Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kovel on January 25, 2012, 03:42:40 AM
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Hya guys,
I've tried to find out, using badz's method, corner speed for dora.
100% fuel
Mil power
no flaps
sea level
my results are CS = 300 mph.
żDoes anyone have this value just to verify?
Thanks in advance.
:salute
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Offhand I don't recall the figure for the 190D but if your stall speed is around 123 MPH then the corner speed would be 300.
Corner speed in Aces High is simply the lowest speed that allows you to pull 6 Gs so if you can pull 6 at 300 and you can't pull 6 at 290 MPH you can also verify it that way.
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Offhand I don't recall the figure for the 190D but if your stall speed is around 123 MPH then the corner speed would be 300.
Corner speed in Aces High is simply the lowest speed that allows you to pull 6 Gs so if you can pull 6 at 300 and you can't pull 6 at 290 MPH you can also verify it that way.
Thanks FLS,
very clarifying...I'll check it out
:salute
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my results are CS = 300 mph.
żDoes anyone have this value just to verify?
Hi Kovel
I get a corner velocity of 280mph with the same configuration as you.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
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285 is what I've memorized and what I try my best to never get slower than, Bads 280 seems right if not on the conservative side... mind you, expect to experience a violent snap to the left under that much laden weight (100% fuel) and torque (mil power at SL), while trying to pull 6gs... it's not the easiest thing to do in a Dora, just be careful jumping into it with a ham-fist, unless you're ready/prepared to counter the strong desire for the left wing to snap low (and assuming you're alrady cruising at SL) you're probabley going to put her in the drink a few times pulling back too hard or abruptly.
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Corner speed is fleeting. It only helps if you're pulling 6Gs. If you're pulling Gs you aren't going to be at corner speed except for a brief moment before you slow down. So flying a gentle bank turn at 285 IAS isn't going to keep you turning better than if you just "pulled into it" at 200 IAS, for example.
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Hi BadBoy,
Thank you for check it out and share it.
Now I have a reference value to check If I'm doing the test correctly and try to repeat the test with other configurations a/o planes.
Thanks Sir
:salute
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Who needs to corner anyway? Flat turn fights are not only boring, they are lacking in imagination and creativity and whoever rely on flat turns anytime in a fight end up dead. It's a matter of E management regardless of whether you are in a spit using "TnB" tactics or a 190 using "BnZ"tactics. All fights are energy fights, however this point is lost on most people. When do people usually end up using flat turns? On the deck when slow and out of options.
Good luck with the corner speeds. :aok
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You can use corner speed in several interesting situations and really take profit of them.
I used to kill Spits in my F4u (Airwarrior) using Energy management and using F4u CV. When you use properly is when your victim calls out how you managed to turn that plane like that.
Now I'd like to see if corner velocity can be used in the same way with the Dora in AH. I still don't know, as AW was much less realistic than AH, but let's say...more technically pure (if it makes any sense). So, this kind of stuff (i.e. corner speed) were really important there.
Thank you for your opinions in this subject :)
:salute
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Now I'd like to see if corner velocity can be used in the same way with the Dora in AH.
Not to the same degree of success as in other a/c. I know, have tried it many times when the opportunity presents itself and very seldom does it work. You just don't get there in time before he pull up and out of sight.
When you use properly is when your victim calls out how you managed to turn that plane like that.
Technically speaking, maximum degrees/second can be achieved in the vertical reverse and nowhere else. I know the sweet spot for lady Dora but it's not like I'll tell everyone about it. You'll have to find out for yourself.
Happy hunting. :salute
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You're exactly correct Kovel and you'll find that your fastest turn rate and smallest radius is at corner speed in Aces High.
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Within 2 turns, most fights happen way below corner speed, unless you are just BnZing and have entered the fight with an 'e' adv.
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Who needs to corner anyway? Flat turn fights are not only boring, they are lacking in imagination and creativity and whoever rely on flat turns anytime in a fight end up dead. It's a matter of E management regardless of whether you are in a spit using "TnB" tactics or a 190 using "BnZ"tactics. All fights are energy fights, however this point is lost on most people. When do people usually end up using flat turns? On the deck when slow and out of options.
Good luck with the corner speeds. :aok
That just about sums it up. :aok
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I really don't know how a bunch of spitdweebs came in here and hijacked the thread sharing their opinion on turn fighting in a thread about 190s and corner speed, but hey it's right there in the title - "190s suck", right? :aok :headscratch:
Knowing and being aware of your CS is good procedure/habit for a pilot capable of digesting basic ACM.
It's important for simple turn fighting, but it's also imperative for knowing so you can keep yourself in a constant situation of being capable of pulling the most agressive of maneuvers, both for defencive and offencive aspects.... you know, the proverbial opposite of inadvertently putting yourself in a situation where you'll be a sitting duck or cooked goose. :D
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Who needs to corner anyway?
I did during the most recent KOTH TOC. If you want to be successful in a dueling competition, its a good idea to learn how to flat turn.
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If you want to be successful in a dueling competition, its a good idea to learn how to flat turn.
Yes, this is true. :aok
For dissimilar air combat in a dynamic environment in which you can position yourself before the fight, it is less of a factor.
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Corner Speed + vertical movements is the easiest way to kill better turners in a FW190 D9. Badbod have great lectures about how to do it
:aok
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I did during the most recent KOTH TOC. If you want to be successful in a dueling competition, its a good idea to learn how to flat turn.
you met Pervert, huh? Not wondering youre talking about flat turns even 2 weeks after the ToC..
Corner Speed + vertical movements is the easiest way to kill better turners in a FW190 D9. Badbod have great lectures about how to do it
What do you mean? More energy + vertical rope-a-dope/BnZ?
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Who needs to corner anyway? Flat turn fights are not only boring, they are lacking in imagination and creativity and whoever rely on flat turns anytime in a fight end up dead. It's a matter of E management regardless of whether you are in a spit using "TnB" tactics or a 190 using "BnZ"tactics. All fights are energy fights, however this point is lost on most people. When do people usually end up using flat turns? On the deck when slow and out of options.
Good luck with the corner speeds. :aok
Anyone who confuses corner speed with best sustained turn speed is going to have trouble with flat turns.
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A typical dissimilar air combat engagement is never on equal terms, rarely predictable, and completely fluid.
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(http://jpeghoster.com/images/40032087533598341444.jpg)
(http://jpeghoster.com/images/68838385772153175929.jpg)
(http://jpeghoster.com/images/33045299631751284230.jpg)
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you met Pervert, huh? Not wondering youre talking about flat turns even 2 weeks after the ToC..
What do you mean? More energy + vertical rope-a-dope/BnZ?
Nah Suns actually went and learnt by his past fights he didn't log in a rage or delude himself, or expect his opponent to fight his way and cry about it , I got big respect for the guy for that :salute Suns
On the topic of flat turning in a Dora I would have to say its of limited use unless its like for like and equal fuel load ie 25% if you tried this in the MA not knowing your opponents fuel state or even gun load you will come a croper as weight makes a big difference to how tight you can turn.
Also using flaps does not make a big enough difference in radius, the plane that keeps its flaps up will turn ever so slightly wider but will be faster than the guy with the flaps out and will catch him.
The only time I would go hard for a turn is if I know my opponent is slow and unable to turn well.
A few screens of an overshoot using roll in the vertical to conserve E and finish out on top, if you notice from the top shot it is very difficult for the guys trying to turn to get guns on me with a roll I can make a tighter radius so long as I get my nose pointed up quick from the bottom. This is the only way you can 'turn' a dora competitively by matching roll in the vert to turn in the horizontal and stalling out higher, if you have done it right you should drop on someone it bad shape ie recovering from a stall and below best manoeuvring speed, evens the playing field slightly.
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(http://jpeghoster.com/images/40032087533598341444.jpg)
(http://jpeghoster.com/images/68838385772153175929.jpg)
(http://jpeghoster.com/images/33045299631751284230.jpg)
Kewl film snapshots, pervert!
did you do the color editing for trails on these pics? or has the film viewer been updated to now include different colors per plane's trails?
I sure hope it is the latter, i been wishing for that for many a year now.....
I got to go check that out........
TC
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What do you mean? More energy + vertical rope-a-dope/BnZ?
Rolling scissors and Corner Speed, for exemple.
I don't think its the "panacea", but its another tool that if used in the right moment I guess It could give you an edge.
:salute
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You have to be able to feel the aircraft. It's as much an art as science. Yes, knowledge of corner speed and other performance figures may be able to give you the edge. But, I also think terms such as corner speed are attempts to quantify what a good stick calculates almost automatically in his head. You have to be able to see trends. Like, "am I gaining or losing as this turn progresses", then adjust accordingly. Such terms and such discussions are useful training tools. But If I can put steel on target, then, as said by a certain famous red tri-plane flyer, "all else is rubbish".
The 190 is my preferred mount.
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All terminology are attempts to generalize and categorize maneuvers. Truth is every situation is unique, there are always grey zones where one maneuver become very similar to another and distinguishing what exactly it was you just pulled off become almost impossible. Terminology, while useful in the study of ACM, is useless in the air. Because if you start thinking like it's a game of chess you will always find yourself behind (or in front of rather) a intuitive and aggressive opponent.
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Kewl film snapshots, pervert!
did you do the color editing for trails on these pics? or has the film viewer been updated to now include different colors per plane's trails?
I sure hope it is the latter, i been wishing for that for many a year now.....
I got to go check that out........
TC
Nah I colored them in, in photoshop trails in film viewer are very confusing the same color, I started on these a while back for boo I will still have to hunt for the film I took them from :bhead while films are good I do not think they show a planes movement well through 3d space as a picture. I have some half finished project in illustrator with smoother trails and the relevent speeds of the aircraft on the trail paths but it takes a very long time to do :(
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All terminology are attempts to generalize and categorize maneuvers. Truth is every situation is unique, there are always grey zones where one maneuver become very similar to another and distinguishing what exactly it was you just pulled off become almost impossible. Terminology, while useful in the study of ACM, is useless in the air. Because if you start thinking like it's a game of chess you will always find yourself behind (or in front of rather) a intuitive and aggressive opponent.
I wouldn't agree with that, you can always break down a fight into simple maneuvers even in a 190 a variation or a transition into another move. If you do not know what you pulled off, film it review it and understand it then the extraordinary becomes the norm.
I used to have these moments I filmed everything once I performed one of these I filmed it and watched it back, after a while reviewing these for a while you find common things that make it a success, watching in recorded views you will also find patterns of failure before you even engage that you can bolster your SA with.
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I used to do that a lot which is imho necessary to become really good, but I tend to not care so much for the technicalities of the fight when 'in' it. It's easy enough to label a maneuver as such and such and transitioning into such and such but understanding why is infinitely more complicated than analyzing in a debrief what happened. To take but one crucial factor as a example, timing, if your timing is of by 1/10th of a second that sometimes make the difference between victory and defeat.
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Love flying the D-9 but with this latest patch it seems slower. Anybody else notice this or is it just me? :headscratch:
At sea level, wep on it appears to take longer to get up to speed.
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I used to do that a lot which is imho necessary to become really good, but I tend to not care so much for the technicalities of the fight when 'in' it. It's easy enough to label a maneuver as such and such and transitioning into such and such but understanding why is infinitely more complicated than analyzing in a debrief what happened. To take but one crucial factor as a example, timing, if your timing is of by 1/10th of a second that sometimes make the difference between victory and defeat.
Yep, the fundamental building blocks of air combat are energy, geometry and time.
Its the complexity and variety in the way those things combine to form air combat maneuvers that provides the intellectual challenge that keeps me interested and makes it so much fun.
But that same complexity and variety and the imperfect language we use to share our ideas is the reason there are so many debates about it, and that can also be fun :)
Badboy
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Love flying the D-9 but with this latest patch it seems slower. Anybody else notice this or is it just me? :headscratch:
At sea level, wep on it appears to take longer to get up to speed.
I haven't noticed, at least not in the most recent patches, so not to be mean but I think it's you. :aok But seriously, make sure you take note of laden weight or the presence of an ETC 501 rack.
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Yep, the fundamental building blocks of air combat are energy, geometry and time.
Its the complexity and variety in the way those things combine to form air combat maneuvers that provides the intellectual challenge that keeps me interested and makes it so much fun.
But that same complexity and variety and the imperfect language we use to share our ideas is the reason there are so many debates about it, and that can also be fun :)
Badboy
Well said and I agree. :)
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I haven't noticed, at least not in the most recent patches, so not to be mean but I think it's you. :aok But seriously, make sure you take note of laden weight or the presence of an ETC 501 rack.
OK. slight amendment to that because I just gave it a good going through, everything with the Dora and the speed charts in AH is up to snuff, but I swear I was chasing a P-51D on the deck (20-30 feet) for ~2 sectors, and that SOB had to of at least been holding ~370 if not equal speed with me. P-51D change? Lucky Pony err Runstang?
Love flying the D-9 but with this latest patch it seems slower. Anybody else notice this or is it just me? :headscratch:
At sea level, wep on it appears to take longer to get up to speed.
Were you chasing ponys? ( :devil ) I apologize for my earlier statement, I came to a point tonight seriously thinking you may be correct and something is amiss or has been changed if not with the Dora then somewhere else. But I actually went through tonight up to even trying it clean and in attack mode, and matched the speed charts. I did not however test acceleration rates, but they seem to be normal.
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Yes chasing 51's. No numbers just feels slower, not accell but top speed I think. Perhaps the 190d just was neutered to match it's charts and was too fast before? The 190a5 seems just as fast as the D now but with better agility. Seeing a lot more A5's of late.
Sorry not scientific but it was immediately apparent because I fly the D so much.
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Can't say I've played much lately... but when was this change implemented? I do know the D-9 well, and know the difference between carrying the ETC 501 or not is the difference between life and death when it comes down to speedflying with ponies. Were you flying clean without the rack at the time?
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Can't say I've played much lately... but when was this change implemented? I do know the D-9 well, and know the difference between carrying the ETC 501 or not is the difference between life and death when it comes down to speedflying with ponies. Were you flying clean without the rack at the time?
Yes no rack (No bomb loaded). Just since new patch and noticed on several sorties. I can't check numbers before the patch so I've got nothing to compare with the way it feels now. I used to eat them runstangs up. Now I just give up the chase. Guess it's time to explore some other rides. :)
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Yes... the D-9 at least used to be able to run down mustangs on the deck if clean without the ETC 501 rack. If that is no longer possible, well no biggie it's not what I fly the D-9 for specifically but it will make it somewhat more of a challenge in those situations you are being chased. There is actually plenty of test data available on the D-9 performance in various configurations, the standard fit was with the ETC 501 always on whether DT was carried or not. If this supposed change is accurate to actual (historical) data or not I can not tell, but it would be interesting to know.
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Yes no rack (No bomb loaded). Just since new patch and noticed on several sorties. I can't check numbers before the patch so I've got nothing to compare with the way it feels now. I used to eat them runstangs up. Now I just give up the chase. Guess it's time to explore some other rides. :)
You can't check the speed charts?
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You can't check the speed charts?
The speed chart may be correct for this version and patch but can't verify speed chart is accurate to the former version of AH.
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The speed chart may be correct for this version and patch but can't verify speed chart is accurate to the former version of AH.
OK so we're just talking about feelings. It feels the same to me. :aok
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Yes chasing 51's. No numbers just feels slower, not accell but top speed I think. Perhaps the 190d just was neutered to match it's charts and was too fast before? The 190a5 seems just as fast as the D now but with better agility. Seeing a lot more A5's of late.
Sorry not scientific but it was immediately apparent because I fly the D so much.
Something's different as of late. Against a pony on the deck w/ WEP on while in a D9, yeah, something has been changed, it's not the same it used to be.
I experienced it a bit with some ponys over the water last night. I'll throw up a bug thread soon asking for research/clarification if we can't trace it to an announced/documented change (I'll scoure the changelogs tonight or tomorrow).
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Can't say I've played much lately... but when was this change implemented? I do know the D-9 well, and know the difference between carrying the ETC 501 or not is the difference between life and death when it comes down to speedflying with ponies. Were you flying clean without the rack at the time?
I tested it w/, w/o, attack mode, fighter mode, 100% clean in each mode and 25% clean in each mode (I first noticed this while in a clean D9 in attack mode... don't ask). I too know, penalties are still in place and aprorpiate at ground level (and I was thurough and patient, giving plenty of time for it to reach the speed and settle at it).
You can't check the speed charts?
He might not of have, but I did. In game charts and the actual D-9s performance matches. I suspect this is an issue (increase in performance or a change in the numbers somewhere) with the pony, which I have not done any testing with (or even been flying in since the latest patches).
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Yes, I was about to say... perhaps the change is with the P51 and not the D-9?
Oh I so wish we had either the D-11, D-12 or D-13, but only a handful were built I think the D-12 may be the most numerous with a little more than a dozen that saw service. It may be a stretch but it qualifies to be included and although I agree there are many other a/c worthy of addition before the D-12, I have a special affection for the 190 family. The D-12 was significantly faster than the D-9 and was armed with 2 x MG151 + 1 x Mk108 just like the Ta152 we have in AH.
:devil
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I have been very busy this weekend, I spent no time further on this. I did play a little though in the MAs and have been putting attention twords it. I think it may be with pony retaining more speed/E (or retaining it better/longer) than it used to after diving out and making no furher deviations (I know mustangs are good at that sort of thing, but for 2-2.5 sectors though, really?!)
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The Dora used to be able to catch a pony on the deck when stripped of the ETC501, if this was historically accurate or not is hard to tell as the D was equipped with the rack as standard. It would be nice if HTC could comment on this and explain what changes were made and if it was intentional or not, it could be a secondary effect of some other change.