 AM
I should be in charge  :old:
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 14, 2011, 04:15:48 AM
Thanks to everyone who answered.

Many of you have stated the reasons for not attacking the strats in general, which range from very understandable reasons of personal preference "aka bombing is boring" to gameplay issues. Baumer summed it up best to me:

I think of myself as someone who's learned all the various aspects of playing Aces High, and I can offer a few reasons that come to mind for me. These are not complaints just my own personal reasons for not playing this part of Aces High much. They are listed in decreasing importance to me.

Reasons for not attacking the current strat system


However, the example I gave was different in as much as the strats were in easy reach, and crippling town and one or two factories would still have a profound impact on the enemy.
This fact, and many answers I have read here as well as I got from players in game, reinforce my belief that this is in huge part due to a change in player behaviour. (No, not another "xbox generation" rant):

Every new player who joined in the last two years, asking about bombing the strats has heard "not worth the effort". And that's how the strats completely moved off the player's radar (witty pun, eh?), resulting in the current situation. And that's the similarity to Tank Town. I'm afraid even if the role of the strats would been boosted somehow, they still would not been attacked without some further, highly visible incentive (to bring it back in the player's minds).


I think your right Lusche...

We need someone to lead

A single leader would change nothing. We would literally need dozens if not hundreds of them. Think how institutions like the 'MoM', or other similar efforts, rose and fell with the commitment of a single player.



------------------------------

I have to admit that this was maybe the first time in my long AH career that I was sorry not to have a squad at my disposal. While flying my first, high alt sortie I quickly devised a plan for a small but nice lil raid that could have smashed the strats without creating too much attention too early ;)

I now have spend many hours during the last days, testing bomb loadouts and rebuild times in the "Gastropod Proving Ground" arena as well as flying actual sorties. Surprisingly, even on small maps with 163's next to the strats, the defenders reaction was rather limited.
And the B-29 turned out to be very survivable even against Kometen  :devil

I came to the conclusion that on a large map it's even possible to effectively hurt the strats under normal circumstances, with a very small number (2-8) of experienced, disciplined and perk equipped players.
Large raids do often 'fail' (technically only, as they still generate lots of fun) due to the attention they generate (multi-sector darbar) and, most importantly, due to the 'n00b factor': A gaggle of bombers not able to keep formation, 90% wasted bombs due to a lack of clearly defined targets and  bombsight calibration issues, and escort fighters that are greedy for kills instead of doing their job.

If I just wouldn't hate so much being a leader... the sortie planning part is quite fun. And you bet I have some resources for that...  ;)

Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: zack1234 on December 14, 2011, 04:36:07 AM
So everyone agree's that I am in charge then ? :old:
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: uptown on December 14, 2011, 09:01:45 AM
So everyone agree's that I am in charge then ? :old:
+1
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Daddkev on December 14, 2011, 12:27:02 PM
 :noid What the heck is a Baugmore?......oh bomber...lol :joystick:
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: shiv on December 14, 2011, 01:07:34 PM
------------------------------

I have to admit that this was maybe the first time in my long AH career that I was sorry not to have a squad at my disposal. While flying my first, high alt sortie I quickly devised a plan for a small but nice lil raid that could have smashed the strats without creating too much attention too early ;)

I now have spend many hours during the last days, testing bomb loadouts and rebuild times in the "Gastropod Proving Ground" arena as well as flying actual sorties. Surprisingly, even on small maps with 163's next to the strats, the defenders reaction was rather limited.
And the B-29 turned out to be very survivable even against Kometen  :devil

I came to the conclusion that on a large map it's even possible to effectively hurt the strats under normal circumstances, with a very small number (2-8) of experienced, disciplined and perk equipped players.
Large raids do often 'fail' (technically only, as they still generate lots of fun) due to the attention they generate (multi-sector darbar) and, most importantly, due to the 'n00b factor': A gaggle of bombers not able to keep formation, 90% wasted bombs due to a lack of clearly defined targets and  bombsight calibration issues, and escort fighters that are greedy for kills instead of doing their job.

If I just wouldn't hate so much being a leader... the sortie planning part is quite fun. And you bet I have some resources for that...  ;)



Care to elaborate on the plan? I assume you're talking about a B29 raid on one strat and the city.

Singles or formations for the B29s? And for the escort  - I'm guessing 152s?
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Volron on December 14, 2011, 01:44:26 PM
I've mentioned this in other threads, and is known to most here...  The time + effort = reward is horridly out of balance when it comes to hitting the Capital.  My last sortie against the Captial, I took up B-24's and knocked the Industrial Center down by 24%.  I can easily do the same in the B-17.  I landed around 9k (8.8xx if I remember correctly) damage and received around 1-2 perks for it.  I can up the same planes and carpet bomb a port that nets me around 500-1.5k damage and come away with as much, if not more perks.  Hitting a town, I can land half the damage I do in a raid on a Capital and come away with double the perks.  A quick fix for this is to quadruple the rewards for hitting the Capital.  You are almost sure to see a few more strat raiders, even if they do it wrong...

Others have mentioned that the status of the Capital has zero effect for winning the war, so make it part of the win the war system.  A basic idea is; You have to have the entire Captial down below 10%, this includes Industry, Ords, Troops, Ack, Dar and Fuel, and have 20% of each sides bases to win.  Maybe not that low, so 25%.  Of course the Industrial Center will have to be below 10%.  Explained below.

Another thing to mention, that some are aware of, but most are not (especially in-game) is, you have to knock the Industry in a Capital down below 10% before the effects of hitting the other strats start to stick.  Some are saying that there are no planes that can make escort runs on these, but that isn't overly correct.  Taking off from a front line base a P-51B(?) or D with 100% fuel and drop tanks would be able to escort the bombers to and from target, especially if they use MAX CRUISE once in position.  Having escorts ready for the return trip, as the 1st escorts might be low on fuel/ammo, may be necessary though.

Dang it Lusche, I wish I knew you were actually doing something like this.  I would have happily joined you in a mission to rain destruction on an Enemy Capital. :cry  Why don't you ask on country if someone would like to join you for a strat raid.  If I'm not in the middle of something and/or have the time, I'll join you right away. :aok
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: PuppetZ on December 14, 2011, 02:52:19 PM
So everyone agree's that I am in charge then ? :old:

Sir, if you are going to serve pie in the o'club, count me out. I'd rather have ham 'n bacon with maple syrup. :aok

 :D
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 14, 2011, 05:25:27 PM
Care to elaborate on the plan? I assume you're talking about a B29 raid on one strat and the city.

Singles or formations for the B29s? And for the escort  - I'm guessing 152s?


Oh, actually it all depends on situation and number of experienced players available. But yes, it's based on 29 formations (at least for the initial strike), as they do have the range, speed and bombload required for such a raid.
If everything goes perfect, it needs only two players to kill off the city in one sortie. When more players are available, you can start to get creative.. staggered launching times, or all at once, one standing by for reserve or starting to take down a factory while the city is being smashed.

Of escorts are actually used (I did quite fine during the last days without any), I would rather prefer 47N's. But in case it's a map like OZKansas, different high altitude types will do as well, because the ultra long range ain't needed (no reason to escort the Superfortress on climbout).
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 15, 2011, 12:42:16 PM
Some additional observations from yesterday.

OZkansas is a good map for bombers to work  on the strats, as the distances do allow for much shorter trips. Our (rooks) closest base had been only three sectors away, for example.
When I entered arena, someone had already taken Knight City down to ~70%, with two additional sorties I dropped it below 20%. In the end, I was joined in my efforts by Volron, and we then smashed the Knight ordnance factory. Only by then the defense really started to show up. (And that was really fun)

Unfortunately, despite our repeated 'suggestion' nobody tried to take advantage of this by porking the Nit fields. Which was particularly fascinating as during this time Knight were pressing the attack hard. The generals were alternately yelling their orders and voicing their displease with the Rook's apparent lack of organisation, fighting will and planning. Ironically our pointers to the Knight's somewhat delicate auto resupply situation in regards to ords were dismissed, and I was told that 'strats are only good for score'  :confused:

My whole evening I was also watching the other strats too. I saw occasional attacks, but always only by single pilots, and always the bombs had been dropped on several targets at once. Of course, this way attacks on the industrial complex are indeed a total waste of time.

Conclusion:
I was reinforced in my belief that a few experienced players can indeed have an impact by more 'strategic' gameplay if they get their act together. Kill City-> kill factory -> pork. Direct tactical combat is still more efficient in some ways (at least in theory), but it might still be an attractive path if action for those interested in something 'more historical', flying bombers, or just taking a break from the old smash&grab routine. Just a little bit of planning and organisation is required.
Too bad apparently not only nobody did know anything about the strats & the resupply system, but also the term 'organisation' seems to be strictly limited to blunt 'capture a base' operations.

Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: PFactorDave on December 15, 2011, 01:05:28 PM
Is it, because attacking the strats is horrible for the score ( I thoroughly wrecked mine with my B-29 sortie - despite every bomb hitting it's mark, my hit% went from over 3000 down to 280)


Seems to me that the current scoring system encourages score potato tactics that allow a hit percentage of 3000%...  Maybe the system needs changed so that your 3000 hit percentage is no longer possible, and make it so hitting the Strats is the most efficient way for a score minded person to...  well...  score.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: ttflier on December 15, 2011, 04:33:44 PM
Too much effort, too little reward and too much risk for a target that can be resupplied in minutes (with a great perk incentive to resupply).
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 15, 2011, 04:37:06 PM
Too much effort, too little reward and too much risk for a target that can be resupplied in minutes (with a great perk incentive to resupply).

Too much effort in the context of the situations I presented with the strats "next door", or just general?

Also, during all my raids during the last week I never ever noticed any factory being actually effectively resupplied... on top of that, the City itself can't be resupplied at all (unless something has changed recently, but there was no indication for it anywhere)

addendum: Just verified it, unlike factories, city still can't be resupplied.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: RTHolmes on December 15, 2011, 05:28:25 PM
another problem with the new city/strat complex is knowing what to bomb. the old strat factories were pretty simple - the map looks like the strat and everything you hit counts. the new city/strat complex is really difficult to bomb effectively by comparison. the strats arent quite as bad as the city itself, but its very easy to spend a long time flying over there to only hit a couple of strat objects.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 15, 2011, 05:30:50 PM
another problem with the new city/strat complex is knowing what to bomb. the old strat factories were pretty simple - the map looks like the strat and everything you hit counts. the new city/strat complex is really difficult to bomb effectively by comparison. the strats arent quite as bad as the city itself, but its very easy to spend a long time flying over there to only hit a couple of strat objects.

How is the city bad? Every city tile on the center island counts, as clearly indicated by the clipboard map  :headscratch:
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: RTHolmes on December 15, 2011, 05:42:49 PM
previously 99% of everything you could see was worth something to bomb (apart from 1x indestructible in each strat), ?75% of the current complex is worthless.

the city is a more difficult target than the factories because the target objects look like buildings just like the rest of the complex, unlike the strats which have visual clues (radar masts, refineries etc.)
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 15, 2011, 05:59:28 PM
the city is a more difficult target than the factories because the target objects look like buildings just like the rest of the complex, unlike the strats which have visual clues (radar masts, refineries etc.)
^


The whole island is one big target, everything outside is not. I can't imagine any bigger visual clue than that.

(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/9522/clipboard01pg.jpg)

From 30k, through some cloud cover:
(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/360/clipboard01fo.jpg)


It's a huge landmark that can be identified from far away while lining up, I have more problems to spot the factories.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: wil3ur on December 15, 2011, 06:06:29 PM
...it's gamey, but you can turn your gamma correction down at high altitude to get slightly better ground visibility through the clouds.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 15, 2011, 06:13:45 PM
...it's gamey, but you can turn your gamma correction down at high altitude to get slightly better ground visibility through the clouds.

I prefer getting upset because an otherwise fine approach is suddenly thwarted by intervening clouds.

And I would have never mentioned that here for obvious reasons...  :bhead
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Daddkev on December 15, 2011, 06:22:28 PM
 :noid :bhead
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: The Fugitive on December 15, 2011, 06:26:16 PM
If it doesn't get you faster planes, bigger cannons, or help your horde roll a base in under 5 minutes, nobody is interested!

This game is all about rolling base after base and winning the war as quickly as possible. Anything else you can do, and there is a CRAP-LOAD of stuff to do is un-important to these players. They haven't a clue as to what bombing the city does (see the above remark about score padding).

To bring strat bombing, strategic planning, co-ordinated missions back into this game HTC is going to have to make it part of the win the war REQUIREMENTS. Other than that MOST people don't care about it and will not be interested in it.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: Lusche on December 15, 2011, 06:28:53 PM
To bring strat bombing, strategic planning, co-ordinated missions back into this game HTC is going to have to make it part of the win the war REQUIREMENTS. Other than that MOST people don't care about it and will not be interested in it.


Incredible... I do agree  :old:
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: The Fugitive on December 15, 2011, 06:33:05 PM
The stars all align once in awhile  :P

As a guy who love to just fight I would be happy to run escort on mission to the city and factories, or be part of a defensive group that lifts to intercept.
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: wil3ur on December 15, 2011, 06:37:19 PM
I prefer getting upset because an otherwise fine approach is suddenly thwarted by intervening clouds.

And I would have never mentioned that here for obvious reasons...  :bhead

...on my screen at least, the screenshot you posted is a complete whitewash.  I see no cloud detail, and no ground detail whatsoever.  On my monitor, that needs to be gamma corrected to even make sense of it.  I actually run at a +1.2 correction in game myself, and have never seen anything as washed out as the image you posted there.


From 30k, through some cloud cover:
(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/360/clipboard01fo.jpg)


I can almost make out roads on there if I highlight the image with my mouse...
Title: Re: But maybe it's still score after all?
Post by: RTHolmes on December 16, 2011, 05:40:20 AM
The whole island is one big target, everything outside is not.

I had no idea everything on the island is destrictible, goes to show how often ive hit the new city complex.