Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Stellaris on March 10, 2012, 04:21:41 AM
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For those who don't know me, I'm Paul, callsign Stellar, OpsO for Claimjumpers, though mostly inactive this year in FSO since I'm in the UK and FSO starts at 4AM here. However for our CiC turn Kurt asked me to put together the plan and lead the mission, so I did. This is my first time out as FSO CiC and side planner.
For this frame, 8th USAAF had four assigned objectives, at Bremen, Hannover, Stuttgart and Schweinfurt. Each objective had 3 strategic targets and a base, and our tasks were to get them destroyed and bring all our planes home. The operational area was fairly covered by enemy radar, restricting our options if we wanted an unexpected approach, and the enemy could be expected to mount patrols in the dead zones. This in turn suggested we'd face a running battle into target, unless we could mislead the enemy. The layout also suggested mounting two co-ordinated strikes, one in the north on Bremen and Hannover, one to the south on Stuttgart and Schweinfurt, deploying my fighters to protect the incoming bomber group as a whole, rather than close-escorting them. The fighters would be deployed as an advance guard squadron ahead of the main group, with the other squadrons arranged ahead, in trail, and to left and right of the bomber group. The routing meant that the whole group would overfly two objective areas, though adhering to the requirement that each target in each area be a specific, primary target for a single strike group. This approach also allowed me to unleash an independent fighter squadron as intruders, with the intent of triggering the radar and drawing the enemy out of position.This being my first FSO, I wasn't entirely sure if this degree of co-ordination would be legal (the rules are a little vague for the specific target arrangement and plan here), so I briefed the concept to Shifty, the scenario designer, who said it was good to go and rather clever :) We were, it must be said, still spread very thin and vulnerable over the target areas, but before and after we were tight and well protected. The only other major decision was whether to go in high, low or inbetween, but really the best option was high, as it would make it harder for driven-down fighters to re-engage us. I assigned B24s for the southern strike, as their higher speed would make it possible to make their required ToTs over the longer distance to be covered there, and B17 to the northern strike, which nicely met the aircraft requirements. I never fly bombers in the MA, so I had to run a few missions to get a feel for the times, speeds and target effects on the ground - an education to be sure. UncleKurt gave me tremendous support in flying the photo-recon missions so I could make target assignments at the individual aircraft level. We had no specific mix of P47 and P38 to meet, so I left the choice of ride to the discretion of the fighter squadron commanders.
I then did up a NATO standard operational plan (somewhat abbreviated). I'm a ground forces guy and make no pretense of being up on air-ops planning factors. If you haven't previously worked with military orders format you might find them of interest.
http://paulchafe.com/fso/opavalanche.doc
On the other hand, if you're a military pilot - move along - nothing to see here!
I also did individual target plans for the northern strike, broken down plane by plane, based on Kurt's recce flights - we just ran out of time to do them for the southern group as well. They were quite useful, and can be seen here...
http://paulchafe.com/fso/alphastrikenorthtargets.doc
http://paulchafe.com/fso/bravostrikenorthtargets.doc
The mission itself was straightforward. I controlled the northern strike, and tasked Branch37 of VF-17 to command the overall southern strike, with LCA flying the other bomber squadron. In the north we formed up and flew our routes over the ocean and around the north end of the radar to come down almost due south over our targets. The formation wasn't bad, although my dream of an airshow-tight wingtip-to-wingtip bomber formation didn't materialize. The AK's were our intruder group, coming in to the southwest, and successfully made contact and lured away at least a squadron of enemy fighters. However, inevitably more enemy were waiting over the target (they knew, after all, that we were coming). Contact calls from VMF 101 (our advance guard) came in ahead of us, and I ordered the trail escorts (132nd and Air Raiders) forward to support them. In retrospect, I should have done this early, since once we were running in to target the odds of being bounced from behind were drastically outweighed by the certainty of a contact in front. The left and right wing escorts (49th and 353rd) were tasked to close protection to keep the fighters off us as we dropped. I learned at this point it is impossible to monitor the air situation, man the tail gun and conduct a bomb run all at the same time - especially because, as mentioned, I never fly bombers, so turret gunnery is a black art to me. I lost a drone to a 109, but my bombs were decently on target, and as the reports came back from the rest of the Claimjumpers it seemed we'd had a good run. I gave the order to regroup, and passed navigation control to G3-MF for their attack, just in time to lose my remaining two planes. I hopped back into the battle as a gunner for N1KDog, managing to down a 110, so I guess I can turret gun to some degree. G3MF also had a good run, we regrouped quite well, and exited the battle without further drama. Reports from the southern strike group were also positive, and the early results are on par with Frame 1.
Lessons learned (or at least experienced!) for future commanders
1) Backbriefs. Slipknot of G3-MF gave me an excellent backbrief (ie, a summary of his understanding of my plan, and an outline of the plan he'd done up to cover his part of it. This is standard military practice (and Slippie is an ex-marine) but not (in my limited experience) FSO practice. This was invaluable in co-ordinating our actions, and identified the fact that I'd set up the airbase bomb plan wrong (I targeted the VH and FH incorrectly - did I mention I never do any bombing?). Next time I'll specifically ask for backbriefs and outline plans returned in orders.
2) Voice procedure. I briefed basic callsign use in orders, but thought it was probably expecting too much as most AH pilots aren't trained to use it. However G3 and AK (and maybe others, I wasn't keeping track) did use it, and it really aided clarity. The value of fixed callsigns, and simply opening a communication with the person you're calling and your own callsign is invaluable. Next time I'm going to brief some basic brevity codes as well. I'll also sharpen up my own VP, which was sloppier than my professional pride is comfy with.
3) Organization. The best plan is no good if everyone doesn't know where they fit in it. This is an issue for FSO, as it's difficult to know for sure who is coming until they show up. My own standard is to set up flights of 4 as AH missions, and then assign slot positions (Lead, left wing, right wing and trail for the bombers) based on whether you're first, second, third or fourth on the mission roster. I set up all the bomber flights this way prior to mission start, and this was reflected in the target plans. It seemed to work OK, but I didn't feel warm and fuzzy that all the targets were properly covered, because I had no feedback that everyone understood how it was supposed to work. Backbriefs and an established SOP within our squad (CJs) would solve this - and I think to better target scores, though the mission recording will tell the tale for sure.
I also set up the fighter squadrons, but most of the COs preferred to set up their own, so next time I'll skip this step.
4) Last, I got MANY compliments on the thoroughness of the orders, which is really just about using the NATO standard format to guide my thinking and getting it all in there. This definitely paid dividends in terms of making sure that squadrons were they were supposed to be, when they were supposed to be. Its a bit more effort to set these up, but well worth it.
Last, I'd like to thank all the squads for their support and participation. It was a good frame, well worth the effort, an excellent experience and rare opportunity to lead some 200 aircraft on a mission like this. Any help I can offer anyone looking to do this in future is yours for the asking.
Cheers!
Paul
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Was a pleasure to fly with you and your squad sir <S>...
Was an outstanding set of orders... hats off to you and your team. Given the number of planes flying in such close proximity to each other... I was amazed at how little radio chatter there was, and at how well it all came together.
Very... very well done.
:salute
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Was a pleasure to fly with you and your squad sir <S>...
Was an outstanding set of orders... hats off to you and your team. Given the number of planes flying in such close proximity to each other... I was amazed at how little radio chatter there was, and at how well it all came together.
Very... very well done.
:salute
Ditto what AKP said!
Also, a well written AAR. Seems like we got the full experience this week. Enjoy your tour overseas and hope to get you back soon so you can be back on a "FSO Schedule". :neener:
We'd fly with you guys anytime.
:salute
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It sounds like you had a very well written set of orders sir, well done. :salute
However, FATE was one of the squads assigned to defend A137 and the surrounding factories, and all that came in were a few P38's that I would assume were to sweep and bring down the cap. After they were dealt with we waited until T60 for the main group that never materialized. I'm thinking they hit the wrong target last night. My squad was coming back into 10.5 sector when I saw several formations to the west of me heading south. Oops! :bolt:
We ended up going north east to find some action. I saw a dot and chased it down discovering it to be a P47. He was totaly unaware of me as I pulled up from 600 behind and opened fire. Not a very good first burst, but as he tried to evade I blasted his right wing that I thought would have blown apart from my cannons from my 109G2, but alas, it did not and I went past him and now he was on my six. Thanx to my Squaddie Pounder and to Shifty I was able to live about 8 min. longer but in the end a few P38's that joined the fray put the smackdown on me.
<<S>> sirs I had fun! :salute
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It sounds like you had a very well written set of orders sir, well done. :salute
However, FATE was one of the squads assigned to defend A137 and the surrounding factories, and all that came in were a few P38's that I would assume were to sweep and bring down the cap. After they were dealt with we waited until T60 for the main group that never materialized. I'm thinking they hit the wrong target last night.
You are right. I just checked the logs and it appears Allied hit A51 and V82 in the south. A137 and V82 is what was written in the orders and objectives.
:o
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You are right. I just checked the logs and it appears Allied hit A51 and V82 in the south. A137 and V82 is what was written in the orders and objectives.
:o
This is correct, targets destroyed at A51 will not be scored for this frame.
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For those who don't know me, I'm Paul, callsign Stellar, OpsO for Claimjumpers, though mostly inactive this year in FSO since I'm in the UK and FSO starts at 4AM here. However for our CiC turn Kurt asked me to put together the plan and lead the mission, so I did. This is my first time out as FSO CiC and side planner.
For this frame, 8th USAAF had four assigned objectives, at Bremen, Hannover, Stuttgart and Schweinfurt. Each objective had 3 strategic targets and a base, and our tasks were to get them destroyed and bring all our planes home. The operational area was fairly covered by enemy radar, restricting our options if we wanted an unexpected approach, and the enemy could be expected to mount patrols in the dead zones. This in turn suggested we'd face a running battle into target, unless we could mislead the enemy. The layout also suggested mounting two co-ordinated strikes, one in the north on Bremen and Hannover, one to the south on Stuttgart and Schweinfurt, deploying my fighters to protect the incoming bomber group as a whole, rather than close-escorting them. The fighters would be deployed as an advance guard squadron ahead of the main group, with the other squadrons arranged ahead, in trail, and to left and right of the bomber group. The routing meant that the whole group would overfly two objective areas, though adhering to the requirement that each target in each area be a specific, primary target for a single strike group. This approach also allowed me to unleash an independent fighter squadron as intruders, with the intent of triggering the radar and drawing the enemy out of position.This being my first FSO, I wasn't entirely sure if this degree of co-ordination would be legal (the rules are a little vague for the specific target arrangement and plan here), so I briefed the concept to Shifty, the scenario designer, who said it was good to go and rather clever :) We were, it must be said, still spread very thin and vulnerable over the target areas, but before and after we were tight and well protected. The only other major decision was whether to go in high, low or inbetween, but really the best option was high, as it would make it harder for driven-down fighters to re-engage us. I assigned B24s for the southern strike, as their higher speed would make it possible to make their required ToTs over the longer distance to be covered there, and B17 to the northern strike, which nicely met the aircraft requirements. I never fly bombers in the MA, so I had to run a few missions to get a feel for the times, speeds and target effects on the ground - an education to be sure. UncleKurt gave me tremendous support in flying the photo-recon missions so I could make target assignments at the individual aircraft level. We had no specific mix of P47 and P38 to meet, so I left the choice of ride to the discretion of the fighter squadron commanders.
I then did up a NATO standard operational plan (somewhat abbreviated). I'm a ground forces guy and make no pretense of being up on air-ops planning factors. If you haven't previously worked with military orders format you might find them of interest.
http://paulchafe.com/fso/opavalanche.doc
On the other hand, if you're a military pilot - move along - nothing to see here!
I also did individual target plans for the northern strike, broken down plane by plane, based on Kurt's recce flights - we just ran out of time to do them for the southern group as well. They were quite useful, and can be seen here...
http://paulchafe.com/fso/alphastrikenorthtargets.doc
http://paulchafe.com/fso/bravostrikenorthtargets.doc
The mission itself was straightforward. I controlled the northern strike, and tasked Branch37 of VF-17 to command the overall southern strike, with LCA flying the other bomber squadron. In the north we formed up and flew our routes over the ocean and around the north end of the radar to come down almost due south over our targets. The formation wasn't bad, although my dream of an airshow-tight wingtip-to-wingtip bomber formation didn't materialize. The AK's were our intruder group, coming in to the southwest, and successfully made contact and lured away at least a squadron of enemy fighters. However, inevitably more enemy were waiting over the target (they knew, after all, that we were coming). Contact calls from VMF 101 (our advance guard) came in ahead of us, and I ordered the trail escorts (132nd and Air Raiders) forward to support them. In retrospect, I should have done this early, since once we were running in to target the odds of being bounced from behind were drastically outweighed by the certainty of a contact in front. The left and right wing escorts (49th and 353rd) were tasked to close protection to keep the fighters off us as we dropped. I learned at this point it is impossible to monitor the air situation, man the tail gun and conduct a bomb run all at the same time - especially because, as mentioned, I never fly bombers, so turret gunnery is a black art to me. I lost a drone to a 109, but my bombs were decently on target, and as the reports came back from the rest of the Claimjumpers it seemed we'd had a good run. I gave the order to regroup, and passed navigation control to G3-MF for their attack, just in time to lose my remaining two planes. I hopped back into the battle as a gunner for N1KDog, managing to down a 110, so I guess I can turret gun to some degree. G3MF also had a good run, we regrouped quite well, and exited the battle without further drama. Reports from the southern strike group were also positive, and the early results are on par with Frame 1.
Lessons learned (or at least experienced!) for future commanders
1) Backbriefs. Slipknot of G3-MF gave me an excellent backbrief (ie, a summary of his understanding of my plan, and an outline of the plan he'd done up to cover his part of it. This is standard military practice (and Slippie is an ex-marine) but not (in my limited experience) FSO practice. This was invaluable in co-ordinating our actions, and identified the fact that I'd set up the airbase bomb plan wrong (I targeted the VH and FH incorrectly - did I mention I never do any bombing?). Next time I'll specifically ask for backbriefs and outline plans returned in orders.
2) Voice procedure. I briefed basic callsign use in orders, but thought it was probably expecting too much as most AH pilots aren't trained to use it. However G3 and AK (and maybe others, I wasn't keeping track) did use it, and it really aided clarity. The value of fixed callsigns, and simply opening a communication with the person you're calling and your own callsign is invaluable. Next time I'm going to brief some basic brevity codes as well. I'll also sharpen up my own VP, which was sloppier than my professional pride is comfy with.
3) Organization. The best plan is no good if everyone doesn't know where they fit in it. This is an issue for FSO, as it's difficult to know for sure who is coming until they show up. My own standard is to set up flights of 4 as AH missions, and then assign slot positions (Lead, left wing, right wing and trail for the bombers) based on whether you're first, second, third or fourth on the mission roster. I set up all the bomber flights this way prior to mission start, and this was reflected in the target plans. It seemed to work OK, but I didn't feel warm and fuzzy that all the targets were properly covered, because I had no feedback that everyone understood how it was supposed to work. Backbriefs and an established SOP within our squad (CJs) would solve this - and I think to better target scores, though the mission recording will tell the tale for sure.
I also set up the fighter squadrons, but most of the COs preferred to set up their own, so next time I'll skip this step.
4) Last, I got MANY compliments on the thoroughness of the orders, which is really just about using the NATO standard format to guide my thinking and getting it all in there. This definitely paid dividends in terms of making sure that squadrons were they were supposed to be, when they were supposed to be. Its a bit more effort to set these up, but well worth it.
Last, I'd like to thank all the squads for their support and participation. It was a good frame, well worth the effort, an excellent experience and rare opportunity to lead some 200 aircraft on a mission like this. Any help I can offer anyone looking to do this in future is yours for the asking.
Cheers!
Paul
Actually I was under the impression you were spliting the two forces into four once in German airspace with each proceeding to their individual targets. Two large groups over flying the same target together is not adhering to the to the requirement that each target in each area be a specific, primary target for an individual single strike group. Even if only one is actually attacking the target it is still basically hoarding. Also I don't recall telling you that you were clever. I didn't see your final orders. I don't read the orders sent out out by the side I'm flying opposite of because in my book that would be a conflict of interest. Had I been able to actually read your orders I would have advised you that this tactic was a violation of FSO standards and had you change them.
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In short, the map has the label “Stuttgart” positioned a sector south of A137. The label depicts the A51 (9,4,4) base as Stuttgart. The actual location is A137 (10,5,5). When Branch37 asked about it at launch, I saw “Stuttgart” by A51 and confirmed (by comm on V122) that was Stuttgart (A51 incorrectly). I messed up and should have followed the printed material that had the correct grids. A51 got hit, A137 did not. (Flashing A51 was actually the diversion). The route traced on the map was correct but the incorrect positioning of the Stuttgart label threw us off in all the rush of launching. Please accept this apology. This is one we can certainly learn from. :salute
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In short, the map has the label “Stuttgart” positioned a sector south of A137. The label depicts the A51 (9,4,4) base as Stuttgart. The actual location is A137 (10,5,5). When Branch37 asked about it at launch, I saw “Stuttgart” by A51 and confirmed (by comm on V122) that was Stuttgart (A51 incorrectly). I messed up and should have followed the printed material that had the correct grids. A51 got hit, A137 did not. (Flashing A51 was actually the diversion). The route traced on the map was correct but the incorrect positioning of the Stuttgart label threw us off in all the rush of launching. Please accept this apology. This is one we can certainly learn from. :salute
Prob won't be the last time it happens. Honest mistake. The Map Grid position for targets will always be included in the Objectives. In the heat of cyber battle weird things happen. I saw a guy accidently bailout last night because he was typing position reports on the enemy. I recall doing the same thing myself once.
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It happened in the real deal. Shouldn't be surprised when it happens here.
:salute
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Needless to say, last night was a great mission. It was planned down to the gritty detail and everyone carried the orders out rather well. Also, the AAR was a really good reflection of the events, from planning to execution. Fog of War certainly played a part as well as in flight communication and organization.
I understand the NATO airstrike planning and also understand that last night's mission was carried out as it actually happened in WWII.
Honestly, I didn't think we were going to punch through but somehow, my bombs found their targets.
I am sure that if there is a violation, it is an honest mistake. When I first saw the orders, that is the very question I raised. It was communicated to me that this was already communicated to the CM and designer if I recall correctly. This being said, we carried out our orders as designed. No intentional bending or rules or violations occured that I saw. All things that happened were addressed up front to ensure we were not in violation. I can definately vouch for UnclKurt and Stellar that they had nothing but the best of intensions to make for a pleasant and realistic experience for all.
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Bannor sounds like we should have been flying into your guys defensive network and that would actually account for why we only had 6 escorts when we were going into what we thought was the target area. Oh well we had a boring flight and only accounted for one bad guy fighter getting shot down and we lost just a couple of drones to making turns that were too tight.
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No worries. We all had a good time. See ya next week! :rock
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The best laid plans of mice and men go aft aglay!
For the record the plan WAS approved, by Shifty (scenario designer) in concept and Warloc (FSO team lead) in detail.
That said, it was approved first through miscommunication and second because the issue was caught too late to make changes. Now that I understand the parameters better, I'll do something else next time.
Also for the record, Shifty is correct and did not say it was "clever," but "a good idea." My apologies, Shifty, for the misquote.
Mea culpa also for the wrong base bombing. This also goes to the importance of early backbriefs, which would have caught this error.
Please be kind to the new guy!
Paul
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Might want to let everybody know where the no-fly zone line is. I had two 110s fighting me until I had to break off do to 6 min of fuel. They chase me pass the 6 line into the no- fly zone, north of v100. After landed at A40 to refuel I headed west when a 109 jumped me right at the 7 line. Fighting to get away the annoying Luftwaffe kept attacking me follow by four other 109s to help him out. It was a good fight but not sure if they ignor the no-fly zone or not.
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*
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Might want to let everybody know where the no-fly zone line is. I had two 110s fighting me until I had to break off do to 6 min of fuel. They chase me pass the 6 line into the no- fly zone, north of v100. After landed at A40 to refuel I headed west when a 109 jumped me right at the 7 line. Fighting to get away the annoying Luftwaffe kept attacking me follow by four other 109s to help him out. It was a good fight but not sure if they ignor the no-fly zone or not.
The Axis no-fly zone shifts West at T-60 to the 3 line.
<S>!
front
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{The Gun Fighters} AAR
The squad did well, over all. Though, I was unable to participate in the action. I will leave the details of the Southern AAR to those who were present. However, I did want to share my experience, as I found it unique – but true to real life events – and I’ve never heard of it happening in FSO, as we are a virtual event; I had to RTB due to mechanicals…
First, I wanted to say; Stellar, Hats off to your Frame Orders! I had a… “moment” as I read them, and even saved off a copy in my archives for future reference. (I’ll be grabbing those links you posted in just a minute :cool:) As members of {The Gun Fighters}, G3-MF, and VF-15 will attest, (the members of these three squads have some experience with me as an Operations Officer) I tend to produce some very involved, sometimes complex, and usually detailed OP-ORDERS. You have given me inspiration going forward – probably to the dismay of some members of my current squad {The Gun Fighters} LOL.
But alas, the best laid plans of mice and men.
And now, for the rest of the story…
Right out the gate things went wrong for me. Could it have been that my client finally released me from the days work at 9:15PM ? That servers were screwed up, as indicated by the fact that the Custom Arena wouldn’t let my squaddies in to practice, and I had to fight with it? It even reached out to the squad CO, as he was unable to join us because he couldn’t get the map to download? Was it that the stars were mis-aligned, and the day was just meant to go astray? We may never know.
What we do know is that I buggered the launch time. When the arena clock was reset from 15:20 to 9:50, I missed out on it completely. So it was that I was already late when I reset our mission time and the squad launched at T+4 instead of T+2 as per the OP-ORD. to complicate matters, I had never joined my own mission!
Now I find my self in the sky a full minute behind everyone else, and fighting to catch up. Luckily, they were throttled back, and I was able to push forward and catch up. Fifteen minutes into the flight I was holding hands welded wing with the squad XO, and as I worked – harder than usual – to stay in formation with him, I noticed the first signs that something was wrong.
My Aileron trim was not working. I use manual trim, and my X-52 Pro was acting up. Not a problem, this has happened in the past where an axis will go wonky, and I’ve got to fix it. I’ve even got my sim-pit set up for just this type of eventuality. The USB hub where all my controllers connect is just in front of me, with in easy reach for a quick reset.
I set my auto-pilot, reached forward to the USB hub, pull the cable for my X-52 stick, and as normal, alt-tab out so I can set the Saitek Profile, I use the Saitek Profiler for ALL other functions, and every button is mapped, and the profiler goes off-line when I reset the stick mid-game like this.
I set the profiler, came back into the game and everything had gone crazy! My nose was pointed at the ground, I’m traveling at 500 mph, in a lazy right hand spiral, and I’m down 12 thousand feet from my last position!. As I try to get sorted I hear my squaddies talking about how I must have discoed, and another saying “no, because he’s still on channel.”
I try and yank the stick to rite my plane: nothing. Desperate, I pull back, still nothing. I mash the left peddle forward, Eureka! Control! Then my heart crashes, all I’ve got is rudder control – the one axis I didn’t pull from the hub. I think to myself “Self you’re a smart pilot, use the auto-pilot!” Quickly, I hit the auto-pilot button on my stick, wait a second or two for the plane to magically level out, but my lazy spiral continues!
Now, I’m starting to worry. I press the tit on my stick for my TX button to both see if I can raise the squad and let them know what’s happening, and also to see if ANY functions work. I get no response. The stick is dead. Then I realize, I keep a keyboard over my monitor as an over-head console. I hit the X, and to my immense relief the auto pilot engages. Phew, I got the bird strait and level.
I want to contact my squad, but my sticks TX button is not working, so I once again have to use the keyboard, but I am able to transmit. I alert them that I’ve got a technical problem, that I’m trying to get control of my aircraft, and then I start working the problem. I pull the plug to reset the stick again. I gave the stick a full fifteen seconds to detect, then gave it a tentative test.
I’m amazed, and rewarded, It works! I once again have positive control of the airplane. Then my heart crashes again as I begin to test out other functions. I quickly find out that primary control is All I have. Pitch, roll, and rudder – that’s it. I don’t panic yet, my stick always requires me to reset the profiler when I unplug it. Once more I alt-tab out and set it.
When I return I’m relieved that at least this time the plane was strait and level, just as I left it. A quick test of the functions, however, show that I’ve still got nothing but the primary flight controls. All secondary functions, flaps, gear, radio, navigation (The clip board map), even guns, they are all off-line.
I use the console keyboard to alert the squad of my situation, and that I’m combat in-effective. They advise that I should turn back, and RTB to save the plane. So I turn around and for the next hour I slowly fly back to the base I launched from (never knew how far that air-spawn was from the base!)
I spend the whole flight back trying different things to see if I can sort out the problem, and get the HOTAS functions back on-line. My frustration mounts as I try everything short of rebooting the system, or dumping the game to get it back. I even let my wife have a hand – like plugging in the USB in a ‘special’ way would make it work,. But alas, it was all futile. I will say, however, that I felt like I was in a real plane, with a real problem, trying to milk my crippled aircraft back to base. I want to save that plane!
During the flight back I was able to use my console-keyboard, mounted over my monitor, for the critical secondary aviation, navigation, and communication functions. Thank god for the redundancy I built into my pit – it was a real ‘Apolo-13’ type feeling. LOL
In the end I was able to safely land and tower out. I rebooted my box, and everything was working normally again. Though, I will start saving for a new stick – another X-52 if I have to, or a Warthog if I can!
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Hehe... I got your IM during FSO about loss of control InCrypt... unfortunately I was in my guns at the time swatting at 190's as they buzzed past me so I wasnt able to respond. Glad you made it back. Sounds like you had your own personal battle going on last night.
Had something similar happen to me once during an FSO... my stick came unplugged during maneuvering... so I am familiar with the downward spiral and panic you are talking about. Something about FSO makes it all the more real.
:salute
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The Axis no-fly zone shifts West at T-60 to the 3 line.
<S>!
front
Sorry, over looked at that part. Thanks. :salute
Never less it was a good fight between the two 110s and five 109s vs me. Wished I had more fuel while fighting the 110s, would have added two more kills on my list. :D
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325th VFG AAR adder:
Great plan and a very nice set of orders. A little to large in file size though I had trouble getting them LOL
The 325th VFG had the "Intruder" Mission in the south. We upped 7 AC and split into 3 flights and went about setting off radars everywhere the bombers weren't. I keep in contact with guys that could see the bomber streams and we adjusted as the bombers went deeper into AXIS territory.
What we tried to do was make the radars in the south all flash in a north south line as the Main Effort moved deeper. It appeared to work from my end and I know we ran into a few scouting AXIS AC who went out to see what was going on.
I'd like to hear from the AXIS side that defended the southern targets if this tactic worked of flashing a lot of radars.
Another fun mission and we all enjoyed it. <S>
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:joystick:
InCrypt,
Sounds like you tried to put your toothpaste back in the tube??? What HE said!
oakranger,
When I went back through the logs there wasn't a whole lot there. The no fly line did shift west at T+60,
so there you have it. Where ever you go, there you are...
Suffice it to say, a very interesting frame with some unplanned challenges. It was an honor to fly with you all!
:salute
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:joystick:
oakranger,
When I went back through the logs there wasn't a whole lot there. The no fly line did shift west at T+60,
so there you have it. Where ever you go, there you are...
Yea, i did not know it shifted. I kept hearing people saying line 6 but nothing about it shifting. Thanks.
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The Axis no-fly zone shifts West at T-60 to the 3 line.
<S>!
front
I thought it was the 4 line not the 3 line
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After thinking about what I am going to say here for a few days let me be the devils advocate on this one. I am not here to argue with you and suggest your plans stunk to high heaven; nor am I here to blow smoke up your skirt and tell you that your poop doesn't stink either.
I think you spent so much time on the orders and getting it right (by your own admission) that you overlooked the fact that simple orders would have been sufficient for accomplishing the task. Instead you chose to use the ballet in the virtual skies to accomplish the simple tasks of using your escorts to blast a hole in the air defenses and then bull rush your bombers into the target and then have them run like hell for home. The two different IP's and Targets for the southern strike were what confused me when I read the orders but I didn't think I was going to be participating so I never voiced a concern or brought up the question to the rest of VF-17 command staff.
The best laid plans never survive going operational; no matter how many times you rehearse them or have meetings to talk about what the previous meetings discussed in order to prepare for the next meeting...aka "backbriefs". Again I think you did a good job putting the plan to paper but some how it got lost in translation to at least one squadron....VF-17. Otherwise we would have been on target, on time. Also we would have had more fun instead of bombing the baby milk factory and now laughing about it just because that is what we do in VF-17.
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Also we would have had more fun instead of bombing the baby milk factory and now laughing about it just because that is what we do in VF-17.
:rofl
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I thought it was the 4 line not the 3 line
Line in gold on the map:
(http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/3540/8thcomk1.png)
<S>!
front
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Reschke brings up an important point, and he is correct in that a very brief table of squadrons and targets would have taken less reading-in to understand. However I don't think don't think orders complexity is the issue here. A51 isn't on the target list - pretty simple.
However as Kurt pointed out, the map is crowded in that area, and if you just use the map it looks like A51 is Stuttgart. While it is true that no plan survives contact with the enemy, it was not the enemy that messed us up here. It was an easy-to-make error that didn't get caught - even though Branch took the trouble to verify the ambiguity. Shorter orders would not have changed the map.
These errors happen, and this error belongs to no single person. However it is the commander's responsibility to make sure his/her orders are understood, and backbriefs are the tool that accomplish this. I didn't specify backbriefs in orders. I should have. Mea (again) culpa.
Cheers!
Paul
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Yep as I said....sometimes you can't see the forest because of all the trees.
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It happens every once in a while, and this certainly wont be the last time it happens. Stellar, this was your first time being CiC correct? I have always noticed that in a crowded map where a strat is a target, a grid refrence usually always avoids confusion. :salute
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Yep, it was my first time out of the gate as CiC. However orders did include map grids! Co-ordinating instructions, para b.
b. Targets.
(1) Alpha North - V66 Bremen Map Grid 9.15.4
(2) Bravo North - A131 Hannover Map Grid 9.13.8
(3) Alpha South - A137 North of Stuttgart Map Grid 10.5.5
(4) Bravo South - V82 Schweinfurt, Map Grid 11.7.8
My wife actually studies the kind of error that happened here. (she's an airforce crash investigator, specializing in human factors). If I can steal her hat for a moment, the underlying problem is that the necessary information to get the bombs on target is in three places.
1) The ops map. This has the routes, the targets and the initial points are clearly marked. However it is large scale, the grids are hard to read and it has no base numbers.
2) The target list (para b). The grids and base numbers are explicitly stated, but the information isn't graphical, so it needs to be put on a map
3) The in-game clipboard map. This can be any scale you want, and shows grids and base numbers. It's also useful because it shows your nav location and heading and is the main tool most of us use for in-game navigation. However, beyond marking a route you can't put any ops graphics on it. When zoomed it, it's hard to have an overall picture of the operational area.
For the other targets using either the ops map or the target list with the clipboard map is enough, because the clipboard map labels clearly put the names on the bases. However at Stuttgart the clipboard map is dense and the label is placed somewhat ambiguously. To resolve the ambiguity, you must use all three inputs, which starts to get complicated. A simpler solution is to ask someone who knows. You asked Kurt on channel 122, but Kurt fell victim to the same ambiguity and confirmed A51 as the target. I was listening on 122, and had I caught this exchange I would have corrected it, but I didn't catch it.
The rest is history.
Part of the problem at Three Mile Island was the requirement for operators to integrate 2 graphical inputs with a table to know if their coolant was boiling or not. Part of Tenerife was the pilots not catching an exchange on their frequency but not directed at them. Map ambiguity has been involved in more military messes than I can even name. The simple answer (and my previous one) is "backbriefs", but even backbriefs are not a solution, just another layer of defence that will sometimes fail. When I consider this on a systems level, the better answer would have been to recognize the map ambiguity (in fact, I had the same issue when I was was writing orders) and directly label the operations map with the grids and base numbers.
Cheers
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I stand corrected