Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Silat on March 20, 2012, 03:59:20 AM
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Tanks shooting planes out of the sky with their main cannons is bs...........
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NO WAY!1!!
You winher, the Germanz did that at Pearl Harbour when those few Dutch fighters upped!1!1!1111 HiperVelocity Tank Ammo and Dar targetting systemz weere already used in teh war!
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don't fly down the barrel of their gun stupid!
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(http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss147/tnelson3_bucket/oscar_the_grouch_meme_rusty_trombone.gif)
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I was a Tanker in the real Army and no tank in the history of the world ever shot down a plane and if it ever did happen I can tell you the tank crew never knew it. If you ever had an opportunity to look through a tanks sight you would see why you can't shoot a plane down.
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Not unheard off...
On page 43 of Otto Carious's book "Tigers in the Mud"
"On the other hand, we had a lot of trouble with Russian fighters. They 'lurched' past us, almost without a break. That's really the way one has to describe that type of flying. My gunner, Unteroffizier Kramer, can take credit for a deed which was probably unparalleled on the Eastern Front. That is, he succeeded in shooting down a Russian fighter with the tank cannon. Of course, he was also helped by chance. This was how it happened. Kramer, upset by the unrelenting nuisance of these guys, elevated his cannon along the approach route. I talked him in. He took a chance and pulled the trigger. On the seco0nd attempt, he hit one of the 'bees' in its wing. The Russian crashed behind us."
(http://photo.goodreads.com/books/1178461028l/796809.jpg)
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Tanks shooting planes out of the sky with their main cannons is bs...........
If by bs you mean beautiful shot I agree. :D
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If it can be done, it will be done.
Why are you even flying that close to the ground anyway? Even the planes with antitank guns can't even penetrate most of them without attacking from the top at a steep angle.
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+ :aok :neener: :neener: :O :x :devil :ahand :furious here kitty kitty kitty :devil :old: :joystick:
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Tanks shooting planes out of the sky with their main cannons is bs...........
Quit thinking about is as tanks shooting planes down.
The tank is tossing up multi-pound blobs of steel/lead/TNT and the planes are flying into them. Quit flying into them, and problem is solved.
I mean, really, since the tank is tossing them out there first, it's really up to the pilot to avoid the collision.
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Planes shooting Tanks out of existance with their main cannons is bs...........
Fixed :aok
Nothing gives me quite a giggle as thinking of the look on the face of an overconfident fighter jock as he explodes. :lol
The smart ones don't strafe at low angles.
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Well, jokes aside, even if it's theoretically possible and if it's been done during the war, it should be extremely difficult: notice how the German tanker says «My gunner [...] can take credit for a deed which was probably unparalleled on the Eastern Front [...] Of course, he was also helped by chance.»
In Aces High it happens too often, and flying close to the ground doesn't have anything to do with that, a fast airplane it's a fast moving target, it's not easy to kill it, especially with a tank main gun (it's different for bombers making bombing runs low and in a straight course, as I saw in AH, but, knowing Silat, he was probably flying a 38). Even a fighter accelerating on a runway shouldn't be an easy target, in real life, even if you put the tank in line with it's path.
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The Typhoon had four 20mm Hispano cannon. The P-47 carried eight .50 cal. machine guns with 400 rounds per gun, and it proved "particularly successful" against transports. The machine guns OCCASIONALLY even caused casualties to tanks and tank crews. The .50 cal. armor-piercing bullets often penetrated the underside of vehicles after ricocheting off the road, or penetrated the exhaust system of the tanks, ricocheting around the interior of the armored hull, killing or wounding the crew and sometimes igniting the fuel supply or detonating ammunition storage. This seemed surprising at first, given the typically heavy armor of German tanks.
So lets talk about how soft Armor is to Bullets in AH. I think tanks should be harder to kill with strafing runs.
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You say it was possible to damage a tank with HE/.50s rounds but want it to be harder to kill tanks with them? :headscratch:
Typo?
But anyways, we don't have "luck" factored into the game and rounds don't ricochet off the ground. It's all or nothing. If it was factored in, you'll have guys saying how come their tank gets damaged but the other guy's doesn't, etc etc.
I think it's fine as is. You can kill a tank with a Il2, Hurri2D, B25H or even the YAK-9T/P39Q if you get a really good hit.
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The Typhoon had four 20mm Hispano cannon. The P-47 carried eight .50 cal. machine guns with 400 rounds per gun, and it proved "particularly successful" against transports. The machine guns OCCASIONALLY even caused casualties to tanks and tank crews. The .50 cal. armor-piercing bullets often penetrated the underside of vehicles after ricocheting off the road, or penetrated the exhaust system of the tanks, ricocheting around the interior of the armored hull, killing or wounding the crew and sometimes igniting the fuel supply or detonating ammunition storage. This seemed surprising at first, given the typically heavy armor of German tanks.
So lets talk about how soft Armor is to Bullets in AH. I think tanks should be harder to kill with strafing runs.
The "ricocheting off the road" fantasy isn't something to stand on. The amount of energy lost when the .50cal FMJ's hit the "road" and the deformation of the projectile would have made that nearly impossible. Perhaps vs a kubelwagon or other such non armored vehicle, but not a tank with enough armor to initially stop a .50cal in the first place.
Penetrating the top armor is a much higher probability with massed AP/FMJ rounds from .50cals, especially if the impact point crosses where the convergence of the guns is set.
I've destroyed a tank ONCE with .50 cals. It happened while I was in a nearly vertical dive in a P47 with all 8 guns blazing and I was able to have a solid string of rounds hit on top of the engine compartment. The Panzer IV H went up in smoke. I was awarded the kill and asked over vox if anyone else had hit that Panzer to soften it up prior to my strafe but no one else even knew it was there. The M18 and M8 both have just enough armor to effectively stop small arms fire and not much else. The impact angle is the only thing that might save the M18 and M8 from .50cals.
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don't fly down the barrel of their gun stupid!
:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
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I also think as a game it's fine as it is. Just that the OP is whining about the occasional main gun kill on a plane.
It's far easier to kill a tank with Aircraft than kill a plane with a tank in this game so the whine from a pilot gets no sympathy from me.
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And pilots didn't magically pop up in the tower after getting shot down, only to hop in a brand new plane 30 seconds later.
Bushes didn't stop tanks in their tracks
Bombers weren't flown in F3 mode
Spitfires didn't shoot down other Spitfires
German squads didn't fly LA7s
CVs didn't park on the shore smothering a base with puffy ack...etc. etc. etc..
So tanks shooting planes out of the sky doesn't seem that strange to me considering this is the intardnet we're talking about.
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Depending on the experience of the tanker, some will snipe you out of the skies if you fly within 1200 of their tank, I'm glad so few can do this because I know how accurate I can be in a Panther..
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Low altitude, shallow dives make it all too easy to take down a plane with the main gun. Come in at a steeper angle that the gun cant elevate to, and make sure your egress isnt low and shallow either.
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For me.............
remove the range icon (if not all icons) when viewing stuff through the main (tank) gun sight.......... should make it a little harder.
also introduce the PTAB for the IL2 (or even also the Yak9B) and harden armour agin 20mm HE rounds if required.
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ive slammed a 75mm hvap into 2 stortchs and a il2 so far, its funny, i love it when they think their invincible,
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Tanks shooting planes out of the sky with their main cannons is bs...........
Hi Silat,
My guess as to what happened is that you weren't the victim of direct fire
from a tank, but went down when a tank purposely fired HE into the
ground in order to kill you with the blast.
It's a quite gamey tactic that was shown to me a couple of years back.
Best regards, Odd
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Given the person who shot ya down, he's an experienced tanker in my book.
I still love your new stilettos Silat, purple with sparkly stuff all over them, sure delerium is jealous :x
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Good reason to bomb them into submission. :D
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I was a Tanker in the real Army and no tank in the history of the world ever shot down a plane and if it ever did happen I can tell you the tank crew never knew it. If you ever had an opportunity to look through a tanks sight you would see why you can't shoot a plane down.
lol the expert has spoken.
I'm not even going to ask ! oh heck I can't help it,,, what real army?
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Don't the M1 Abrams have a "shotgun" shell that was designed to take down low flying helis and buildings?
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ive been shot dont by a tank.. i've also shot down an aircraft whats the big deal :headscratch:
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Don't the M1 Abrams have a "shotgun" shell that was designed to take down low flying helis and buildings?
Yea, they are call canister shells pack with over thousand 9 mm tungsten balls. Very effective in urban war.
I used the whole 10 yards on one tank and had no effects on it. A lot of the time i would focus on the tracks to de-track them and still have no luck.
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M1A2 and A2 SEP have an air engagement mode in the Firecontrol system used mostly with the MPAT round which is the replacement for the Heat round. It is used mostly for low level subsonic AC (Helicopters) The MPAT round has a switchable fuse setting for ground or air (proximity) twist and switch.
The .50 cal rounds that would penetrate tanks top or underbelly would be API (Armor piercing Incendiary Rounds) which were used in abundance but would be hard pressed to penetrate anything over 2 inches of RHA which the Germans used in abundance.
I used .50 cal API rounds with great effect in Iraq on Toyota engine blocks and the like. They are way harder than ball ammo for sure so the distortion to the round on the bounce I think would be minimal at the angle they would have to hit to richocette upward under a tanks so I guess it would be possible to kill or at least disable a tank like that.
As a gunner in an abrams crew you are taught how to engage aircraft with sabot which depending on the aircraft and angle of it's attack it is theoreticaly possible to hit it but would really be a waste of ammo in 99% of cases..
16 years as a tanker in case anyone questions the knowledge
M48A5, M60A3, M1IP, M1A1/A2 qualified Treadhead..
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If it can be done, it will be done.
Why are you even flying that close to the ground anyway? Even the planes with antitank guns can't even penetrate most of them without attacking from the top at a steep angle.
what? you don't need a steep angle for that...
About the main topic: well if ur tank busting you will get the stardard move of those who want to kill ya with their main gun. Then you must simply avoid it. staying low after the pass is a good Idea until you get to a safe distance. If the guy is aiming at you before you do the pass... well THEN you will have to do a steep angle dive. no biggie, just delay your dive a few secs.
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To add on what Raph said, Best way to combat a tank when using tank busting guns is to zoom in on the tank, if its turrets aimed at ya probably not a good idea to come in low and level, I usually line up and zoom then jerk away real quick.
If you are diving straight down on a tank, 99% of the time its not going to shoot back unless its an M4, or unless its angled on a hill, which in any case (and rarely it happens) I've shot down a 47 diving straight down on me.
Even when zooming it doesn't always work, sometimes I get to close before I see the turret then *poof*
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yep but in case ur using a big plane like the IL-2 you won't have the option to jerk the plane real quick, and I do not recommend doing all the vertical moves on it because that makes you a really easy target to flakk fire...
So basically keep the speed way up, point your nose down, rise later on at a safe distance and try again from the best aproach, be patient, all the times I get killed on those cases are because I'm not patient enough and do some stupid move
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In AH, it is no doubt too way too easy for a tank to shoot down aircraft with its main gun. Period. But, just how would HTC code it to make such things harder to do?
So instead those of us who use the Hurricane IID, Mossi FB Mk IV, or other such viable tank killer in the game, are forced to take higher than typical dive angles to avoid the main gun. Not a big deal, really.
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In AH, it is no doubt too way too easy for a tank to shoot down aircraft with its main gun.
Why? If the elevation range is prototypical, the traverse rate, the round ballistic flight, the gunsight view are all right, what exactly are you going to change? Why is it easier? (And don't say icon range info because you can judge range from the gunsight graphics.) If there's a 3 inch shell flying through the air and your plane runs into it, shouldn't bad things happen?
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You guys ever listen to yourselves? It took rapid-fire purpose built guns with sights designed for AAA hundreds and thousands of rounds to
score a hit on an airborne target. Yet apparently Annie Freaking Oakley with her single shot contact fused miracle tank gun can do it
regularly?? I'm not saying it can't be done, but it should be ALOT harder.
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If the cannon in a B25H can kill a tank, a tank should be able to do the same to the B25. I do it a lot just a matter of timing.
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It's a community gameplay problem, if people brought friendly flakkers with them they wouldn't perfect this "timing" and make it all arcadey, but really the community sees no reason to call a flak buddy when they get rid of the plane that easly.
But my point up there was that the plane should not make it easier... My opinion is that if you pay attention and calculate ur moves you will have no problem with main gunners, you will see how quick they quit trying to hit ya when they see that you know what you're doing
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Not even sure why this is being debated, for every 1 aircraft I shoot down with a main gun I get bombed 9 times.
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Not even sure why this is being debated, for every 1 aircraft I shoot down with a main gun I get bombed 9 times.
^^^^^ This :aok
It's still fun to hear them whine about being blown out of the sky though, especially with a crossing shot :aok
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I kill ac all the time with main gun and its fun to do, but honestly the only ones I get are the ones not smart enough to attack at a angle I cant get my main gun on and half of those hit the trees before I shot them. Some never seem to get it because the get shot down over and over again at the same attack angle :t
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I like the trees for my air defense buddy. The same ones that come under main gun fire will often auger and that makes me smile. :D
Not even sure why this is being debated, for every 1 aircraft I shoot down with a main gun I get bombed 9 times.
This also, It's not that easy to defend yourself with a main gun don't whine until you try it.
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First GV people whine about being bombed. Then, they got a break from HiTech lowering the GV icon (which did nothing to help the GVs) to make it harder for air cons to spot them. Now both sides are whining about how easy it is to kill each other. Is there something I am missing hear? :headscratch:
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First GV people whine about being bombed. Then, they got a break from HiTech lowering the GV icon (which did nothing to help the GVs) to make it harder for air cons to spot them. Now both sides are whining about how easy it is to kill each other. Is there something I am missing hear? :headscratch:
Yes.
The difference between hear and here :P
But, otherwise, nothing poignant. :aok
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Even In IL2s Ive been shot down by tanks only a couple of times. If you fly flat you deserve to get whacked but if you come in vertical, and go out vertical, you not only make it almost impossible for them to shoot you down you also get preferred angles on their thin top armor.
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GVers Eyes Only Fighter Jocks look away.
I notice if I take an M4 with the rocket package Aircraft will easily take out the overhead rockets and damage will be listed as turret out. But the Main gun will still be active and I've never had that gun disabled. You still can be killed of course. Don't know if it's a bug but I won't tell. :D
Fun Tank to take down Buildings with 60 rockets if you make it to town. :aok
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I have yet to be shown a real life documented kill, when a plane shooting ground ricocheting bullets killing a MBT.
Where did you read this ?
I've Been a RL tanker 20 years.
its VERY hard to coordinate 3-4 people to 1 aquire target for commander , 2 vector gun by gunner, calculate distance where to shoot, press trigger, probably seeing plane in sight for less than more than 3 seconds and fine adjust sight during that time.
Ive recorded a confirmed Heli kill , using laser rangefinder and target computer at target less than 800 meters stupid to fly high enough for clear shot
The Typhoon had four 20mm Hispano cannon. The P-47 carried eight .50 cal. machine guns with 400 rounds per gun, and it proved "particularly successful" against transports. The machine guns OCCASIONALLY even caused casualties to tanks and tank crews. The .50 cal. armor-piercing bullets often penetrated the underside of vehicles after ricocheting off the road, or penetrated the exhaust system of the tanks, ricocheting around the interior of the armored hull, killing or wounding the crew and sometimes igniting the fuel supply or detonating ammunition storage. This seemed surprising at first, given the typically heavy armor of German tanks.
So lets talk about how soft Armor is to Bullets in AH. I think tanks should be harder to kill with strafing runs.
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I have yet to be shown a real life documented kill, when a plane shooting ground ricocheting bullets killing a MBT.
Where did you read this ?
I've Been a RL tanker 20 years.
its VERY hard to coordinate 3-4 people to 1 aquire target for commander , 2 vector gun by gunner, calculate distance where to shoot, press trigger, probably seeing plane in sight for less than more than 3 seconds and fine adjust sight during that time.
Ive recorded a confirmed Heli kill , using laser rangefinder and target computer at target less than 800 meters stupid to fly high enough for clear shot
of course there is already one account of it in this thread, but some other thread on this board tells of the soviets parking their lend lease Shermans in such a manner as to make the Germans fly higher or risk getting shot down by their main guns and it is noted that the Russian records would probably be hard to find!
that said,, if a range card that floats above the ground can be hit,, then a plane flying in a strait line towards the main gun can also be hit is it lucky? yes, did it happen much in WW2? no ,,,probably for many reasons, tank gunners rarely if ever fired and gave up their positions for a slim chance at hitting a low flying craft! does that mean it was not possible? no,, It is highly possible that a round from a main gun traveling towards an aircraft that is on a parallel but inverse course ot it could be struck by it? absolutely!!! it would be a lot less likely to miss than to hit barring any change in direction of the aircraft! did aircraft frequently fly directly at tanks without any course change and at low level? absolutely not!,, find me any training manual that states this is a good idea!
Bottom line: if you fly low, strait, and level at a gun, ,, expect the round that comes out of it to hit you! tanks win all ho'''es!
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of course there is already one account of it in this thread, but some other thread on this board tells of the soviets parking their lend lease Shermans in such a manner as to make the Germans fly higher or risk getting shot down by their main guns and it is noted that the Russian records would probably be hard to find!
I posted that a year or so ago when this debate first popped up in another thread. It was a Soviet Guard tank regiment of Lend-Lease Shermans and the account was from the commander of the battalion in his book he wrote post-war. He never claimed to have shot down any planes with his tanks but he did clearly state that they did fire at them with their main gun and .50 caliber machine guns.
ack-ack
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if the GVs cant main gun A/C my ground to air K/D would drop substantially... :bolt:
come on i sit in an M4/75 with my gun pointed up shooting planes at 2k out etc... its too much fun
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Not even sure why this is being debated, for every 1 aircraft I shoot down with a main gun I get bombed 9 times.
and whine. :aok
Silat, got main gunned muhaaaa.
side note: 190 series can be main gunned and fly away with an oil hit. :rolleyes:
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Not even sure why this is being debated, for every 1 aircraft I shoot down with a main gun I get bombed 9 times.
The fact that it is barely more difficult than shooting skeet is the reason. The mere fact that a tank gunner can find the inbound aircraft in his main gun is a miracle. That is a product of slaving the TC and the turret together.
Again, it is more of a coding thing than anything. HTC has assigned damage values to projectiles and objects, and if a German 30mm HE hit to the nose of aircraft make them go "puuf", then a 75mm HE is going to do even more regardless of where it came from. I get a kick out of the "if the B25H can kill tanks then tanks should be able to kill aircraft" argument, that is about as :rofl as it gets.
Tanks should be no threat to aircraft. The top mounted AA guns don't do much more than put a few holes in the aircraft, and once in awhile get lucky and deliver a PW, damage to the radiator or oil system, etc. Few things are as gamey and arcade-ish as tanks shooting down aircraft with its main gun. But... nothing is going to change so it is time to button this topic up and move on.
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Even In IL2s Ive been shot down by tanks only a couple of times. If you fly flat you deserve to get whacked but if you come in vertical, and go out vertical, you not only make it almost impossible for them to shoot you down you also get preferred angles on their thin top armor.
^^^^
Pretty much the long and short of it.
Fly down the bore of my main gun and a surprise will come out of it :D
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I have yet to be shown a real life documented kill, when a plane shooting ground ricocheting bullets killing a MBT.
Where did you read this ?
I've Been a RL tanker 20 years.
its VERY hard to coordinate 3-4 people to 1 aquire target for commander , 2 vector gun by gunner, calculate distance where to shoot, press trigger, probably seeing plane in sight for less than more than 3 seconds and fine adjust sight during that time.
Ive recorded a confirmed Heli kill , using laser rangefinder and target computer at target less than 800 meters stupid to fly high enough for clear shot
Here's the link written by an Airforce Historian: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/AAF-H-DDay/index.html
The quote is on page 15.
I see you have killed an aircraft with a tank. :salute and thanks for your years of service.
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I the real world there are dedicated AA units, assigned there maybe not because they want to be there. In the game world(aside from some who follow directions of the armchair generals), the person takes what they want to play in. Most don't go tank hunting with an anit-aircraft gun, so the dedicated AA units aren't there. The tankers use what they have to defend against aircraft....should they not have a chance to shoot back? Is that the issue...that a bombing target actually shot back? The AA guns usually just spawn in response to the jabos.
Guess it's just not fair for the tanks to try to defend themselves.
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The probability of a point detonaiting round 7.5 cm wide hitting an aircraft in flight is so remote. But if you fly straight at a tank I suppose it increases the odds. The glitch I don't like is the fire he in front of me as the ac passes overhead and record a kill.
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dont fly your plane that close to the ground or right up their gun barrel. Attack from a higher angle. problem solved.
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The fact that it is barely more difficult than shooting skeet is the reason. The mere fact that a tank gunner can find the inbound aircraft in his main gun is a miracle. That is a product of slaving the TC and the turret together.
Not necessarily. The couple times I've main gunned planes, I was peering through my main gun sight and saw the aircraft flying toward me just over the trees. Elevated, pop.
Again, it is more of a coding thing than anything. HTC has assigned damage values to projectiles and objects, and if a German 30mm HE hit to the nose of aircraft make them go "puuf", then a 75mm HE is going to do even more regardless of where it came from. I get a kick out of the "if the B25H can kill tanks then tanks should be able to kill aircraft" argument, that is about as :rofl as it gets.
Tanks should be no threat to aircraft. The top mounted AA guns don't do much more than put a few holes in the aircraft, and once in awhile get lucky and deliver a PW, damage to the radiator or oil system, etc. Few things are as gamey and arcade-ish as tanks shooting down aircraft with its main gun. But... nothing is going to change so it is time to button this topic up and move on.
I am dying to know why it is if the aircraft moves into the tank's field of fire the projectile from the tank should not have the ability to hit it.
Wiley.
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Tanks main gun hitting moving air targets in RL would definitely be difficult, unless your these guys haha!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnqUyz3R4sA
Probably not real but cool nonetheless! :O
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Yet apparently Annie Freaking Oakley with her single shot contact fused miracle tank gun
:rofl :rofl
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Tanks shooting planes out of the sky with their main cannons is bs...........
Now if I could only hit the tank with my plane :pray.........now that would be something :banana: