Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: lulu on February 04, 2012, 04:46:09 AM
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I'm looking for an audio editor program to build some engine sound.
I know 'audacity' and 'free sound editor'.
From my info about how to make those sound
I need something that is able to play sounds tracks and record they: SIMULTANEOUSLY and INDIPENDENTLY between their in TIME
Any suggestions?
TY
:salute
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Sorry, I didn't quite understand what you meant by
SIMULTANEOUSLY and INDIPENDENTLY between their in TIME
, but I've been using Audacity for creating engine sounds.
This is my Brewster sound (http://www.telemail.fi/petrin.atk-apu/Eng.wav), which is based on a youtube clip of a T28Trojan and mixed with the sounds of a circular saw and jackhammer, slowed it down to simulate the lower rpm and added some beef into the lower frequences to compensate the loss of basses of the camera mic. There are no more flyable Brewsters left, so I took the closest engine I could find, calculated the rpm difference and added the extra sounds based on pilot interviews. By zooming in and searching the zero points I could make the sound clip continuous. Here's the start sound (http://www.telemail.fi/petrin.atk-apu/engstart.wav) I made for it, using the abovementioned YT clip and adding original hand driven inertia starter sound from another clip, showing the start of a Bf-109E. Again, I zoomed in to find a matching zero point with the running engine sound. Oh, and of course I changed all sounds to mono before mixing anything.
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I used 'audacity' but It does not play sound indipentently.
Good work on Brew's engine.
:salute
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I still don't quite get what you mean by playing independently. Do you mean you want it to play only certain sounds in your mix?
BTW, added the link to the start sound above...
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I still don't quite get what you mean by playing independently. Do you mean you want it to play only certain sounds in your mix?
BTW, added the link to the start sound above...
I think he means multi track editing. Lulu, try LMMS (linux multimedia studio) it has multitrack capabilities for free.
Other than that I know only paid software. I personally use Reason/Record 5 which has awesome mixing, vocoding, sampling, effect etc. capabilities etc. Reason5 is something like 300 bucks in the store.
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Audacity is a multitrack editor ...
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Sony Sound forge 10
Acid Pro 8
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Looking for p51 engine sound, I found that planes engine sound is a 'sum' of:
Propeller(1) + engine(2) + cobustion (3) + wind(4) + something else (?).
Problem:
(1), (2), ..., (4) can have different legnths.
Program like 'audacity' can play simultaneously but not independently from their different lenghts.
Program like 'audacity' start to play all the sound together but the most short sound will end before the rest!
Solution:
I need that (1),(2), ..., (4) run independently from their lenghts in such a manner to obtain a kind of
differential sound loop.
I want to do something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoPLKyIwnW0&feature=related
:salute
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Sound forge does this I often blend 2 or 3 sounds together to create depth.
It can also add length or trim it so all sounds are uniform. hope my info helps
TB
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/soundforge (http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/soundforge)
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i put my self at work.
TY
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You can do that with Audacity, too. If the sound sources are of different sample rate, the first thing is to convert them to be equal and the second is to change their speed back to original. I mean, if you have a sound clip of 44100 Hz and you want to produce a 16000 Hz sound, you can convert your source, but its speed will drop and its length will raise. So you'll have to multiply the speed by 2.75625 to get the original pitch and length (44100/16000=2.75625). The effect "change tempo" will retain the original pitch, whilst "change speed" doesn't. Their values are given as percentage, so adding 100% equivalents of multiplying by 2 and similarly adding -100% means dividing by 2. Very basic maths, as you can see, but it may take a while to get used to. Listen to my Brewster starting sound (http://www.telemail.fi/petrin.atk-apu/engstart.wav): The original inertia starter video was several minutes long, as was the Trojan video. I stopwatched the ingame time for the Brewster start with exhaust puffs and such and worked accordingly with the mix. I added silence to the actual engine sound and tried to find a significant part of the inertia starter into the beginning, fading it in. Remember, the sound wave in the end of the start clip had also to be matched to the one of the actual engine sound, meaning that it had to end in a zero point and coming from below because the engine sound starts by raising from zero.
Another important thing concerning AH sounds is the file size. Having long sound clips with lots of kilobytes and a high sample rate is asking for trouble. Look at the sample rates and lengths in other sound packs and work accordingly.
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Actually its kind of like image editing. You dont want to use small files at the very beginning. A good digital recorder will sample at up to 192 kHz but probably a good rate to maintain originals is between 44 and 96 kHz. Get them cleaned up at the very beginning also or you will introduce things like the washboard effect and bucket reflection that you can hear in just about all of the sound packs. The reason is they are using tracks that have already been resampled too low for more processing. Having a track that is too long is actually a good thing because you can "recenter" the portion you use in order to avoid issues with the other tracks like overlapping peaks which might cause clipping or distortion. Then learn how to get the mix to loop properly which is really nothing more than proper cropping technique.
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WOW! Chalenge, you really gave me a lesson in the English language! In just a few sentences you said all I ever wanted and more. :salute
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Actually its kind of like image editing. You dont want to use small files at the very beginning. A good digital recorder will sample at up to 192 kHz but probably a good rate to maintain originals is between 44 and 96 kHz. Get them cleaned up at the very beginning also or you will introduce things like the washboard effect and bucket reflection that you can hear in just about all of the sound packs. The reason is they are using tracks that have already been resampled too low for more processing. Having a track that is too long is actually a good thing because you can "recenter" the portion you use in order to avoid issues with the other tracks like overlapping peaks which might cause clipping or distortion. Then learn how to get the mix to loop properly which is really nothing more than proper cropping technique.
the planets must be aligned i agree with chalenge
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I dont think any one editor is enough anymore. I used GoldWave for a long time before I bought another program but it doesnt do multitrack either. The effects are in some cases better than more expensive products like SoundForge. Audacity has for a long time had a problem with invert mixes where it introduces terrible noise which is far worse than a noisy crowd. Audition is my primary editor but it also has issues with noise if you open too many files at once or edit over a long period of time. So you end up using them all.
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Chalenge, using multiple editors is just like my picture editing. Good analogy! Sometimes a basic thing like Paint or Windows Sound Recorder (sndrec32.exe) is the best tool, sometimes you need all kind of filters and faders.
Lulu, if you're just trying your wings in sound processing, just wanting to create an engine sound of your own, use the freebies. As stated above, they have lots of functions that aren't evident at first glance.
Another thing is what expectations to set for an engine sound clip to be used in a WW2 flying simulator game. True purists try to find the exact plane type and record its engine sound with highest quality equipment and sample rate. Sadly many planes don't exist any more, or at least their engines can't be started up. In those cases substitutes must be used and modified, the result being more or less imaginary. In the case of a live recording there are multiple aspects to consider: Outside or inside the cockpit, in flight (with real airflow effect) or revving up on the field, plain or damped by a WW2 leather helmet with hearing protection and earphones... Not to mention how to record and reproduce subsonic vibrations.
IMHO the AH cockpit sounds don't have to be of too high quality, because we are wearing our virtual leather helmets with earmuffs and bakelite phones which cut off certain frequencies more than others. The raw cockpit sound was deafening, but I have neither met nor heard about hearing impaired WW2 pilots. After all, they had to be able to hear their radio!
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Bizmann, I have same sample rate but different lenghts. That's the problem. I used these sounds to tray:
http://simviation.com/1/search?submit=1&keywords=p51&x=0&y=0
My first solution was to open 4 'audacity' windows to play them together also if
their lenghts are different, do the corresponding changes and record all with xp 'audio recorder'
or with 'free audio editor'.
'Fre audio editor' seems to have a better resampling function.
:salute
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All right... The first thing is to get all your sound elements into a single Audacity window. Start by File->Open for the first element. Then use File->Import->Audio to add more. If they are in stereo, split them to mono by clicking the triangle at the start of each track. Since they most probably come from a single source, you can then delete the other channel. I couldn't find any sound files through your link, so my instructions are more general.
So, let's say you want to make a mix of several P51 sounds to be used in AH. Import, split and delete until you have a bunch of mono tracks at hand. You can listen to them all at the same time or mute one or more of them even while listening. If you want tracks start at different times, use Tracks->Align Tracks->Align with Cursor to change the starting point of each track. Don't bother about different lengths because 10 seconds is all you'd need.
When you have your selection ready, the Effect menu is what you'd mostly need. Use Amplify to boost or diminish desired channels. Ctrl-z (undo) is your best friend! When you're happy with the result, choose all tracks and use Amplify again with a negative value to reduce the overall sound level. The tracks add up when mixed and we don't want any distortion or clipping, do we... Then go to File->Export and save it as a wav file which will be the raw material for your sound clip. You can import the clip you just created to see if the curve fits nicely into the track window. Then save and close your project.
Now open the wav file you've just created. Listen through it and look at the time line to find the best sounding part. Select that part with your mouse, adding some extra at both ends and copy it (Edit->Copy or Ctrl-C). In the Tracks menu choose Add New->Audio Track and paste your clip there. Select that clip. Use the Zoom button to magnify the sound curve until you clearly can see the ups and downs, preferably as a continuing pattern. Select about 10 seconds starting and ending at a point where the curve passes the zero line, then Edit->Find Zero Crossings (keyboard z). Now your selection should start and end at a zero crossing. Take a closer look (zoom in): Would the curve make a perfect loop? If the curve starts rising from the start, it should end by rising from the negative bottom to zero. You can move the endpoints of your selection with your mouse and redo the zero crossing search until you've found a loopable pattern. When you've found it, copy-paste it to a new audio track. Transport->Loop Play will tell you how it would sound in AH. If you can't hear where the loop restarts, you've succeeded.
Now is the time to fine tune your clip. If you want to boost lower frequencies or add echoes or other gimmicks, do it now. Notice that many effects add volume, so keep an eye on the sound curve. Reduce the volume if necessary. After you've finished, use Effect->Normalize to amplify your sound right below clipping/distortion. File->Export your work as a Wav file with the correct plane name and place it into your Hitech Creations\Aces High\Sounds folder.
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The 'complete guide to the galaxy' ! TY
But look at this
1st sound (prop) ---------- length 10 sec 22 kHz
2sd sound (rpm) --------------- lenght 15 sec 22 kHz
If I mix they then I have a 'hole' of 5 sec in prop sound.
This is why I need a program that is able to play they together but indpendently from their lenghts.
:salute
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You're talking about a program that could loop the two files independently, but actually you don't need such. There's two alternative methods to do the mix:
1) - Position the prop and rpm sounds on separate tracks in a way their mix appeals you the most.
- Delete the rest of the rpm sound.
- Set their volumes to your likes as I described earlier
- Export the mix
- Find zero crossings and make a loopable clip
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2) - If you are using ready-made game sound clips, they probably are loopable and you can duplicate them as many times as you want to. If not, continue...
- Look for zero crossings and wave pattern in the prop track.
- Copy a selection you have found
- Paste the selection right after the end of the selection mentioned
- Repeat if necessary
- Adjust the volumes, export and make loopable as above
Again, you'd only need a few seconds of loopable sound. The minimum would be the time in which every cylinder has done its cycle. How long does it take for a V12 to do it at 3000 rpm? Calculate yourself! In-flight sound clips are really that easy.
Starting and stopping sounds are a bit trickier, because a) starting takes a certain amount of time as does stopping and b) you certainly would like the engine cough in sync with the smoke puffs.
In my Brewster starting sound I used a few seconds of wartime footage to get the hand driven inertia wheel whine of a 109 and an even shorter fraction of the startup coughing of a Trojan. Both of the videos were several minutes long, so I just took the parts that fitted best. The first 5 seconds are pure Messerschmitt, the rest of total 9 seconds is a mixture of Me and Trojan. I used Total Recorder to capture the sound of the videos, the demo version allows to record 30 seconds at a time, which is plenty for this kind of use.
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"Again, you'd only need a few seconds of loopable sound. The minimum would be the time in which every cylinder has done its cycle. How long does it take for a V12 to do it at 3000 rpm? Calculate yourself! In-flight sound clips are really that easy."
I supposed that the file was just so because the file lenght are not too big - about 100 kB.
Do You know how AH changes engine sound when we use WEP?
Does It change the speed of the sound a bit?
:salute
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Huge sound files will only cause trouble. A big single engine sound will work until there are more sounds around. Just think: You have a 1000 kb engine sound and you dive into a CV fight, your guns blazing 4x500 kb gunshot sounds + 2x300 kb for machine guns, a 500 kb stress sound, 400 kb wind and the CV shooting back with gazillion cannons of different sizes. All of the sudden your system has to deal with a severalfold amount of data, possibly over its limits. The smaller sound files you have the more different sounds you can use simultaneously. Same goes for bit depth. Put in a nutshell, your goal is to maximize the sound quality while minimizing file size. Look at the specs of popular AH sound packs in each file for reference. BTW my first Brew eng sound was about 10 seconds long and 500 kb, the final version 3.5 sec and 150 kb. Just experimented with a 16 kb/0.37 sec fraction of the original 10 sec clip. It was loopable but lacked depth. A longer clip may also include variations caused by turbulence and such.
I don't know the code but it looks like AH changes the speed of the sound according to throttle movements, from idle to WEP. Both the tempo and pitch are affected. The actual sound clip seems to work both idle and WEPped if it's recorded at full/travel speed.
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I did not look for the code lol
Just this:
"AH changes the speed of the sound according to throttle movements"
I agree with sound file size etc.
I did one of about 50k. It seems to work well but I will try something more short.
TY
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Nice you got that working. :) :salute