Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: saggs on March 25, 2012, 03:55:51 PM

Title: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: saggs on March 25, 2012, 03:55:51 PM
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Cessna_China_Business_Jets_206365-1.html

Most interesting part IMO

Quote
part of a future plan to potentially build the entire Cessna line of aircraft in China.

Seems the Chinese are continuing to take over the aircraft manufacture business.  This Aviation Industry Corp of China (AVIC) is the same state owned consortium of companies that has already bought Cirrus, TCM and Epic, and is already manufacturing the Cessna 162 in China.

I just hope the quality of Chinese Government built aircraft is better then the Chinese government built automobiles I've seen.  :uhoh
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: CAP1 on March 25, 2012, 08:10:59 PM
i think i saw something about this awhile ago. i was gonna try to buy one of the new skycatchers till i heard they're not being built here. if cessna of all people go there, that would be enough to make me swear off of cessna forever.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: eagl on March 25, 2012, 09:07:41 PM
Remember the line from back to the future, part 3?

"No wonder it doesn't work, see it says here made in Japan"
"What are you talking about Doc, all the best stuff comes from Japan"

They were only talking about a 20-30 year difference.  What is China going to be doing in 30 years?
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: Shuffler on March 26, 2012, 09:35:19 AM
If it says "made in china" steer clear of it.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: B4Buster on March 26, 2012, 10:09:54 AM
Mr. Cessna himself is probably rolling in his grave right now.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: cpxxx on March 26, 2012, 10:10:19 AM
You'll really want to stay away from Boeings then:

http://www.boeing.com/aboutus/international/docs/backgrounders/chinabackgrounder.pdf

Quote
Today, there are nearly 6,000 Boeing airplanes flying throughout the world with parts and assemblies built by China. China has a role on all of Boeing commercial airplane models — 737, 747, 767, 777, and the newest and most innovative airplane, the 787 Dreamliner.
China builds horizontal stabilizers, vertical fins, the aft tail section, doors, wing panels, wire harnesses and other parts on the Next-Generation 737; 747-8 trailing edge wing ribs; and 747-8 horizontal stabilizers, vertical fins, ailerons, spoilers and inboard flaps. China also has an important role on the new 787 Dreamliner, building the rudder, wing-to-body fairing panels, leading edge and panels for the vertical fin, and other composite parts. China is also the first conversion location for the new 747-400 Boeing Converted Freighter. Parts and assemblies are built in China. Conversion, test and certification are performed in China, and airplanes are delivered from Xiamen, China.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: Meatwad on March 26, 2012, 10:23:49 AM
Remember the line from back to the future, part 3?

"No wonder it doesn't work, see it says here made in Japan"
"What are you talking about Doc, all the best stuff comes from Japan"

They were only talking about a 20-30 year difference.  What is China going to be doing in 30 years?


Either continue making cheap garbage with lead paint or hopefully losing a good part of its manufacturing back to the USA
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: MachFly on March 26, 2012, 10:27:54 AM
Yeah they have been building 162s there for a while now.

Cirrus is also owned by China, think they still build them in US though.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: icepac on March 26, 2012, 10:45:12 AM
China does not recognize product liability but you know they will have to have a "storefront" in the US which the F. Lee Bailey's will target.......which will drive prices on chinese made planes to near US made plane prices in short order.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: eagl on March 26, 2012, 10:50:31 AM
Japan didn't pay too much attention to consumer safety standards either, until Nader forced everyone to look at it closely.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: MachFly on March 26, 2012, 11:08:35 AM
China does not recognize product liability but you know they will have to have a "storefront" in the US which the F. Lee Bailey's will target.......which will drive prices on chinese made planes to near US made plane prices in short order.

Most aircraft need to be FAA approved so it should be fine.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: WING47 on March 26, 2012, 10:35:56 PM
NO! :furious :O :bhead :headscratch: :furious
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: eagl on March 27, 2012, 01:04:56 AM
Most aircraft need to be FAA approved so it should be fine.

Actually, just one or two "production standard" aircraft need to be FAA approved.  The rest just need to look similar enough to the certified airframe that nobody takes a second look.

Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: MachFly on March 27, 2012, 11:43:34 AM
Actually, just one or two "production standard" aircraft need to be FAA approved.  The rest just need to look similar enough to the certified airframe that nobody takes a second look.



I actually meant that the type has to be FAA approved (with the exceptions of LSA and experimental). But I did not know that.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: Bodhi on March 27, 2012, 05:52:31 PM
The PMA standard for FAA certified aircraft is reviewed and inspected frequently.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: Karnak on March 27, 2012, 05:58:05 PM
I have been told that you can get whatever quality production you want out of China, from crap to just as good as from the USA or Japan, it is just a matter of how much you want to spend.  If you want quality like you'd get from the USA or Japan, well, it will cost close to what you'd pay in the USA or Japan.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: MachFly on March 27, 2012, 06:27:51 PM
I have been told that you can get whatever quality production you want out of China, from crap to just as good as from the USA or Japan, it is just a matter of how much you want to spend.  If you want quality like you'd get from the USA or Japan, well, it will cost close to what you'd pay in the USA or Japan.

I'm sure you can if they mass produce it that way.
You can't just go to a Honda dealership and ask them for a Civic for a price of an Aston and have them make you one with the same quality. So same thing here, I'm sure you can get a quality Chinese product the problem is that they have to mass produce it that way and if they don't you won't get it.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: CAP1 on March 28, 2012, 03:36:30 PM
I have been told that you can get whatever quality production you want out of China, from crap to just as good as from the USA or Japan, it is just a matter of how much you want to spend.  If you want quality like you'd get from the USA or Japan, well, it will cost close to what you'd pay in the USA or Japan.

 if it costs more, then it will, or could get so close in cost that once you add in the cost of shipping the product back here, it may cost the same or more.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: Shuffler on March 28, 2012, 04:27:18 PM
I have been told that you can get whatever quality production you want out of China, from crap to just as good as from the USA or Japan, it is just a matter of how much you want to spend.  If you want quality like you'd get from the USA or Japan, well, it will cost close to what you'd pay in the USA or Japan.

Good luck with that. Those type companies don't exist over there because they don't have to. No one goes to china for a quality product... they go for the price.

We repair junk from china fairly often. Poor paint, poor construction, holes in the wrong place. Even with the cheap price they paid it ends up costing much more and the product delivered much later than if they had just had it bulit here in the first place.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: Karnak on March 28, 2012, 04:43:17 PM
Good luck with that. Those type companies don't exist over there because they don't have to. No one goes to china for a quality product... they go for the price.

We repair junk from china fairly often. Poor paint, poor construction, holes in the wrong place. Even with the cheap price they paid it ends up costing much more and the product delivered much later than if they had just had it bulit here in the first place.
That was kinda my point.  It costs almost as much to build something right in China as it does here.  China only has a couple of advantages over the US when it comes to costs, labor and lack of environmental/safety regulations.  Chinese goods do have additional shipping costs.  When it comes down to it, wages and regulations only make up a portion of the cost of manufacturing and the higher the quality you are aiming for the lower the percentage they make up.

I recall reading one American textile manufacturer's comment that the price Walmart was demanding he sell his textiles for wasn't doable even if he literally did not pay his employees, as in $0.00/hr.  People focus on wages and Chinese manufacturing as though that is the entire story and it is much more complex than that. An automotive parts manufacturer said that to make it worth it to move manufacturing from the USA to China he had to see at least, IIRC, a 60% reduction in cost due to all of the other problems brought on by such a move and that a 60% reduction was rarely obtainable.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: Rolex on March 28, 2012, 07:02:30 PM
Ocean shipping costs are insignificant compared to trucking costs inside the U.S. It costs way more ship a box of rocks from L.A. to Houston than it does to ship it across the ocean.

I've started importing some products from China. It was a little scary at first, since these transactions are paid up front by the buyer (me). My experience has been good. You have to clearly explain the quality requirements you expect.

I've had a maker tell me prior to shipping that a product didn't meet the quality expectations. We juggled things to other OEM makers and everything shipped on time. They could have shipped the product, but they offered me a choice of a complete refund and an apology instead.

The number of Chinese companies producing quality products is growing every year. You have to know someone or learn where to go. Japanese companies have been building manufacturing facilities there for two decades now. At first, the products were distributed only domestically in China, but the quality has improved dramatically as a newer generation of workers and management have "grown up" being conscious of quality requirements for global sales. The older generation simply didn't care because they grew up in a government-driven environment of communism where they were paid the same regardless of the job or the quality of their work or service.

There's a common joke in China about companies selling to American buyers vs. Japanese buyers. The U.S. buyers take a cursory, 2 second look at a product and say it looks fine, he only cares about the price, while the Japanese buyer spends hours studying and testing the quality and cares less about the price.

Bottom line is that the quality I get is about the same as from the U.S. at about 70% less cost. I have to make some adjustments to products sometimes, but that cost isn't much. I also have less bureaucratic headaches shipping from China than from the U.S. There's just too much U.S. government interference now in my simple transactions. I'm treated like a criminal by the TSA and banks for buying and shipping products from the U.S. I have a choice, so I'm exercising that choice to buy somewhere else. The Chinese government doesn't make me do anything to buy and ship from China. There is no incentive for me to buy from the U.S.

The U.S. dollar has devalued and all these transactions in China are in dollars, so I get an added bonus of another 30% off from the price a couple of years ago.

Anyway, that's my first-hand experience.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: icepac on March 28, 2012, 10:51:21 PM
The hot market is selling american stuff to the chinese who want quality american goods.

In the early 90s we were shipping containers full of used and new watercraft because buying direct from japan was more expensive than buying from america.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: Bodhi on March 29, 2012, 12:42:14 AM
Ocean shipping costs are insignificant compared to trucking costs inside the U.S. It costs way more ship a box of rocks from L.A. to Houston than it does to ship it across the ocean.

I disagree, atleast on the premise that I just shipped a 20 foot seatainer to Brisbane and the total cost of shipment not including packing was roughly $10K.  The funny thing is, instead of loading here in New Orleans, they trucked it to LA and loaded it onto a ship there.  Total cost in the break down for that, $1250.00, that is included in the $10K shipping cost.  Had I insisted on a New Orleans departure, it was another $3K to transit the canal.

It may be different going to mainland China, but my experience has been that the cost of sea shipping is very very high, especially when weight get's up there as a simple cube can only way so much before you start shipping a whole lot of air inside that box.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: Rolex on March 29, 2012, 01:33:29 AM
There are probably differences based on the line used or ports. Just like airline prices for the same distances can be all over the place depending on frequency of flights over a route? It costs me twice as much to fly to Hawaii than it does all the way across the ocean.

I can ship a 20' container of equipment from LA to Tokyo for about $1,800, including all charges except for customs clearance.

Brisbane from LA is about $2,800.

The cost is the same up to the max weight of the container. 10,000 lbs. costs the same as 30,000 lbs.

You must be shipping some high-value, high-tariff items?
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: TheTopBloke on March 29, 2012, 07:18:44 PM
As a pilot in the real world, I find this incredibly disturbing. They wonder why their sky catcher isn't catching on. It's built in China. I had one old timer talk smack about stuff built in China, then wonder why some people wouldn't go near the new sky catchers. I had to remind him, built in China. Oh.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: MachFly on March 29, 2012, 08:10:59 PM
As a pilot in the real world, I find this incredibly disturbing. They wonder why their sky catcher isn't catching on. It's built in China. I had one old timer talk smack about stuff built in China, then wonder why some people wouldn't go near the new sky catchers. I had to remind him, built in China. Oh.

It can't be that bad. After all their Mig-15s are higher quality than Russian.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: Tupac on March 29, 2012, 10:11:57 PM
As a pilot in the real world, I find this incredibly disturbing. They wonder why their sky catcher isn't catching on. It's built in China. I had one old timer talk smack about stuff built in China, then wonder why some people wouldn't go near the new sky catchers. I had to remind him, built in China. Oh.

Ive seen a bunch of skycatchers here at Sun N Fun. I'm fairly impressed.
Title: Re: Cessna wants to build entire line of aircraft in China.
Post by: icepac on March 30, 2012, 09:19:15 AM
Tell Kermit that while he sits on the Napier Sabre, that someone else will be getting a Tempest airworthy before him.