Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: captain1ma on January 31, 2012, 08:52:09 AM
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Operation Steinschleuder(rock catapult)
It's late 1945 and the Germans are looking to expand their position. while they failed their first attempt(operation Sea lion) at taking Britain, they're giving it a second shot. up until now, Germany has been able to sustain the war effort and fend off attacks by the British and the US.
the Germans now have 2 carriers available and all latewar aircraft. the US is still backing Britain, but they are losing planes and pilots due to attrition. Dday was a total failure due weather conditions and preparedness of the Axis forces. Germany's Blitz kreig and superior forces have allowed Germany to capture the oil fields of southern Russia and hold a line of dominance without further loses. Hitler couldn't be happier, but wants another shot at Britain and wants to try to make it a German colony.
map-- Bob09
VOX for both 123
Icons:
Friendly--2.4k
Enemy--check MOTD
AXIS--
BF109F(sub for 109T) Carrier based
BF109G-2
BF109G-6
BF109G-14
BF109K4
FW190A-5
FW190D-9
FW190F-8
TA152
JU88(Carrier based and land based)
JU87(Carrier based and land based)
HE111(Sub G4M)
ME162(check Motd for location)
ME262(check Motd for location)
C202
C205
JU52(sub C47)
Storch
GV's:
TigerI
TigerII
Panther
Panzer
SDKFZ-251
Jeep
Wirblewind
Ostewind
ALLIES:
A20
B17
B25
B26
Lancaster
C47
p38-G
p38-J
p38-L
P47-D11
P47-D40
P47-N
P51-B
P51-D
Spit9
Spit14
Spit16
tempest
typhoon
GV's:
M3
M4
M8
M16
M18
Sherman Firefly
Jeep
Pershing(Sub Panther)
objective: capture port on English soil near London. once P106 is capture, the Axis will be given a Airbase A15 and Vbase 117 to work out of. the object is to capture as many Allied bases as possible.
Weather-- variable.
radar-1945, but might be adjusted. dot dar and bar dar, both on.
Icons: check MOTD
Wind-Variable
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Should be lots of action once that pesky English Channel is no longer a barrier~ and everyone gets their dream plane :aok
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Just from a plausibility standpoint, the following would never be remotely even plausible in the described setup:
109f4 (109E is a better T standin but that's still retired by then)
109g2
109g6 (early 1942 version, long gone, use G-14 instead)
190a5 (short run, stopped mid-1943)
ju87 (only used for anti tank duties that late in the war)
c202 (1941 airframe)
c205 (replaced with 109G14s/K4s halfway through 1944)
p38G (short run, 1942, replaced quickly)
p47d11 (really nonexistent at this time, mostly a PTO plane)
p47N (long range PTO version, sub European P-47M in limited numbers instead)
spit9 (1942 variant, LONG gone by 1945. Spit16 is LFIXe, so use it instead for later-era horsepower).
G4M1 betty (1941 no armor no performance no payload... no reason)
Me163 (point defense, not forward deployable, not for offensive action)
Not intended to stir anything up, just saying that most of those wouldn't be anywhere NEAR this kind of setup.
Late war you'd have:
P-51B/D
P-47D40 (this actually was a late plane)
Limited P-47M
Spit8/16 to fill in for late-era spit9s with higher boost, giving you the option of clipped wings or not
spit14
temp
typh
against:
109g14
109k4
190d9
190a8
190f8 (replacing most jabo, ju87, etc)
me262
ta152 (in limited numbers)
Ju88
Ar234
Betty doesn't fit at all. Not only is it nowhere near a match to the He111 it's not even in the same parsec as the other planes in the list. Might as well put a B5N in there for the same effect. The He111 was long since replaced as the frontline fighter with faster and better bombers. The Ju88 was one of them, though by 1945 even this was replaced. The He111 was a private transport many times at the end of the war. It wasn't carrying bombs. It wasn't a frontline bomber in 1945 that's for sure. No need to sub something in for it.
Nice idea, nice premise, but you're shoe-horning planes in there that really don't fit just for the sake of adding variety... Well it's just random stuff after a certain point. Might as well enable them all and have an MA seletion if ya do that.
So, sorry if this stirs up anything other than "thought" on the matter. It is intended for the betterment of the arena and the setup only (i.e. discussing it can only help).
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I agree seadog, this should be a FUN setup that attracts a lot of pilots to the AvA, just what we have been waiting for!!! Just wondering though, how are you gonna work the 262 so that every single pilot isn't flying one every sortie? I will be flying Axis for this scenario, I think that it would be very cool to line up squads ands and such much the same way FSO is run so we can get some real good Missions/Battles raging, thoughts?
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how are you gonna work the 262 so that every single pilot isn't flying one every sortie?
As a random thought... How about disabling the 262 and simply enabling free ar234s everywhere? Hitler, in his mad plans, has reinstated his Me262 "bomber" program and with the focus moved away from attacking 1000-bomber hordes, the 262 fighter variant is stopped in favor of creating a bomber that can "blitz" its way back into London.
The 262 with bombs was slower, heavier, and a bit more like an Ar234. Just disable the tail guns in the CM setup.
Fair tradeoff? Temps and prop planes can catch them pretty easy, but they're faster than Ju88s by a long shot.
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thanks for you dissertation on the setup, krusty, we knew we could count on it.
262's and 163 will be back far enough to be mostly out of play, but availabe if someone wants to take the time to get them there. if the Axis should begin a assault on mainland England, they may be moved up some, but not enough to take over the setup. the idea is to make this fun interesting and different. thats the outcome We're hoping for. JG54 should be in there most of the week, and ill plan something big for thursday night to add a twist too it.
hopefully everyone will have a good time and thats all that matters
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p47d11 (really nonexistent at this time, mostly a PTO plane)
Not intended to stir anything up, just saying that most of those wouldn't be anywhere NEAR this kind of setup.
This is a semi-fictional setup w German carriers operating in the English Channel late war. As long as 262 are nowhere near the forward lines, from my experience, players will up what they can from the closest two bases for some swirling low level dogfights. That said 9th AF operated may Razorback P-47s through the end of the war from bases in France. Look at all the stock footage and you will see older O.D. Razorbacks mixed in formations of bare metal bubble tops. The same goes for CBI and in the Philippians as well where they were heavily into 1945. In a true Late War set up we would not find Luftwaffe operating in any force post invasion near GB and the English channel. This will definitely have some mass appeal~ hope to see you in there<S> Seadog36
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Just from a plausibility standpoint, the following would never be remotely even plausible in the described setup:
109f4 (109E is a better T standin but that's still retired by then)
109g2
109g6 (early 1942 version, long gone, use G-14 instead)
190a5 (short run, stopped mid-1943)
ju87 (only used for anti tank duties that late in the war)
c202 (1941 airframe)
c205 (replaced with 109G14s/K4s halfway through 1944)
p38G (short run, 1942, replaced quickly)
p47d11 (really nonexistent at this time, mostly a PTO plane)
p47N (long range PTO version, sub European P-47M in limited numbers instead)
spit9 (1942 variant, LONG gone by 1945. Spit16 is LFIXe, so use it instead for later-era horsepower).
G4M1 betty (1941 no armor no performance no payload... no reason)
Me163 (point defense, not forward deployable, not for offensive action)
Not intended to stir anything up, just saying that most of those wouldn't be anywhere NEAR this kind of setup.
Late war you'd have:
P-51B/D
P-47D40 (this actually was a late plane)
Limited P-47M
Spit8/16 to fill in for late-era spit9s with higher boost, giving you the option of clipped wings or not
spit14
temp
typh
against:
109g14
109k4
190d9
190a8
190f8 (replacing most jabo, ju87, etc)
me262
ta152 (in limited numbers)
Ju88
Ar234
Betty doesn't fit at all. Not only is it nowhere near a match to the He111 it's not even in the same parsec as the other planes in the list. Might as well put a B5N in there for the same effect. The He111 was long since replaced as the frontline fighter with faster and better bombers. The Ju88 was one of them, though by 1945 even this was replaced. The He111 was a private transport many times at the end of the war. It wasn't carrying bombs. It wasn't a frontline bomber in 1945 that's for sure. No need to sub something in for it.
Nice idea, nice premise, but you're shoe-horning planes in there that really don't fit just for the sake of adding variety... Well it's just random stuff after a certain point. Might as well enable them all and have an MA seletion if ya do that.
So, sorry if this stirs up anything other than "thought" on the matter. It is intended for the betterment of the arena and the setup only (i.e. discussing it can only help).
jeeze dude!! i think he said it's kind of a "what if" thing. people were asking for a set with a lot of availble rides, and he gives them to them.....and some schmuck has to complain? :rolleyes:
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captain: The 163 though was only a fixed point defense fighter. Setting it up in an offensive role is a gross mis-use of it in an unhistorical context.
Seadog: Yes, some razorbacks were, but these were variants well up into the D-22 range, and not representative of what our D-11 is. These later versions combined performance and capabilities of our in-game D-25 and D-40 airframes. The D-11 is not a good fit. The capabilities and ground-pounding loadouts were retrofitted as the performance was improved, and the end result was most of them were the equivelant of a D-30 or D-40, even if they had a different official model number.
Cap: No, some schmuck had to troll a very legit post and start insulting people. You should ask him to stop. I'll wait while you find a mirror to do so.
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i'll apologize for the insult.
capt.'s intention was to give what a lot of people have been saying they want(i think). that something was a fun setup, with a very broad choice of aircraft to fly. this is the result. it's probably gonna be a VERY fun set just as he has it.
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flying Luftwaffe birds from a CV is a favorite "what if" of mine. will be there for this one
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Seadog: Yes, some razorbacks were, but these were variants well up into the D-22 range, and not representative of what our D-11 is. These later versions combined performance and capabilities of our in-game D-25 and D-40 airframes. The D-11 is not a good fit. The capabilities and ground-pounding loadouts were retrofitted as the performance was improved, and the end result was most of them were the equivelant of a D-30 or D-40, even if they had a different official model number.
Krusty, there is only a fairly small difference in speed and climb rate between the old and new props. Only an improvement of 300 fpm in climb rate and less than 10mph speed increase at 56" Hg. Some older model razorbacks were upgraded with the universal wing, which incidentally caused a 15 mph speed penalty.
The only "major" difference between D15 and later bubble tops was the larger prop and addition of 70 more gals of internal fuel. The M and N were equipped with a larger CH-5 turbosupercharger. This new engine offered a war emergency power of 2800 hp at 32,500 feet with water injection. None of the D's had this radical increase in power.
So aside from wing pylons the D11 is not so different performance wise. That's why I have long argued sticking pylons on the D-11 airframe and giving it D-25 performance.
Here are some actual Republic Performance tests to back up my assertions:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47.html
And additional production and variant information:
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p47_4.html
I don't know why you have to polarize with me on this very clear cut and well supported issue. It is a good easy and important addition to the game, Much like the Ki-43.
:salute
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As a random thought... How about disabling the 262 and simply enabling free ar234s everywhere? Hitler, in his mad plans, has reinstated his Me262 "bomber" program and with the focus moved away from attacking 1000-bomber hordes, the 262 fighter variant is stopped in favor of creating a bomber that can "blitz" its way back into London.
The 262 with bombs was slower, heavier, and a bit more like an Ar234. Just disable the tail guns in the CM setup.
Fair tradeoff? Temps and prop planes can catch them pretty easy, but they're faster than Ju88s by a long shot.
Wow, I am very impressed with this comment...I was just reading Stephan Ambrose D-Day and in the 1st Chapter titled "The Defenders" it makes reference to this major blunder by Herr Schikelgruber when Goering assured him the 262 could be modified to carry bombs, and that it was to be known as the "Blitz Bomber" lol! I mean, there should be 262s allowed as this is 1945 and only in the last weeks of the war were the Germans able to get a hundred 262s in the air at once....but I love this Idea Krusty.
+10!!!
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please re-read my first paragraph and understand it. Germany is doing well.
Operation Steinschleuder(rock catapult)
Germany has been able to sustain the war effort and fend off attacks by the British and the US.
the Germans now have 2 carriers available and all latewar aircraft. the US is still backing Britain, but they are losing planes and pilots due to attrition. Dday was a total failure due weather conditions and preparedness of the Axis forces. Germany's Blitz kreig and superior forces have allowed Germany to capture the oil fields of southern Russia and hold a line of dominance without further loses. Hitler couldn't be happier, but wants another shot at Britain and wants to try to make it a German colony.
We all know thats not what really happened. so lets all just relax, buckle up and enjoy ride, it will be fun!
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Krusty is right about the Spit IX though. It is a 1942 Spitfire and has no place in a 1945 setting.
The Mossie VI and XVI were both in wide deployment in 1945 though.
You'd probably want to give the Allies the Storch as a sub for the L-4 Grasshopper or Lysander as well.
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changes in the setup:
P47-D11 changed to a P47-D25
added both mosquito's
storch for both sides.
ME163 and ME262--Not in play, it was late and i wasn't sure where to put them. will figure it out today and put them somewhere "safe".
<Edit> Allies Get the Panther to sub for the Pershing***
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I'd rather not have the tiger 2 or 163/262s. all people will want to do is use those
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updated planeset list:
AXIS--
BF109F(sub for 109T) Carrier based
BF109G-2
BF109G-6
BF109G-14
BF109K4
FW190A-5
FW190D-9
FW190F-8
TA152
JU88(Carrier based and land based)
JU87(Carrier based and land based)
HE111(Sub G4M)
ME162(Out of play at this time)
ME262(Out of play at this time)
C202
C205
JU52(sub C47)
Storch
GV's:
TigerI
TigerII
Panther
Panzer
SDKFZ-251
Jeep
Wirblewind
Ostewind
ALLIES:
A20
B17
B25
B26
Lancaster
C47
Mosquito's-both
p38-G
p38-J
p38-L
P47-D25
P47-D40
P47-N
P51-B
P51-D
Spit9
Spit14
Spit16
tempest
typhoon
L-4n(sup storch)
GV's:
M3
M4
M8
M16
M18
Sherman Firefly
Jeep
Pershing(Sub Panther)
carriers controlable
5inch manned guns, puffy ack--turned down
regular ack .5 probably will be turned down lower
again it was late last night when i got it setup, my apologies for the delay
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After all this discussion you got rid of the D11 in the fantasy AvA scenario?
There was going to be at least one person playing in the arena to get things moving, but I guess It can stay empty.
I'm done with AvA, leave it to the crickets.
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planeset adjustment
carriers--now have LVT's
P47D11 added back in.
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you got rid of the D-11 in the fantasy AVA scenario?
I'm done with AvA, leave it to the crickets.
(http://home.online.no/~kgroenn/disney/pinocchio/timmi4.gif)
P47D11 added back in.
(http://th396.photobucket.com/albums/pp44/blueangel_38/disney/th_Picture64.png)
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Shifty...
That flag is hypnotising me..... Can you make it blow up or something its to tranquil..... :D
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Tranquil is my middle name. :D
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Tranquil is my middle name. :D
err Yea .. and mines Mellow... :rock
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:furious, my cricket blew a gasket.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Urbanflotsom1/Jiminy-Cricket-wallpaper.png)
Sometimes when you wish upon a star on the bbs, dreams can come true :aok
Time to present a razor sharp 7 ton profile to axis gunners
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(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Urbanflotsom1/Jiminy-Cricket-wallpaper.png)
did you take the cookies? I'll beleive you if you say you didnt
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dont miss the fun boys and girls, late war rides. check it out!
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This has been fun when we get a few peeps in there<<S>>
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Good fun last night.
<S>