Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Penguin on January 21, 2012, 11:20:25 PM
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It seems that Skuzzy has stated that DX9 is the farthest that HTC would dare to tread for fear of losing XP customers. While this concern is valid, there is another solution. There could be multiple versions of AH2; the only difference being client-side DX10 and DX11 for some, and ported DX9 rendering for others. All other elements would remain the same, and each version would send and receive the same packets to and from the server. The only difference is that those with higher capabilities would be able to use them, with little to no cost to XP users. Therefore, everyone would profit from better rendering or just regular updates, and the arenas would remain intact.
-Penguin
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Not worth the effort.
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HTC will make the jump when they think that it is a good business move... Whenever that happens to be...
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It seems that Skuzzy has stated that DX9 is the farthest that HTC would dare to tread for fear of losing XP customers. While this concern is valid, there is another solution. There could be multiple versions of AH2; the only difference being client-side DX10 and DX11 for some, and ported DX9 rendering for others. All other elements would remain the same, and each version would send and receive the same packets to and from the server. The only difference is that those with higher capabilities would be able to use them, with little to no cost to XP users. Therefore, everyone would profit from better rendering or just regular updates, and the arenas would remain intact.
-Penguin
would it make a difference between dx9 and dx11? what is your opinion on it? what could the game improve?
semp
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It seems that Skuzzy has stated that DX9 is the farthest that HTC would dare to tread for fear of losing XP customers. While this concern is valid, there is another solution. There could be multiple versions of AH2; the only difference being client-side DX10 and DX11 for some, and ported DX9 rendering for others. All other elements would remain the same, and each version would send and receive the same packets to and from the server. The only difference is that those with higher capabilities would be able to use them, with little to no cost to XP users. Therefore, everyone would profit from better rendering or just regular updates, and the arenas would remain intact.
-Penguin
Are you throwing bait here? :huh
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It seems that Skuzzy has stated that DX9 is the farthest that HTC would dare to tread for fear of losing XP customers...
According to Microsoft (http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?c2=1173), the "Extended Support End Date" for XP is April 08, 2014.
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It seems that Skuzzy has stated that DX9 is the farthest that HTC would dare to tread for fear of losing XP customers. While this concern is valid, there is another solution. There could be multiple versions of AH2; the only difference being client-side DX10 and DX11 for some, and ported DX9 rendering for others. All other elements would remain the same, and each version would send and receive the same packets to and from the server. The only difference is that those with higher capabilities would be able to use them, with little to no cost to XP users. Therefore, everyone would profit from better rendering or just regular updates, and the arenas would remain intact.
-Penguin
Penguin its easy just cut checks for everyone on xp and then we can all switch
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isnt DX10 backwards compatible? ie. if the system doesnt support DX10 it just uses the equivalent DX9 library? :headscratch:
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Penguin its easy just cut checks for everyone on xp and then we can all switch
And not just $ for Win7 but also for replacements for all my old software that wouldn't be compatible with Win7 ;)
No one has yet enumerated what we'd gain by going to DX11. I'd be interested to know.
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And not just $ for Win7 but also for replacements for all my old software that wouldn't be compatible with Win7 ;)
No one has yet enumerated what we'd gain by going to DX11. I'd be interested to know.
wong skuzzy mentioned what the gain would be with dx11, not sure about the exact words as he was replaying to another of penguin's we need dx11 threads. gain would be almost nothing. just penguin doesnt want to mention it. by the way did you notice that wop is being released using dx9? or at least that is what is said in the youtube videos.
semp
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Gain is +2.
Infidelz
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wong skuzzy mentioned what the gain would be with dx11, not sure about the exact words as he was replaying to another of penguin's we need dx11 threads. gain would be almost nothing.
semp
Depends on how DX 11 is implemented.
ack-ack
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Would it make the game use all 4 cores of a newer computer? Would it make the headrest of the p51 and other planes look round instead of box shaped?
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wong skuzzy mentioned what the gain would be with dx11, not sure about the exact words as he was replaying to another of penguin's we need dx11 threads. gain would be almost nothing. just penguin doesnt want to mention it. by the way did you notice that wop is being released using dx9? or at least that is what is said in the youtube videos.
semp
Your spelling is so poor that I can't understand what you are saying. I've never posted a DX9 thread before, so this thread wouldn't be "another one". Mention what, exactly? The gain would be having a higher quality front-end engine for later OS's. You've also ignored -completely ignored, mind you- the fact that multiple versions would be released.
-Penguin
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Your spelling is so poor that I can't understand what you are saying. I've never posted a DX9 thread before, so this thread wouldn't be "another one". Mention what, exactly? The gain would be having a higher quality front-end engine for later OS's. You've also ignored -completely ignored, mind you- the fact that multiple versions would be released.
-Penguin
Lol I no rite? SO easy to coad.
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As far as I know, it would be a port from DX11 to DX10 to DX9 in order to support all versions. Nothing is 'easy', and I never said that it would be.
-Penguin
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Your spelling is so poor that I can't understand what you are saying. I've never posted a DX9 thread before, so this thread wouldn't be "another one". Mention what, exactly? The gain would be having a higher quality front-end engine for later OS's. You've also ignored -completely ignored, mind you- the fact that multiple versions would be released.
-Penguin
feel free to correct my spelling as i dont think there's any misspelled words. grammar errors, lots of them. but if you cant tell the difference between grammar and spelling errors then perhaps you shouldnt be correcting anyone.
but you still havent answered how exactly the game going to be improved by going to dx11. just curious as I cant tell the difference between one and the other. will it make the corners sharper, higher fps, what exactly is going to be improved?
semp
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My question is serious, not a flame. For example, would AH gain tessellation? That would enable a significant increase in fidelity of rendering curved surfaces like nacelles, leading edges, etc. and could do wonders to terrains (which are very low polygon count presently), although I don't see how they would handle the surface collision problem if the graphics card were increasing terrain complexity without the collision model knowing about it. Would there be better visual effects from lighting or particle systems? That's what I was asking: I am not familiar with DX11 and what it provides.
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I had heard that DX11 would fix the bug that doesn't allow flightless birds to fly ;) I heard there was a down side that once airborne they lose their ability to squawk, thus we may never know if DX11 had any real benefit to those who had flapped about having it for so long. :lol
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See rule #4
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Regarding spelling errors, you are:
wong
It's all good :cheers:
Back on topic. DX11 allows for higher frame rates through better optimization, and tessallation is a major part of that optimization. Instead of the jarring LOD's we have now, we'd have textures that would tessallate into view. Here is a great explanation: http://www.overclock.net/t/597046/dx11-vs-dx10-vs-dx-9-pics (http://www.overclock.net/t/597046/dx11-vs-dx10-vs-dx-9-pics) It comes with pictures and is totally safe for work. Pay close attention to the cobblestone road and tessalation features, the difference in favor of DX11 is huge in terms of performance and graphics. The separate versions would give Vista and 7 users full use of their equipment, and the improved graphics could be enough to warrant another ad campaign.
-Penguin
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I admit that I didn't read all 41 pages of the post, but was underwhelmed by the comparison in graphics. I know eye of the beholder :bolt: but the argument that there will be a performance boost and smoother transitions from hi to lo detail seems to be the area where HTC are most likely paying attention. From what I was able to read and gather, the graphic example was mostly over kill with polygons. Also, there was a disclaimer right off the bat about real time games, where a game like AH definitely has done very well to keep their minimum requirements in the realm of WW2 enthusiasts and not that of hard core gamer.
Summary: When the performance value of DirectX version and capability to revamp artwork to a ultra superior quality virtual world meet the price range of the designer and the customer, then an upgrade could be warranted. Simply said, what kind of investment versus expected revenue are we currently looking at?
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The interesting thing is that there are DX10/11 games out there, that will also operate in DX9.
What allows them to do that? Does anyone know?
AHII hasn't really even "maxed out" DX9 yet, I think it would be a bit rash to start jumping to newer versions, particularly for something as trivial as tessellation. There are many models in AHII that are old and need to be updated with higher resolution models.
I think the Source engine is a good example of how good a DX9 game can look. MMO's tend to lag a little behind the curve in the graphics department since the content is dynamic and has to constantly be updated.
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Penguin: thanks for that link, it explained a lot. I didn't know that the extra polygons that the tessellation based graphics card generate are procedurally based or come from a displacement map texture. That would work for AH terrains: the displacement map texture could be used for collision detection (i.e. place your Jeep at the right spot in space vertically respect to the height displaced tessellated terrain) while the graphics card generates the much higher polygon count terrain.
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Regarding spelling errors, you are:
It's all good :cheers:
Back on topic. DX11 allows for higher frame rates through better optimization, and tessallation is a major part of that optimization. Instead of the jarring LOD's we have now, we'd have textures that would tessallate into view. Here is a great explanation: http://www.overclock.net/t/597046/dx11-vs-dx10-vs-dx-9-pics (http://www.overclock.net/t/597046/dx11-vs-dx10-vs-dx-9-pics) It comes with pictures and is totally safe for work. Pay close attention to the cobblestone road and tessalation features, the difference in favor of DX11 is huge in terms of performance and graphics. The separate versions would give Vista and 7 users full use of their equipment, and the improved graphics could be enough to warrant another ad campaign.
-Penguin
wong is not a misspelling. it is actually a word and it is used as an expression. but you still havent told me what is going to improve in the game. I can post links to tell everybody how much better win7 is than xp or vista, but still not really telling them what is going to change for them.
semp
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If you mean 'wong' as an expression, then the mistake is far worse; you've made nonsense.
Anyway. I've already stated the advantages of DX11 over DX9:
-snip-
DX11 allows for higher frame rates through better optimization, and tessallation is a major part of that optimization. Instead of the jarring LOD's we have now, we'd have textures that would tessallate into view.
-snip-
the difference in favor of DX11 is huge in terms of performance and graphics. The separate versions would give Vista and 7 users full use of their equipment, and the improved graphics could be enough to warrant another ad campaign.
I can put those together into one tidy essay, if you'd like:
DX11 is far superior to DX9 in the fields of smoothness in gameplay and graphical fidelity. Tessalation gives better smoothness because instead of requiring the front-end to load all the possible levels of detail, it uses a simple repeating program to smoothly increase the level of detail as the player nears the object. This increases frame-rates, but it's not done smoothing out gameplay yet: DX11's tessalation also removes the jarring shifts in detail that players experience when they approach an object (see above). These qualities allow DX11 to improve performance, and thus allow players to enjoy higher graphical settings, which can be increased even further with the higher polygon count availible with DX11.
Just as more semiconductors can fit onto a silicon chip every year, so do more polygons fit into a single degree of view. This occurs with all rendering software as hardware improves. The increased detail, especailly visisble on the cobblestone path, increases immersion and realism. Due to tessalation, this increase does not necessitate hardware upgrades or lowered framerates. Rather, this is as close to a free lunch as it gets. If HTC can produce multiple versions of its software to take advantage of DX11, then it will allow players with later hardware to take advantage without changing gameplay.
A good example of this zero-gameplay-impact is the rendering of trees, fire, and muzzle flash, which currently consist of two perpendicular polygons with overlaid textures. With DX11, these polygons could tessalate into simpler versions at longer distances instead of creating a massive drop in performance instantaneously. Furthermore, with the later hardware that usually comes with later software such as Windows 7, there could be even more polygons (perhaps 4 or 8) or even particle physics. The opportunities are endless when DX11 is availible. This would not impact gameplay because fire does not ignite other things, and nicer looking fire does not change a former deadbeat into an ace.
Though the effort would be great, the impact would be even greater, and the new-and-improved graphics would make AH2 a far more beautiful game. Furthermore, the upgrade would be optional for all users, just like the Hi-Res texture pack.
-Penguin
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Penguin, do you know how developers are able to make a DX11 game maintain compatibility with DX9? I've seen it, but I'm not sure how they do it. If I recall correctly, BF3 is not one of those titles, but that might be because it's using DX11 instead of 10.
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It's not just drag and drop; according to the Wiki, it's a full port for each version.
-Penguin
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It's not just drag and drop; according to the Wiki, it's a full port for each version.
-Penguin
That's unfortunate to hear, that means that it will probably be quite some time before HTC adopts DX10 or 11.
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See Rule #4
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If you mean 'wong' as an expression, then the mistake is far worse; you've made nonsense.
Anyway. I've already stated the advantages of DX11 over DX9:
<snip>
And yet, everything you stated is wrong. You have bought into the marketing of a product and have absolutely no technical basis for any of your claims.
Did you know AMD and NVidia have been in talks over producing a new graphical API to get around the bloat of DX11? That is how bad the performance is. Thier hardware is being strangled by the overhead.
The rest is just nonsense. Just because Microsoft provides a library function for something does not mean it cannot be done in any other version of DirectX.
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Did you know AMD and NVidia have been in talks over producing a new graphical API to get around the bloat of DX11? That is how bad the performance is. Thier hardware is being strangled by the overhead.
Is there a reason they don't just start promoting the use of OpenGL? Or is it just as bloated as DX?
Either way, a mass exodus away from DirectX would be awesome, as I would no longer feel the need to run Windows... (Hooray Linux! :banana: )
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OpenGL moves too slowly to adopt new hardware features. The support for it is quite inconsistent as well.
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So Skuzzy says it, so it shall be. I hereby retract the wish.
-Penguin
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So Skuzzy says it, so it shall be. I hereby retract the wish.
-Penguin
Actually, NVidia and AMD/ATI said it. The rest is easy enough to prove just by writting some code to do comparisons, instead of buying into the marketing speak.
No one has to take my word for anything.