Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: DREDIOCK on March 11, 2012, 07:06:35 PM
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Back in 2007 I posted this looking for more info on my mother in laws brothers loss in WWII as a tail gunner
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=202820.0
Well just uncovered more info. Unfortunately it is copy protected so I cant just C&P here
http://adoptiegraven-database.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7692:sorbino-joseph-g&catid=63:american-war-cemetery-margraten-s&Itemid=147
Now we know what type of plane (but not what model) as a FW 190. the event that took place according to an eyewitness report And pretty much the exact cause of death as being cannon rounds from a 190.
Can anyone else nail down a list of possible pilots who may have been the FW pilot who claimed the kill on this?
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Lists place of death as Hagen n the wesser. Which I found on google maps.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=hagen+germany+map&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1280&bih=830&prmd=imvns&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=NENdT5mjC4Tv0gGA-o3qBw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CDIQ_AUoAg
Im guessing the german fighters had to be stationed near this area
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381st BG Reunion in August at the AF Museum Dred. Might be worth your while
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=44816&sid=4d4db1a46487531c43d614a2a2474876
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Looking through the JG1 history, it says Major Heinz Bar claimed a B-17, Hauptmann Hermann Segatz claimed a 17 and Oberfeldswebel Rudolf Hubl claimed a 17. Not a lot of details though.
The JG300 history says Lt. Gehard Barsdorf shot down a 17 south of Gottington, Germany.
332 German fighters sortied against 255 B17s and their escorts. Fighters claimed 38 B17s out of 41 lost.
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Heinrich Wurzer claimed a B17 on that date. He flew for I./JG-302 and claimed the b17 west of magdeburg.
Although he most likely was flying a G6.
The report claims the B17s were un-escorted at the time.
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Although they did have 190s as well for Stab which he was part of.
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I think I may have found a good lead here. Werner Gerth of Sturmst. 1 Claimed his first B-17 victory on Feb 22 1944 over Bielefeld.
Compare the location of Bielefeld to the location on google maps. its just northeast of and certainly within range of Hagen
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Bielefeld,germany&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=mF5dT-H8BYrz0gGGuYmSDw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CA8Q_AUoAg
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You can download the Missing Aircrew Report on Fold3.com btw. The text on the page you noted is from that. The crew list is there and a map showing where the crash was etc.
Turns out I had the 381st BG history on my shelf. The curse of so many books over the years is I forget what I have sometimes! Nothing specific written about the Downey crew other then this bit in the list of aircraft lost.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/MACRMSU.jpg)
But I thought this was interesting. No name on this Fort, but it's the one your relative went down in. Note the caption and the mention of it's loss on 2/22/44 with the Downey crew. Might get someone to skin it for you with this much info and no nose art to worry about.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/MSU.jpg)
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Got the MACR myself to save you the time. Here ya go
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page10.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page11.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page12.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page13.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page14.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page15.jpg)
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Wow thank you!
Note the final location on the map and compare is to google maps.
Bielefeld,germany
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Bielefeld,germany&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=mF5dT-H8BYrz0gGGuYmSDw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CA8Q_AUoAg
We have a match. And its just south of another name mentioned in other records I had found "bunde"
Although it may never truly be known for certain
So far it looks like the leading candidate for the german pilot would be Werner Gerth of Sturmstaffel 1 as it fits both the date and location. The time is a little off though but within reasonable proximity. Gerth claimed a time of 13:20. A time also noted on the map. But its down time is listed at 14:09.
Is his a reasonable proximity? Is it possible a time zone difference as they each would have been using their own time?
I just looked. near as I can tell there is indeed a 1 hour time zone difference between England and Germany.
Anyone confirm this?
If it were he. It would mark his first of 20 17's he downed
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/gerth.html
Bout the only thing we dont know is if he was flying a 190 and what type that day
Anyone concur?
Seems there is a book out " Sturmstaffel 1: Reich Defence 1943-1944: the War Diary"
Anyone have it?
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Got the MACR myself to save you the time. Here ya go
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page10.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page11.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page12.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page13.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page14.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Page15.jpg)
This is fascinating! I'm curious, why does part of the radio operator's name appear to be redacted? Also, the RO and the two waist gunners are listed as "RTD" and "EUS(?)" what does that mean?
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This is fascinating! I'm curious, why does part of the radio operator's name appear to be redacted? Also, the RO and the two waist gunners are listed as "RTD" and "EUS(?)" what does that mean?
those three were POWs - probably a code associated with that.
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Drediock on the way to germany to settle a score?
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Drediock on the way to germany to settle a score?
That's funny. :rofl
On a serious note, this is an amazing thread.
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EUS is evacuated United Statese. RTD is returned to something or other. Can't remember it at the moment.
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RTD is returned to something or other. Can't remember it at the moment.
Returned to Duty I believe.
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Deter, I wouldn't get hung up on plane type. German pilots in the B of B tended to see Spitfires even when it was Hurricanes. US bomber guys tended to see 190s :)
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Deter, I wouldn't get hung up on plane type. German pilots in the B of B tended to see Spitfires even when it was Hurricanes. US bomber guys tended to see 190s :)
Yes.
Looks like it was hit on the way to the target. Counts out the JG-302 pilot as he hit them egressing back west.
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Deter, I wouldn't get hung up on plane type. German pilots in the B of B tended to see Spitfires even when it was Hurricanes. US bomber guys tended to see 190s :)
Agreed. But in this case it seems to fit. No? Or at least make Gertht eh leading candidate
After you take into account that Gerth would have been reporting in his local time. And the allied would have been keeping track in theirs.
There is only an 11 minute discrepancy.
The location is near exact. The date is the same. And possibly the plane type.
So far I havent been able to find any other rmatches to the area and time. But would be keenly interested if anyone finds anything.
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Sounds like you are on the right track. I just didn't want the plane type to possibly push you away from the pilot that seems to fit if it turned out he was in a 109. The time and place would be the more important info. Keep us up to date if and when you learn more. I'm going to keep looking if that's ok with you.
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LW B-17 claims
U.S. VIII Bomber Command: OSCHERSLEBEN, ASCHERSLEBEN, HALBERSTADT,
BERNBURG, SCHWEINFURT, GOTHA,
AALBORG
JaFü I. Jagdkorps/Lfl. Reich:
22.02.44 Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 35 Stab II./JG 1 B-17 JN-7: 6.000 m. [Raum Kleve] 12.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.57
22.02.44 Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 36 Stab II./JG 1 B-17 HSS 05 Ost S/KO ostw. Wesel: 6.000 m. 12.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.58
22.02.44 Fw. Baunicke 5./ZG 26 B-17 westl. Freising: 6.000 m. 12.45- 13.00 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.56
22.02.44 Oblt. Kurt Senoner 1./JG 5 B-17 bei Mühldorf: 7.000 m. [Bayern] 12.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Ltn. Hans Ehlers: 37 3./JG 1 B-17 05 Ost S/JP : 6.500 m. [Coesfeld-Dülmen] 12.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.13
22.02.44 Fhj-Ofw. Alfred Müller: 5 4./JG 27 P-47 Raum Hagen-Wuppertal: 6.000 m. 12.55 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.207
22.02.44 Major Erich Gerlitz Stab I./JG 5 B-17 bei Mühldorf: 6.100 m. [Bayern] 12.58 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Oblt. Fritz Stehle 5./ZG 26 B-17 südl. Dachau: 6.000 m. [Bayern] 13.00-10 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.57
22.02.44 Ltn. Johannes Jung 6./JG 27 B-17 KP-39: 3.500 m. [Recklinhausen] 13.12 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.73
22.02.44 Ltn. Rudi Dassow 4./ZG 26 B-17 Bielefeld: 6.000 m. 13.35-50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.96
22.02.44 Oberst Walter Oesau: 111 Stab/JG 1 B-17 10 km. N. Thier: 1.000 m. [Gütersloh] 13.36 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.5
22.02.44 Oblt. Paul Bley 9./ZG 26 B-17 - 13.40 Film C. 2031/I Abgelehnt
22.02.44 Ltn. Werner Gerth Sturmstaffel 1 B-17 Bielefeld: 6.500 m. 13.40 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
22.02.44 Gefr. Rudolf Pintsch: 2 11./JG 3 B-17 HSS KN-96: 8.000 m. [E. Geldern] 13.40 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Ofw. Robert Roller: 13 6./JG 3 B-17 JT-2 or FT-2: 7.000 m. [E. Detmold] 13.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.70
22.02.44 Oblt. Rudolf Klemm 7./JG 54 B-17 JT-42: 7.500 m. [E. Detmold] 13.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. 234
22.02.44 Maj. Günther Specht: 30 Stab II./JG 11 B-17 Blomberg-Detmold: 7.100 m. 13.42-55 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.21
22.02.44 Uffz. see 3/2 2./ZG 26 B-17 HT-52: 7.000 m. [Hameln] 13.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. -
22.02.44 Uffz. Siegfried Teske 8./ZG 26 B-17 - 13.50 Film C. 2031/I Noch aussteht
22.02.44 Fw. Emil Hecker 9./JG 54 B-17 JU-65: 6.500 m. [Holzminden-Einbeck] 13.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. -
22.02.44 Oblt. Heinz Knoke: 21 5./JG 11 B-17 05 ost S/HT: 7.000 m. [Raum Hameln] 13.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.192
22.02.44 Uffz. Walter Uecker 9./JG 54 B-17 JU: 6.000 m. [Holzminden-Einbeck] 13.55 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.200
22.02.44 Uffz. Kabitz [sic] 7./JG 54 B-17G JB: 6.500 m. [Bad Harzburg-Halberstadt] 14.03 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.244
22.02.44 Ltn. Gerhard Bärsdorf II./JG 300 B-17 2 km. S. Gifhorn: 7.000 m. 14.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.24
22.02.44 Oblt. Christmann: 5 11./JG 11 B-17 GQ: no height [Hopsten-Bramsche] 14.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.7
22.02.44 Fw. Ritschel: 5 11./JG 11 B-17 05 Ost S/GA-7: 6.000 m. [Peine] 14.56 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Uffz. Merbeth: 1 11./JG 11 B-17 05 Ost S/GS: no height [Lübbecke] 15.00 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.8
22.02.44 Uffz. Kirchner: 2 11./JG 11 B-17 05 Ost S/JR-1: 6.000 m. [W. Gütersloh] 15.05 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.5
22.02.44 Oblt. Hermann Müller 10./NJG 3 B-17 IR-66: 5.500 m. [W. Gütersloh] 15.07 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Oblt. Hermann Müller 10./NJG 3 B-17 JR-66: no height [W. Gütersloh] 15.09 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.14
22.02.44 Oblt. Hans-Heinrich Koenig: 10 3./JG 11 B-17 05 Ost S/NR S.E. Siegen: 7.000 m. 15.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.61
22.02.44 Fhj.Fw. Dreizeher: 3 1./JG 11 B-17 östl. Siegen: 7.000 m. 15.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.5
22.02.44 Fw. Neuendorf: 4 2./JG 11 B-17 NR-1 to NQ-3: 7.000 m. [Siegen area] 15.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
22.02.44 Fw. Franz Steiner: 9 2./JG 11 B-17 NR-8: 7.000 m. [S.W. Siegen] 15.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.100
22.02.44 Fw. Heinz Stöwer: 7 3./JG 11 B-17 NR-8: 7.000 m. [S.W. Siegen] 15.33 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.3
22.02.44 Ltn. Erich Dobrick: 6 Stab I./JG 11 B-17 05 Ost S/NO N.W. Eitorf: 7.000 m. 15.40 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.151
JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lfl. 3:
22.02.44 Ofw. Adlof Glunz: 55 5./JG 26 B-17 Gahlen 7 km. W. Dorsten: 7.000 m. 12.50 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.98
22.02.44 Uffz. Josef Baumann: 1 8./JG 26 B-17 IG-7: 8.500 m. [Aschberg] 13.05 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.10
22.02.44 Ofw. Adolf Glunz: 56 5./JG 26 B-17 HSS N.E. Wesel: 5.700 m. 13.10 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.99
22.02.44 Uffz. Rudolf Georgi: 3 7./JG 26 B-17 HSS Selm 8 km. N. Lünen: 7.500 m. [Ruhr] 13.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.80
22.02.44 Ofw. Adolf Glunz: 58 5./JG 26 B-17 Garzweiler S.W. Grevenbroich: 6.000 m. 15.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
22.02.44 Ofw. Walter Ebert 10./JG 2 B-17 8 km. südl. Antwerpen: 6.000 m. 16.05 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2
Supplemental/Duplicated Claims from Sources:
22.02.44 Uffz. Rudolf Hübl: 11 1./JG 1 B-17 - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Maj. Heinz Bär: 185 6./JG 1 B-17 05 Ost S/KO, nordestlich Bottrop 12.51 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Fw. Fuchs: 11 4./JG 1 B-17 HSS 05 Ost S/JP, südostlich Coesfeld 13.00 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Fhj.Fw. Zauter: 1 6./JG 1 B-17 e.V. 05 Ost S/KO-5/6, raum Wesel 13.05 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Uffz. Tüngler: 2 5./JG 1 B-17 HSS 05 Ost S/KN, Xanten 6.000 m. 13.05 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Uffz. Zinkl: - 4./JG 1 B-17 e.V. 05 Ost S/JQ-4, raum Münster 13.06 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Uffz. Irmer: n.b. Stab II./JG 1 B-17 - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Maj. Heinz Bär: 186 6./JG 1 B-17 05 Ost S/HO-1/4, nördl. Grevenbroich 14.18 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Oberst Walter Oesau: 112 Stab/JG 1 B-17 - 15.25 Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Fhj.Fw. Güthenke: n.b 3./JG 11 B-17 - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Fw. Wennekers: 13 5./JG 11 B-17 - - Reference: JG 1 List f. 1202
22.02.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sannemann: 21 6./JG 3 B-17 - 13.55 Reference: JG 3 List f. 452
22.02.44 Gefr. Rudolf Pintsch: 3 11./JG 3 B-17 - - Reference: JG 3 List f. 354
22.02.44 Lt. Johannes Jung: e.V. 6./JG 27 B-17 e.V. 05 Ost S/KP-3/9 13.17 Reference: JG 27 List f. 564
22.02.44 Hptm. Heinrich Wurzer: 6 1./JG 302 B-17 - - Reference: WR JG 301-02
22.02.44 Oblt. Müller: 15 IV./NJG 3 B-17 bei Aalborg - Reference: DLC: B: KA: M
22.02.44 Oblt. Müller: 16 IV./NJG 3 B-17 bei Aalborg - Reference: DLC: B: KA: M
Air Defence of the Reich [RLV]: 22. February 1944
Unit Commander Division Base Luftkampf Claims KiA WiA 100-60% 60%
III./JG 54 Hptm. Klemm 1. Jagddivision Ludwigslust 6 B-17: 1 B-17 HSS - 1 1 1
Ind. Erla Hptm. Laube 1. Jagddivision Delitsch - - 1 1 -
Luftbeo.St.2 n.n. 1. Jagddivision - 2 1 1 -
SKdo. OKL n.n. 1. Jagddivision Staaken - 1 - 1 -
Fl.Ü.G. 1 n.n. 1. Jagddivision - - 1 - 1 -
Stab/ZG 26 Obstlt. B-Tettelbach 1. Jagddivision Wunstorf - - - - -
I./ZG 26 n.n. 1. Jagddivision Völkenrode 1 B-17 - 2 2 -
II./ZG 26 Hptm. Tratt KiA 1. Jagddivision Hildesheim 3 B-17 2 - 1 2
III./ZG 26 Hptm. Kogler 1. Jagddivision Wunstorf 2 B-17 4 3 8 -
Sturmst. 1 Maj. Kornatzki 2. Jagddivision Langenhagen 1 B-17 - - - -
II./JG 3 Hptm. Rohwer 2. Jagddivision Rotenburg 2 B-17 - - 1 2
Stab/JG 11 Oberst. Graf 2. Jagddivision Husum - - - - -
I./JG 11 Hptm. Hermichen 2. Jagddivision Husum 6 B-17 - - - 1
II./JG 11 Hptm. Specht 2. Jagddivision Wunstorf 3 B-17: 1 P-51 - - 1 3
III./JG 11 Maj. Hackl 2. Jagddivision Oldenburg - - - 1 -
11./JG 11 Oblt. Christmann 2. Jagddivision Lister 4 B-17 2 - 2 -
IV./NJG 3 Hptm. Buschmann 2. Jagddivision Westerland 2 B-17 - - - -
Stab/JG 1 Oberst. Oesau 3. Jagddivision Deelen 2 B-17 - - - -
I./JG 1 Hptm. Schnoor 3. Jagddivision Rheine 2 B-17 1 - 3 -
II./JG 1 Hptm. Segatz 3. Jagddivision Rheine 3 B-17: 3 B-17 HSS: 2 B-17 e.V.: 1 P-47 - 1 5 1
III./JG 1 Hptm. Eberle 3. Jagddivision Volkel - 1 - 2 1
I./JG 3 Hptm. Haiböck i.V. 3. Jagddivision Mönchengladbach 2 P-47 3 - 4 -
IV./JG 3 Hptm. Lang i.V. 3. Jagddivision Venlo 2 B-17: 1 P-51 1 - 3 -
II./JG 300 Hptm. Peters 3. Jagddivision Rheine 2 B-17 - - - -
II./JG 2 Hptm. Bühligen 5. Jagddivision Creil 1 B-17 HSS 1 - 1 6
III./JG 2 Hptm. Huppertz 5. Jagddivision Cormeilles 1 B-17: 1 B-24 3 1 4 3
II./JG 26 Hptm. Naumann 4. Jagddivision Cambrai/Epinoy 4 B-17: 4 B-17 HSS: 3 P-47 2 2 6 2
Stab/JG 3 Oberst Wilcke 7. Jagddivision Neubiberg - - - - -
II./JG 27 Hptm. Schroer 7. Jagddivision Wiesbaden 1 B-17 e.V., 1 P-47 - 1 2 -
I./ZG 101 Maj. Smolle 7. Jagddivision Memmingen 1 B-17 - - - -
Combats & Casualties Reichsverteidigung 22.2.44: - 25 13 53 53
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this is an amazing thread. I'd love to be a forensic historian.
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LW B-17 claims
22.02.44 Ltn. Werner Gerth Sturmstaffel 1 B-17 Bielefeld: 6.500 m. 13.40 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
Anyone know how to access these films? Would be an easy way to either confirm the report or rule Gerth out.
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Sounds like you are on the right track. I just didn't want the plane type to possibly push you away from the pilot that seems to fit if it turned out he was in a 109. The time and place would be the more important info. Keep us up to date if and when you learn more. I'm going to keep looking if that's ok with you.
Werner Gerth in January of 44 was known to be flying a FW 190 A6 called "white 1"
Though his squad sturmstaffel 1 flew modified A5's and A6's (added armor was added to critical areas and armored glass was added to the side and front quarterpanels of the cockpit. They later flew the A-7s around February /march 1944
Artists rendition
(http://rafiger.de/Homepage/FBMuseum/Info-JG4/Profile/Fw-190-A6-ST1-White1.jpg)
Speaking of which. Stumbled across this site. Has some real nice artwork for wallpaper and maybe skin reference such as the pict that follows the link
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/Fw-190A-ST1-White-1-Gerth/pages/RG-Fw-190A6-Sturmstaffel-1-Werner-Gerth-attacking-381st-BG-17Gs-V02.html
(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/Fw-190A-ST1-White-1-Gerth/images/RG-Fw-190A6-Sturmstaffel-1-Werner-Gerth-attacking-381st-BG-17Gs-V02.jpg)
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looks like it was a 190 http://www.feldgrau.com/JG1.htm
II./JG1 based: 13.7.43 - 18.3.44 Rheine Fw 190A
Hptm Hermann Segatz, 2.44 - 8.3.44
He also claimed two B-17's on the 22nd:
22.02.44 Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 35 Stab II./JG 1 B-17 £ JN-7: 6.000 m. [Raum Kleve] 12.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.57
22.02.44 Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 36 Stab II./JG 1 B-17 HSS £ 05 Ost S/KO ostw. Wesel: 6.000 m. 12.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.58
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looks like it was a 190 http://www.feldgrau.com/JG1.htm
II./JG1 based: 13.7.43 - 18.3.44 Rheine Fw 190A
Hptm Hermann Segatz, 2.44 - 8.3.44
He also claimed two B-17's on the 22nd:
22.02.44 Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 35 Stab II./JG 1 B-17 £ JN-7: 6.000 m. [Raum Kleve] 12.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.57
22.02.44 Hptm. Hermann Segatz: 36 Stab II./JG 1 B-17 HSS £ 05 Ost S/KO ostw. Wesel: 6.000 m. 12.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.58
had looked at that but the times are off. there is indeed a 1 hour time difference between England and Germany
Allies would be reporting in English time zone where as the germans would be reporting an hour later according to their tie zone.
It was one of the things I kept looking at. the plane was true to the eyewitness report and the location is about as spot on as one could ask for. Including the proximity of Bundt which is mentioned in the 381st logs. The only thing off was the time.
Then I heard someone say on the TV about daylight savings time and it dawned on me that the time zones might be different so I looked it up and sure enough a 1 hour time difference.
Therefore anything that a german pilot might have recorded as happening at 1400 hours would have been recorded by allied pilots as happening at 1300 hours.
Taking that into account That narrows down the Gerth claimed victory to that of the allied report of the plane going down to a difference of only 11 minutes.
Id love to get hold of that film to be sure one way or the other though.
Still based on the reports. It looks as though the probability is that of a 190 regardless of whom it was flown by
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http://youthtool.net/w/Time_zones
(http://youthtool.net/images/f/fe/Timezone.jpg)
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Returned to Duty I believe.
EUS probably means "Ex-patriated back to US" after the war, with the RTD maybe being guys who made their way back after bailing?
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EUS probably means "Ex-patriated back to US" after the war, with the RTD maybe being guys who made their way back after bailing?
The survivors probably RTD'ed after the cessation of hostilities as they became POWs.
My mother in law said they came to her house after the war and talked to her mother. What was said we dot know. All my mother in law was told was that the plane blew up. that was the assumption she went buy until I found documentation to the contrary. She didnt even know there was a grave sight.
I had asked her if she wanted me to continue looking to see what I could find. And if I should see if I could find out the name of the German pilot if possible. she definitely wanted me to. I guess out of curiosity. If she felt any ill will to the Germans. She never made it known. According to her it was war.
My father in law on the other hand. He hated the Japaneese till the day he died. but then again. he actually fought against them
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The coords given in Guppy's post put the a/c shot down ~8.6mi from Paderborn @ 48* heading.
22.02.44 Ofw. Robert Roller: 13 6./JG 3 B-17 JT-2 or FT-2: 7.000 m. [E. Detmold] 13.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.70
22.02.44 Oblt. Rudolf Klemm 7./JG 54 B-17 JT-42: 7.500 m. [E. Detmold] 13.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. 234
22.02.44 Maj. Günther Specht: 30 Stab II./JG 11 B-17 Blomberg-Detmold: 7.100 m. 13.42-55 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.21
Detmold is ~10mi north of the coords Guppy posted.
Blomberg is ~10mi e of Detmold
Note, the JT is the German coords system.
The Segatz claims are too far west.
Dred, I will ask at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/ They are into history of air actions.
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The left waist gunner ADOLPH V. CARINI was born on February 13, 1923 and lived in NJ 07481 (Wyckoff, Bergen County) till he passed May 22, 1997 at 74 years of age. Maybe he has family near you.
Earl E. Matheson, 78, of Franklin, Kansas, passed Feb. 1, 2000
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Werner Gerth in January of 44 was known to be flying a FW 190 A6 called "white 1"
Though his squad sturmstaffel 1 flew modified A5's and A6's (added armor was added to critical areas and armored glass was added to the side and front quarterpanels of the cockpit. They later flew the A-7s around February /march 1944
Artists rendition
(http://rafiger.de/Homepage/FBMuseum/Info-JG4/Profile/Fw-190-A6-ST1-White1.jpg)
Speaking of which. Stumbled across this site. Has some real nice artwork for wallpaper and maybe skin reference such as the pict that follows the link
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/Fw-190A-ST1-White-1-Gerth/pages/RG-Fw-190A6-Sturmstaffel-1-Werner-Gerth-attacking-381st-BG-17Gs-V02.html
(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/Fw-190A-ST1-White-1-Gerth/images/RG-Fw-190A6-Sturmstaffel-1-Werner-Gerth-attacking-381st-BG-17Gs-V02.jpg)
I have been researching Sturmstaffel 1 for thirty years and am hoping to publish my definitive history in the next two years. Where did you find the information that Leutnant Werner Gerth flew "white 1"?
Barry