Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sonicblu on February 04, 2012, 04:36:03 PM
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Are there any forums out there you guys visit that I can ask questions on.
I'm taking online ground school, from local college and it seems to be lacking the cross over between knowledge and how it is applied.
Example. Weight and balance. course tells me what the graphs are and what they are used for but not how to use them.
I just spent hrs in the FAA airman knowledge test guide to figure the stuff out. ( and believe it or not it was a big help to go to utube and search how to use crosswind component graph. )
It sucks not having and instructor in class I can ask question as they come up.
Any help would be appreciated. ( yes I thought about dropping online class and driving 45 minutes each way to go to real class )
What would really help is something with video explanation or pictures.
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none that i know of, but im sure there are some out there. Prune, might have a training section, but im not sure.
You can always ask here though. There are plenty of us with the licenses.
While it might be a 45min drive, i think it would be well worth it. I personally dont get how its even legal for these online ground schools to exist.
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Are they talking about stuff like this?
(http://www.edinburghflyingclub.co.uk/memberResources/G-BMCI_graph.gif)
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I always remembered it as WAM! (Because if you dont do your W&B that is the sound your airplane will make when it kisses the ground)
Weight+Arm=Moment.
As you can see on the top part of the graph you have different stations with lines. Figure out how much everything weighs. Say you and your instructor combined weigh 250 pounds, so your moment is 8,500 for the front. You have 30 gallons (180 pounds) of gas and nothing in the baggage compartment or back seat, so your moment is 7,500 for the gas. Say empty moment on the airplane is 52,910, So you should get 68,910. Now look at your moment envelope down on the bottom and find where you are (use 1450 as your empty weight in this case) 1,880 pounds and essentially 69k on the moment.
You should be in the upper middle of the utility category
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also you can find the stations and do it without a loading graph if you can print out the Type Certificate Data Sheet for your airplane - it has the W&B stations listed. If you bring it with you on your checkride the examiner will be very impressed
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also you can find the stations and do it without a loading graph if you can print out the Type Certificate Data Sheet for your airplane - it has the W&B stations listed. If you bring it with you on your checkride the examiner will be very impressed
That's what I did when hauling jumpers. Figured out the "station" for each jumper and figured W&B using that data. More precise.
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I assume this is for a private pilot license?? Get a Gleim book or two. they really helped me. They will explain how to use the graphs. Weight and balance gave me some problems in the begining but eventually you'll get the hang of it.
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Example. Weight and balance. course tells me what the graphs are and what they are used for but not how to use them.
I'm sure we'll be able to explain you how to use those graphs but the problem is that different aircraft manufacturers use different types of graphs for the W&B. Scan or take a (good) picture of the graph from the POH and post is here.
I'll be able to help you out as soon as I know exactly what your looking at.
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rec.aviation.student
http://forums.propilotworld.com/ ($10/yr) Mostly geared toward job hunting. Has one forum dedicated to flight training.
http://www.ch2a.ca/nav/ (will come in handy later in your training)
Used to like the Gleim stuff. But Jeppesen and King Schools have done a better job keeping up with the computer aided training side of things.
edit... if you're doing online aviation college classes I highly recommend UVU.edu
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PPW requires a commercial or higher certificate as a prerequisite to join so that probably won't help for your private pilot questions.
I went to UVSC/UVU and it served the purpose anyway. Early in in it's program (2003 ish) it was pretty bare but I hear it's come a long way.
Doing a private ground school on your own has to be a challenge. I'd recommend especially for your early training to work with an instructor in a proper ground school because this early training is laying the groud work for your subsequent training. It can be very difficult (effect of primacy) to change this foundation later on in your training if you don't correct your own mistakes which you may not even know you're making. I personally like the idea of a group setting ground school so you can mix up personalities and more questions get asked so as a whole the group actually comes out better prepared.
I think AOPA has a flight training forum but like anything else take what you read in the Internet with a grain of salt.
Good luck and have fun :)
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I'm sure we'll be able to explain you how to use those graphs but the problem is that different aircraft manufacturers use different types of graphs for the W&B. Scan or take a (good) picture of the graph from the POH and post is here.
I'll be able to help you out as soon as I know exactly what your looking at.
I am pretty sure I have the weights and balance figured out. I am using the graph from Jeppsons FAA airmans knowledge test.
(fig. 33, 34, 35) looks just like what Tupac posted.
I followed examples until I understood it. Its hard as hell to get the moments precise when using a chart unless there is a trick I don't know.
Calculate the moment of the airplane and determine which category is applicable.A. 79.2 utility category B. 80.8 utility category C. 81.2 normal category.
pilot and passenger weight 310 follow line to right until it intersects with station line for pilot and front passenger. follow line down to load and moment/1000 pound-inches. ok but it is 11.6 how can you tell that from the chart the line is some where in the middle of 11 and 12. a 11.6 is a guess at best . I guessed 11.5. by the time I added up all my moments and divided by weight to find arm. I got the wrong answer. Because the test question is B which is right in the corner of the utility category envelope.
I thought I was doing something wrong. It just wasn't accurate enough. I finally got it by multiplying the weight times arm = moment.
My thoughts are chart is useful for quick calculation but not precise, but if you have table that list the arm for front seats then a calculator is much faster and precise.
Let me know what you guys think and what you found in the real world.
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What is the difference between the utility category and the normal category.
How would it apply in real life.
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What is the difference between the utility category and the normal category.
How would it apply in real life.
The utility category has a higher G limit and in some airplanes allow you to do spins. It depends on the airframe, when you start training look in the Pilots Operations Handbook (POH) or Airplane Flight Manual (AFM)of the plane you will be flying. It will tell you what you can and cant do in the different W&B categories.
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I would recommend joining this forum http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/
Big resource, but just like Golfer said take everything posted with a grain of salt. Plus its not quite as inflammatory as the AOPA board.
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Thanks
I was having problem with the way it is worded. I am learning in the Piper Cherokee Warrior 11.
It says * Utility Category Operation - No baggage or aft passengers allowed.
So I was doing calculations and with passengers and bags and no fuel I was in utility category. The only way to get to normal was to add fuel. I knew I just didn't understand it. Just didn't know how. So I googled it.
Now it makes sense. utility is not separate from normal ( just a part of it ) So if I want to do certain manuevers that only fall under utility Category I can't unless there is no baggage or passengers in rear seats. But it is all normal class class.
The wording on the chart is misleading. :bhead :bhead :bhead
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I always remembered it as WAM! (Because if you dont do your W&B that is the sound your airplane will make when it kisses the ground)
Weight+Arm=Moment.
As you can see on the top part of the graph you have different stations with lines. Figure out how much everything weighs. Say you and your instructor combined weigh 250 pounds, so your moment is 8,500 for the front. You have 30 gallons (180 pounds) of gas and nothing in the baggage compartment or back seat, so your moment is 7,500 for the gas. Say empty moment on the airplane is 52,910, So you should get 68,910. Now look at your moment envelope down on the bottom and find where you are (use 1450 as your empty weight in this case) 1,880 pounds and essentially 69k on the moment.
You should be in the upper middle of the utility category
Any chance you could describe this more in detail? I am having trouble trying to wrap my pitiful brain around it. :uhoh
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Any chance you could describe this more in detail? I am having trouble trying to wrap my pitiful brain around it. :uhoh
Are you looking at the graph in conjunction with it?
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Possibly, and maybe a real world example...I'm not really sure, I understand what the purpose is, but I cant get seem to get my brain to "understand it"
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Possibly, and maybe a real world example...I'm not really sure, I understand what the purpose is, but I cant get seem to get my brain to "understand it"
I'll see if I can post a more detailed explanation of what a W&B is when I get home. I'm out running errands right now
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Let me know what you guys think and what you found in the real world.
What is the difference between the utility category and the normal category.
How would it apply in real life.
Looks like you pretty much got it. I do recommend you use the weight x arm to get the moment as it is more accurate and I think the method is easier in general. After I get the the final numbers I match them to the center of gravity chart (the 2nd one that Tupac posted) and make sure that it all works out. Right now I got tired of doing all the math myself and just do it on the (electronic) E6B. However I recommend you do everything manually until your 100% sure that you understand the way it works and how to do it. Another thing you can do (later on) is make a .xls file that will do all the calculating for you.
I don't remember the exact regs but if the aircraft is in utility category your allowed to practice spins. See by calculating W&B you get your CG (center of gravity), that is the point around witch your aircraft will move.
Here is the difference between having a forward CG and an aft CG:
| Forward | Aft |
| Longer T/O roll | Shorter T/O roll |
| Longer Landing distance | Shorter Landing distance |
| Harder to rotate & flare | Easier to rotate & flare |
| Slower cruise TAS | Higher cruise TAS |
| Higher fuel burn rate | Lower fuel burn rate |
| More stable | Less stable |
| Easier to stall | Harder to stall |
| Easier to recover | Harder to recover |
| Less maneuverable | More maneuverable |
MK-84, I think this explanation should help you out as well.