Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: crowbaby on March 07, 2012, 05:09:10 AM
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Been offline about a year due to computer failure :mad: Thinking of getting my hand in again by doing some skins for the 110. Krusty's done a handful of good skins for it, but other than that it hasn't seen much love. I've had a look at the old mapping on it and it's not too terrible:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/Untitled-1.jpg)
There's some stretching, but other than on the canopy top, engine housings and the spine, it's mostly in places that aren't too important, like the gear bay doors, etc. The repeats are annoying, like the whole cockpit area repeats left and right, which will be a pain for geschwader emblems, or even just being accurate with panels lines. All understandable given that this was done as a 256x256 skin originally (I remember having a go at skinning it ten years ago!). Over all, though, there are huge expanses of pixels to play with at 1024 resolution and it should be possible to make a pretty good looking skin.
It'll take me a while just to get the layout ad panel lines done, but again, if anyone has any particular aircraft they want skinned, let me know. I'll be doing the C-4 first, so I guess it's mostly scenario skins.
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Best of luck :aok
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Most scenarios don't use the 110C much. Just BOB if I recall. Because of this I would skin what you love. Skin what you want to see and think others would enjoy, rather than trying to fill in "holes" or whatnot.
Note that if you do a 110C the 110G is very similar: about 90% the same layout. So if you do the one you have a handy template to move to the other.
The problem is the selections. There aren't too many 110G dayfighter schemes. And, variations in mottling aside, there's only a handful of 110C patterns as well. There are some that haven't been skinned yet, though I would say skinning the 110s is a labor of love rather than fun. If you like to get into skinning I might suggest a more common plane with more options and a more recent bitmap layout.
Glad you're trying it again! :aok Good luck!
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One thing, the 110 is an aging model i hope it will be updated soon... Might be useful to consult with HTC, not to make a beautiful skin then throw it out after a couple monts with the new 3D model arrives
:salute
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Thanks guys.
I chose this rather than a more common aircaft cos there are still some slots free and I wanted to get back into practice on something that's overlooked. I know it may get a new model soon, but there was the same worry when i worked on the Ju88 and it's not been updated yet. Plus I just like the 110 - I really get what Krusty says about any skinning being a labour of love - we may never even get to see them in game.
For schemes, I'm just gathering photos at the moment. I thought I might do an early war sceme before the mottling was introduced, then maybe a winter camo overpaint, or have a crack at ZG1 with the wasp nose, I've never tried nose art before. I'd like to go on to do the G as well, so I'm keeping panel lines organised so that I can make all the changes. I'm actually trying to be organised and patient in my workflow for once, rather than hopping all over the place like I usually do.
I used the existing scheme to get a rough idea of the layout of various parts, then the skinviewer to line out exactly where each is on the template.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/Untitled-12edit.jpg)
Then I use that as a guide to try and fit some schematics inside, took a fair bit of squashing, stretching and distorting after this pic. Also, most of the schemes in books, etc are pretty rubbish. I don't know whether it's more frustrating when they disagree with each other, or when they've all copied the same mistake.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/Untitled-9edit.jpg)
Then I create the panel lines as paths, with a separate set for each element/type. I load these into the viewer again and compare them to photos. Which is where it becomes an art reconciling reality with a model. Also, some things look okay from one angle:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/Untitled-22edit.jpg)
but then when you see them at another, the lack of polygons can turn a straight line into an angle - I had to pull this curve back a couple of pixels from the nose to get rid of the distortion. And the purple line under the ammo doors in the pic above looks straight and horizontal in a side view, still not sure how much to bend that.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/Untitled-24edit.jpg)
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If you need I can get you a collection of skins for the 110G/C I have quite a few books on the 110G including skinning art and details.
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Most potential skin ideas won't fit on the 110C. Keep in mind it has the weaker engines and the lesser firepower. You start getting past the D model and it really fits the in-game G better in most cases (barring the 30mm, which not even all G-models had).
I had a few ideas I wanted to do eventually but they fell to the side as I dragged on with existing skin projects.
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Would the 110D fit the 110C? Looks like the same engine housing.
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/110trops.png)
Bf 110Ds of II/ZG 26
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D was pretty similar, yes.
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Would the 110D fit the 110C? Looks like the same engine housing.
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/110trops.png)
Bf 110Ds of II/ZG 26
That's a sweet picture! :aok
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It is classic. That's why I skinned it.
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/ahskins/images/screenshots/110c4_3.jpg)
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The photo looks like it is 3UK8 and the skin looks like 3UKB? Or am I seeing things. (BTW that happens to be the 110C skin I use :cheers:)
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What you're seeing is pigment bleed-out on the blacks... It's making them "glow" so to speak and blurring their boundaries. It's really a B. I did the research way back when I did the skin. The last one was always a letter. Like 3U+KT, etc.
(going from memory, don't have the research in front of me)
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What you're seeing is pigment bleed-out on the blacks... It's making them "glow" so to speak and blurring their boundaries. It's really a B. I did the research way back when I did the skin. The last one was always a letter. Like 3U+KT, etc.
(going from memory, don't have the research in front of me)
Rgr, I figured you had done your research on it and it was most likely just me. Maybe a thicker, bolder font on the skin would look more similar? I'm no skinner, and I admire the work you do, just my opinion.
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It is classic. That's why I skinned it.
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/ahskins/images/screenshots/110c4_3.jpg)
I completely forgot it was the same one. :rofl
I hope you redo this one first when the 110 gets updated. (hint, HiTech, hint)
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Thanks guys.
I chose this rather than a more common aircaft cos there are still some slots free and I wanted to get back into practice on something that's overlooked. I know it may get a new model soon, but there was the same worry when i worked on the Ju88 and it's not been updated yet. Plus I just like the 110 - I really get what Krusty says about any skinning being a labour of love - we may never even get to see them in game.
<SNIP>
You do know that HTC has increased the number of skins per plane from 15 to 30, so there are a LOT of slots open.
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Thanks for the offer Butcher - I've got quite a lot of resources, but I'll message you once I've settled on the skins to do and see if you have anything more, if that's okay?
and thanks to The Fugitive; it seems i missed a few things when catching up on the forums! That's big news. I've also just seen the post about bump-mapping as well, which is a complete game changer!
I've looked at some D paintschemes, problem is they tend to either be versions that are tropicalised, or ones with the centre bombrack, and they've all got the plate glass windscreen, quite big differences to the C-5 model we have. By the time you get to E machine pictured in the med, they've got the cooling air intake on the nose as well (the twin MGs seem to be an aircraft mod), the F-trop behind has an air filter on the wing, rounded spinners and a different engine air intake.
I think there will be enough purely C schemes to make it worth while. There were several major changes of official camouflage during 1940 alone, not to mention geschwader level differences. I've also got shots of C models based in Malta, Russia and North Africa which should be good enough to make up skins from.
I'm mostly done on panel lines, just the tail to do, then rivets, other detail, etc. I couldn't resist putting some paint on it just to get an idea how it's shaping up:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/panels.jpg)
obviously that's not actually a paintscheme, just more pleasing than looking at than a white model. It also serves to hide some of the dodgy smoothing on the original polys:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/smoothing.jpg)
The various elements met up better than I thought they would, not too much miss-match in panel lines, bodes well for matching up weathering/smoke/etc across the divides:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/elements.jpg)
Had to chuck it in the game a few times to find the slats. Also thought it was worth checking to see how different it looks to the viewer.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/slats.jpg)
Spotted a panel by the wing radiator that i'd missed. There are precious few reference points in that part of the skin, so I put down a scattering of dots to help me find it in the viewer. Just occasionally it's great having a screen large enough to see a few things at once:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/find.jpg)
Correctly located, doesn't look like much now, but at least I know where it is:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/fix.jpg)
Probably not get anything done now for a few days, but it gets a lot easier from now on in.
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:old: Just to muddy the waters a bit - I believe that the desert scheme 110 pictured is probably actually the same one as 3U+KS from the same series of photos normally dated to 1942. In every print I've seen of that particular shot the black lettering looks overdrawn and the staffel letter is missing. I would also have reckoned on a 2 Staffel, I Gruppe having a red 'K'. Of course, you can never be sure with old photos, so Krusty's interpretation is probably equally valid.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/2.jpg)
same aircraft with wing tanks, it looks as if the yellow theatre markings were extended to the top of the engine nacelle - possibly they were always that way, colour photos aren't great for distinguishing that kind of thing.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/Untitled-1-1.jpg)
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At different times different theater markings could be present. So it's "possible" -- however don't forget these aren't the most well kept planes. They weren't the 109s... They didn't get the same pride and attention, for various reasons no doubt. You find them dirtied and muddied in photos far more than you will find 109s.
So when you look at that B&W photo you notice a bit of a color difference. To that I suggest it's a replacement cowling, or that oil leaking out behind it has darkened the aft portion of the cowling. It's right at the point where the cowling would be removable, and on top of that you can look DOWN and see that there is a solid demarcation line between the upper cowling and where the exhausts are. More than likely that's your yellow "chin" markings.
This would seem to be backed up by your other photo. You can see in the color KS photo above that the same things. The plane above it is cleaner, but KS itself must have had a big cloud of smoke or flames at one point (or an oil leak). However you can see the yellow demarcation line clear enough.
I've got a bit of a practiced eye interpreting WW2 photos at this point. I know a bit about the photography technology at the time (in its infancy) and some of the limitations of B&W and color photos for the day. Sometimes you get colors that don't show up properly (like reds, yellows, sometimes even BLUEs that don't show up at all on B&W), sometimes you get color shift and distortion due to improper development or just poor chemistry at the time, and sometimes you get things like bleedout that makes a B look like a fuzzy 8.
The planes in those photos don't have wraparound yellow. That doesn't mean that others didn't have it, just that these ones didn't, from what I can see.
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It does look wraparound to me in the b&w photo, based on the difference in tone and texture between the engine nacelle and the wing & fuselage. But as you point out, what it looks like isn't the half of it with old photos.
It's also hard to find different views of the same aircraft, ZG26 were getting through them at ferocious rate, and it seem sthi smeant that paintschemes changed just as quickly. In addition to a range of camouflage styles, some had wraparound theatre markings, some had tail markings, some had a wide theatre band on the fuselage, probably some early ones used Regia Aeronautica paint as well. THere might be some consistency in Staffels, I haven't really checked.
I do think the original shot is of 3U+KS though.
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I don't think they were going through them as much as you might think. When theater markings were changed by order from above, units repainted the planes to match the order. The same airframe might carry several sets of markings if the orders kept changing and the airframe survived combat long enough.
Overall IMO most of the paint schemes are very similar. Aside from theater markings most of them follow the same camo, albeit with different side mottling -- since this was hand applied it could be different to some small extent.
Speaking of camo, you no doubt have realized by now the same wing mirrors left and right. Splinter is out the window. I came up with a happy medium I think, that captured the look of it but mirrored well. I would encourage you to figure out one as well because IMO the default doesn't do it much justice. P.S. Same for the stabilizers, and the inner/outer vertical stabs share the same texture, but what can ya do? :frown:
the pattern I came up with:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/ahskins/images/screenshots/110c4_5.jpg)
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As far as I can tell ZG26 were getting through aircraft all right. They suffered more than a dozen operational losses in their first two months in the med, and they're likely to have lost a lot in wear and tear as well, they were flying longer sorties than most theatres in a salty, dusty and sandy environment. On top of this the new DB601N engines were cracking their mounts, and the drop tanks kept leaking. The aircraft with 3U+KS is still in its factory codes and I'm sure I've seen D, E, F and G models used in the med, frequently in mixed flights like this. All happened elsewhere as well, of course, but the attrition rate does seem to have been much higher here.
(http://www.virtualwings.org/bf110/110.jpg)
(probably wasn't clear earlier about colour for the code on your 3U+KB, I meant 2nd Staffel in the group, which should have a red aircraft code, if it were coloured at all. Had to go and re-check this, but as It was III Gruppe in the med, a yellow aircraft code would mean 9 staffel (third one in Gruppe) and a last letter of T. Like this example, where the yellow letter contrasts to the white theatre band (and a typically mixed bag of aircraft).
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/Untitled5.jpg)
Photos indicate that III Gruppe stuck pretty much to the colour codes for their aircraft. The 3U+KB code just doesn't seem to make sense as it would belong to the Stab flight of I Gruppe, who weren't in the med and would have had a blue or green aircraft letter and matching band on the spinner)
As for paint schemes being similar, not sure if you mean in the Mediterranean theatre or generally? I think there's plenty of variety in the med:
Most aircraft stuck with the standard camouflage pattern, so a few old RLM 70/02/65 green schemes , but mostly RLM 74/75/76 grey-greens, with mottling of 02/70/74 on fuselage sides
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/1-Bf-110D-9ZG26-3ULT-WNr-3406-Sicily-1941-01.jpg)
Other aircraft came with the factory applied RLM 79 sand yellow already pictured, but Messerschmidt later raised the demarkation line between the colours on factory painted 109s and 110s (not quite enough here to make a skin from though!)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/Untitled3.jpg)
Then there's RLM 79 with blotches of Olive green 80
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/Untitled2.jpg)
There were also some aircraft with wellenmuster, 80 over 79, possibly cos of the number of flights over water or perhaps desert terrain suited this pattern as well:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/1-Bf-110E-7ZG26-3UZR-01.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/1-Bf-110C-8ZG26-3UXS-02.jpg)
Which is enough variety for me! not to mention the ZG1 Wespes and ZG76 Sharkmouths that also served in the Med.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/1-Bf-110G-5ZG1-S9AN-Italy-1943-01.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/1-Bf-110E-5ZG76-M8AN-Balkans-1941-01.jpg)
I've also seen many profile drawings and skins of 3U+KT in a brown camoflage scheme, is this bobbins? Or does anyone know did this pattern actually exist?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/Untitled4.jpg)
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Had a bit of time to work on this and been adding rivets. Kind of tedious as it's hard to find good references and for the same reason they won't be all that obvious in the finished skin. Still, got to be done. Next up is all the latches and hatches and stuff. Then I can finally do some painting!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/Untitled-37.jpg)
Also, forgot a scheme that was used in the Med - night fighters! It's even a C model
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/1-Bf-110C-1.jpg)
Black camouflage, noseart of owl on the moon, all this cool spoiled by one poseur in shorts and shades.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/flugfarbe/Aces%20High%20-%20Bf110/1-Bf-110C-11.jpg)