Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bustr on March 16, 2012, 08:18:28 PM
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For the past 2 years I've been searching for available documents on the internet to understand the ballistics of the MK108 30mm. I've only found two testing results documents, one from testing at Rechlin E6 and one from Rheinmetall-Borsig themselves. I've recently run the data I have through a modern ballistics calculator and found some mistakes in my interpritation of the measurment units used in the documents. The units in the documents assume a common knowlege of the time so no unit legends are included in the documents.
The Borsig document included a Gyroscopic Right Hand Spin Drift chart for the 30mm round which I have been applying the wrong unit of measurment to their numbers. This is what caused me to find a modern ballistics calculator that produced spin drift results to correct my mistake.
I've converted meter and centimeter values to feet and inches for Drop, Dispersion and Spin Drift.
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MK108 30mm Ballistics
Projectil Type - 3 cm Minengeschoss 108 Ausführung A mit Zerleger
Projectile Weight - 330g +-8
Projectile Length - 146mm (5.7in)
Initial Velocity - 500 m\sec (1640 ft\sec)
Barrel Firing Angle - 0 degree
Length of Barrel - 26 inches
Length of Riffling in Barrel - 21 inches
Rate of Right Hand Twist - 1:16
Range(M)..m\sec...ToF.....Drop......Disp......RH.Spin.Drift
0..............500........0.. ......0..........0........... 0
50............486....(.10s)...(2in).....###.......(1.7in)
100..........472....(.21s)...(8in).....(6.8ft).....(3.7in) <---- 109 yards
150..........459....(.31s)...(1.5ft)...###.......(5.9in)
200..........446....(.42s)...(2.7ft)...(14.0ft)....(8.4in) <---- 218 yards
250..........434....(.54s)...(4.4ft)...###........(11.0in)
300..........422....(.63s)...(6.5ft)...(21.9ft)....(1.1ft) <----- 328 yards
350..........411....(.77s)...(9.0ft)...###.......(.1.3ft)
400..........400....(.90s)...(12.0ft)..(30.2ft)...(1.6ft) <----- 437 yards
425.......................... ............................. ..(1.7ft)
450..........390....(1.02s)..(15.5ft)..###.......######
500..........379....(1.15s)..(19.6ft)..(39.2ft)..######
525.......................... ............................. ..(2.25ft)
550..........370....(1.29s)..(24.0ft)..###.......######
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You can see why tilting your barrel(Convergence) up inside of the DB605 and Ju213 hollow airscrew shafts for a zero of 250 yards in the game causes you to shoot realtively flat to 250 yards. It's the dispersion that screws your aim.
By the way I'm still looking for the german armerors manual that details the exact tilting procedure inside of airscrew shafts and what the adjustable mounts look like. It took me 2 years to get to this data, I can keep looking. So far all of the manuals I've translated detail with "Strong Warnings" for MG151/20 and MK108 about harmfull results, to make sure the cannon is bolted centered in the airscrew shaft.
I'm sure they are out there.
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Thanks for taking the time to research.
<S>
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Good research, wtg.
:salute
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damn, 330g :huh
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Good stuff :aok
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damn, 330g :huh
Yep, it's basically a hand grenade's worth of boom.
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Yep, it's basically a hand grenade's worth of boom.
I've always been impressed by the aces high lancasters, soaking them like if it was 50cal :noid but that's another story
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I've always been impressed by the aces high lancasters, soaking them like if it was 50cal :noid but that's another story
Wingtip seems the easiest way to kill a Lanc.
As for the OP, very nice work. Im can't imagine why a round to the engine block wouldn't blow the front quarter of the plane to pieces or at least take the propeller off. Instead, the result is usually a dead engine or a oil hit.
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The HE round is unable to penetrate the engine and as it is triggered upon entering the engine compartment what it probably does is that it blows off the engine cowling and possibly makes a few smaller holes to engine cleaning all the adjacent tubing and wiring away. After all it's all about pressure build-up. If the round would enter the engine before exploding and use that space for pressure to build-up and when blowing up add all that fuel in the engine and the result would probably be quite spectacular.
The AP would be a bit different. Imagine a 30mm AP through an engine running at full revs and breaking the crankshaft in two. The engine itself would probably take care of the rest... But there were no AP for fighters.
-C+
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I'm gonna start flying a Hurri2D then. I better get 1 shot 1 kill. :noid
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The HE round is unable to penetrate the engine and as it is triggered upon entering the engine compartment what it probably does is that it blows off the engine cowling and possibly makes a few smaller holes to engine cleaning all the adjacent tubing and wiring away. After all it's all about pressure build-up. If the round would enter the engine before exploding and use that space for pressure to build-up and when blowing up add all that fuel in the engine and the result would probably be quite spectacular.
The AP would be a bit different. Imagine a 30mm AP through an engine running at full revs and breaking the crankshaft in two. The engine itself would probably take care of the rest... But there were no AP for fighters.
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ok, but in aces high, a 30mm hit will kill a fighter's engine, whatever the model.
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ok, but in aces high, a 30mm hit will kill a fighter's engine, whatever the model.
It will kill the engine but not blow it apart. Almost all my tater kills are wings, tails or fires. There is explosion every now and then but it's mostly due to killing the pilot (which has the same effect). And you can easily tell if it's a pilot hit due to the orange flash. Only very rarely will a plane explode due to a non-pilot hit (I hit the bottom of the plane, or where the fuel was leaking). So rough estimate:
90% - wings, tails
8% pilot kill
2% explosion
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I was pointing the different treatment between bombers and fighters. I always whine about the bombers toughness , including the A20. Sorry for the thread hijack ^^
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British test firing of the MK 108 against a Spit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk
Not much left of that 17... :uhoh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDOAb_E8EtU
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HoHun, Tony Williams colleague explained that the spitfire and blenhiem tests were performed against multiple airframes and the pictures and films we see today are of the most dramatic results. The British did not understand how the Mineshell worked opposed to their HS20mm HE or HEI. In the Mineshell testing the results were that 30% of the airframes were kills and the rest unservicable.
The 20mm HE had a thick steel caseing which combined kinteic penetration due to the fuse timing then an explosion that threw around large slow chunks of the casing. I beleive the common explosive was 6-11 grams of TNT.
The 3 cm M-Gesch. 108 Ausf.A m. Zerl. had 85 grams of HA41 (hexogen aluminium) or 85 grams of penthrite. I've seen mostly HA41. The Stielhandgranate 24 stick grenade has 165 grams of TNT. HA41 is roughly 2.5x more energetic and explosivly burns 2x of TNT. TNT - 900c vs. HA41 - 1800c. The NS-37 HE had about 27 grams of TNT with a thick steel casing.
What the British did not understand about the Mineshell was the highly energetic explosion turned the thin steel caseing into tiny, sharp, very high speed shards that blew through aluminum skin, control cables, internal structures and crewmen like knives. The 8th Airforce performed tests on a B24 and determined the shell casing performed more damage than the explosion.
The Mineshell 30mm did not need to penetrate the aluminum skin due to the high speed steel shards. The photo of the B17 looks like the mineshell entered the open gunners window exploding inside which accounts for the amount of blast damage(85g HA41) and bulging. The Mineshell was being used since the BoB in Bf109E 20mm for the explosive shard damage effect against BoB British fighters. The germans used a collection of rounds in the 13mm-20mm knowing what the combined effects would be. Look in the back of Schiessfibel for a visual explanation.
The 3 cm M-Gesch. 108 Ausf.A m. Zerl. going off against the tail, body and wings of aircraft should be slicing up important structures underneath the aluminum skin. The least of which shreading oil lines, fuel lines and cutting control cables. Even wounding or killing the pilot and crew. If it happens to penetrate the skin before detonation, it should go off like a stick grenade pushed into the aluminum skin then the pin pulled. From reading, the sense I get about HE type fuses in general is explosion was at contact or there was just enough delay for the round to force into the aluminum skin allowing the detonation to expand into the ariframe cavety. Granted angle of attack to the aluminum surface could cause a bounce away or surface explosion relying on the casing shards to perform damage. HEI and SemiAP HE will have a delayed detonation fuze to allow full penetration and not used in the same rational as a Mineshell round.
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What the British did not understand about the Mineshell was the highly energetic explosion turned the thin steel caseing into tiny, sharp, very high speed shards that blew through aluminum skin, control cables, internal structures and crewmen like knives.
To sum up, one hit would ruin your day. Look at the thread in the general discussion, Changeup has a picture of himself holding up a shell (it looks like a 20mm though).
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To be honest after all of this research I think the damage modeling is not currently capable of doing justice to the kinds of hi speed shrapnel damage cuased by the 30mm Mineshell and high temps with preassure wave. And when eventualy it does, I hope Hitech finally locks all aircraft with motor mounted cannon to the airscrew shaft line and forces everyone to shoot from 0 incidence from the airscrew line rather than allowing you to average the drop across the first 250 yards.
That up tilt inside of the engine lets you describe your kill zone rather than having to learn to shoot to a static kill zone described by the limitations of the cannon to engine mounting.
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To be honest after all of this research I think the damage modeling is not currently capable of doing justice to the kinds of hi speed shrapnel damage cuased by the 30mm Mineshell and high temps with preassure wave. And when eventualy it does, I hope Hitech finally locks all aircraft with motor mounted cannon to the airscrew shaft line and forces everyone to shoot from 0 incidence from the airscrew line rather than allowing you to average the drop across the first 250 yards.
That up tilt inside of the engine lets you describe your kill zone rather than having to learn to shoot to a static kill zone described by the limitations of the cannon to engine mounting.
I agree it would be more relevent to have each aircraft convergence setting set to 100% realism. But that would not really matter in AH, the player would adjust for it and the result would be essentially the same.
As for realistic dmg of a tater whacking your aircraft, I have no idea, but it feels right. Smacking fuselage of an aircraft with several rounds and no kill seems to make sense to me overall. (sure you might break a ton of stuff...but is the plane flyable?) and hitting a wing usually results in the wing saying goodbye to the air frame. This makes sense overal, is it perfect...prolly not, but its close.
I suspect the problem is that a 30mm is viewed as a one shot kill period. weapon. It isnt, it never pretended to be either.
So yes, if you smack an enemy with a tater it will prolly die with one hit, thats true. Nothing says it's supposed to do that 100% of the time though, and history will agree with that idea.
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The 30mm Mineshell is pretty much a spin stabalised aireal mortor round with a very High Explosive detonation. By design it was expected to damage bombers with it's sharpnel and if possible it's blast wave.
As for the motor cannon in the game, let everyone adapt to how all the guns in each aircraft were really harmonised. Right now with tilting the cannon up inside of the engine you can create a focus point for all three guns rather than accept your accuracy becomes crapola past 250. In the real aircraft with MG and 20mm, due to similar velocities, had a resonable dispersion circle out to about 400 with the 20mm dropping lower than the MG by 600. With the current up tilting cannon you can make the 20mm rise to meet the MG at 400 dropping with the MG at 600. Very nice patterning.
This gets worse with an MG and 30mm mix where your best patterning for fighter to fighter was 100-250 meters while 400-550 meters was your best pattern for bombers if you wanted to not attract a cloud of 50cals. In the game you can create an excellent pattern 100-400 tilting the MK108 up inside of the engine with the MG as long as you learn the lead timing for a 400 yard shot. As far as I can tell the hood MG on all the fighters in the game are set to level or zero while the nose cannon and wing guns are angled up to their line with the convergence application.
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"By design it was expected to damage bombers with it's sharpnel and if possible it's blast wave."
The other way around actually. The MG shot was special at its time because they both 20mm and 30mm used a very thin casing maximizing the explosive content so that in practice the only heavy shrapnel was the thicker fuse in the nose of the projectile. So the primary function of MG was to provide pressure and depending of type the secondary was the incendiary effect the shrapnel effect being only a minor factor. In comparison the Hisso HE was had only little HE content but the shrapnel effect was better due to thick walled round but even in that round the fuse was a significant particle to penetrate if it hit a thicker target.
http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/weapons15.htm
-C+
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The 30mm Mineshell is pretty much a spin stabalised aireal mortor round with a very High Explosive detonation. By design it was expected to damage bombers with it's sharpnel and if possible it's blast wave.
As for the motor cannon in the game, let everyone adapt to how all the guns in each aircraft were really harmonised. Right now with tilting the cannon up inside of the engine you can create a focus point for all three guns rather than accept your accuracy becomes crapola past 250. In the real aircraft with MG and 20mm, due to similar velocities, had a resonable dispersion circle out to about 400 with the 20mm dropping lower than the MG by 600. With the current up tilting cannon you can make the 20mm rise to meet the MG at 400 dropping with the MG at 600. Very nice patterning.
This gets worse with an MG and 30mm mix where your best patterning for fighter to fighter was 100-250 meters while 400-550 meters was your best pattern for bombers if you wanted to not attract a cloud of 50cals. In the game you can create an excellent pattern 100-400 tilting the MK108 up inside of the engine with the MG as long as you learn the lead timing for a 400 yard shot. As far as I can tell the hood MG on all the fighters in the game are set to level or zero while the nose cannon and wing guns are angled up to their line with the convergence application.
So what's the realistic setting to set a hub cannon to? I suck at reading comprehension, but from what I can tell, the maximum is D250?
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As the hub cannon cannot be adjusted the limit comes from sight adjustment limits. So when adjusting the convergence IRL you adjust the sight to converge with 30mm trajectory at desired range and then adjust to MGs to converge with that point.
-C+
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Go in the hanger and pull up the convergence applet. F3 and set your view off to a side using NUM_Key's. You will have to play with the view keys and zoom to get a complete view of the white MG line and colored cannon line together. Look at the lines for the MG vs the HUB cannon. MG lines are level but, change where the streams cross when you pull them out or in. The motor cannon colored line angles up and slides along the white MG lines 150-650. I will venture the reticule line of site is tied to the colored motor cannon line becasue at any convergence you set the motor cannon the reticle is zeroed for that distance like zeroing a rifle scope. Befor and after the zeroed distance you need to know how much to aim low or hi.
You can graph this outcome by flying auto leveled offline at about 250-280 t.a. and recording impact points from 50-650 at every 50 yards for say convergences of 150, 250 and 350. Throw 650 in if you only beleive what you prove to yourself impericaly. I created a reticle for recording IP points with 2.5Mil gradients for that purpose. I've done this numerous times with most of this games fighters while researching the ballistics for the MK108 over the past few years. With wing mounted guns that have hood MG the wing guns convergence point slide along the level line of the MG. With Wing only guns, one of the 2-4 pairs of guns is the primary that the reticle center line is tied to.
Where the wing guns are concerned that is realistic if you had a very cooperative armeror who didn't mind micro adjusting your gunsight center each time you wanted to change your horizontal convergence from 150-650. Bf109 rumpf MG were adjusted ballisticly pointing slightly down to zero at 400 meters with the motor cannon. This gave you 2 horizontal convergence sweet spots. One about 250 meters and one at 400 meters. You can see this in any 109 armeors manual. This is part of why Revi gunsights had about 14 degrees of adjustment. The most I can determine for Yak's is the MG fired level with the motor cannon becasue their MG and cannon had similar ballistics out to 500 meters.
I keep searching the internet to find the armerors manual for the Ta152-H. I'm curious how they resolved the ballistics between the two MG151/20 and the MK108. If they followed the Bf109 setup then the MG151/20 have to be down angled to impact -338cm at 400 meters with the MK108.
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I suspect the problem is that a 30mm is viewed as a one shot kill period. weapon. It isnt, it never pretended to be either.
I think the flaw in this reasoning is that unlike our cartoon planes, most airplanes, flying shrapnel would sever control cables, ruin all sorts of stuff in them, etc... leaving your plane 'in-tact' but unflyable. The net effect is the same, you can't fly it. Our AH planes are all or nothing deals, ie either your wing is off or its fully functional. In RL, maybe the wing didn't fall off, but it was so damaged, that the moment 2+gs were pulled, it would fall apart, twist off, etc...
As for the cannon being useless beyond 250 meters... well in game, for everyone but grizz, it is useless beyond 250 yards.
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So Bustr, without knowing the angle of the thrust line and all the other details pertaining to the hub cannon that you know, what would be the best 'convergence' setting for the Mk-108 in Aces High to reflect the actual real world set up of the weapon?
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All of the convergence are lofting the round up to the MG line.
150 will peak you closest and give you an aproximate realistic drop by 400 through to 600. 200-250 as the conventional game wisdom goes sort of flatens it out to 400. Flaten in a 5Mil versus 10Mil by 400 from your reticles perspective. The random dispersion introduced by the code will fill about a 5Mil circle out to 400. This means offline against the drones at 400 in a low E angle off chaseing shot, lead by 20-25Mil and loft by 10Mil with a 1sec burst. Connected over the Internet in the MA...yes, maybe, no.......just be inside of 250.
Having a slight tilt up in all of the motor mounted cannons gives you a miniscuel amount of loft in angle off lead shots. Sort of like having your fighters nose angled up into the turn just a bit farther than you realise. Kind of an invisible mini reverse Concord landing nose configuration.
Take a water hose and hold it out level in front of you and watch how the stream emidiatly arches straight out but always down in responce to gravity. Now roll it slightly to a side and see how the stream keeps responding to gravity the same way. Go back to the starting position but angle the nosel slightly up. Now the stream first goes up before arching down in response to gravity. Keeping the up angle roll it over to the side. Notice now your stream shoots out to that side then down.
No matter if you pull our motor cannons back to 150 they are still angled up in your engine block and shooting like the second water hose example. I just figure if Hitech is now working on making the GV ballistics as realistic as possible along with the optics he might visit the motor cannons and make their ballistics authentic. Just lock them level and let them shoot from zero straight out responding to gravity.
By the way, the MK108 shoots a right hand curve ball (Spin Drift). Rougly 18 inches right by 400 yards. And a bit over 3 feet at 600 yards. I'm not sure it is modeled in the game so much as random dispersion is. In real life I think it was a sub 200 yard shooter for anything smaller and faster than a bomber. If you also combine the ballistic drops of aproximently 12ft@400 and 30ft@600. Ain't it nice we don't have air turbulence and prop wake turbulence in the game to bounch your aim about? Well, in a way if the pots in your joystick are boffo. There is a section in the german gunnery manual Schiessfibel that warns about prop wake turbulence from bombers and it screwing your aim.
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damn, 330g :huh
We call it a tater for a reason.
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(http://www.inert-ord.net/luft02h/rounds_cmpr5.jpg)
"A1" is the U.S. .30 and .50 cal. "G" is the 30 mm used in the MK 108.
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Ow. :huh
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And (H.) 30x184B Minengeschoß is fired in the MK101 and MK103.
I hope our Me410 has the 2 MK103 varient option. Mineshell at 860m\sec versus 500m\sec. Be like having 2 NS-37 firing HE rounds but more potent. MK108 - 85g HE versus NS-37 27g HE.
And if we could vote in the Hs-129 with the Mk103 belly pack for killing tanks.
Armour penetration: AP-T 231g Wolfram-Karbid core. 960m\s: AP-T 70 mm (2.75 in)/60°/300 m or 100 mm (3.9 in)/90°/300 m.
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Thanks for all the information and pictures. :salute
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How many rounds of MK103 did the 410 carry? And were they synchronized together? :pray
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How many rounds of MK103 did the 410 carry? And were they synchronized together? :pray
IIRC,each Mk103 carried 100 rounds. Since they didnt fire through a propeller I dont think they needed to be synchronized,they were electrically fired so I would think they could be synchronized.
:salute
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IIRC,each Mk103 carried 100 rounds. Since they didnt fire through a propeller I dont think they needed to be synchronized,they were electrically fired so I would think they could be synchronized.
:salute
:O :eek: :x Titan found a new toy.
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What do we want?!
Me 410!
When do we want it?!
NOW!!!
:rock
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There's going to be a lot of waaambulances needed when the 410 first appears.
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lol Why?
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One ping deaths at 1000 yards? :rofl
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Yeah, but it will only be slightly more annoying than the Mossie with it's four Hisookas.
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the 410 will be a brick IMO, think twin engined fw190 :D
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lol Why?
You got guys that spent years in the K4/tater planes with a MK108. Which fires slower.
Now put those guys in a 410 with a MK103 which fires ~150% faster with better ballistics.
I don't care how the thing flies, you give me *one* snapshot and you're dead.
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MK 108 rate of fire: 650 r/m.
MK 103 (HE/M) rate of fire: 380 r/m.
So two MK 103 will barely outgun a single MK 108 in rate of fire, and also in weight of fire since they use the same shell. The only thing the MK 103 has going for it is the laser accuracy and range.
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MK 108 rate of fire: 650 r/m.
MK 103 (HE/M) rate of fire: 380 r/m.
So two MK 103 will barely outgun a single MK 108 in rate of fire, and also in weight of fire since they use the same shell. The only thing the MK 103 has going for it is the laser accuracy and range.
Faster as in muzzle velocity. My fault for not clarifying.
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bustr have you seen this footage? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk)
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What do we want?!
Me 410!
When do we want it?!
NOW!!!
:rock
Welcome to 6-months ago.
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the 410 will be a brick IMO, think twin engined fw190 :D
Twin long-nosed fw, if it makes any difference to you. :devil
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On another forum I think ww2.aircraft.net back around 2009, HoHun, Tony William's colleuge, explained that the British performed tests on about 10 spit and 10 Bleni. 30% were destroyed the rest considered possible destroyed or unservicable.
The explosive preassure and thermodynamic nature of the blast took the path of least resistance.
It skined the area forward of the initial penetration becasue it hit at a shallow angle and sheared up the skin. Any shallower and it would have bounced along the surface of the wing. The fuse body probably penetrated the skin allowing some of the blast to enter to the structure by the apparent blast path. The skin looks like it separated as a panel on the left side with the rivets giving way. While the right side sheared. The pilot may have been able to get a bird with that damage home to either bail over his feild or belly in. The blenhiem photo where they hung the MK108 30mm inside of the fuslage and detonated it was never the norm for how the M-Gesch 500m\sec contacted allied aircraft.
The picture of the B17 on the Internet that had the waist area bulged out from the detonation, the 30mm entered through the open gunners window and detonated inside. If you find all of the pictures related to that B17 you will see that the blast damage from all sides bulges outward. If the round had struck the fuslage and detonated, blast damage woud have been focused in a path away from the detonation point like with the spitfire skin in the YouTube video.
There are some B17 damage photes out there where the blast removes about a 3-5 foot area of aluminum skin becasue the round exploded on contact with the surface. Some photos show the flap or aleron assembly blown off. Alot of 30mm damage photos show the damage consistant with attacking from the rear 180 cone of approch. It was never consistant if the detonation would penetrate the structure or damage the surface. This would be consistant with 500m\sec intitial velocity and how close the round was fired. I think that spitfire test the round was fired from realtively close with a shallow angle of contact. I wonder if they performed testing at contact angles closer to 90 degrees and if the RAF report can be found.
The rational behind the Mineshell was even the explosion at skin contact would be structuraly damaging and did not need to penetrate like with an API or SAPI. Neither the 3 cm M-Gesch. 108 Ausf.A m. Zerl. or 3 cm M-Gesch. L.spur m. Zerl.(day tracer) / 3 cm M-Gesch. .Gl.spur m. Zerl.(night tracer) have the duplex time delayed contact detonator. They both used the ZZ1589 B contact detonator. Penetration will be solely a factor of the distance of travel, angle of contact, time of firing pin travel in response to fuze tip casing crush, and or the fuze structure cap perforates the skin at detonation followed by explosive in gassing. D&D 24 sided hit dice anyone?
There is a B17 picture on the internet of a 30mm hit on the right hand top elevator seam which subsiquently the blast was channeled/reflected into the rear gunner position effectively removing it from the bomber.
Depending on the angle of contact, contact location and blast reflective\channeling surfaces, or distance of intitial firing at the aircraft, you will get very different damage outcomes. Simply loosing a control surface member or loosing a large area of skin is consistant with what can be expected. At that point, unless your aircraft is a bomber, you should be out of the fight worrying about being able to bail out or get home. Not continuing to perform substandard aerobatics.
As I stated earlier the current damage model is not granular enough to do justice to the 30MM Mineshell.
1.} You loose some small peice and keep performing substandard aerobatics... :headscratch:
2.} kill the pilot... :aok
3.} no damage... :huh
4.} all damage... :airplane:
But, by no means was it always a one shot kill in the real war. Contact with it could reasonably be expected to ruin your day by the RAF testing. 30% destroyed the rest probable or unservicable on landing. At the least 3-5 feet of skin paneling should be gone or turned into origami forceing you to fly funny. You can say it was an All or Nothing experience. If the round contacts your structure and explodes something gets really malformed or busted. Other wise, it missed or low angle deflected off and no go boom.
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Bustr,
Its important to note that the skin provided some structural strength to the wing. Loosing that skin not only ruined the effectiveness of the wing, it made it weaker.
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Depending on the angle of attack and blast vectoring the skin will separate leaving the sub structure reasonably intact.
The final analysis of the British testing was that the probables or unservicables after landing could possibly get home but in a questionable flying state. By the time of the testing they had extensive experience with what pilots could fly home with after damage occured. The airframes are stronger than we give them credit. Even in WW1 as long as too much damage or upper surface fabric was not removed from the wings pilots got their kites home or landed. Airframe designers knew the stresses they were building for in WW2 and were not dummies just becasue they were restricted to slide rules instead of computers.
Pilots simply could not continue to engage in substandard aerbotic displays but, have to make all haste in DDing out of the fight zone for home or a safe area to bail. I've seen 90 degree contact damage photos where the blast punches about a 3foot hole through the rudder or wing with out much damage to anything else. In those cases some skin perforation happend on contact which allowed focused ingassing(instantaious over pressure) of the explosion to act like an instantanious high pressure plasma torch.
You see the same pictures but smaller holes from 20mm. So extrapolating that to the fuslage, yes with a fighter probably a one shot kill of the pilot due to high pressure ingassing(instantaious over pressure) in a small container. A bomber, probably crew member hamburger. But, the shallower the contact angle the more likely you will just skin the airframe along with throwing micro sharpnel around. Most shooting in WW2 was from the rear 180 cone.
The fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, and instantainious over pressure of contact explosions against malliable structures may not be programed into the Mineshell profile in the game. Our current Mineshell damage profile suggests that: Point of Contact - no damage, some damage, all damage. Nor do we see (90degree contact)3foot holes in our wings, or (low angle contact)5foot skinned areas after a detonation. Nor do we see channeling of over pressure gasses from the point of contact by the airframe structure into an adjacent area unexpectadly obliterating it from the aircraft. At the least from point blank to the rear gun position of any bomber we should see that positions structure completely removed from the airframe and the ride along gunner dead.
The statements attributed to the 3 cm M-Gesch that 1 round will kill a fighter and 5 a bomber by Richlen and Rheinmetall-Borsig were from ideal static test results on aliied airframes and after action reports of ideal firing cricumstances. In between everything else happened more often becasue of the general firing position from the 180 degree rear cone. Ideal fighter to fighter is 50m-100m hitting the fuslage at a 90 degree for a full blast penetration. Ideal for a bomber is 5 rounds in the same area in the waist which cuts the fuslage in half. It took two 262 firing at the same time to get the 5 rounds into the waist on a B24 which was cut it in half over germany or 5 rounds from a close by static stand. Shades of the RAF's testing under ideal conditions........