Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Butcher on December 20, 2011, 12:40:42 PM
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I am having a bit of trouble trying to find what tanks German armored divisions were equipped with during the war, yes I know this would be a painstaking path, but I am trying to full the wiki pages with all the units that had Panther Ausf.G's whether replacements or not, and attempt to fill in the information.
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Have you tried Achtung Panzer (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/)?
ack-ack
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Have you tried Achtung Panzer (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/)?
ack-ack
Yeah I've been searching for half a day now, basically I know the Panzer Divisions in 1944 were equipped with 79 x Panthers and 81 x Panzer 4's, however I can't find a list of what Divisions actually had Panthers.
Would it be safe to assume every division had Panthers?
Here's a Late 1944 Panzer Division equipment list:
67 x Panther / 69 x Panzer IV / 8 x Bergepanzer IV/ Panther
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You will need to deal with a bit of German, but this is the complete list of every Panther distributed to individual units throughout 1943, 1944 and 1945:
http://www.panther1944.de/de/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/panther-zuweisungslisten/panther-zuweisungsliste-1943.html
http://www.panther1944.de/de/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/panther-zuweisungslisten/panther-zuweisungsliste-1944.html
http://www.panther1944.de/de/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/panther-zuweisungslisten/panther-zuweisungsliste-1945.html
Not every Panzer Division had Panthers. It wasn't unheard of for a panzer division only to have a single Panzer-IV battalion in it's regiment.
If you are looking for a specific division and/or period it will be easier for me to give a more accurate answer. The divisions changed constantly so it's hard to generalise.
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You will need to deal with a bit of German, but this is the complete list of every Panther distributed to individual units throughout 1943, 1944 and 1945:
http://www.panther1944.de/de/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/panther-zuweisungslisten/panther-zuweisungsliste-1943.html
http://www.panther1944.de/de/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/panther-zuweisungslisten/panther-zuweisungsliste-1944.html
http://www.panther1944.de/de/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/panther-zuweisungslisten/panther-zuweisungsliste-1945.html
Not every Panzer Division had Panthers. It wasn't unheard of for a panzer division only to have a single Panzer-IV battalion in it's regiment.
If you are looking for a specific division and/or period it will be easier for me to give a more accurate answer. The divisions changed constantly so it's hard to generalise.
yeah most were organized on paper, however that was not the true nature of the overall strength of the division, the list is interesting, but I am trying to find out which units specifically had Panther G's (not A or Ds) which is the grumsome researching,
Specifically I suppose I would look up only SS units for the time being, it would narrow my search down considerably.
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I think this may have your answer.
__Germanys_Panther_Tank__The_Quest_for_Combat_Supremacy.pdf (http://www.4shared.com/office/JBhBcKFX/__Germanys_Panther_Tank__The_Q.html)
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I think this may have your answer.
__Germanys_Panther_Tank__The_Quest_for_Combat_Supremacy.pdf (http://www.4shared.com/office/JBhBcKFX/__Germanys_Panther_Tank__The_Q.html)
DOH I have that in PDF, somehow missed it, thank you very much exactly what I needed!
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Why are you researching this? Curiosity? or are you forming your own tank division? :D
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I think this may have your answer.
__Germanys_Panther_Tank__The_Quest_for_Combat_Supremacy.pdf (http://www.4shared.com/office/JBhBcKFX/__Germanys_Panther_Tank__The_Q.html)
Hey I got that book :aok
:salute
BigRat
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Why are you researching this? Curiosity? or are you forming your own tank division? :D
I am going to slowly update the Wikipedia page for Aces High ground vehicles, most are completely empty which little or no knowledge,
as we all know wikipedia itself is a joke in a sense for accurate information, I plan to update each page accordingly and accurately as possible.
I have a few arguments to make with the "Panther" we have in game, in order to do so I am building my case first.
As lyric pointed out in another thread, the Ar-234 did not have rear 20mm cannons, I have a few arguments on the Panther G which
would require game changes, knowing the divisions the Panther was used, I can go through wartime documents to help elevate my argument.
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Oh great.
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Oh great.
Yeah. Research is never a good thing. He should just go on a ranting spree without checking anything first! (Like most people do)
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From 1943 onwards German panzer divisions were typically understrength....so the numbers of tanks listed need to be taken with a grain of salt. By contrast, American armored divisions were only understrength after a major action, and the tanks lost were quickly replaced. Some American armored divisions were organized from their beginning to be "heavy divisions" and usually were employed in those actions which required superior numbers to win an engagement.
Nevertheless, against the superior armor and firepower of the German tanks American divisions often took severe casualties. The 3rd Armored Division during the fighting extending from the landings in France until the final German surrender suffered casualties in tanks of almost 700%. The loss of trained personnel was so severe that some replacement crews were formed from infantry units freshly arrived from the states which were given only a day or two of training.
An excellent literary reference for information about American armored forces and the problems facing German armored divisions is a book called "Death Traps" by Beltin Cooper.
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Yeah. Research is never a good thing. He should just go on a ranting spree without checking anything first! (Like most people do)
I'll support any case for/against AH aircraft, vehicles, or weapons that has been thoroughly researched **and presented** correctly.
Not all that long ago I made mention of some discrepancies in the AH rocket lineup, namely the German 28cm "Wurforper", and British 60lb rockets. Low and behold with documentation and a proper and thoughtful proposal HTC reviewed their data and "puuf" some changes were made the next update. The British 60lb rocket is now the best air to ground HE rocket in the game (as it should be). They also made some changes to the US 4.5 in rockets in the same update.
So I say if there is some conflicting data out there showing the HTC has a blemish or 2 on their aircraft, vehicle, or weapon... present it as properly as can be. :aok
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:aok
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What Shuckins said is right by everything I have read as well.. The last time the Panzers had full strenth units, of properly trained Panzertruppen, and Fresh Equipment, was at Kursk in 43.. The CREAM, the best the Panzerschules ever produced, was wasted there! The graduates of the Hitler Youth programs, and the Junkerschules.. THE BEST troops that the Germans produced during the war, thrown away in one battle, for no gain! Another thing I have read consistantly, is that, from late 42, the German were producing more SPG's than Tanks.. So, many slots in the TO&E that call for a Panzer??? often were filled by whatever they could get, usually a Stug or Marder of some type.. This was par for all vehicles and units.. Remember also, political favoritism played a big part as to who got what equipment too.. A few units had to be reconstituted from NOTHING, after being wiped out.. Ala Politzie, and Totenkopf twice! And the Germans were big on paper units, carried many on the rosters that never even existed..
The paper OOB of any German unit after Falais is seriously doubtful.. Same after Bagration in the east, some units just disappeared completely from the rosters, wiped out..
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What Shuckins said is right by everything I have read as well.. The last time the Panzers had full strenth units, of properly trained Panzertruppen, and Fresh Equipment, was at Kursk in 43.. The CREAM, the best the Panzerschules ever produced, was wasted there! The graduates of the Hitler Youth programs, and the Junkerschules.. THE BEST troops that the Germans produced during the war, thrown away in one battle, for no gain! Another thing I have read consistantly, is that, from late 42, the German were producing more SPG's than Tanks.. So, many slots in the TO&E that call for a Panzer??? often were filled by whatever they could get, usually a Stug or Marder of some type.. This was par for all vehicles and units.. Remember also, political favoritism played a big part as to who got what equipment too.. A few units had to be reconstituted from NOTHING, after being wiped out.. Ala Politzie, and Totenkopf twice! And the Germans were big on paper units, carried many on the rosters that never even existed..
The paper OOB of any German unit after Falais is seriously doubtful.. Same after Bagration in the east, some units just disappeared completely from the rosters, wiped out..
Paper Divisions have been a common problem with piecing together the Table of Equipment for the German Army, frankly I didn't really care "how many" tanks were in each division, rather I was looking for the simple research of what Division had what Equipment- whether its 1 platoon of Sturmgeschütz III or Marder III's or an entire company. So far I have a rough idea of what 40% of the divisions had, I have all the information for the TO&E - in case for the future we add another German Tank to Aces high, I can say exactly what units used it, and could have profiles available.
Given each Division, Year and Theater - the TO&E was almost never the same in any frame, but I do have a good clue now - I would hate to say never attempt to research this, I couldn't even begin to start on the Japanese Army/Navy for TO&E.
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Paper Divisions have been a common problem with piecing together the Table of Equipment for the German Army, frankly I didn't really care "how many" tanks were in each division, rather I was looking for the simple research of what Division had what Equipment- whether its 1 platoon of Sturmgeschütz III or Marder III's or an entire company. So far I have a rough idea of what 40% of the divisions had, I have all the information for the TO&E - in case for the future we add another German Tank to Aces high, I can say exactly what units used it, and could have profiles available.
Given each Division, Year and Theater - the TO&E was almost never the same in any frame, but I do have a good clue now - I would hate to say never attempt to research this, I couldn't even begin to start on the Japanese Army/Navy for TO&E.
Hell yes, a worthwhile endeavor to study this .. Obviously others have done some reading on this topic, myself included! I will be very interested to see some correlated info on this.. Where they went, who got them, and who didn't.. Ya know, for a people who are considered extremely disciplined stone faced, and pragmatic, their equipment procurement system was absolute CHAOS!