Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Ack-Ack on February 02, 2012, 08:06:32 PM
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Maybe dive bombing heavy bombers in game are based on reality after all.
The first year of WWII in the Pacific was a disaster for America. The Navy was devastated by the cowardly sneak attack at Pearl Harbor, the Army suffered the crushing surrender at Bataan and the war crime murders in the Brutal Bataan death march. The Army Air Corp. was also decimated, chased by the Japanese from the Philippines and across the south pacific, all the way to Australia.
America wanted revenge, but we were outnumbered and out-gunned by a brutal enemy who would behead American prisoners. This is the story of how a small group of airmen in the 19th Bomb Group made a daring raid over Rabaul Harbor, using a B-17 as a dive bomber to sink an enemy ship.
The B-17 is a large heavy 4-engine bomber, not designed to work as a dive bomber, but we were desperate for a victory over the Japanese, and desperate times called for desperate measures.
Rabaul harbor was a major Japanese port, heavy guarded by Flack cannons and machine guns, impenetrable in daylight. The only hope of a victory was to attack at night when the Japanese gunners could not see the B-17, but the cover of darkness worked both ways. Even with the top-secret Norden bombsights, they needed light to see the targets. And even if we could see the ships, a freighter is a mighty small target at 20,000 feet.
Read the rest of the story, "Dive Bombing a B-17" here (http://www.dba-oracle.com/dive_bombing_b_17.htm).
ack-ack
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Great story :aok & bugger now the arguments are this will be historically correct for AHII. :(
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bugger now the arguments are this will be historically correct for AHII. :(
:t
ack-ack
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Oh boy....good going AKAK :confused:
I bet few will read past the part where they "planned to use a B17 as a dive bomber" and the picture of a diving B17, to the part further down where they dove to a lower altitude to bomb their target.
and even fewer will understand that important distance...
...and even fewer will read my post : /
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Im curious the angle in which they dived, theirr air speed, and the alt they dropped ords. That would say a lot.
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I think it's funny that when it happens to your own country it's a cowardly sneak attack. When it's a person's own country we call it as preemptive strike.
Either way, they can be very effective.
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I think it's funny that when it happens to your own country it's a cowardly sneak attack. When it's a person's own country we call it as preemptive strike.
Either way, they can be very effective.
There is a difference in attacking a country that you haven't declared war on and attacking a country after you've declared are on them.
ack-ack
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This is true. I believe it is good strategy but also has drawbacks when it comes to being trusted after the war.
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Any other references to this event AKAK? Can't find mention in any of the 5th AF stuff or in "Fortress against the Sun" about the 17s fighting Japan.
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Any other references to this event AKAK? Can't find mention in any of the 5th AF stuff or in "Fortress against the Sun" about the 17s fighting Japan.
I haven't really searched, I just stumbled on this site and saw that it was a son telling the story of his father's military career.
Lt. Col. Louis Francis Burleson, USAF (http://www.travel-golf.org/genealogy/louis_f_burleson.htm)
In the story it mentions that there is a book that describes the event (“A Fiery Peace in a Cold War”) of 9/23/42 and I'm sure it has to be possible verify his DFC. This is the supposed citation.
"For meritorious achievement as gunner while participating in an aerial flight over ****, New Britain, on 23 September 1942.
This officer and these enlisted men were crew members of a B-17 dispatched to drop flares and bombs in a night raid on a concentration of shipping at this enemy stronghold. After the flares were released, at least thirty vessels were observed in the harbor.
The crew made eight bombing runs at 8,000 feet, but during each attempt, vision was obscured by a thin strata cloud. Despite a barrage of anti-aircraft fire from numerous ships and shore batteries, the B-17 dived to 1,500 feet and released three bombs over a group of four vessels.
A direct hit was scored on a large cargo ship and a near miss on a 12,000 ton transport. Although the plane sustained six damaging hits by shell fragments, it managed to escape from the hail of fire. The courage and devotion to duty displayed by these crew members is worthy of commendation."
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There is a difference in attacking a country that you haven't declared war on and attacking a country after you've declared are on them. ack-ack [/quote Declare war? when, who? last time the U.S. did it was WWII, last i checked they have been fighting ever since as well.
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I'd have to think that anyone who compares the way the Japanese did business to what the US does now isn't
much of a historian. They screwed the pooch when they failed to deliver their diplomatic message before the attack
commenced. You can't say that Saddam didn't get a fair warning. You might be able to claim that Panama and
Grenada didn't though.
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As to the story, I'm a bit skeptical of a story where they installed 1000 lbs of steel armor around the cockpit to avoid
"flack" cannon damage in a night dive bombing attack. Or the part where bullets sounded like rain on a tin roof during the
attack. It sounds like someone doing a little embellishing to his son in a war story.
Btw, Japanese anti-aircraft was called ack-ack, the Germans used Flak...short for Flugabwehrkannone...among others.
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Declare war? when, who? last time the U.S. did it was WWII, last i checked they have been fighting ever since as well.
You're not very bright are you?
ack-ack
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There is a difference in attacking a country that you haven't declared war on and attacking a country after you've declared are on them.
ack-ack
i don't believe Israel ever declared war on her Arab neighbors in the 60s when she attacked them. hmm. then again they wont admit they were attacked either.
it does not matter if you declare war on a nation. a sneak attack is just a preemptive strike.
I don't know who said this but "it is better to catch your opponent off guard and open, then to attack while he is aware and prepared."
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I think "Glide Bombing in a B-17" would be a more accurate description.
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Or diving to a lower alt to level bomb
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I don't know who said this but "it is better to catch your opponent off guard and open, then to attack while he is aware and prepared."
You see how much good this did for the Germans and Japanese in WWII. Sucker-punching someone takes a lot of subsequent diplomatic options off the table.
- oldman
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"Dive bombing" when used in a story like this is an extremely subjective term. As others have mentioned, there are no details on dive angle or speeds but also, there is no mention at all of the most important part and that's training. Hitting a target while dive bombing, at night, over black water, with flickering light from flares, in a four-engined bomber with no dive brakes would be no mean feat and to do so without ever having trained for it and with no suitable bombsight impossible. This isn't even to mention the problem of the bomb bay. Even dive bombers with an externally mounted bomb had problems with the bomb hitting their props when released, that's why many of dive bombers had bomb yokes to swing them out and away from the plane but the B-17 had the bombs inside. A release at a true dive bombing angle would likely result in them hitting the front of the bomb bay.
Another interesting clue to this is the fact that they dropped on two separate targets, another highly unlikely thing to attempt in your first ever dive bombing attempt (or any dive bombing attack for that matter). You just don't have time to pick different targets and maneuver the plane between drops, you're more concerned about getting your bombs off and pulling out without smacking the water. Of course, these two ships could have been moored together but the general idea that they dropped on two separate ships is far more indicative of a shallow "glide bombing" tactic or even a low altitude level attack.
Overall, I strongly suspect Trukk's comment is correct, this is far more likely to be a glide bombing attack at a very much lower angle of something like 10 or 20 degrees at most rather than a true dive bombing attack at a 70 degrees.
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Overall, I strongly suspect Trukk's comment is correct, this is far more likely to be a glide bombing attack at a very much lower angle of something like 10 or 20 degrees at most rather than a true dive bombing attack at a 70 degrees.
At 70 degrees the bombs will not clear the door of the bomb bay.
There is also a great risk of getting the bombs spinning out of control in the transition from 0 to 300 mph wind in a few feet. The bombs rely on gravity to pull them out of the bay. At 70 degrees the gravity in the correct direction, i.e. out of the bay, is only about 35% of the drop acceleration in level flight. The bomb will spend a longer time in the turbulent and strong wind sheers regions near the exit of the bay.
i don't believe Israel ever declared war on her Arab neighbors in the 60s when she attacked them. hmm. then again they wont admit they were attacked either.
it does not matter if you declare war on a nation. a sneak attack is just a preemptive strike.
I don't know who said this but "it is better to catch your opponent off guard and open, then to attack while he is aware and prepared."
Consider the first bomb to hit the ground a "deceleration of war". Deceleration of war lost its meaning when wars stopped being a personal matter between kings and other royalties. The only decelerations made in the modern times are when a country enters a war which is already in progress - like the US in WWII. If the Japs had not foolishly decided to awaken the sleeping giant by kicking it in the balls, I am not sure that the US would have joined before the result was already decided, or at all.
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I'd have to think that anyone who compares the way the Japanese did business to what the US does now isn't
much of a historian. They screwed the pooch when they failed to deliver their diplomatic message before the attack
commenced. You can't say that Saddam didn't get a fair warning. You might be able to claim that Panama and
Grenada didn't though.
are you familiar with the old saying the victor writes the history books?
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Maybe dive bombing heavy bombers in game are based on reality after all.
Read the rest of the story, "Dive Bombing a B-17" here (http://www.dba-oracle.com/dive_bombing_b_17.htm).
ack-ack
I can probably find, if i was willing to do, many cases were in ww2 planes ho'd others. hell there's lots ww2 aces that did nothing but pick and run. formation of hundreds of allied bombers along with fighters, how is that for a horde. didnt germany killed most of polands airforce in the ground? vulcher's dream. hell the stuka fighters did nothing but bomb**** as many gv's as they could. lots of cases of fighters ramming fighters/bombers. fighters diving on a field and crash diving their bombs. and yes hundreds of pilots with no more than a few hours of training being sent into combat with no skills whatsoever, how is that for a dweeb. and of course who can forget the pony diving for the deck and run back home when over flown.
and yet these things are frown upon in ah.
semp
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I can probably find, if i was willing to do, many cases were in ww2 planes ho'd others. hell there's lots ww2 aces that did nothing but pick and run. formation of hundreds of allied bombers along with fighters, how is that for a horde. didnt germany killed most of polands airforce in the ground? vulcher's dream. hell the stuka fighters did nothing but bomb**** as many gv's as they could. lots of cases of fighters ramming fighters/bombers. fighters diving on a field and crash diving their bombs. and yes hundreds of pilots with no more than a few hours of training being sent into combat with no skills whatsoever, how is that for a dweeb. and of course who can forget the pony diving for the deck and run back home when over flown.
and yet these things are frown upon in ah.
semp
Cause no one is dying and the risk is hardly comparable.
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Cause no one is dying and the risk is hardly comparable.
so you are saying it was rare out of the ordinary just like dive bombing in b17's was. I am pretty sure the b17's couldnt bomb while heading straight down.
semp
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so you are saying it was rare out of the ordinary just like dive bombing in b17's was. I am pretty sure the b17's couldnt bomb while heading straight down.
No. He's saying that just because they did it in WWII doesn't mean it shouldn't be "frown upon" in an online game. The goals and risks here are so grossly different from those in a real war that the comparison you're making is false. In real war you die if you lose, so that conduct which would be unsportsmanlike in a game becomes life-saving in the real world.
- oldman
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No. He's saying that just because they did it in WWII doesn't mean it shouldn't be "frown upon" in an online game. The goals and risks here are so grossly different from those in a real war that the comparison you're making is false. In real war you die if you lose, so that conduct which would be unsportsmanlike in a game becomes life-saving in the real world.
- oldman
the diving that happened in ww2 is not even close to how dive bombing in buffs is done in ah. the bombs couldnt fall out of the airplane at the steep angle that is done in ah. hell you can even have bombs fall out while flying upside down. would love to see an account of that happening in ww2.
semp
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i don't believe Israel ever declared war on her Arab neighbors in the 60s when she attacked them. hmm. then again they wont admit they were attacked either.
Israel didn't have a peace agreement with Egypt, Syria or Jordan when the 1967 war began. Their was a ceasefire agreement, that was imposed on them by UN resolution 338 (IIRC), but there was no formal armistice. In short, their war of independence was never resolved. The same situation existed when Egypt and Syria initiated the attack on Israel during Yom Kippur in 1973. These nations were in continuous state of conflict with Israel from 1948, until Egypt (1979) and Jordan (formally in 1994) signed peace treaties with Israel. Syria never did....
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Israel didn't have a peace agreement with Egypt, Syria or Jordan when the 1967 war began. Their was a ceasefire agreement, that was imposed on them by UN resolution 338 (IIRC), but there was no formal armistice. In short, their war of independence was never resolved.
Which is the same thing that happened in Iraq. The 1991 Gulf War did not end in a peace treaty, just a cease-fire, and we continued to have periodic hostilities over the years until OIF ended any pretense to a cease-fire. Also, an armistice is not a peace treaty, it's just a cease-fire signed by both sides. We're technically still in a state of war with North Korea for instance, just not conducting active hostilities.