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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: nrshida on March 31, 2012, 04:03:34 AM

Title: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on March 31, 2012, 04:03:34 AM
Thanks to the efforts of FTJR, we have a copy of the original Ki-84 Pilot's Manual. This was forwarded to him by the museum which now houses the only remaining existing aircraft.

Slight snag, it's completely written in Japanese (obviously).

We are wondering if there are any Japanese speaking (/reading) players, partners of players, associates or aquaintances, colleagues etcetera who would be able to help with a translation.

It would be quite a bit of work, it is 53 pages long including some diagrams.

I can use an OCR program to pull out the text as it is a bit messy. However the online translators are about as useful as you might expect:-



要 作全開
部滑ス 閉
下 油 ル / ェ
薗素 ゴ 五<
< . t . .
如 / ヲ ニ
シ主特操
う 宇キ聾胴琴2云奪 \雲滑 £重墓ぅ
d /` ニ \ だ / 二 聖 ざ
商 ・翼《竿華三琴と
岡荷 r ソ補/ U
; 全蔑茸高テ写> 葦
/ 閏 / 器ニ リ ム メ ニ
d ・ 開葎装 。被厚シ
火揖成器過滑
壁坤ル ・ 事油
前タ D配 : タ
方ン 管冷ン
ニ ク 等却 ク
7 ハ ヨ 器


Results in:-


Oil [ru] under main point work full opening section sliding [su] closing/[e] Sono element [go] five < < . t. 如/[wonishi] main special virtuous space/large house [ki] deaf torso koto 2 云 奪 \ cloud sliding POUND heavily grave d/`[ni] \ is,/two saintly [za] trade wing << the pole bloom three koto and Oka load r Soviet assistant/U; All the 蔑 mushroom high [te] copying > Reed/intercalary/vessel [nirimumeni] d opening 葎 equipment. [ta] D distribution before the suffering thick [shi] fire 揖 forming vessel passing sliding wall 坤 [ru] thing oil: 却 [ku] 7 [hayo] vessel such as [ta] one [n] tube cold [nniku


Hmm. Not so useful.


We thought about breaking the work into sections to minimise the effort if we found more than one volunteer. I'd be more than happy to do the typesetting and cleaning up the diagrams for an English version. Anyone willing and able to help with the translation?





Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Bruv119 on March 31, 2012, 04:11:39 AM
Rolex or Mitsu spring to my mind regarding translations.   Maybe shoot them a PM regarding this thread.   
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: pervert on March 31, 2012, 04:13:09 AM
I read through them shida, its instructons on how to setup a Sony Bravia  :D
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on March 31, 2012, 11:07:49 AM
Thank fellas, will send PMs.

That's good Perv, maybe it will also help me set the timer on my video  :banana:

All help appreciated. Volunteers could also PM me or FTJR if they wish to.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Karnak on March 31, 2012, 11:48:28 AM
Note, "Mitsu" and "Mitsu." are the same person, but I think he no longer had the password when he came back, so the current one is "Mitsu." with the period.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on March 31, 2012, 12:00:47 PM
Ah thank you, I sent the PM to Mitsu no full stop  :uhoh
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Ruah on March 31, 2012, 12:40:46 PM
is that how it was written?

I do a fair bit of translation and work with early 20th c. stuff a fair bit, but it seems a bit weird in the way its broken up.

and yah, the Kamikaze museum has some interesting archives.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: EagleDNY on March 31, 2012, 01:35:15 PM
Just somebody please translate the part about what speeds the flaps can be operated at - and then get the data to Hitech!
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on March 31, 2012, 02:48:38 PM
is that how it was written?

I do a fair bit of translation and work with early 20th c. stuff a fair bit, but it seems a bit weird in the way its broken up.

and yah, the Kamikaze museum has some interesting archives.


Can you help?
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: pipz on March 31, 2012, 03:37:06 PM
I read through them shida, its instructons on how to setup a Sony Bravia  :D

LOL!!!!!!! horrible  :D
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Mitsu. on March 31, 2012, 11:14:29 PM
I can't read it, the letter is broken.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Scherf on April 01, 2012, 01:37:05 AM
The OCR has not given you the correct characters - there are a lot of garbage symbols in there with no meaning.

You'd do better to post scans of the actual pages, especially since 1940s-vintage kanji tend to differ from their modern counterparts.

At least post the first few pages, which will give you some idea of how the docco is broken up, probably no need to translate each and every character.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on April 01, 2012, 01:39:16 AM
Okay, I'll get to work. Hold the phone...
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on April 01, 2012, 02:58:55 AM
First six pages:-

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-1.jpg)

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-2.jpg)

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-3.jpg)

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-4.jpg)

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-5.jpg)

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-6.jpg)

Are they too small?
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Rolex on April 01, 2012, 06:15:29 AM
I see this thread now, thanks to nrshida's PM. I'll try to help with things if I have some time - a commodity I have a limited supply of right now.   ;)

The second page is upside down but we can invert it after saving it. Not a big thing.

We can also Ctrl + to zoom in, but some of the characters get fuzzy doing that. As our good friend Scherf says, the old kanji is different and seeing the strokes of a kanji is important. (Trivia time: You look up Kanji in dictionaries by counting the number of strokes comprising the kanji, plus some other things like radicals, but the stroke count is important.)

I'm sure Mitsu san will help us with any mistakes. Onegaishimasu...
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on April 01, 2012, 06:28:52 AM
Yes I apologise I was in a hurry. I know it is upside down, I can read some of the Kanji.

I'll try again with a bigger resolution.

Just give me a few hours.  :old:
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on April 01, 2012, 08:48:23 AM
How's this?:-

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-1_1.jpg)

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-2_1.jpg)

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-3_1.jpg)

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-4_1.jpg)

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-5_1.jpg)

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/Ki-84-6_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Midway on April 01, 2012, 09:10:45 AM
I see this thread now, thanks to nrshida's PM. I'll try to help with things if I have some time - a commodity I have a limited supply of right now.   ;)

The second page is upside down but we can invert it after saving it. Not a big thing.

We can also Ctrl + to zoom in, but some of the characters get fuzzy doing that. As our good friend Scherf says, the old kanji is different and seeing the strokes of a kanji is important. (Trivia time: You look up Kanji in dictionaries by counting the number of strokes comprising the kanji, plus some other things like radicals, but the stroke count is important.)

I'm sure Mitsu san will help us with any mistakes. Onegaishimasu...

Interesting.  So Kanji is in part based on numbers/counting.  :headscratch: An alphabet that incorporates math.... interesting indeed.  :aok
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on April 01, 2012, 09:34:25 AM
Kanji is basically pictograms Midway, which is much easier if you're like me and you have syDplexpia.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Midway on April 01, 2012, 09:37:59 AM
Kanji is basically pictograms Midway, which is much easier if you're like me and you have syDplexpia.


 :headscratch: According to wiki: A pictogram is an ideogram that conveys its meaning through its pictorial resemblance to a physical object. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictogram

Odd, because Kanji pictograms do not seem to resemble any physical object I can see... looks like just a bunch of lines, dots, and curves. :headscratch:
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on April 01, 2012, 09:41:16 AM
They are abstractions. Look at this Kanji, which can mean tree:- 木

Now look at this one which can mean woods or forest:- 森

Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Midway on April 01, 2012, 09:41:47 AM
They are abstractions. Look at this Kanji, which can mean tree:- 木

Now look at this one which can mean woods or forest:- 森



Very interesting. :)
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Karnak on April 01, 2012, 10:38:30 AM
The Japanese have three writing systems, Kanji, Hiragana and Katagana.  Two of them are pictographic where each character represents a full word and the third is syllabetic where each character represents a syllable.  The simple looking characters are part of the syllabetic system.  Keep in mind that the characters in pictographic writing systems rarely resemble the picture of what they are as time has morphed them into something easier to write.

One of the things that held back translation of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs until the Rosseta Stone revealed the secret was that they were so complex in appearance that everybody assumed they were pictographic with each symbol being a word, but in fact it was a syllabetic writing system in which each character was overly detailed.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Rolex on April 01, 2012, 04:39:09 PM
Those scans are great, nrshida.  :salute

(Actually, sometimes a Japanese word can come from a combined kanji and hiragana. Hiragana and katakana are syllabic, kanji is the only pictographic. Japanese kanji is derived from Chinese kanji, but there are significant differences. A Japanese kanji has two "readings" or pronunciations - one Japanese and one Chinese reading. It's no fun making things simple when you can make them complex and confusing. ;) )
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: ink on April 01, 2012, 05:04:28 PM
funny story about kanji.....

long ago I worked at a tattoo shop, and in that shop was sheet of Kanji symbols....

with the American counter part....

so it listed the English Alphabet with a Kanji equivalent............

people would write out there names with the symbols thinking they were spelling out their names in Chinese.... :rofl :rofl :rofl

some Chinese guys came into the shop selling Kanji and saw the sheet of "Kanji Alphabet" and started laughing..... I asked what was up? he explained how it works.. :rofl :rofl :rofl..I immediately tore down the sheet... :uhoh


 
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Mitsu. on April 01, 2012, 06:49:22 PM
nrshida, thanks. I can read it with no problem. :)
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: PFactorDave on April 01, 2012, 07:15:16 PM
This thread is very interesting to me.  I would love it if you guys that are transalating post the translations in this thread too.   :salute
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: HighTone on April 01, 2012, 08:00:00 PM
This thread is very interesting to me.  I would love it if you guys that are transalating post the translations in this thread too.   :salute


Same here. I would love to know what it says.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Midway on April 01, 2012, 08:53:17 PM
nrshida, thanks. I can read it with no problem. :)

 :x :banana:
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Ruah on April 01, 2012, 09:45:00 PM
much better

it is an interesting document for sure and is a complete manual on the plane including basic maintenance, takeoff, night time flight, and on and on.  Obviously there is the table of contents and the intro page (which is written in a style that is simply not used anymore - but - is also more grammatically 'correct' then contemporary style). It was published in Showa 19 (1944) Jan 3rd and is clearly marked as secret.

There are some issues to get clear here - first off - translation is not really a 1 to 1 exchange but an interpretive process.  This is less obvious in technical guides like this and quite obvious in more literary works - but it is still there.  This means that a cooperative effort will create a slightly disjointed translation with multiple voices.  In the translation world, this is overcome with heavy editorial oversight and in the end actually increases the workload a lot (depending) as the editor has to take the translation of someone and alter it to standardize it to their voice - which sometimes causes anger (translators become attached to their work).  So, while I am more then happy to work on this (and would love a copy in the original anyway) I want to know the division of labor and who ultimately has editorial oversight.

Sorry if that all sounds a bit serious, but as someone who does translations professionally (I work with Taisho political philosophy mostly) it is important that these sorts of things are set before we start so there is no bs down the road.  And since I am actually quite busy with some 文明開化 translations (Meiji journal on modernization) I just want to make sure that this is not some political time sink. And i am sure we all agree on this.

Anyway, definitely interested to work on promoting the appreciation for such a fantastic airplane.

Regardless of how you want to do this, would love to get a copy of the document if it is ok.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Mitsu. on April 01, 2012, 10:50:17 PM
It's interesting to me too. I didn't read this manual I've ever seen.  ;)

I hope Mr. nrshida will scan more pages of it.  :)

The translation of old sentence is pretty hard work like making a sound pack :D, but I try to translate it for you. :)

Thanks,
Mitsu.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Scherf on April 02, 2012, 06:48:22 AM
In terms of "flap deployment speed", might be in reply #16, first scan, second row down, 9th from left: ="flying limits."
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on April 02, 2012, 11:52:43 AM
You can thank FTJR for the procurement of this manual from Japan as it was his initiative.

My goal is to produce an English version of this document, re-typeset for English and perhaps redrawing the diagrams to accommodate the new English text also.

If Ruah San and Mitsu San are willing to work with me I am willing to refine the translation into the target language and the layout & diagrams. I would not find this tiresome as I am a big fan of the Hayate and need to learn these skills for my work anyway.

I understand about the difficulties of this process as have cooperated in the translation of an Italian book into English already and have proof read several PhD Theses as well. As long as we can agree on the common goal I think the work might be fun and interesting.

I don't mind so much who is in charge, but suggest we break the manual down into sections for efficiency (you Gentlemen choose between yourselves the chapters you want to tackle) and then you can check read each others work if necessary / willing. I will coordinate with you both about the precise meaning in English. I have some Westland documents I would use from the same period for inspiration and to ensure that the English would be period also.

It would be nice to contribute something to the World War 2 aviation enthusiast's community since this document is presently inaccessible to so many.


Please let me know what you think of the project idea, I will send both Ruah San and Mitsu San the original PDF anyway. Perhaps if we can work together we could publish the progress as we go along (if HTC has no objections). Perhaps some interesting facts about the Nakajima Hayate might be revealed.




Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: EagleDNY on April 02, 2012, 06:55:21 PM
Thanks to everyone working this project - the Hayate is one of my favorite rides and I would definitely be interested in reading a translation of the pilots manual.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Scherf on April 04, 2012, 08:28:33 AM
Any of you other guys think the pages in the scan are out of order? Around page 30/53, seems to go 16, 15, 14 as you scroll down...
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Scherf on April 04, 2012, 08:41:14 AM
Seems a wee bit of a mish-mash in any case. Only reference to flaps I can find is at 250 km/h.

No idea if that puts the cat among the pigeons, don't fly the thing online...
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: PFactorDave on April 04, 2012, 08:52:25 AM
Seems a wee bit of a mish-mash in any case. Only reference to flaps I can find is at 250 km/h.

No idea if that puts the cat among the pigeons, don't fly the thing online...

Well that is about 155mph, which I think is close to where the second notch of flaps comes out now.  Wonder if that is a reference to "landing flaps"?
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Ruah on April 05, 2012, 10:12:36 AM
it is out of order, but the page numbers are on the page, so I have printed it out to look through it.

The writing style is very dated and difficult to read (a lot of the technical words have been romanticized (katakana) since this time, so a lot of odd words).  With this and the one flying example left, you could restore it (it is the dream to have one of the restoration groups in the US purchase it back and restore it) and fly it.  It has been mistreated a bit since the 70s, bit it is in better condition then a lot of the Japanese planes.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: EagleDNY on April 07, 2012, 02:06:53 PM
Any more translations available yet?  I am still really interested in what the actual Ki-84 pilots manual has to say about it.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on April 12, 2012, 01:50:09 PM
The work has begun but it will be a very slow process. Please be patient and we will try to include you as the work progresses.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: PFactorDave on May 13, 2012, 01:57:36 PM
The work has begun but it will be a very slow process. Please be patient and we will try to include you as the work progresses.

I'm curious if there has been any progress made?  Any tid bits to share?   :D
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Ruah on May 14, 2012, 03:33:02 AM
I have translated a bit of it, but I will not be done with it till late august - I have a 25k word dissertation (on Taisho Democracy) to finish before then.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: olswampy on May 18, 2012, 01:43:28 AM
 :x Shida Rules  :x

This is the coolest thing to happen since.... since the.. well its cool  :cheers:

The ki needs to be respected ! ... and feared  :devil
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on May 18, 2012, 02:13:32 AM
Alas I am unable to participate in the translation process. I have merely tried to coordinate. FTJR secured the original copy, Mistu, Ruah, Scherf & Rolex have full copies and may be able to translate but they are naturally very busy with their own work too. I propose to format the finished translation into a period-looking document, probably using the Westland Whirlwind Pilot's Manual as a template. If we make a good job perhaps we can send a copy back to the Tokko Heiwa Kinen-kan Museum in Japan.


Hopefully some concrete technical information will emerge and be useful to AH  :banana:

 :salute
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: ink on May 18, 2012, 03:09:47 AM
:x Shida Rules  :x

This is the coolest thing to happen since.... since the.. well its cool  :cheers:

The ki needs to be respected ! ... and feared  :devil

it most certainly is :cheers:
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: vafiii on May 18, 2012, 06:13:10 PM
I'm not totally fluent in Japanese but I'm quite sure Page 3 is a recipe for Miso Soup. And page 4 lists a procedure for ramming your plane into an enemy carrier.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Karnak on May 18, 2012, 08:31:57 PM
I'm not totally fluent in Japanese but I'm quite sure Page 3 is a recipe for Miso Soup. And page 4 lists a procedure for ramming your plane into an enemy carrier.
The Ki-84 was not used for kamikaze attacks.  It was too valuable as a competitive fighter to waste that way.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: PFactorDave on May 18, 2012, 09:21:17 PM
The Ki-84 was not used for kamikaze attacks.  It was too valuable as a competitive fighter to waste that way.

Precisely...

But he might be right about the soup recipe...   :D
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Mitsu on May 18, 2012, 10:01:04 PM
Currently I'm working hard for new sound major update.
I'll look for it again when my crappy sound is out.  :salute

Thanks,
Mitsu
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: PFactorDave on May 18, 2012, 10:08:38 PM
Currently I'm working hard for new sound major update.
I'll look for it again when my crappy sound is out.  :salute

Thanks,
Mitsu


 :salute

I have no idea what you just said...   :D
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: ink on May 18, 2012, 10:32:32 PM
The Ki-84 was not used for kamikaze attacks.  It was too valuable as a competitive fighter to waste that way.

yup :aok

they were used as Kamikaze escorts...and Bomber attackers.....I believe that was there main role, Bomber intercept.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Ruah on May 19, 2012, 12:10:27 AM
I was used to escort kamikaze planes to the ships - more experienced pilots would protect the student pilots.

As for the translation, I will have it done late august - till then i am translating quite a few other things that are equally convoluted.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: tunnelrat on June 05, 2012, 01:00:26 PM
The Ki-84 was not used for kamikaze attacks.  It was too valuable as a competitive fighter to waste that way.

Incorrect.

http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/kamikaze/monuments/miyakonojo/index.htm

Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Gianlupo on June 12, 2012, 09:23:23 AM
Definitely interested in the outcome of your efforts guys! Ki-84 was my favourite ride, I'd love to read the original POH, sooner or later; please, keep us posted with your progresses!  :salute
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: busa on June 12, 2012, 02:45:12 PM
Hello, this is busa01.

I am somewhat busy therefore the submission process of the skins of AH is changing now.
When it is completed, I may also be able to help this work.

Incidentally, flight performance of Ki84 of AH is based on this pilot handbook.

And probably for you, there is an unexpected thing.
You had read a part of this pilot handbook.
Because, "INTERMIM REPORT NO.2 (Project No.NAD-25) R.J.Groseclose, Captain, and Air Corps" are the things which translated it.

Thank you read my poor english.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: EagleDNY on October 13, 2012, 05:20:23 PM
Have to bump this a bit because I am interested in seeing if there has been any progress made on the translations.

Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on November 01, 2012, 09:51:51 PM
No updates yet. Ruah / Busa were recently enquiring about the genealogy of the document because apparently there is another version.

I'm especially interested in the information pertaining to the flaps, one book suggests there was a third setting of 53 degrees for landing but I cannot verify this in other literature and can find no photos of flaps deployed beyond 35 degrees, not that there are that many pictures of the Hayate in the first place.



Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Ruah on November 02, 2012, 06:36:41 PM
Yah, I was working on the trans when busa wrote to me about the version shida posted.

I have been working on it but wanted to go easy since I know shida has had more important things to do.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: EagleDNY on November 03, 2012, 12:58:02 PM
Glad people are still working on this (as time allows).  I fly the Ki-84 a lot and would love to read the actual manual for it.

That said, the US did capture one and do testing on it.   Does anyone have a link to the report or a copy of it?   
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Ruah on November 04, 2012, 06:24:09 PM
that report is available online and that particular plane is the only surviving example of the KI-84 left today.  Noteworthy is that it was repaired after capture and the tests used high octane fuel.  The poor testing methods of the Japanese towards the end of the war and the relative lack of concrete information is a large reason why the KI 84 is sometimes said to be modeled incorrectly - namely that it was a fair bit faster and a bit more durable in the dive as it is modeled in AH.  Thankfully though we do get those amazing butterfly flaps.

It was actually flying well into the 70s/80s when it was sold to a Japanese museum and has been moved around Japan since then.  It currently lives in the Kamikaze museum in Chiran.  That KI 84 has been mistreated by the Japanese museum owners really, it spent awhile outside as a display, its wings were cut and re-assembled badly at one point. . . really a great shame.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Scherf on November 21, 2012, 08:31:55 AM
Glad people are still working on this (as time allows).  I fly the Ki-84 a lot and would love to read the actual manual for it.

That said, the US did capture one and do testing on it.   Does anyone have a link to the report or a copy of it?   

This one?

http://www.flight-manuals.com/kihaf.html
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: EagleDNY on November 22, 2012, 11:38:41 AM
This one?

http://www.flight-manuals.com/kihaf.html

That looks like it!  Thanks.  It should be an interesting read.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on November 22, 2012, 02:28:30 PM
Awww $15  :cry
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Scherf on November 28, 2012, 03:25:50 PM
I suppose you guys have all seen this? Sorry if I'm going over old ground - is this the one with US fuel performance figures?

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Ki-84-156A.pdf
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on November 28, 2012, 03:30:05 PM
No I had not seen that, and I can report that the armour plate is clearly missing from my HTC Nakajima  :mad:

Which way to the bugs section?  :old:

Thank you Scherf, for posting that  :salute
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Scherf on November 28, 2012, 04:44:47 PM
No worries.

(BTW, from the other thread, I don't ride a motorcycle, but I'd just seen that slogan on the front of an enormous Volvo tractor-trailer.)
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on November 28, 2012, 06:41:39 PM
(BTW, from the other thread, I don't ride a motorcycle,

It's probably for the best, with all those Volvos around!  :old:
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: Scherf on November 28, 2012, 06:53:29 PM
Heheheh, that one in particular was gigantic.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: 2bighorn on December 09, 2012, 05:30:05 PM
I suppose you guys have all seen this? Sorry if I'm going over old ground - is this the one with US fuel performance figures?

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Ki-84-156A.pdf

US tests were conducted with 92 octane fuel.  Although in limited supply, Japanese did have 92 avgas during Frank's service.

100 avgas wouldn't change much either, since there's no evidence that test aircraft was modified in a way that would increase performance due to better fuel.


So, why such a performance difference with AH Frank?  Probably because AH numbers are from Japanese manuals based on performance numbers of pre-production aircraft.

Since AH is not simulating build quality nor supply shortages, Frank's performance should be adjusted to more reasonable production aircraft figures.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: JUGgler on December 10, 2012, 11:33:02 PM
US tests were conducted with 92 octane fuel.  Although in limited supply, Japanese did have 92 avgas during Frank's service.

100 avgas wouldn't change much either, since there's no evidence that test aircraft was modified in a way that would increase performance due to better fuel.


So, why such a performance difference with AH Frank?  Probably because AH numbers are from Japanese manuals based on performance numbers of pre-production aircraft.

Since AH is not simulating build quality nor supply shortages, Frank's performance should be adjusted to more reasonable production aircraft figures.  


This would promote much crying I suspect, but I agree  :cheers:



JUGgler
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on December 11, 2012, 03:42:44 AM
Unfortunately we do not have the version in Aces High that the US tested. That version already had some improvements to both engine and airframe. Emergency production versions aside, we have the 'poorest' performer (although there's not much in it).

As far as I'm aware higher octane fuel will improve the power output up to the point where timing and compression become an issue. There is no evidence that the US altered the engines but the performance exceeds the figures given by Nakajima.



Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: 2bighorn on December 11, 2012, 01:04:31 PM
Unfortunately we do not have the version in Aces High that the US tested.

We don't have a version Japanese tested either, which was pre-production aircraft.

As far as I'm aware higher octane fuel will improve the power output up to the point where timing and compression become an issue.

It won't, because there's no difference between low and high octane fuel in terms of energy. The only difference is anti-knocking capability.
You have to modify power plant to benefit from use of higher octane fuel, e.g. increase of manifold pressure...

Besides, in US test, 92 octane fuel was used (not 100 nor 120). True, towards the end of war, 92 octane was in short supply, but so was any type of fuel Japanese used.


There is no evidence that the US altered the engines but the performance exceeds the figures given by Nakajima.

Yes, by quite a margin. We also know why.

Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on December 11, 2012, 02:08:41 PM
We don't have a version Japanese tested either, which was pre-production aircraft.

We do however have Nakajima's output and weight figures for all of the versions.


It won't, because there's no difference between low and high octane fuel in terms of energy. The only difference is anti-knocking capability.
You have to modify power plant to benefit from use of higher octane fuel, e.g. increase of manifold pressure...

Yes, but that assumes the engine was designed for a lower octane fuel but I don't think that is the case. I believe the American fuel simply allowed the engine to approach its maximum performance.


Yes, by quite a margin. We also know why.

I'm a bit confused as to your point Bighorn, you are saying the pair of aircraft tested in the Philippines had their engines modified by the Americans?



Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: 2bighorn on December 11, 2012, 02:50:53 PM
Yes, but that assumes the engine was designed for a lower octane fuel but I don't think that is the case. I believe the American fuel simply allowed the engine to approach its maximum performance.

The engine was designed to use Japanese fuel they had at the time. The US tests were conducted with 92 octane fuel, Japanese had 92 octane fuel and they used it too.

I'm a bit confused as to your point Bighorn, you are saying the pair of aircraft tested in the Philippines had their engines modified by the Americans?

My statement was in regard to difference in performance figures, nothing else.


Now, what I'd like to see, if we have Ki-84-Ia in game, I'd like it to perform as Ki-84-Ia and not as Ki-84-a/b.

We should at least account for performance changes due to thrust augmentation which was good for 10mph in speed increase.
That is, our AH Frank should hit 400mph.


On the other hand, we have performance figures for Ki-84-Ia with Ha-45 type 21 from US tests. We should use those, because they are more reliable figures than figures used now for AH Frank (no guesswork needed).

  
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on December 11, 2012, 03:11:14 PM
Now, what I'd like to see, if we have Ki-84-Ia in game, I'd like it to perform as Ki-84-Ia and not as Ki-84-a/b.

I don't know what a Ki-84-a/b is nor the thrust augmentation you refer to. Do you mean the different exhaust arrangements?


Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: 2bighorn on December 11, 2012, 03:38:52 PM
I don't know what a Ki-84-a/b is

Ki-84-a was prototype version. The same version official performance numbers are from. Ki-84-b was in-service trial version.


nor the thrust augmentation you refer to. Do you mean the different exhaust arrangements?

Yes, thrust augmentation due to individual exhaust stacks
Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: nrshida on December 12, 2012, 09:25:53 PM
I find the Western nomenclature slightly confusing and misleading and don't use it myself save for when posting information on here. I have seen the pre-production / trial aircraft referred to as a but not b in the literature I have but may have missed it / filtered it out. I have not seen a complete flight test equivalent to the US flight test made by the Japanese on any of the pre-production / trial prototypes. If you have such a thing would you please share it?

I have also been unable to find data which quantifies the thrust generated by the production aircraft's exhaust arrangement, if any. I know there were several formats of individual exits until the layout was settled on but do not think this was primarily intended to increase exhaust thrust but may have indeed been a side effect.

When I researched the Hayate (fairly deeply), about a year or so ago, I concluded based on horsepower and weights that we have what we can call the Ki-84-Ia Early Production version. This version uses the Ha-45-11 engine. This was neither a pre-production prototype nor a trial version, but the first standard production unit. The versions tested (by the TIAU) in the Philippines (two aircraft) were both Late Production Ki-84-Ia however, which had slightly more horsepower (Ha-45-21) and slightly less weight. The 21 was arguably the best Homare engine. Determining the point for the change in airframe numbers on the production line is rather difficult but the only surviving Ki-84 is one of these two with the Nakajima serial number 1446. This type was the basis for what some call the Ki-84-Ib, the Otsu, four cannon version, however we know the tested versions are Ko (2 cannon only) because of the gun gas ports in the fuselage and photographs of the instrument panel.

I think what you are 'effectively' asking for is a slightly later version of the Hayate than the one we currently have in the game. This would have approximately 2000 hp compared to our current version approximately 1800 hp. I have also seen some figures suggesting a 40 mph increase in top speed, but remain sceptical. Apart from an increase in top speed, acceleration, climb rate and whining would also increase.


On a slightly different issue, I am hoping that this manual can clear up some ambiguity about the flaps which came up during my research.









Title: Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
Post by: 2bighorn on December 13, 2012, 10:55:12 AM
I think what you are 'effectively' asking for is a slightly later version of the Hayate than the one we currently have in the game. This would have approximately 2000 hp compared to our current version approximately 1800 hp. I have also seen some figures suggesting a 40 mph increase in top speed, but remain sceptical. Apart from an increase in top speed, acceleration, climb rate and whining would also increase.

What I wish (I'm not even asking for) is having AH Ki-84 slightly adjusted given all the data. I'm not asking for Ha-45-21 or 23 engines.

Ki-84-a  Ha-45-11 393mph (prototype)
Ki-84-b  Ha-45-11 388mph (in-service trial)
------------------------------------------------
production versions
Ki-84-Ia Ha-45-11 ? (should be about 398-403mph) 
Ki-84-Ia Ha-45-12 ? (should be about 400-405mph)
Ki-84-Ia Ha-45-21 427mph
Ki-84-Ia Ha-45-23  ? (see bellow)
Ki-84-II Ha-45-23  416mph (Ki-84-Ia Ha-45-23 should be about the same or slightly better)
Ki-84-II Ha-45-25 ?

AH version: Ki-84-Ia Ha-45-11/12 (could be adjusted between 398-405)


On a slightly different issue, I am hoping that this manual can clear up some ambiguity about the flaps which came up during my research.

Would be great having that info.