Aces High Bulletin Board

Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Sled on February 09, 2012, 12:19:23 AM

Title: No enemy icons?
Post by: Sled on February 09, 2012, 12:19:23 AM
I did a quick search, and it looks like the last time this was thought about was in early 2010.

I know this is a polarizing subject, but I think it is one worth trying, even if just one frame.

We now have the ability to change icons to anything we want, and should experiment with those settings in FSO.


In any case I think at least one frame with no enemy icons, or maybe set enemy icon to less than 600 yards, is worth a try.

I would think friendly icons around 2-3K would be a good start as well.

thoughts?
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: ImADot on February 09, 2012, 08:37:16 AM
The AvA is currently running 1.5k icons for both sides. It's tough to tell friend from foe (even with radar dots) when there's a fight going on outside of icon range. Even 1.5k doesn't give a lot of time to react once you've been able to see who that dot is. IMO, no icons or shorter than current FSO 3k icons would drive players away en masse. Having different ranges for friendly and enemy icons would not be a good compromise either.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: VonMessa on February 09, 2012, 08:52:27 AM
It would be nice if there could be icons without plane-type tags until < 1.5k, and I don't mean like now where you can see the make  of the plane but not the model until closer.  I'm thinking more ofjust a distance indicator in red.  Enough to tell friend from foe, but not enough to know what it is until close enough.  Even in a real dogfight (which the age-old arguments have proven are monitors are not capable of reproducing accurately) I'm sure that most foes airplane type had to be at least 2k or closer to positively ID them.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Krusty on February 09, 2012, 09:21:33 AM
The reality is in WW2 when you spotted the planes you were attacking, you had time to react, and to engage the enemies. In this game, you do not. Partly because of the way it renders dots, partly because of many other things with how the eye sees vs how the game renders...


End result is turning icons off or "down" seriously hinders both sides before-flight-manuvers, and it dictates that the side with the best turning, slowest-stalling, plane wins. It throws ALL historical tales of how FW190s trounced SpitVs out the window. It disregards BnZ and energy fighting. All it is, is HIDING from a fight, PICKING a cheap and easy target that in real life would have seen you.


Look, there's enough wrong with FSO as it is. Don't go making it worse. Don't buy the AvA propogands. It's not better. It's not a higher skill bracket. It's cheap and changes every gameplay dynamic in a completely unhistoric way.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Krusty on February 09, 2012, 09:26:41 AM
Even in a real dogfight I'm sure that most foes airplane type had to be at least 2k or closer to positively ID them.

Not so... You realize that 2K is barely over 1 mile away? Most planes are identifiable 5x that range. In a REAL dogfight pilots looked out in the distance at the fight BEFORE they joined in, and could read the tail codes on the planes and knew WHICH pilots and which flights were engaged, and against what.


Now, I'm not saying they could pinpoint a 109G6 from a 109G2, per se... But a Me109 (F and later models) is very distinctive. As is a jug. As is a Fw.

There are plenty of cases of mis-identifying planes in WW2, but please don't confuse lack of eyesight with lack of education on what the enemy planes actually LOOKED LIKE. Most WW2 pilots would love the 60 years of hindsight and documented materials showing them what their adversaries went into combat with, like we have. That's a failing in WW2 intelligence more than it is a limitation on human vision.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Stampf on February 09, 2012, 10:23:15 AM
I did a quick search, and it looks like the last time this was thought about was in early 2010.

I know this is a polarizing subject, but I think it is one worth trying, even if just one frame.

We now have the ability to change icons to anything we want, and should experiment with those settings in FSO.


In any case I think at least one frame with no enemy icons, or maybe set enemy icon to less than 600 yards, is worth a try.

I would think friendly icons around 2-3K would be a good start as well.

thoughts?

Leave the icons the way they are is my thought.

Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Squire on February 09, 2012, 10:32:12 AM
FSO icon standard will remain 3k/3k. Thats for a blend of playability and historic reasons. What some other event or arena does or doesn't do is of no concern to us here. 

Past that if you want to debate the various schools of thought on the difficulties of spotting a/c in WW2 feel free.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: ELD66 on February 09, 2012, 12:04:15 PM
Leave the icons the way they are is my thought.



 I agree, Again we are back to the same thing as with the time difference. We want MA players to join FSO imho this would drive them away, FSO is already challenging to the novice AH2 player. The 3k icons are good, I again refer to my statement from the Time difference discussions, "If it isn't broken don't fix it."
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Sled on February 09, 2012, 12:27:57 PM
You guys do realize , I was just suggesting we try it one time?

not an across the board permanent change to FSO.

But obviously it's not a popular idea.

Nice to see not much on this BB has changed.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: VonMessa on February 09, 2012, 12:29:54 PM
You guys do realize , I was just suggesting we try it one time?

not an across the board permanent change to FSO.

But obviously it's not a popular idea.

Nice to see not much on this BB has changed.

I still love you sled,  just don't think that means you can shag my sister, though  :D
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: GNucks on February 09, 2012, 12:32:39 PM
I think 3K is just right. You can see the bogie dot from really far away, and in real life you might have been able to ID it, but in FSO you can usually tell whether that swarm of dots in the distance is friend or foe. If they're closing fast they're probably enemy, if they're flying parallel they could be friendly, if they're all zipping around and turning tight you've got a mix of the two. I think we have it just far enough so you have to actually LOOK, rather than twirl your hat switch around and stop when you see red.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: ImADot on February 09, 2012, 12:34:02 PM
Nice to see not much on this BB has changed.

Why the dig... (at least that's the way I take it).

You made a suggestion, people have expressed opinions without silly pictures or other lameness...even Krusty's first response was non-combative (until his last paragraph  :D).
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Sled on February 09, 2012, 03:26:38 PM
I still love you sled,  just don't think that means you can shag my sister, though  :D

What's your sister look like? ;)
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Sled on February 09, 2012, 03:27:51 PM
Why the dig... (at least that's the way I take it).

You made a suggestion, people have expressed opinions without silly pictures or other lameness...even Krusty's first response was non-combative (until his last paragraph  :D).

Just seemed a little like "dog pile on the rabbit." for bringing up the idea.

Maybe I am misreading it.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Skull_001 on February 09, 2012, 04:03:03 PM
I think 3K is just right. You can see the bogie dot from really far away, and in real life you might have been able to ID it, but in FSO you can usually tell whether that swarm of dots in the distance is friend or foe. If they're closing fast they're probably enemy, if they're flying parallel they could be friendly, if they're all zipping around and turning tight you've got a mix of the two. I think we have it just far enough so you have to actually LOOK, rather than twirl your hat switch around and stop when you see red.

I'd agree Reb. Specially in the swarm description.
3k seems good, its a fair amount of time to react. It also can depend on monitor resolution beyond that.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Stampf on February 09, 2012, 04:55:56 PM
Just seemed a little like "dog pile on the rabbit." for bringing up the idea.

Maybe I am misreading it.

You are, Sled.

You asked for our thoughts.  I gave you my honest thoughts on the idea.  If the CM team put it in here some time...whatever, I'll still be here, my preference however is the existing set-up, that's all. 
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: j500ss on February 09, 2012, 08:13:00 PM
From a personal standpoint, I have no issue with trying anything once in a while.   Yes, no icons can go way beyond being challenging, but I am not sure that saying it would turn fights into what is suggested it totally true...... Least times when I have flown AvA and short distance icon FSO's.

However, knowing that what seems to be a majority of folks wants nothing to do with it, means that it is probably never going to be a welcome idea.

Now from my perspective, and what I think would make for some great twists in FSO, would be playing with environments.   Rain, heavy low clouds, rolling fog, snow squalls, dust from desert terrains.   Yes, it would definitely affect icons, but it would bring a whole new twist to the realism at the same time.  Not saying use it in every frame, or every setup............ But just once in a while........ I think would be WAY TO MUCH FUN!!   :x


 :salute

JDog   332nd Mongrels
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: APDrone on February 09, 2012, 11:10:39 PM
Sled,

When the ability to set icons off was introduced, there was an event where they had been inadvertently left to 1k after somebody was testing them.

That night, we had an FSO where FW190s magically appeared out of nowhere and decimated our noe mosquitos.  We never had a clue.

That single event destroyed my enthusiasm for FSO and AH.. to which I've never really recovered.  I made an effort to try to tolerate no icons, tried the AvA a little,  but to lose a target 200 feet in front of you on the deck is simply unplayable.

There may be those that like no icons.. to me, I can't play that way.. and won't.





Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Sled on February 10, 2012, 12:24:43 AM
You are, Sled.

You asked for our thoughts.  I gave you my honest thoughts on the idea.  If the CM team put it in here some time...whatever, I'll still be here, my preference however is the existing set-up, that's all. 

Fair enough  :salute
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Sled on February 10, 2012, 12:26:47 AM
Sled,

When the ability to set icons off was introduced, there was an event where they had been inadvertently left to 1k after somebody was testing them.

That night, we had an FSO where FW190s magically appeared out of nowhere and decimated our noe mosquitos.  We never had a clue.

That single event destroyed my enthusiasm for FSO and AH.. to which I've never really recovered.  I made an effort to try to tolerate no icons, tried the AvA a little,  but to lose a target 200 feet in front of you on the deck is simply unplayable.

There may be those that like no icons.. to me, I can't play that way.. and won't.



I can certainly see where if it was done by accident, with no warning, it would be a big problem.

Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Krusty on February 10, 2012, 01:09:40 PM
Sled: Yup! You were misreading it. No dogpiling of you at all!

Re: APDrone: There used to be the plane bug, too, where if there were more than N planes in an area, N+ wouldn't have icons. You'd get magic dots that could see you and dive and attack and you wouldn't get icon until d800 when the plane was already firing and some other plane left the visible area, "freeing up" an icon slot. Had a Midway setup or something similar where that happened several times.

That limit has been upped and the problem overall fixed but it's a horrible effect on actual combat experience.


Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Viper61 on February 10, 2012, 08:31:12 PM
Keep the ICON's.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Squire on February 11, 2012, 12:49:26 AM
No problem SLED I just wanted to quash any rumuours about a change in the settings being considered. Its a very touchy subject within FSO (as im sure you have seen) and I don't want any misunderstandings. Its impossible to come to a consensus that everybody would agree too and so we go with the tried and true.  :salute
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: captain1ma on February 13, 2012, 04:07:51 PM
the AVA has been adjusting the distances with icons for quite awhile. my personal favorite is 2.4k friendly minimum and 0 k enemy. you'll get the usual suspects to chime in as to why it will or wont work, and the usual threats to quit and of course the every popular bashings, but when it all comes down to it, "No enemy icons" is fun and does work.

its all about preference. some prefer icons on, some don't. if you would like to see whine threads, look up some of the ones i started in the AVA forum. you'll notice that the loudest whiners are from people that hardly ever fly in there in the first place. and of course they'll say that's why they don't fly in the AVA, but again its about preference. everyone has it. 

i personally like having "no icons", but not everyone does. i think once in awhile would be fun in the FSO, but you'll get way to many people complaining about it to make it worth while. my suggestion, call skuzzy, have him lock this thread, and keep on coming up with great ideas, this one will make you crazy if you listen to everyone.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Krusty on February 15, 2012, 08:52:08 AM
its all about preference.

Balderdash.

It's only about preference in as much as you can ALSO prefer to empty your guns on the runway and dogfight with no ammo. It's only about preference in as much as you could tape paper over the left half of your monitor when flying.

You can prefer to do any number of dumb-arse things. Doesn't make them fun to anybody but you.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: kansas2 on February 15, 2012, 04:13:18 PM
You can prefer to do any number of dumb-arse things.

Which is usually your preference since most of your postings are negative.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Krusty on February 17, 2012, 02:06:26 AM
Please read the rules before you post. You seem to ignore them.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: Shamus on February 17, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
Kansas2, please don't call Krusty negative, its against the rules.

shamus
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: captain1ma on February 17, 2012, 10:41:36 AM
its not that krusty is negative, its just his "preference" to look at things with the glass half empty.
Title: Re: No enemy icons?
Post by: DrBone1 on February 17, 2012, 11:43:11 AM
He is not worried about his post count he actually has many opinions!  :O   :D