Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: titanic3 on April 27, 2012, 07:48:16 AM
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In real life, there was no stall buzzer (right?), so how did pilots know they were able to stall?
Likewise, how did they know they weren't pulling the maximum amount of Gs if they were afraid to stall?
Did the plane shake? Did it just snap stall?
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Generally you start feeling buffeting and the center of lift moving back.
However specific aircraft have their own stall characteristics. For example my DA42 does not buffet at all, as your approach the stall it's like normal, normal, normal, stall. But this is a rather rare characteristic.
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There are stall buzzers (vanes) that you can put on your GA aircraft.
Sometimes the airspeed gauge is color-coded, as well, for take-off/flap speed/Vne, etc but I would not bet my life on it.
It is best to know your aircraft's flight characteristics.
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There are stall buzzers (vanes) that you can put on your GA aircraft.
I think he is asking for ways to identify the stall without the buzzer.
Also the stall horn (buzzed) normally turns on as you approach the stall not as soon as the plane stalls.
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I think he is asking for ways to identify the stall without the buzzer.
Also the stall horn (buzzed) normally turns on as you approach the stall not as soon as the plane stalls.
Correct. :aok
I am a better student than I am a teacher.
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In real life, there was no stall buzzer (right?), so how did pilots know they were able to stall?
Likewise, how did they know they weren't pulling the maximum amount of Gs if they were afraid to stall?
Did the plane shake? Did it just snap stall?
The same way pilots today (should) know when they are approaching a stall - know thy airplane.
Case in point, I fly various 172s where the stall horns are generally inoperative. If I cover up the airspeed indicator to simulate a failure (which I've done many times), I don't suddenly fall out of the sky.
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Airframe buffet and the stall horn, in here. In general, you are max performing in your turn when you have a "nibble" of buffet. Loosen up your pull and you are not turning as hard as you can. Pull harder from the nibble and you'll stall - depending on how close you are and how hard you pull.
If you had an AoA gauge you could also tell how close you are to stalling, but I don't think that applies to any of the AH plane set. Remember, planes stall because the wing exceeds the critical AoA. This can happen at any attitude and airspeed.
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Airframe buffet and the stall horn, in here. In general, you are max performing in your turn when you have a "nibble" of buffet. Loosen up your pull and you are not turning as hard as you can. Pull harder from the nibble and you'll stall - depending on how close you are and how hard you pull.
If you had an AoA gauge you could also tell how close you are to stalling, but I don't think that applies to any of the AH plane set. Remember, planes stall because the wing exceeds the critical AoA. This can happen at any attitude and airspeed.
:) I know how they stall in AH. I'm only 20% noob ;).
So basically, planes stall differently in RL, some gently and some abruptly. My question is, what happens to the planes that stall abruptly? Would a newer pilot know what to do so suddenly?
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:) I know how they stall in AH. I'm only 20% noob ;).
So basically, planes stall differently in RL, some gently and some abruptly. My question is, what happens to the planes that stall abruptly? Would a newer pilot know what to do so suddenly?
If the flight instructor does his or her job correctly, during your primary training, you will trained to recognize approaching stalls in st right ahead, power off, st right ahead, full power, climbing turns, full power, and power off climbing turns. ALL general aviation aircraft certified by the FAA as airworthy must have a working stall warning device, which is usually 5 to 8 MPH before stall speed is reached, IAS. This device is checked each year at the aircraft's annual inspection. If it doesn't work, it is grounded until repair, or if it has to be taken to a different repair station for repairs, a temporary Air worthiness, 1 time flight, is issued by a FAA, or their Representative. There are GADO offices around the U.S. and anyone who answers the phone can guide you through the proper procedures, if in doubt.
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All aircraft do not have stall horns.
I have flown 4 that do not
P51d.
Rv8
Piper Cub.
Decathlon.
The P51d I stalled multiple times while dog fighting another mustang. It's really doesn't give much warning, the instructor said he could hear a "growl" in the air scoop just prior to departure. I couldn't hear it. But you could hook it back up in about a 1/4 snap with accelerated stalls.
The Rv8 I have stalled at almost all speeds and all attitudes, Inverted stalls are very interesting. But postive g stalls it gives a very nice tickle/buffet prior to departure.
HiTech
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Have you done cross controlled stalls in your RV8? I did them with a buddy in his RV7....Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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Have you done cross controlled stalls in your RV8? I did them with a buddy in his RV7....Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Yes I have done pretty much everything in the RV except slide it backwards, but I don't care for snaps or spins much in the RV8, the tail seems to buffet fairly hard during both.
HiTech
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My question is, what happens to the planes that stall abruptly? Would a newer pilot know what to do so suddenly?
Most people do their training on forgiving aircraft such as C172s for that exact reason (I didn't :D).
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Rv8
If you really wanted it you could have installed it there without any significant problems, right?
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If you really wanted it you could have installed it there without any significant problems, right?
Yes except most people would install an AOA indicator vs a simple stall horn.
I have always want to fly a plane with an AOA indicator, to see what short field landings were like using it.
HiTech
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Many moons ago when flying Piper Warrior IIs, it would buffet before the stall horn would go. You could always 'feel' it first. The horn told you that you'd stalled. Not that you needed telling by that point :)
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I've found that along with watching the ASI you just feel the slowing of the airframe. Another thing is a lower level of control authority (in other words the controls dont effect the movement of the plane as much as they do while in normal flight, in contrast at higher speeds the controls have more authority which can lead to overcontrolling) also like they said the buffet and if you are at a high enough AoA Ive felt some -G force as the plane starts to fall back and nose over. When you feel those -Gs though your in the stall and at that point its get the nose down to gain airspeed and level the wings then pull out of the dive.
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What are cross controlled stalls?
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What are cross controlled stalls?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBJQLjdC0mA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_control
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What are cross controlled stalls?
Stalling while having left ailerons and right rudder.
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Stalling while having left ailerons and right rudder.
or vice versa
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Yes except most people would install an AOA indicator vs a simple stall horn.
I have always want to fly a plane with an AOA indicator, to see what short field landings were like using it.
HiTech
Yeah I can certainly understand why you'd want a AoA indicator.
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Yes, characteristics of impending/actual stall vary widely by the type of aircraft. Some have a stall warning device - stall horn, rudder shakers, etc. - while others do not. Stall warning devices are meant to give the pilot warning prior to actual stall, either a few mph/knots or a few units AoA prior to the critical AoA.
As mentioned, the controls tend to get mushy, less responsive when you are approaching the critical AoA/stall. If you are trying to maintain level flight, you will find it takes more and more power to hold altitude as the AoA increases.
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In real life, there was no stall buzzer (right?), so how did pilots know they were able to stall?
Not going to read the entire thread, I can tell you from my own experiences that you can feel it in the controls. I can also tell you that stall fights aren't what the real war pilot wanted to get into...
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I don't have a stall horn on the glider I fly (I have never been interested in flying engine planes) but you can tell from sensation, wing buffeting, and finally the yarn falling forward tells you you have stalled. When the wing i about to stall, it lets you know for sure.
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All aircraft do not have stall horns.
I have flown 4 that do not
P51d.
Rv8
Piper Cub.
Decathlon.
The P51d I stalled multiple times while dog fighting another mustang. It's really doesn't give much warning, the instructor said he could hear a "growl" in the air scoop just prior to departure. I couldn't hear it. But you could hook it back up in about a 1/4 snap with accelerated stalls.
The Rv8 I have stalled at almost all speeds and all attitudes, Inverted stalls are very interesting. But postive g stalls it gives a very nice tickle/buffet prior to departure.
HiTech
Federal Aviation Regulation 23.207, regarding stall warning devices. Amended 8-13-69, 8-6-93 and 2-9-96.
Paragraph A- There must be a clear and distinctive stall warning, with the flaps and landing gear in any normal position! (usually a horn device)
B- The stall warning be me furnished either through the inherent aerodynamic qualities of the aircraft or by a DEVICE that will give clearly distinguishable indications under
expected conditions of flight. However, a visual stall warning device that requires the attention of the crew within the cockpit is NOT acceptable by itself.
F- For acrobatic aircraft, an artificial stall warning may be mutable, provided that it is armed automatically during takeoff and rearmed automatically in the approach
configuration.
As you and I both know, there are exceptions to all rules in certain situations. The Ponie you flew was certified under the Restricted category, the J-3 cub was excused by the old CAA in 1949 from this rule. Don't know about the Decathlon, as the ones I have flown had a working stall warning horn. The RV8 is certified under the restricted category. As you already know, to certify a aircraft from the restricted category to a "normal" category takes a lot of money and modifications to the aircraft.(Talk to CAF about carry paying passengers on flights).
Great threads and responses, hope the guy learns something!
For anyone interested, you can go to U.S.gov/FAA/rules for further info.
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Don't know about the Decathlon, as the ones I have flown had a working stall warning horn.
Occasionally I fly a Decathlon as well, it does not have a stall horn.
How do you mute a stall horn without leaving the airplane? I know you can turn off an electrical stall horn but what about the standard?
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B- The stall warning be me furnished either through the inherent aerodynamic qualities of the aircraft or by a DEVICE that will give clearly distinguishable indications under
expected conditions of flight. However, a visual stall warning device that requires the attention of the crew within the cockpit is NOT acceptable by itself.
You may wish to read in detail. The quote above which you sited reads OR BY A DEVICE. Not BY A DEVICE ONLY.
either through the inherent aerodynamic qualities
Means that a buffet is perfectly sufficient as a "STALL WARNING".
I.E. All that is required is the plane to clearly let you know it is going to stall. I.E. A stall horn is not required.
HiTech
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The Westland Whirlwind Pilot's Manual mentions a stall buzzer fitted in the headrest. Fantastic wishlist thread over here Mr. Hitech, sir:- http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,313538.0.html :banana: :lol
Additionally stick shakers were one of the earliest implementations of haptic technology :old:
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post deleted
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Loss of feel through hydraulic control systems perhaps?
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The Westland Whirlwind Pilot's Manual mentions a stall buzzer fitted in the headrest.
That has got to be annoying.
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Loss of feel through hydraulic control systems perhaps?
Oh perhaps your right.
I only have experience with cable and FBW controls.
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Oh perhaps your right.
I only have experience with cable and FBW controls.
Curious. What FBW (I assume that's fly by wire) airplane have you flown?
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Curious. What FBW (I assume that's fly by wire) airplane have you flown?
I'd rather not discuss the specifics on a open forum.
Check PMs.
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Hi Titanic3,
Read through all the posts, however I have a point of view that I haven't yet seen mentioned. When we talk about plane stalling, I'm actually going to focus on the wing, rather than the plane.
Your hand holds the control stick, which is attached to the elevator.
The elevator is what sets the wing angle of attack. I.e. pull up on the stick, elevator pushes the tail down so the nose goes up.
Your wing stalls when your wing angle of attack exceeds its maximum angle.
So if you want to know 'how do pilots know the plane is going to stall', you just need to know:
How far to pull the stick back
You wing will stall at the same angle, whether you are going slow or fast. You can pull the stick back in your hands until the same point with and then the wing will stall.
You don't need an airspeed indicator, you don't need a buzzer, you don't need an AOA meter. Just remember 'about there' and never be tempted to pull past it, unless you deliberately want to stall the wing.
Usually, you will feel a tremor, just before you pull the stick back to 'that point'. This depends on aircraft design of the wing. Compare stalling characteristics of WW2 fighters such as the Spitfire to a FW190.
In tight turns or vertical manouvers such as loops, there is a temptation to try to pull the aircraft through that little bit faster the maneuvers, but if you are at maximum angle of attack, you cant do much more, pull the stick back further and you will just stall. You have that stick in your hands, as long as you don't pull it past maximum AOA point, you wont stall the wing. It just requires discipline to know that you set the position of the stick.
It is hard to compare real life to a computer simulation, because our joysticks don't model control forces. Above around 200MPH, the forces in real life, depending on trim, could physically stop you pulling the stick back enough to hit the wing maximum AOA. You only have so much muscle on your arm and that connected via the stick to the elevator and all the air moving over it.
Obviously, in a computer simulation, at 400 MPH, you can still move your computer joystick all the way back. Sims such as AH, ignore the position of your computer joystick as wishful thinking, because in real life, unless you had the right trim set, there is no way you would have enough muscle to pull the still right back at 500mph in real life.
So for the purposes of Aces High simulation, below 200MPH, find the angle on your computer joystick where the aircraft stalls. As long as you don't pull past that angle, you wont stall the wing.
In Aces High above 200 MPH, it is harder to learn if the angle of your computer joystick is being represented by the same angle of the elevator up the back. If only we could have a computer force feedback mechanism strong enough... that would require some serious hydraulics and we might tear the top of the desk trying to pull up an un-trimmed aircraft up at 400 MPH in desperation!
Just remember, that there is a maximum angle of attack for a wing and as long as you don't try to exceed that angle, you wont stall.
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So if you want to know 'how do pilots know the plane is going to stall', you just need to know:
How far to pull the stick back
This is wrong.
I'll give you an example. If the DA42 I can pull the stick all the way back while being at 60% power (don't even bother trying it at full power) and it will not stall. I've started the maneuver at 8K and 85kts straight and level, and when I got to 13K and at 60° nose up it still does not come close to a stall. When I do the maneuver at 0 power exactly the same way (same stick position) it won't take long to stall.
Your right it's the angle of attack to defines the stall but angle of attack is the angle between the wing's chord line and the relative wind, not a level attitude. So even if I pull the stick all the way to go into a 90° pitch attitude as long as the wind is still going parallel to the wing the plane wont stall. When you don't have enough power to go fast as you pitch up the airplane does not climb the same way and the relative wind does not change therefore increasing your AoA and eventually you will stall.
There is a big difference between angle of attack and pitch attitude.
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I rarely know where the stick is positioned when I am flying. The only time I know is if I am up against the stops. And that typically only happens during 3 point landings, or aerobatics.
It is one of the things that does not translate to the sim world because not many airplanes have a spring return to center. or a detente. Most flying is done by pressure I.E. how much force you feel on the stick , not movement and position.
And as MachFly states. AOA is not directly tied to a stick position, any power change ,cg change , or speed change will change the relationship between position and AOA.
HiTech
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I don't know if anybody mentioned sound. My flight instructor insisted on covering up the Airspeed at some point in my instruction. I think I already knew that you could fly without it but he was trying to make a point. I learned first in a J3 and then a 150 for the x country/radio/instrument stuff. I think it was a great way to learn as you really kept your head out of the cockpit and slips and grass fields were just normal. Sorry for the reminiscence my point was that if your familiar with the airplane (small airplane, have not flown big ones) sound is a huge cue to your airspeed and condition of flight.
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I don't know if anybody mentioned sound. My flight instructor insisted on covering up the Airspeed at some point in my instruction. I think I already knew that you could fly without it but he was trying to make a point. I learned first in a J3 and then a 150 for the x country/radio/instrument stuff. I think it was a great way to learn as you really kept your head out of the cockpit and slips and grass fields were just normal. Sorry for the reminiscence my point was that if your familiar with the airplane (small airplane, have not flown big ones) sound is a huge cue to your airspeed and condition of flight.
Sound? Please explain.
Wing does not produce any sounds and aren't you wearing a headset anyways?
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(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/315825_2198055992343_1275540023_31982659_1171783743_n.jpg)
and I couldn't see outside the airplane. You can definitely tell how fast you are going by sound. (generally) Same thing with road noise on a car - when I approach stall before the buzzer starts going the fences on the top of the wing make a very distinctive whistling noise. You can hear the air moving - put the nose down to 140 knots and listen, then listen at 100 knots. It's a big difference.
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(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/315825_2198055992343_1275540023_31982659_1171783743_n.jpg)
and I couldn't see outside the airplane. You can definitely tell how fast you are going by sound. (generally) Same thing with road noise on a car - when I approach stall before the buzzer starts going the fences on the top of the wing make a very distinctive whistling noise. You can hear the air moving - put the nose down to 140 knots and listen, then listen at 100 knots. It's a big difference.
Oh telling the speed by sound, thought he meant identifying the stall by sound. I'd say this isn't very practical in larger aircraft as the stall speed changed with weight.
Also aren't you wearing a headset? The only thing I hear when wearing a headset is when my engines are operating above 90%.
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Yes, I wear a headset. I can still hear the engine and wind sound.....what kinda headset do you have?
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Yes, I wear a headset. I can still hear the engine and wind sound.....what kinda headset do you have?
D&C H10-13
Well I do hear the engine but it's in the background, so it's more like I know that it exists than I hear it as the sound. I wouldn't give the credit to the headset though, think it's the Diamond's canopy.
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What are cross controlled stalls?
See attached.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbkh6KdJ094 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbkh6KdJ094)
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Sound? Please explain.
Wing does not produce any sounds and aren't you wearing a headset anyways?
You're kidding aren't you? In light aircraft the sound of the air moving around the airplane is quite noticeable and a good indication of speed.
FYI, a noise canceling headset makes it easier to hear the "little things" in the airplane.
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You're kidding aren't you? In light aircraft the sound of the air moving around the airplane is quite noticeable and a good indication of speed.
FYI, a noise canceling headset makes it easier to hear the "little things" in the airplane.
No I can't hear it. I do remember hearing the wind on some older airframes but that's only above 150kts.
Will try to pay more attention to it on the next flight but I don't expect to be able to hear it.
Yeah I heard that about noise cancelling headset, never used one thought.
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Thanks for all the replies guys. Learn something new everyday. :aok
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Hi Machfly and Hitech,
Respectfully, not disagreeing with your experiences, I accept that my experiences are not extensive, and if I have the wrong idea, then no worries.
But may I ask this question?
Can anyone tell me the up angle of the elevator of the P51D at the point of stall for 1G, 2G. 6G stalls? Is it the same or virtually the same?
If we look at the stall speed of a P51D:
Stall speed = Vs x square root of G
Using the following.. 1 G say 113 MPH IAS at 9500lb, 2 G its 160 MPH, 6 G its 276 MPH
So I guess my question is, what is the up elevator angle of the P51D at 113 MPH, 160 MPH and 276 MPH IAS?
I tested it offline with the external view as best I could, taking screenshots and it looks like the elevator has pretty much the same upward deflection angle for each stall, regardless of the speed. (Tested P51D and Spit14)
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Just to make sure that I understood you right, your asking for the elevator position at constant G, constant airspeed, and constant weight.
Given that those 3 things are constant the elevator position will still be different because of CG. So for example if your flying with the stick a bit forward of neutral and as your burning fuel the CG moves forward you will eventually need to move the stick back a little therefore moving your elevators down. I don't know how much their going to move because I just never tested this and this would be different on every airplane.
Note that this is not the case in aircraft with fly-by-wire controls.
This is what would be the cause of difference in CG:
Forward:
Longer T/O roll
Longer Landing distance
Harder to rotate
Slower cruise TAS
Higher fuel burn rate
More stable
Less maneuverable
Easier to stall
Easier to recover (from a stall)
Aft:
Shorter T/O roll
Shorter Landing distance
Easier to rotate & flare
Higher cruise TAS
Lower fuel burn rate
Less stable
More maneuverable
Harder to stall
Harder to recover (from a stall)
Think of stall as the AoA of the wing and elevators and CG are the things that let you change that. Also the wing cares only about two things; dynamic pressure and AoA.
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Southlanda in Aces High the stick position for a specific AOA depends on the trim setting. In a real aircraft the trim would hold the stick in position but in flight sims with spring centered sticks the trim changes the control deflection position of the centered stick. This allows the same AOA with different stick positions.
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Anyone want to try building/installing this and tell me how well it works? :D
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/AoA_indicator.jpg)
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In the Beechcraft I fly, the stall horn comes on well before the buffeting. For the sake of me getting a good feel for the airplane, my instructor would have me fly the buffet and change heading every so often. Good learning experience.
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Anyone want to try building/installing this and tell me how well it works? :D
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/AoA_indicator.jpg)
You don't need one of those for your light single :)
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You don't need one of those for your light single :)
What single?
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You're kidding aren't you? In light aircraft the sound of the air moving around the airplane is quite noticeable and a good indication of speed.
FYI, a noise canceling headset makes it easier to hear the "little things" in the airplane.
I'm willing to bet MachFly notices the sound but doesn't even realize it. Even as a strictly VFR guy, I certainly use the sound of the plane passing through the air to give me a feel for my airspeed. I enjoy looking out the window and not at my instruments constantly.
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What single?
the single engine plane you are constructing.
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the single engine plane you are constructing.
Thought you meant single-seater :)
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Can anyone tell me the up angle of the elevator of the P51D at the point of stall for 1G, 2G. 6G stalls? Is it the same or virtually the same?
If we look at the stall speed of a P51D:
Stall speed = Vs x square root of G
Using the following.. 1 G say 113 MPH IAS at 9500lb, 2 G its 160 MPH, 6 G its 276 MPH
I tested it offline with the external view as best I could, taking screenshots and it looks like the elevator has pretty much the same upward deflection angle for each stall, regardless of the speed. (Tested P51D and Spit14)
I'm thinking if you want to test in the virtual world you should have combat trim off and measure the stick deflection directly.
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Sound? Please explain.
Wing does not produce any sounds and aren't you wearing a headset anyways?
I believe he means wind noise past the airframe, engine noise, etc. You can hear a lot despite the headset.
As part of my instrument training my instructor had me close my eyes and try to maintain straight and level. I almost immediately knew I was in a dive because of the increase in wind noise past the airframe.
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You can hear 100 knots in a skyhawk much easier than 70 - you can hear 140 even better.
You need instruction in the art of a wildlife clearing pass.
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You can hear 100 knots in a skyhawk much easier than 70 - you can hear 140 even better.
The 206 I flew most of my jump loads in had around 11000 hours on it, there was no insulation in the cabin other than some carpet glued to the inside of the skin.
During a descent with airspeed well into the yellow arc the noise was inescapable.
Left slips sounded different than right slips.
Put some G on the airplane and the wing root vents would make a little moaning sound.
The airplane will tell you what's happening if you listen to it.
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The 206 I flew most of my jump loads in had around 11000 hours on it, there was no insulation in the cabin other than some carpet glued to the inside of the skin.
During a descent with airspeed well into the yellow arc the noise was inescapable.
Left slips sounded different than right slips.
Put some G on the airplane and the wing root vents would make a little moaning sound.
The airplane will tell you what's happening if you listen to it.
I have heard older instructors refer to this as using the most "important" instrument, "paying attention to what your arse is telling you" or flying by the seat of your pants :rofl
Something that is really important when your instruments decide to fail you
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The 206 I flew most of my jump loads in had around 11000 hours on it, there was no insulation in the cabin other than some carpet glued to the inside of the skin.
During a descent with airspeed well into the yellow arc the noise was inescapable.
Left slips sounded different than right slips.
Put some G on the airplane and the wing root vents would make a little moaning sound.
The airplane will tell you what's happening if you listen to it.
You speak the truth, even if some these guys don't comprehend what you are saying. Funny thing, not one person posting to this thread ever mentions how sloppy the controls get at slow speeds. Contarty to what some people say, aircraft certified in the "Normal" category does not have control centering springs. All I have ever flow, controls returned to the neutral position through slip stream over them! I know the B-24 that you flew had hydraulic boosted controls, did you have any control feel at all? but the 29's I flew did not! Whew! Sometimes in crosswinds, it was a wrestling match, with both the A/C and myself on the controls!
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I know the B-24 that you flew had hydraulic boosted controls, did you have any control feel at all? but the 29's I flew did not! Whew! Sometimes in crosswinds, it was a wrestling match, with both the A/C and myself on the controls!
B-24 was all manual as well...no hydraulic boost for the controls...although she could use it!!! Rudder very stiff, elevator as well, ailerons not so bad -- at least not when compared to the B-17.
Engine-out drills would leave your rudder leg quivering. After my type rating checkride I could barely walk -- seems the check pilot didn't realize the airplane actually had 4 engines!!
The B-17 has a low rate of roll, was the B-29 like that as well?
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B-24 was all manual as well...no hydraulic boost for the controls...although she could use it!!! Rudder very stiff, elevator as well, ailerons not so bad -- at least not when compared to the B-17.
Engine-out drills would leave your rudder leg quivering. After my type rating checkride I could barely walk -- seems the check pilot didn't realize the airplane actually had 4 engines!!
The B-17 has a low rate of roll, was the B-29 like that as well?
Please keep this up, you two.
- oldman
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Funny thing, not one person posting to this thread ever mentions how sloppy the controls get at slow speeds.
I thought about it, does that count? :D
Control feel is certainly another way the airplane "talks to you". As you get slow you find you have the stick/yoke way back in your lap to increase pitch (or maintain a pitch attitude). It takes more aileron or rudder to get a response and control pressures are reduced.
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I did say in my post that you lose control authority...
Another thing is a lower level of control authority (in other words the controls dont effect the movement of the plane as much as they do while in normal flight, in contrast at higher speeds the controls have more authority which can lead to overcontrolling)
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You speak the truth, even if some these guys don't comprehend what you are saying. Funny thing, not one person posting to this thread ever mentions how sloppy the controls get at slow speeds.
You'll have to give props to Seanaldinho who mentions "less control authority" and to Hawkeye61 who mentions "controls get mushy" back on page 2. I think the OP was curious about accelerated stalls though. Generally speaking if a plane has a benign 1g stall does it behave well approaching a higher g stall?
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You'll have to give props to Seanaldinho who mentions "less control authority" and to Hawkeye61 who mentions "controls get mushy" back on page 2. I think the OP was curious about accelerated stalls though. Generally speaking if a plane has a benign 1g stall does it behave well approaching a higher g stall?
Thank you sir :aok
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B-24 was all manual as well...no hydraulic boost for the controls...although she could use it!!! Rudder very stiff, elevator as well, ailerons not so bad -- at least not when compared to the B-17.
Engine-out drills would leave your rudder leg quivering. After my type rating checkride I could barely walk -- seems the check pilot didn't realize the airplane actually had 4 engines!!
The B-17 has a low rate of roll, was the B-29 like that as well?
Yes, the 29 had a slow roll rate, and to stop a bank angle where you wanted it, usually required a opposite control input. Most of the heavy iron I ever flew, DC-3, DC-6B and C-46, just returning the controls to neutral was enough to stop the bank angle where you wanted it.The 29 was very sloppy below 120 kts IAS, with everything hangin out! 1 and 2 engine out drills on one side or the other was a terror, until you employed the trim, then it wasn't to bad. One of the problems with the 29 was those big ole "fowler" flaps, which would cause a great deal of "float" or ground effect and if you had a crosswind, sometimes things could get very hairy!! Going into Tinian one rainy night, with #1 caged and a 30 to 40 knot, 25 degree from the right, crosswind, we actually ran off the runway during roll out and "washed" out the nose gear, but we were almost stopped when it "caved". The 29's I flew were "B" models with the -57 engines and new clyinder baffling and they were pretty good engines. This same engine when on to service C-97's, Boeing "stratocruisers", Lockheed L1049's "Connies" and DC-7B & C models. Millions of people flew over seas via United, American, TWA, Easteren and a number of trans-ocean carriers. Guys, didn't mean to slight anyones post about controls, 78 year eyes don't always take in everything they should! The orginal thread has brough a lot comments, great reading and wish we could have more like this.
Anyone know what a "A" and "N" quadrant is and a "Cone of silence"?
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Anyone know what a "A" and "N" quadrant is and a "Cone of silence"?
Only from the show "Get Smart". :) Thanks for the stories, Earl! <S>
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Only from the show "Get Smart". :) Thanks for the stories, Earl! <S>
Just in case you were confusing this with something else, Earl:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqcSWI6Ppks
And thanks for the information, both you and Colmbo.
- oldman
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Anyone know what a "A" and "N" quadrant is and a "Cone of silence"?
Old radio navigation system having four courses (denoted by the Cone of Silence). You listened to a morse coded signal (A or N) to determine which side you were on, right in the middle was the null tone or "cone of silence". I think the 4 courses were north, south, east or west and you had to be somewhat oriented to figure out which side you were on and which direction to the station.
Never used one, just remember hearing about them.
From your statements about the B-29 roll I'm guessing it was just a Boeing thing. The B-17 was very slow to roll and the ailerons were very heavy. Working the airplane in close to make airshow passes routinely called for full aileron to get enough roll rate. The B-17 could be challenging in a crosswind but overall is an honest airplane. Just for relaxed, fun flying the B-17 beats the B-24. The B-24 could be a bit of a beast...but that's what makes her fun, gives you a sense of accomplishment when you do things well in the Liberator.
Even though the B-17 is a taildragger the B-24 is harder to taxi. She has a castoring, non steerable nosewheel so when slow you have to use the brakes to steer. The brakes on these old airplanes work off of the aircraft hydraulic system/accumulator. They are expander tube brakes -- there is kind of an inner tube around the brake pucks that is filled with hydraulic fluid to activate the brakes. Since it takes a moment to fill this tube there is a slight delay when using the brakes. The first time user will press the brakes and if used to modern brake systems will notice nothing happens so will press a bit harder on the brakes then finally when the expander tube fills you've now applied more brake than needed. In the B-24 the main wheels are just slightly behind the center of gravity so the airplane is tail heavy on the ground. If you get ham footed on the brakes the nose will start bobbing down with braking then rebound up as you release. If you get a bit out of synch you could probably bounce the nosewheel off the ground, although I've never heard of that happening. What does happen is as the nose bobs back up the weight on the nosewheel is reduced and that castoring wheel will turn left or right a bit and as the weight comes back on the nose you dart off in whichever direction the airplane has decided to take you. The Liberator can make a grown man cry like a little girl within 50' or less when you first learn to taxi her. :D
Once you get used to her you can drive her around like a sportscar --- well, like a 65000 pound 67' long, 110' wide sportscar. What many of us did was instead of pressing with your foot to apply brakes (when using for directional control) was to just curl your toes down -- that little bit of pressure would be enough to open the flow valve to the brake and gently apply just enough to ease her around the corner as you taxi. When taxiing along a taxiway we'd taxi with a bit of speed to get the rudders working (also bumping the power up on #2 and #3 helps to get more air over the rudder) then you didn't need brakes to steer. You can also steer with power but have to be careful because each time you add power to turn you also pick up a bit more speed.
Using brakes and power it is possible to "back up" in the B-17. Think about it.....
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Old radio navigation system having four courses (denoted by the Cone of Silence). You listened to a morse coded signal (A or N) to determine which side you were on, right in the middle was the null tone or "cone of silence". I think the 4 courses were north, south, east or west and you had to be somewhat oriented to figure out which side you were on and which direction to the station.
Never used one, just remember hearing about them.
From your statements about the B-29 roll I'm guessing it was just a Boeing thing. The B-17 was very slow to roll and the ailerons were very heavy. Working the airplane in close to make airshow passes routinely called for full aileron to get enough roll rate. The B-17 could be challenging in a crosswind but overall is an honest airplane. Just for relaxed, fun flying the B-17 beats the B-24. The B-24 could be a bit of a beast...but that's what makes her fun, gives you a sense of accomplishment when you do things well in the Liberator.
Even though the B-17 is a taildragger the B-24 is harder to taxi. She has a castoring, non steerable nosewheel so when slow you have to use the brakes to steer. The brakes on these old airplanes work off of the aircraft hydraulic system/accumulator. They are expander tube brakes -- there is kind of an inner tube around the brake pucks that is filled with hydraulic fluid to activate the brakes. Since it takes a moment to fill this tube there is a slight delay when using the brakes. The first time user will press the brakes and if used to modern brake systems will notice nothing happens so will press a bit harder on the brakes then finally when the expander tube fills you've now applied more brake than needed. In the B-24 the main wheels are just slightly behind the center of gravity so the airplane is tail heavy on the ground. If you get ham footed on the brakes the nose will start bobbing down with braking then rebound up as you release. If you get a bit out of synch you could probably bounce the nosewheel off the ground, although I've never heard of that happening. What does happen is as the nose bobs back up the weight on the nosewheel is reduced and that castoring wheel will turn left or right a bit and as the weight comes back on the nose you dart off in whichever direction the airplane has decided to take you. The Liberator can make a grown man cry like a little girl within 50' or less when you first learn to taxi her. :D
Once you get used to her you can drive her around like a sportscar --- well, like a 65000 pound 67' long, 110' wide sportscar. What many of us did was instead of pressing with your foot to apply brakes (when using for directional control) was to just curl your toes down -- that little bit of pressure would be enough to open the flow valve to the brake and gently apply just enough to ease her around the corner as you taxi. When taxiing along a taxiway we'd taxi with a bit of speed to get the rudders working (also bumping the power up on #2 and #3 helps to get more air over the rudder) then you didn't need brakes to steer. You can also steer with power but have to be careful because each time you add power to turn you also pick up a bit more speed.
Using brakes and power it is possible to "back up" in the B-17. Think about it.....
Was not aware the 17 had "reversable" props! We used power on 1 and 4 to help with taxiing, but the 29 was a docil ground hog! "A" and "N" quadrant was as you point out, a 4 "legged" radio range. First thing you had to do is orientate yourself by first "ident" which quadrant you were in! Lets say for discussion, dash-dot. Then you flew what ever heading you wanted to and turned your radio down to where you could barely hear the dast-dot. If the signal dies, you were generally going "away" from the station. Do a 180 and listen again and if sound increased, you were generally going towards the station. (Your car radio will do the same thing today) You had no choice at his point but to continue your heading until you heard a steady tone, which would occur as your crossed the "A" and "N' signals which would now be joined and you would get a steady "tone". Then it was a simple matter to keep bracketing this tone until the signal got louder and louder and as you crossed the transmitter site, you would enter the "cone" of silence. The higher you were, the wider the "cone" of silents. This was the first navigational system in the U.S., pioneered by the old "Air Mail" system and was installed by the U.S. government so as to have fast and timely mail delivery. Then the airline pioneers started flying and of course the rest is history as they say. Those guys flying mail planes were really brave pilots. After finding the cone of silence and not knowing how low the clouds were, they would select one of the four legs, execute a "procedure" turn, descending all the time until they broke out of the bottom of the clouds or crashed into a mountain. There was actually a "flare" system in use prior to the introduction of "low" frequency navigation, where the government had employees actually light large bon fires every 30 miles or so. Not sure on the distance between fires, but you get the idea. If it was IFR conditions, they just waited on the ground until the weather cleared. I had the honor of knowing a wise old gentleman by the name of W.W. Taylor, who in his early sixties, gave me several lessons in a J-3 in 1948. He was a early airmail pilot and he told me he knew where all the Railroad stations were along his route he flew and where the fields were that he could land in. He would walk to the station and have them telegraph ahead to see what the weather was where he was going, if there was a doubt about the weather ahead. He also said he knew where he could land and get fuel for his aircraft. Wow, would that have not been some exciting times to be flying? Bywinged aircraft, flying wires for braces, struts, only thing I ever flew was the famous PT-17 steerman and if you couldn't hear what was about to happen when you slowed down, you were in for one hellav surprise. I would advise anyone reading this to make every effort to find one of the old steermans and beg or pay for a ride! It will really make you appreciate why it was always regarded as the best "basic" trainer every built. (Don't mean to slight the T-6, but it had a closed cockpit, which you could open in flight, but still nothing like the old steerman)!
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There was actually a "flare" system in use prior to the introduction of "low" frequency navigation, where the government had employees actually light large bon fires every 30 miles or so. Not sure on the distance between fires, but you get the idea.
Learned about those in Aviation Legislation. I wanna say the first of these routes was Chicago to Denver.
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Using brakes and power it is possible to "back up" in the B-17. Think about it.....
My guess would be brake and power on the right side while applying left rudder would cause the left wheel to back up?
HiTech
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My guess would be brake and power on the right side while applying left rudder would cause the left wheel to back up?
HiTech
Yep. Brake and power on same side rotate that wing forward, tail slews back. It takes a LOT of power, engine can get hot and it's a lot of strain on the main gear -- not recommended but the WWII guys talked about doing it to back into parking spots.
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Excellent posts, Colmbo and Earl. Thanks for these!
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Learned about those in Aviation Legislation. I wanna say the first of these routes was Chicago to Denver.
You could be very right sir! I had read about the Chicago to St Louis as one of the early, if not the first "flare" route. Ever hear of "Barn" signs? The government used to pay farmers in the right locations to paint an arrow on the barn roof, pointing the direction to the closet town. I used to see a lot of "See Rock City" signs on barn tops, but I never saw one with an arrow on it. Mr. Taylor used to talk about the "railroad" maps, showing the different railroad companies routes and etc. He used to laugh about flying IFR,(I follow railroads), before the term IFR meant something else. I think I was born 20 years to late,(1934), that era of flying is appealing to me, barn storming around the country to pick up money and flying the mail in those days, wow!! While I am a product of the golden years of electronics, 55 to 90, pilotage navigating is still appealling as you had to use good judgement and common sense, not to mention the excitement of not knowing what was around the next cloud or mountain. Its really neat to follow your path on the ground using maps, observing objects on the ground as certain "way points", such as drive in theaters, double railroad tracks, water towers with town names on them and completing your flight as planned, especially if you could hit your "ETA" within 5 minutes on a 2 hour flight! Oh, well, back to the old dull GPS systems these days!
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You could be very right sir! I had read about the Chicago to St Louis as one of the early, if not the first "flare" route. Ever hear of "Barn" signs? The government used to pay farmers in the right locations to paint an arrow on the barn roof, pointing the direction to the closet town. I used to see a lot of "See Rock City" signs on barn tops, but I never saw one with an arrow on it. Mr. Taylor used to talk about the "railroad" maps, showing the different railroad companies routes and etc. He used to laugh about flying IFR,(I follow railroads), before the term IFR meant something else. I think I was born 20 years to late,(1934), that era of flying is appealing to me, barn storming around the country to pick up money and flying the mail in those days, wow!! While I am a product of the golden years of electronics, 55 to 90, pilotage navigating is still appealling as you had to use good judgement and common sense, not to mention the excitement of not knowing what was around the next cloud or mountain. Its really neat to follow your path on the ground using maps, observing objects on the ground as certain "way points", such as drive in theaters, double railroad tracks, water towers with town names on them and completing your flight as planned, especially if you could hit your "ETA" within 5 minutes on a 2 hour flight! Oh, well, back to the old dull GPS systems these days!
Yeah we read about Barn Signs and the water towers as well. Then VORS and everything comes along.
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Yep. Brake and power on same side rotate that wing forward, tail slews back. It takes a LOT of power, engine can get hot and it's a lot of strain on the main gear -- not recommended but the WWII guys talked about doing it to back into parking spots.
Man, that's a new wrinkle on my horn! I used to see the 3 17's that the state of Georgia used in Albany, Ga in the "fire ant eratification" program back in the late 70's. Of course the maint. people had a tug with a tow bar to move them around. I don't recall who the contractors were that operated the 17's, but they kept them in the air every day. I would have thought that apply power on #3 and #4, holding right brake, and full left rudder would only produce a 360 degree turn on the ground, not to mention burning up the brake pads on the right main. But, I'll take your word for it!
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You use only the outboard engine so that all the thrust is outboard of the maingear leg (which is the pivot point).
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I'd rather not discuss the specifics on a open forum.
Check PMs.
Is that code for "nothing" or something else?
You're pretty open about flying a DA-42 N Gee whiz and how much you're paying per hour but a simple question warrants secrecy? Okay.
As far as the airplane talking to you also don't think about wind noise at cruise speeds. Every time you flare even a 172 you'll hear that little whistle as the airflow changes and each airplane sounds a little different. Another time you'll hear strange sounds and whistles is when you've built some ice and it changes the airflow around all the parts that grow ice when encountered.
The difference in sounds with cowl flap positions, buffet or burbles with flap changes, props being synced having nothing to do with what the tachs say. That last one is annoying because even professionally some people just don't sync the darn things up. You'll also hear the hydraulic pump running to maintain pressure if thats how that particular system operates, for instance.
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The difference in sounds with cowl flap positions, buffet or burbles with flap changes
The B-24 has a pronounced buffet if the cowl flaps are too far open. Most likely turbulent air off #2 and #3 hitting the vertical stabs/rudders. Story has it a new crew bailed out of a new B-24 somewhere in California shortly after takeoff due to "buffeting"...most likely from cowl flaps that had not been set to "trail" prior to takeoff.
I've run the cowl flaps open to check it out, it is noticeable but I didn't feel I should bail out. :D
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Had something like that happen in my second trip as a green Citation FO. Passing through 400' with my brain back at the FBO we were given a 270 degree turn to get headed the direction we wanted to go. Somewhere I missed a call out between being a mile behind the airplane, talking to the voices in my head and turning the altitude select, no wrong switch, course, wrong again, heading bug! Got it! Got situated and while the airplane isn't fast in the first place as we started accelerating once we got leveled out there was a little burble growing into a buffet. I was proud of myself for being able to think somewhat rather than just being along for the ride and sheepishly reached for the checklist when I saw the flaps still in the takeoff detent.
I didn't really like the guy I was flying with after he yelled at me for being special needs or whatever he came up with. I came to learn he was wound pretty tight and was easily frazzled web the conversation topic turned to anything other than scuba diving. Talk about wanting to bail out...
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Is that code for "nothing" or something else?
You're pretty open about flying a DA-42 N Gee whiz and how much you're paying per hour but a simple question warrants secrecy? Okay.
MachFly flys planes other than general aviation aircraft. He has specialized knowledge that is probably classified, or at least sensitive. So lighten up.
- oldman
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MachFly flys planes other than general aviation aircraft. He has specialized knowledge that is probably classified, or at least sensitive. So lighten up.
- oldman
:salute
I have no doubt it's special knowledge.
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You're pretty open about flying a DA-42 N Gee whiz and how much you're paying per hour but a simple question warrants secrecy? Okay.
What I say about the TwinStar can be found online if you do enough research.
MachFly flys planes other than general aviation aircraft. He has specialized knowledge that is probably classified, or at least sensitive. So lighten up.
- oldman
It's not classified but there are some thing I'd rather not discuss on an open forum. Just my personal preference.