Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bustr on April 20, 2012, 02:12:22 AM
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Tonight I upped in an A8 with the 4-20mm package and 100% fuel, no drop tank to test out the complaint about it's lack of sportiness. I landed 6 kills and I do not fly the A8. A few nights ago I flew it landing 4 kills. But, It has been years since I flew it last for all I know before this tour. When you burn half of the aux tank you will perceive on boost better performance from the A8. Taking a dropper leaves a ETC 501 rack to drag in the slip stream.
1.) If you are an old AW 190 hand, fly it the same way. But instead of 10k as the basement 7-8k if not too many higher cons. It has not changed.
2.) Always engage from a higher position to take advantage of reaching 400 IA on boost while diving away from the pack unless its all lower than you. Then hit 400 and pick in the pack while never turning.
3.) Always make the most of your single shot and do not turn more than 90 degrees unless enemies are 4k or farther away and only for several seconds. Regaining your perch is more important than chasing a con.
4.) Run out and climb on boost back to a slightly higher position or coalt if the enemy is 4k or farther away. Make sure at level to extend away from the cons.
It is a Mac Truck with a mondo gun package and it's best strength is it's ability to hit 400+- diving and extend away on boost. Sounds some what like FW tacitcs from the real war. Tip and Run is what the British called it. Do any of you old AW players have a copy of the rules for flying the A8? They are relevent to AH.
Here for those who do not speak german. A translated manual to oggel over. You too can be a FW190-A8 Phoobah.
http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/fw190a8.pdf
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Go follow KillnU aka Karma around. He seems to be doing just fine in the A8 :)
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Most experienced pilots can do good in the A8 keeping SA up, that is not the issue.
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with decent SA and tactics even a P40 can land double digits...people complain about the performance of the plane tactics aside.
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with decent SA and tactics even a P40 can land double digits...people complain about the performance of the plane tactics aside.
Agreed. A8 can b&z just fine, or zip through furballs, but if it ever loses its E advantage it's toast against any half-way competent pilot. I have found it the most difficult of the late war planes to succeed in, 1 v 1, and only the early P-40s, of all planes, are worse.
- oldman (still keep trying, though, there has to be a way...)
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I was just trying to give a fair hearing to the wishlist by dhyran concerneing the performance of the A8. I'm not sure what sportiness in an A8 constitiutes. The Hippo Ballerina in Fantasia or Chuck Norris behind the wheel of an 18 wheeler.
I decided to fly it from the impressions I've gotten from reading german action reports. Does sportier mean I should have been able to land 8-10 kills?
I'm also confused by how differently our A8 should handel based on dhyran's description of it's deficiencies. Turning in this game seems to be realtive to how well you can putter around in circles sub-250 while performing substandard aerobatics. Or overshooting by suckering individuals to the edge of sub-250 then going vertical to play stall chicken or horizontal weaving to perform sychronised stall dancing while shooting at each other. Neither proposition is attractive considering the brick like qualities of the A8 at low speeds. I do not think Mr. Tank had those things in mind for his "Butcher Bird".
But, the german pilot did not have unlimited lives. If Mr. Tank had designed the A8 specificaly for a cartoon game 70 years later to excel at low speed substandard airshow areobatics while piu, piu, piuing at other substandard aerobaticists. It would not be the A8 historic facsimile we currently enjoy.
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The A8 we "enjoy" is not historic. It is the heavily armored sturmbock variant, only without the actual durability said armor provides.
Instead we get the most weighted down variant with the least protection.
It's a mix-matched version. It's also not very representative.
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The A8 we "enjoy" is not historic. It is the heavily armored sturmbock variant, only without the actual durability said armor provides.
Instead we get the most weighted down variant with the least protection.
It's a mix-matched version. It's also not very representative.
And this info comes from where?
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Please, not again.
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While the concept of this gesture is sound in mind, in expression it is simply seeing what it wants to see.
You took up a bird, which was supposed to be somewhat manuverable, historically but in your aftermath report you dont even try to turn it once.
I suggest taking it to the dueling arena and having a bit of furball with it for a few days.
This was a pointless exercise and gesture and waste of your time, every other plane can do that fine, even the a6m2 if you "do it right".
If something feels off, or is fishy; then most of the time it is. Intuition is a powerful thing.
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I expect the A8 to be much closer with the A5.
A5 can hold its own vs many planes correctly flown,whereas A8 cant turn or pull up without losing speed faster than all fighters i've met.
Try to pull up fast in the A8 and you stall the darn thing at almost any speed, giving even low powered planes a chance to escape you pullng G's.
This doesn't happen even nearly in the A5.
Pulling up at low speed , flips it around, making a shot at it very hard , but you your lose speed incredible fast doing it, and you don't have any muscles to get away the second time con dives for you, with the acceleration, I dont find the A5 work that way.
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Best way of escaping pesky 51s in A8s is to dive it to the deck and do rolling scissor at 450-500 mph between treetops, it is not unusual to land more kills doing that that fight 1vs1 since A8 energy retention is by far the worst in the game.
All fighters and some bombers out turns you and keeps E MUCH better.
You can give some surprises if you fly with 1/2 tank and 2*20mm, since all planes you fly against regard you as manoeuvrable as a CV, but they know they also win the HO because the bullet drop of German guns, so I set my convergence to 800 when I go into mood to "do you feel lucky, punk ?" HO after countless HO's by most 51s in the area, tired of out rolling them every time.
You lose engine oil from the 1rst bullet always vs buffs so only good option is to do the high 12 attack.
The punch delivered to the buffs is very good and many times you lit up 2 planes each go spraying 20mms into their wings, and snapshots vs fighters not paying attention is, of course easy kills.
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The A8 we "enjoy" is not historic. It is the heavily armored sturmbock variant, only without the actual durability said armor provides.
Instead we get the most weighted down variant with the least protection.
It's a mix-matched version. It's also not very representative.
You've been making this claim for years, yet the recent rash of Fw190A-8 threads has failed to support that claim. Do you have data supporting it?
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Read this thread and decided to up an A8 for a couple sorties.
First sortie was with the 4 x 20mm package, and ended up strafin' a guy on the runway, then encountered a 190D trying to HO, but made quick work of him. Then found a low 109G14, and using the tactics described above, clipped his wings with support from JVnotch in a 262, and got the kill.
Landed, upped again and and this time just took the 2 x 20mm package. Used the same tactics on an FM-2 but actually turned a bit after a while, and chewed him up. An N1K came up, turned his back and one pass with a slight right turn BOOM. RTB'd and that was that.
Both times I dumped the MG ammo.
-INCOMING
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The problem with reading things and then acting is usually there is an subversive instinct to "fulfill prophecies" if you get my meaning.
But otherwise, dumping MG ammo; maybe that makes it right? :D
lulz
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And this info comes from where?
lol was wondering the same thing.
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Both times I dumped the MG ammo.
:rofl
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Those MG's are crap lol
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those mg's are close equivalent to .50 in the a8, in the a5 they a be-be 7.7mm guns, best used at garden-parties.
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I JUST FOUND THESE AGAIN TODAY!!! MUST POST MOAR!!!! GRRAWAARRR!!
(http://www.jtsystems.demon.co.uk/duma/images/cartoons/looserivets/2310001.gif)
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Those MG's are crap lol
Obviously, you've not felt the powuh of the dual 13mm (.50 cal) MG's mounted in a cowling. You'd be very surprised at what they can do, they are highly accurate (flat shooting) and if nothing else you can remain in the fight long after your 20mm/30mm cannons are empty. Even in the 190A-5 with the dual 8mm MG's, do not underestimate the powuh of the cowling mounted MG's. :aok
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Anyone care to take up a 190a8 2gun, drain its cannon pre-flight and see if it performs better then with the 13mm drained? :confused: :lol
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Tourquila,
Other than your intuition, do you have anything in a Hitech convincing real world verifiable source of data sets that can be substituted into his 3D physics engine for the A8? Ive never seen him turn away from verifiabley good math to change his view on his own product. You will either have to convice him his 3D physics engine, then so all aircraft in AH is wrong, or just the subset data that becomes the A8 on our screens. Thats a tall order in either case.
It's easy to cast aspersion on me but, it's his scholorship and research you are really insulting by using me to not have to challenge him to his face sans data in hand. I'm only using the results of his work. Yes it sissored quite well horizontaly but, I had no intention of staying available to the hoard behind me any longer than it took to snap shoot my con and boost out of reach of a loosing scenario. The A8 gives away E like toys from santa's toy bag on christmass.
I have zero interest in the DA. Did all of that when I was payed by my sound card company in the early 90's to play AW to tech support sound problems with that game. Now I couldn't give a rat's hairy bum which anonymous narcasist is which chasing around in circles in a cartoon world. It would be a bit more honest to challenge Hitech directly over his A8 in person rather then snipe him from behind conveinient proxies off handedly. That would be one epic DA challenge worth watching the film.
Check with Baumer on how to accomplish it. His math gave us the 512x512 1Mil=2Pixel gunsight mode.
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hmmm, my mistake, i dumped them thinking they were the 8mm....
... well in any case, helped me focus on the cannon rounds hitting, and kept accuracy up on the runs... ran low on fuel before running out of ammo
-INCOMING
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Any evidence to prove my point?
First of all, the "recent posts" referenced change nothing. They add nothing. It's all been reviewed ad nauseum.
The evidence has been posted thousands of times, and I have posted dozens and dozens of primary sources to back this up in past threads. Threads I KNOW the people "asking" about it have seen and visited before.
I put "asked" in quotes because they are not really asking. They are trying to stir up false controversy.
The weights are there to be seen on the E6B. The weights of the historical A8 variants are there to be found. 4400 is the standard weight of a 4x20mm loadout fully loaded. Guess what ours weighs?
Game. Set. Match.
190A-8 2 guns 100% (169gal): 9360 lbs
190A-8 2 guns noaux% (139gal): 9178 lbs
190A-8 2 guns 0%: 8346 lbs
190A-8 2 guns (noMGAmmo) 100%: 9189 lbs
190A-8 2 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9118 lbs
190A-8 4 guns 100% (169gal): 9682 lbs
190A-8 4 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9304 lbs
190A-8 30mm guns 100% (169gal): 9891 lbs
190A-8 30mm guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9506 lbs
169 gal = 1,014 lbs
1 gal = 6 lbs (per admission by HTC)
30 gal aux tank = 180 lbs
79 gal DT = 474 lbs
950 13mm rounds = 171 lbs
500 20mm rounds = 242 lbs
280 20mm rounds = 136 lbs
110 30mm rounds = 143 lbs
1x 13mm round = 0.18 lbs
1x 20mm round = .485/.486 lbs (in/out)
1x 30mm round = 1.3 lbs
2x MG151/20 plus 280 rounds = 322 lbs
each MG151/20 outboard = 93 lbs
2x 30mm plus 110 rounds = 531 lbs
each 30mm = 194 lbs
There is also a major set of inaccurate weights going on for the outboard 20mms vs the 30mms, as compared to historic kits.
The A8 is no more durable against bombers than the A5. It has a serious glass jaw and takes damage rather easily. It has none of the added armor plates protecting the guns, the oil, the pilot, that the Sturm version had, but it has all the extra weight.
And, no. I will not answer any more rhetorical "What's your source" BS type questions. They have been answered by many in the know so many times it's not funny. The majority of all primary war-time resources on the matter all agree. Our A8 is borked. If you can't accept that you're looking to believe what you want and ignoring facts.
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A-8 4-gun 100% is exactly at the reported A-8 weigths, both A-8 2-gun 100% and the A-8/R2 (A-8 with 30mm guns) are about 70lbs too heavy. A Sturmbock variant weigths ~110kg more than the standard A-8 with weight added from both armor upgrades and the 801TU engine package.
By removing MG 131 and ammo you could offset these weight gains by about 90 kg, this was done for most Sturmbock fighters.
The fuel weight is off though as standard + aux fuel should be 500kg
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Just as a generic observation/question, if I were to take 50%-75% fuel, the 2*20mm option, empty all the guns (including 13mm), would it weigh the same as the a5 and perform similarly?
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Just as a generic observation/question, if I were to take 50%-75% fuel, the 2*20mm option, empty all the guns (including 13mm), would it weigh the same as the a5 and thus perform similarly?
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The A8 is no more durable against bombers than the A5. It has a serious glass jaw and takes damage rather easily. It has none of the added armor plates protecting the guns, the oil, the pilot, that the Sturm version had, but it has all the extra weight.
Go and test it in a custom arena like I did with the dora, come and tell us the results of the comparison test with an A5.
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Just as a generic observation/question, if I were to take 50%-75% fuel, the 2*20mm option, empty all the guns (including 13mm), would it weigh the same as the a5 and perform similarly?
You could easily test that yourself if you care to know the answer.
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Indeed I will, thanks for the wise words :-P hehe
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Just as a generic observation/question, if I were to take 50%-75% fuel, the 2*20mm option, empty all the guns (including 13mm), would it weigh the same as the a5 and perform similarly?
I'll help you out here... the 190A-5 will out perform the 190A-8. The A-5 is faster, climbs better, turns better, and handles better at all speeds. I have not paid much attention to the acceleration differences, but I'd be betting on the 190A-5 being better at that too. The 190A-8 has more options in firepower, and more of it. People discount the 190A-5 for some reason, I think they need to take a closer look at it. They'd be surprised at how it can turn and dance. The dual 20mm and dual 8mm are sufficient enough in terms of firepower, but dont forget each cannon has 250 rounds of 20mm. Impressive.
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I have not paid much attention to the acceleration differences, but I'd be betting on the 190A-5 being better at that too.
If you climb faster you accelerate faster.
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But why is that smoking?
If the A8 has the same airframe and centre of gravity; if you were to make them weigh the same, surely (other then the known aux fuel instability) they would perform the same?
And wouldn't the A8 even more so, given its later war engine?
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MG-FF's are POOP on the A5, so I wouldn't consider it a 4 cannon bird. Only 60 paltry rounds with them too. Other than that I agree with previous posters on the A5.