Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wofat on March 30, 2012, 11:29:08 AM
-
Gentle men and lady,
What are your thought on Air Combat Maneuvers (ACM) vs. Situational Awareness (SA)? Pretending that they two diff thing in this context please.
I find SA MUCH more important than ACM. Knowing who is where, at what altitudes and relative speed more value than tricky-dicky plane man new vers. Further more...if I get vulched, ho'd or killed in any way I find 95% reason was letting self be made into a fire solution for sum one. So I just salute them as they earn the kill (vulch, ho etc.). I let them get fire solution on me so they earn salute seem truth!
Hope I make English well. I say SA more important than ACM by far!
What you think? What you experience? Please share.
Thank you,
Wofat :salute
-
Definitely agree with you.
1v1 fights, of course ACM is everything. Sadly, tough to find 1v1s in Main Arena. Most are some sort of horde/furball. This means being aware of everything around you as you make attacks. And being aware of everyting around you means if you attempt to stick to one attack - a pittbull on a bone - some bad guy is going to saddle up on you and send you to the tower. SA demands short leads, snap shots and evasive action.
I've heard of a Russian saying: There are old pilots and bold pilots; never old, bold pilots. I take this to mean those who won't 'let go of the bone' and are easily killed by a wingman.
Boo
-
Gentle men and lady,
What are your thought on Air Combat Maneuvers (ACM) vs. Situational Awareness (SA)? Pretending that they two diff thing in this context please.
I find SA MUCH more important than ACM. Knowing who is where, at what altitudes and relative speed more value than tricky-dicky plane man new vers. Further more...if I get vulched, ho'd or killed in any way I find 95% reason was letting self be made into a fire solution for sum one. So I just salute them as they earn the kill (vulch, ho etc.). I let them get fire solution on me so they earn salute seem truth!
Hope I make English well. I say SA more important than ACM by far!
What you think? What you experience? Please share.
Thank you,
Wofat :salute
I agree. If your SA isn't up to par then you won't get a chance to use those ACM's.
-
I fondly recall encountering two Bf110G-2s flying in very tight formation at about 10,000ft. The #2 ship was about 50ft behind and to the side of the #1 ship and they were holding it beautifully.
I have no idea how they were at ACM because my Mossie killed both of them in the space of one second.
-
Even for a completely theoretical exercise, there really isn't a way to separate the two. They go hand in hand. The best stick and rudder guys in the game also have the best SA. Flying at 20k, only engaging when you have the advantage isn't necessarily demonstrating good SA. Taking off from a capped base isn't really displaying bad SA either. It all depends on what your goals are. If I know damn well that I will get vulched but I take off anyway, does that mean I have bad SA? Not at all. There are a lot of reasons I would do that.
-
In my experience, I use more ACM when my SA goes to crap as I get myself into more situations where drastic ACM are required :cool:
When Im really clicking my SA allows me to get easier kills while remaining out of danger and moving above, outside the reach of my enemy.
SA > ACM for Main Arena fights at least. IMO im at the point my SA is pretty decent but ACM (ie 1v1 fights) I am still working to get on point..yeehaw for DFC! :rock
-
SA is critical to ACM. If you don't know where the bad guy is, it doesn't matter how good you are. SA degrades as more enemies enter the fight. I effectively track about three enemies in a single engagement. After that I loose the picture and it's only a matter of time before I get picked off. The only exception to this is when I come in on top of the horde and can manage to keep the furball below me and engage singles as they climb up.
-
and if we really get into nitpicking, there are different types of "SA" as well. The true situational awareness, when one is watching the immediate surroundings, tracking firends and foes, assessing energy states and so on...
... and the "battle awareness", which extends beyond the icon / dot rendering distance, fed by closely monitoring and interpreting text channels and clipboard data. I'm often amazed about how many players simply fail at the latter one :headscratch:
-
The biggest advances in my capabilities have by far come from improvements in SA. It's the foundation for everything. Without it, you don't know which of your arsenal of ACMs to deploy when.
Wiley.
-
SA.
Without it, you're just driving your a/c. ACM for 1 v 1's because you don't need to worry about anyone other than your single opponent.
From Top Gun:
Charlie: "What were you thinking? you made an aggressive, vertical move and you should have split-S'd"(ACM)
Maverick: "if you think, you die
Viper: "It's better to select zone 5 (full, military speed, afterburner) and escape and save your a/c than to push a bad position (SA)....you made a bad choice".
-
For staying alive, there is little doubt that SA hold more weight than ACM. That is the vast majority of fighter pilots were pack hunters and B&Z specialists.
But the exact opposite is true for which is more import to having fun. Stall fighting in non identical airplanes is the best part of the game for me. :aok so I do it every chance I get. My kill ratio is pretty lousy because of it. :D
-
SA first...... ACM second.
If you don't see them, you can't fight them.
-
SA first...... ACM second.
If you don't see them, you can't fight them.
That's it in a nut shell.... You can be the best 1v1 pilot in the game, aided by the fact that you don't need much situational awareness to duel. However, in the MA, without solid SA skills, you won't see the SOB and never get an opportunity to demonstrate those ACM and aircraft control skills.
-
When I mentioned SA in my previous post, I was referring in large part to awareness of what your opponent is doing. I think in 1v1s, it's paramount to be able to read his E state, what maneuver he's executing and what that means his next one might be, etc. It's a large component of dueling as well as furballing IMO.
Wiley.
-
ACM, over SA.
Yea with good SA you know what your odds of living a fight are, but if when the fight goes down SA doesn't matter anymore ACM will get the job done. Bad ACM pilot just run and people who are lame
-
Wiley and all make very good point.
[One side bar com ent on Bufflo]
So many crazy whine bout bufflo. I find no prob kill bufflo! Here how and why. I attack bufflo where it will be not where it is. I line up on vector his/her crazy turn will place plane at and have bullet waiting! This of course work in all plane. bufflo seem more predictable and thus ez to have bullet waiting as I say rather than get stuck in cannot turn with fest. You see. No fret kill bufflo!
-
you obviously need both but overall I find ACM to be an extension of SA and more difficult.
SA is simply awareness - not only of where and who, but how fast and with how much E and most importantly where you are and in what state. It is the first thing you need to master and no matter how good you are at ACM, with poor SA you are never going to survive long enough to use them.
So sure, ACM is crucial, with without good SA, it goes nowhere.
IRL SA was more important, in this game ACM is more important - but only because we have huge SA aids.
-
You need good ACM to work yourself into a good firing position for the kill.
You need good SA to realize that your opponent just straightened out on a predictable path to help his buddy pick you.
-
It depends on the way you have fun in this game.
For people that are always looking for 1 vs 1, 1 vs 2 fites, ACM is CRITICAL.
For people like me, who have fun killing the most, the better, and not dyieng is critical, SA is essential. When SA fails, then you have to use your ACM to defend your virtual life. The problem here, at least for me is that the most you use your SA, the rustiest your ACM become.
For what I have seen in the MA, and the results he gets , I could say that Greebo is one player that uses both ACM and SA altogether in the same sorties at excellence levels. (I've always seen Greebo in the "red side").
(S)
-
In a large main arena fight, good SA will be what allows you to select the appropriate ACM. So how can the ACM be more important than the process of thought that allows you to determine the correct ACM? SA allows you to see a target, identify its E potential in regards to you. Identify its strengths/weaknesses to your crate. Often times this is done with many targets (both friendly and enemy) at the same time. You get a split second to process that information..then select the correct ACM (one of which is to not engage) and proceed. But if you dont have the situational awareness to correctly process the incoming data, you cannot effectively determine the correct ACM to make. In this scenario, with poor SA you are just yanking your stick after every red dot you see..even applying perfect ACM you can still be shot down by the mob. :bhead
It is different with a 1v1 fight...lets say in the same bird on a co alt merge. In that case, its ACM driven as your only goal is to kill that single fighter in front of you with the same E and same capabilities you have. :joystick:
-
It is different with a 1v1 fight...lets say in the same bird on a co alt merge. In that case, its ACM driven as your only goal is to kill that single fighter in front of you with the same E and same capabilities you have. :joystick:
SA is still required while in the ACM stage. If your 500 ft and dive 1000... over. If your turning low you better know where all the hills, trees, towers, and such are.
-
Yeah man true that.
-
:aok :aok :aok Im with Dot. :joystick: :old: :joystick: :old:
-
Like someone else said, they go hand-in-hand with good SA you can work cons down, and probably not get shot down, but once this fight dwindles to a 2v1 or 1v1, without ACM well....now what? Aswell with ACM, if you have the best 1v1 or even 2v1 skills in the world, if you have bad SA and a third con comes in, poof you're dead...
Just my thoughts :cheers:
:salute
-
SA over ACM, any day of the week.
-
That's it in a nut shell.... You can be the best 1v1 pilot in the game, aided by the fact that you don't need much situational awareness to duel. However, in the MA, without solid SA skills, you won't see the SOB and never get an opportunity to demonstrate those ACM and aircraft control skills.
:cry :rock :frown: :cry :salute
-
SA over ACM. The proof lies with players such as Pacerr and Chalenge. Both players have good SA, but no one has ever accused them of being able to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
-
I would say that it depends on your style.
If you like to mix it up, and get your hands dirty, ACM is a bit more important than SA, because all you NEED in that circumstance is imediate-area SA. That is to say, you just need to watch your six, and make sure you're not getting dragged to a big group of enemies.
However, if your playing to be as effective in a fight as possible, SA is more important, as you can often win fights before they even get started through SA.
-
SA over ACM. The proof lies with players such as Pacerr and Chalenge. Both players have good SA, but no one has ever accused them of being able to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
True Grizz, but how much SA does it actually take to fly like they fly? They enter hostile areas always at least 10k over the highest enemy. Most of the time they only engage enemies who are already busy with other fights. This is why I say the best ACM guys are also the best SA guys. They have so much practice in multiple plane engagements, that their SA skills are far more developed. Every top ACM guy I have ever flown against also has great SA skills. They really go hand in hand. In my mind it is really hard to separate the two. I guess it just goes back to how one chooses to play.
-
SA over ACM, by a long shot.
Of course, it's definitely better to have generous helpings of BOTH, but if I had to weigh them I'd say SA is more important.
At least for the way I fly...
I'm almost always flying by myself and avoid being mixed in with too many friendlies, so it's often a "me against everyone" scenario.
-
SA first...... ACM second.
If you don't see them, you can't fight them.
Most often, if u play alot during peak hours, u will find urself engaged with more than 1 bogie. The above statement is accurate, but I would like to add a little something.
SA and ACM actually go hand in hand. When fighting multiple bogies at once, SA, gives u much more information than u realize, u just have to be able to understand what u are seeing. Being able to "read" and "anticipate" what each bogie IS doing and their POSSIBLE manuevering angles is a skill that hopefully u gain from practicing SA. In turn, once u have an idea about what options are available to ur nmy before, during, and after an engagement, ur knowledge of ACM comes into play. In other words, when "dogfighting" 2 or more, once u "read" the angles of ur nmy or nmies, now u have to decide what ACM u will use. The first con may or may not present u with a shot, lets say he doesnt, well now u evade, BUT ur evasion manuever SHOULD depending on the sitrep present u with 1 of 2 options AFTER his pass. 1 hopefully give u a shot on his extension, or 2 give u a position set for either evading the second cons attack OR pressing an attack on the second con.
Many a times, I have had to make 3 or 4 evasion moves (Defensive ACM) with the intention of each move giving me an option for the next cons merge of either evading or performing and (Offensive) ACM to gain a firing solution on either the first or the second con.
So simply put, I DO NOT believe that 1 is more important than the other. I believe that BOTH are equally important to the pilot in order for him/her to have the greatest chance of success !!!!!
-
SA over ACM. The proof lies with players such as Pacerr and Chalenge. Both players have good SA, but no one has ever accused them of being able to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
FPH Grizz has spoken. :aok :salute
:old: All we need now is FPH Bruv119 to confirm.
-
and if we really get into nitpicking, there are different types of "SA" as well. The true situational awareness, when one is watching the immediate surroundings, tracking firends and foes, assessing energy states and so on...
... and the "battle awareness", which extends beyond the icon / dot rendering distance, fed by closely monitoring and interpreting text channels and clipboard data. I'm often amazed about how many players simply fail at the latter one :headscratch:
LMAO HOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE
-
OH!!!! One last thing ~~~~~~
IRL not that this is, But I TRY to play the game as it is becuase for me it is more enjoyable.... BUT !! IRL ~~~~~~
The squadron commander choses his flight "LEADS" becuase of both his FIGHTING and ACM against ACM knowledge PLUS !!!!! his ability to "___READ___" a given situation BEYOND the point of his immediate environment.
~DS~
aka SDPrymal
-
ACM>SA
AIM>ACM>SA
-
ACM>SA
AIM>ACM>SA
:old: Backwards
-
True Grizz, but how much SA does it actually take to fly like they fly? They enter hostile areas always at least 10k over the highest enemy. Most of the time they only engage enemies who are already busy with other fights. This is why I say the best ACM guys are also the best SA guys. They have so much practice in multiple plane engagements, that their SA skills are far more developed. Every top ACM guy I have ever flown against also has great SA skills. They really go hand in hand. In my mind it is really hard to separate the two. I guess it just goes back to how one chooses to play.
I see what you are saying and I agree, but I think their ability to maintain advantage, as timid as it may seem, is still an indication of quality SA. Anybody can climb forever to a fight and come in with advantage, but it is a matter of being lethal while also staying safe, especially when in general they have no ACM skill. That is proof to me that they know what is going on around them and have managed to be successful without knowing how to actually fight, and with that, I argue that SA is more important.
In addition, SA isn't just knowing what is going on around you, but just as important, the process in deciding what to do with advantage, whom to attack, when to climb, when to turn, when to flee, when to reverse, etc etc. There are a hundred different decisions that can be made in any given sortie, most will lead you to death.
-
ACM>SA
AIM>ACM>SA
I would actually rank it as SA>AIM>ACM
You could argue ACM is greater than AIM and I would agree in a 1v1, but in the MA, aim is more important.
Basically:
In a 1v1: ACM>AIM>SA
Main Arena: SA>AIM>ACM
-
I would actually rank it as SA>AIM>ACM
You could argue ACM is greater than AIM and I would agree in a 1v1, but in the MA, aim is more important.
Basically:
In a 1v1: ACM>AIM>SA
Main Arena: SA>AIM>ACM
FPH Grizz has clarified.
:old: Now just need FPH Bruv to confirm said clarification.
-
I would actually rank it as SA>AIM>ACM
You could argue ACM is greater than AIM and I would agree in a 1v1, but in the MA, aim is more important.
Basically:
In a 1v1: ACM>AIM>SA
Main Arena: SA>AIM>ACM
does not matter how good your ACM or SA is....... without Aim....your all done.
-
does not matter how good your ACM or SA is....... without Aim....your all done.
Lol, well yeah, but I could just as easily say it does not matter how good your aim is, without SA you are done. Just my 2 cents on how the metrics stack up, we are all entitled to our opinions because that's all they are. :rock
-
I'd have to say that I find aim to be huge as well, because it helps preserve my SA and minimizes my ACM requirements.
I don't do the DA thing much at all...
Even in a 1v1, for me it's still SA> ACM, because even beyond the SA involved for that particular fight I'm still looking all over the mplty sky, expecting to see another bad guy coming in. I'm also bringing my map up while I fight anytime an opportunity presents itself, and even scanning text.
The longer a fight lasts, the greater a toll on my SA. Aim helps minimize that tool. I'm not sure I can put aim as greater in importance than ACM, but I can say that my aim allows me to get by with less ACM...
Then again, my use of ACM is probably a large contributor to my ability to improve my aim...
SA first, but AIM and ACM may be almost equal?
-
I usually dont like chatting in conversations like this but this does interest me on some of the opinions you guys have stated.
In my opinion based on how I perform in the MA, I depend more on my Aim and SA rather than ACM.
But I am not bothered to look back through all the posts to read not really sure where you guys are going with it.
If this is a debate on what matters most in a fight/Multiple situation it would be all of the above.
You cant have one and expect to accomplish much without having Aim or SA.
Yes those ACMs may be fancy and keep you alive for some time but if you cant finish your target in the first turn/shot then in my opinion you are done.
:salute
-
I agree with Bone :O :O :O
:D
seriously I fought some guys that I easily out merged and fired many times on them but could not make the kill, he hit and I died.....
or fighting multi cons I can easily track 5+ cons merge with them and get shots on all of them, but I miss more often then not, so I die.....if my aim was as good as my SA fighting and killing a group of 5 or more would be easy peasy. and a daily thing as it is now its a rare thing....
my best is a 5vs1....1>5 :D
although winning a 2vs1 or 3vs1 has gotten more often for me.
my skill set goes like this from best to worst, and skill level equated with size :D
SA-ACM-aim
this totally correlates to how I have always played.
-
If I could shoot I'd be dangerous.
-
I am a strong believer in making SA ( Situational Awareness ) one's absolute top priority, and for them to constantly practice their SA technique ( using Good SA habits/practices )
and note..... noone ever "masters" SA ( Situational Awareness )....... SA is a never ending practice of habit.....
then , my next major question would be, why did everyone who has posted so far, not give any consideration to BFM ( also include gunnery skill with this ,too ) , being more important than ACM
in the past, I had always put SA at the top....... then would continously give repeating lil refresher courses on SA, through the stages of teaching aircraft control, and BFM
I consider E-Management a part of SA
hope this helps
<S>
TC / VlPER
-
What is BFM sir?
-
What is BFM sir?
Bruv Fighting Manuevers. :aok
-
SA and energy management are integral parts of BFM (basic fighter maneuvers) and how to employ it. Google BFM. There are numerous "how to" references available.
-
British Furniture Manufacturers :banana:
-
SA keeps you alive:
long enough to get kills using ACM, survival being secondary, hence allowing SA to be overwhelmed
or
to avoid dying, kills being secondary, hence less need for ACM.
We're all a mix of the above. It's the peter principle at work, "...rise to one's level of incompetence" :noid
-
SA keeps you alive:
long enough to get kills using ACM, survival being secondary, hence allowing SA to be overwhelmed
or
to avoid dying, kills being secondary, hence less need for ACM.
We're all a mix of the above. It's the peter principle at work, "...rise to one's level of incompetence" :noid
Best^
-
all i will say. SA lets you know your odds and lets you stay up. but once that first fight starts ACM is equal to SA by every single molecule. without both you cannot win/kill your enemy
-
What is BFM sir?
Basic Fighter Maneuvers
:salute
-
Gentle men and lady,
What are your thought on Air Combat Maneuvers (ACM) vs. Situational Awareness (SA)? Pretending that they two diff thing in this context please.
I find SA MUCH more important than ACM. Knowing who is where, at what altitudes and relative speed more value than tricky-dicky plane man new vers. Further more...if I get vulched, ho'd or killed in any way I find 95% reason was letting self be made into a fire solution for sum one. So I just salute them as they earn the kill (vulch, ho etc.). I let them get fire solution on me so they earn salute seem truth!
Hope I make English well. I say SA more important than ACM by far!
What you think? What you experience? Please share.
Thank you,
Wofat :salute
In real life SA, i've read over 80% of the pilots shot down WW2, didn't have any idea what hit them. Same like driving down on the highway and changing lanes; watch is your life not a game. But in AH ,I'm paying for fun, entertainment, i don't care also if i get vulched, picked, and ACM offers more fun.
-
I agree with BAR, and would even take it a step further, saying that in a fight ACM is perhaps even MORE important than SA is.
Let me explain why: SA compliments ACM, helping to keep you alive in the long run. Hwever, without ACM, you won't live through the short run, and the long-run becomes irrelevent.
Who cares if you're 10 times more likely to get shot down 5 minutes later if you DO manuver, as long as you survive RIGHT NOW where you're 10.0001 times more likely to be shot down if DON'T manuver.