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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Reiner on May 02, 2012, 12:00:26 AM

Title: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Reiner on May 02, 2012, 12:00:26 AM
OMFG   WOW   since when does Gonzos 20mm  kill wirbs?   mine and anothers in a pass or 2   for both...
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: BaldEagl on May 02, 2012, 12:03:25 AM
Since they re-did the damage model.  It sucks.

Not only that any open topped vehicle.  My M-18 got killed by a single pass straffing run within the past week.  Perk vehicle?  Not really.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: MachFly on May 02, 2012, 12:13:14 AM
Why shouldn't it kill a wirble? A 20mm canon round should have no problem penetrating the unarmored top of the wirble and destroying it.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Reiner on May 02, 2012, 12:16:41 AM
an m18 is 1 thing  a panzer is another
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Reiner on May 02, 2012, 12:17:23 AM
and why hasnt it in the past?
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: branch37 on May 02, 2012, 12:21:51 AM
You can turret wirbles with the .50 cal machine guns on.  I've never killed them, but I know for a fact you can turret them. 
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Reiner on May 02, 2012, 12:31:09 AM
yes turret them,  kill them NO
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: coombz on May 02, 2012, 12:37:01 AM
boohoo  :cry
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: zack1234 on May 02, 2012, 12:41:08 AM
 :)
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: RedBull1 on May 02, 2012, 12:53:11 AM
:)
Do you have the Pie?
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Vudu15 on May 02, 2012, 01:33:26 AM
I killed a wirb with 50s one time was sorta surprised....but what do I care.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: 4Prop on May 02, 2012, 01:41:09 AM
i dunno but i was shooting at a tiger 1's turret (and hitting) with a tiger 2 at about 3200 yrds or meters or whatever the tanking measurment is..and i musta bounced 3 and a few of them did nothing because it was about 7 hits on different parts of it before it went straight to hell
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 02, 2012, 02:13:35 AM
yes turret them,  kill them NO

There was a bug with the flak panzies that ignored damage after the turret was taken out.  That has been fixed and now they can be killed by a strafing plane because after all they were an open top vehicle with the crew exposed.

ack-ack
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: icepac on May 02, 2012, 06:32:25 AM
I pumped about 170 rounds at d1300 into a wirb from a manned ack and it just drove off.......didn't even track it.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: JOACH1M on May 02, 2012, 06:41:48 AM
I have killed 3 panzers using the mossie's guns... :noid
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Slate on May 02, 2012, 07:13:26 AM
  I've heard that Wirbles fire back.  :O  I just want the Panzer to penatrate like it used to.  :cry
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: VonMessa on May 02, 2012, 07:29:59 AM
Was it just a single 20mm round that killed it?

I broke wind in my Whirb once and my crew abandoned it.

Then a jeep came along and hit it with a .50 cal round and it immediately exploded...     :noid
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: zack1234 on May 02, 2012, 10:54:05 AM
I have killed 3 panzers using the mossie's guns... :noid


Lies  :rofl
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Daddkev on May 02, 2012, 11:25:47 AM
 :huh :huh :huh I ran up to a wirble and capped him with my .45................20mm would go right through them!  :huh :huh :huh
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: JOACH1M on May 02, 2012, 01:00:20 PM

Lies  :rofl
I saved the film you old coot!  :old:
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Oddball-CAF on May 02, 2012, 01:20:25 PM
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110801192254/companyofheroes/en/images/thumb/7/7e/Unit_Wirbelwind_Flakpanzer_Crew.jpg/460px-Unit_Wirbelwind_Flakpanzer_Crew.jpg)

  "We're perfectly safe in here, Hans. Why, look at all the armor surrounding us!"
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Slate on May 02, 2012, 01:22:34 PM
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110801192254/companyofheroes/en/images/thumb/7/7e/Unit_Wirbelwind_Flakpanzer_Crew.jpg/460px-Unit_Wirbelwind_Flakpanzer_Crew.jpg)

  "We're perfectly safe in here, Hans. Why, look at all the armor surrounding us!"

  Well is not the driver in the armor under the turret?
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Lusche on May 02, 2012, 01:29:48 PM
 Well is not the driver in the armor under the turret?

IIRC, the turret is open at the bottom too, because that's where most of the ammo is stored there and handed up to the turret.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Reaper90 on May 02, 2012, 01:30:22 PM
  Well is not the driver in the armor under the turret?

Yes, he's inside where he'll cook up nicely when that thing catches fire.  :aok
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: zack1234 on May 02, 2012, 01:49:38 PM
I saved the film you old coot!  :old:

Lies lies Lies you have faked the film :old:
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: guncrasher on May 02, 2012, 02:47:48 PM
I once killed a tiger with my spit8.   I was marking him and he blew up as a couple of 20mm hit him on the top.  so I guess the werbies should be easier to kill  :rofl.



semp
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: kilz on May 02, 2012, 03:21:19 PM
it is well noted ostis and WW being shot to death by planes.

every crew member is exposed to plane fire (not to mention the ammo stored in it)

so to answer your question yes it is possible to kill a WW with 20mm cannons
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: SmokinLoon on May 02, 2012, 03:36:42 PM
I'd be willing to bet it is easier to completely destroy a Wirblewind via an eight gun P47 than it is using 20mm HE rounds.  Not that it cant be done, but I've only ever damaged the turret and tracks of *any* armored AFV, I've not destroyed anything completely with 20mm.  With the eight gun P47, I have been able to defeat the top rear armor of a Panzer IV but I think conditions were as perfect as it gets.  I was in an almost vertical dive (perpendicular impact for projectiles), my speed was rather slow all things considering, the Panzer IV H was parked, and I was able to hammer home many shots right at the convergence point dead center of the top rear armor.  Boom!

Otherwise, it is easy to damage the turrets of anything that has an open top.  The M18, Wirby, Osty, M16, etc.  They are are target fodder for aircraft.  I wish HTC would tilt things a wee bit more in favor of the gv's in terms of damaging them via aircraft guns.  I think it is way too easy.  Just sayin' 
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Reaper90 on May 02, 2012, 03:40:02 PM
I wish HTC would tilt things a wee bit more in favor of the gv's in terms of damaging them via aircraft guns. 

-1
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: curry1 on May 02, 2012, 04:02:00 PM
I wish HTC would tilt things a wee bit more in favor of the gv's in terms of damaging them via aircraft guns.  I think it is way too easy.  Just sayin' 

They all ready pushed back their visibility range.  Also a Wirblewind has a better chance of taking out a strafer then the strafee has a chance to kill or turret the wirblewind.  About 95% of the time I turret a wirble it is becasue its attention is focused elsewhere.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Babalonian on May 02, 2012, 04:36:47 PM
Whirbles, yummy.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: waystin2 on May 02, 2012, 05:35:28 PM
Whirbles, yummy.

Not all of them are yummy.  Some of them give you heartburn Babs... :devil
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: lunatic1 on May 02, 2012, 05:53:47 PM
planes with 2omm 30mm .50cal's can kill wirbles ostes m18's m3's m8's--panzers too if u hit them in the right spot :cool:
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Reaper90 on May 02, 2012, 09:46:52 PM
planes with 2omm 30mm .50cal's can kill wirbles ostes m18's m3's m8's--panzers too if u hit them in the right spot :cool:

were you the Bish player named "lunatic" that was in the wirb on the beach at A70 yesterday? If so, DAAAYYYUM sir, I thought you were Vasily Zaitsev in that thing! Sniping me dead cold almost immediate 1-shot ping killed from over 1K out.

 :salute

If ever it was worth losing a Tiger I to an incoming horde, it was worth it to roll it out to kill you and 9 of your friends before those Lancs showed up! LOL
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: 4Prop on May 02, 2012, 10:02:42 PM
YOLO
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Tank-Ace on May 02, 2012, 10:55:14 PM
I once killed a tiger with my spit8.   I was marking him and he blew up as a couple of 20mm hit him on the top.  so I guess the werbies should be easier to kill  :rofl.



semp

Poor tiger. He picked such a bad time to hit the end sortie button.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: muzik on May 03, 2012, 01:39:29 PM
OMFG   WOW   since when does Gonzos 20mm  kill wirbs?   mine and anothers in a pass or 2   for both...


50 cals sank battleships and destroyers in WW2, why wouldn't they or the larger 20mm be able to kill a little ol wirble?
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 03, 2012, 01:52:44 PM

50 cals sank battleships and destroyers in WW2, why wouldn't they or the larger 20mm be able to kill a little ol wirble?

name one battleship or destroyer that was sunk from .50 caliber machine gun fire alone.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Karnak on May 03, 2012, 02:39:35 PM

50 cals sank battleships and destroyers in WW2, why wouldn't they or the larger 20mm be able to kill a little ol wirble?
name one battleship or destroyer that was sunk from .50 caliber machine gun fire alone.


ack-ack
Heck, name one battleship for which 50 cal fire was even a contributing factor to its sinking.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: muzik on May 03, 2012, 03:05:00 PM
name one battleship or destroyer that was sunk from .50 caliber machine gun fire alone.


ack-ack



First off, I didnt say alone did I? Secondly, remember this, not every comment people make is a) always literal or b) without subtext.

My comment was not merely making the point that a battleship or destroyers have been sunk that way. I was making the point that much bigger targets have been taken down that way. Shipping of all types have been destroyed by strafing. And in most, maybe in all cases, the bullets alone did not destroy the target. A magazine hit, or fuel hit could have been the reason for all of them. I don't know and it is irrelevant, the bullet did it's job.

Now add that to the fact that hundreds possibly thousands of war ships were attacked with bombs and strafing attacks and in many cases it's likely that no one will ever know what exactly was the most decisive damage made to any sunken ship.

The Tuskegee Airmen attacked a destroyer with strafing and apparently someone gave them credit for sinking it, but there is some debate. The ship didn't sink immediately and they did not claim that it had. It was later that someone connected the sinking to the attack.

And lastly, how many times did a ship take damage from guns and not get sunk but returned to port or scuttled and never used again? Do you know?
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Guppy35 on May 03, 2012, 03:10:38 PM
You must have really long arms to be able to still reach your keyboard while backpedaling that fast.  :)
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: muzik on May 03, 2012, 03:16:29 PM
You must have really long arms to be able to still reach your keyboard while backpedaling that fast.  :)

No backpedaling going on there, it was translating for the intellectually challenged.  :aok
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Karnak on May 03, 2012, 03:17:49 PM
And lastly, how many times did a ship take damage from guns and not get sunk but returned to port or scuttled and never used again? Do you know?
Battleship?  From 50 cals?

Yes, I do know.  Never.  Not once.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: 4Prop on May 03, 2012, 03:23:09 PM
I accually heard that a nightfighter F6F ( i think it was) sunk a small battleship by shooting at a place on the ship witch caused a large explosion and sunk it
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: muzik on May 03, 2012, 03:34:01 PM
Battleship?  From 50 cals?

Yes, I do know.  Never.  Not once.

Sure you do. I forgot you were there.


Allied Strafing in World War 2: A Cockpit view of air to ground battle   -William B. Colgan
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: TwinBoom on May 03, 2012, 04:01:35 PM
OMFG   WOW   since when does Gonzos 20mm  kill wirbs?   mine and anothers in a pass or 2   for both...

P-47`s regularly strafed tigers on roads killing them with only 50cals the 50cal shells ricochet`ed of the road to the underside belly of the tigers

Improve your aim in whirble and plane will stand a slimmer chance of killing you :aok

but it is possible

Could you imagine the cries if you could kill tigers like they did in real life lmao
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 03, 2012, 04:40:36 PM
<backpedaling>

Don't fall on your arse trying to backpedal.

A .50 caliber round will not penetrate the deck armor of a Japanese battleship of the time.  The most one could hope for is to kill exposed crewmen or maybe start a deck fire on some exposed material. 

People don't realize or can't understand the fact that the armor decks on battleships were much more thicker than that on any main battle tank. If a .50 caliber round wouldn't harm a Tiger, what makes you think it's going to be anymore effective against armor plating thicker than a tank?

ack-ack
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: 4Prop on May 03, 2012, 04:43:47 PM
P-47`s regularly strafed tigers on roads killing them with only 50cals the 50cal shells ricochet`ed of the road to the underside belly of the tigers


but it is possible

Could you imagine the cries if you could kill tigers like they did in real life lmao


i posted about the ability on wishlist and that fact was dismissed
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: TwinBoom on May 03, 2012, 05:08:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3Usgfhdls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3Usgfhdls)

Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Lusche on May 03, 2012, 05:17:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3Usgfhdls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3Usgfhdls)



Does he really say "They weren't armored on the underside"? Well, the Tiger has 20-26mm at the bottom, that's as much as the M4 has on top! How do you penetrate that with a ricochet (=deformation and loss of energy) at an extremely flat angle?

Allied fighter pilots did claim a lot of tank kills by rockets in France too. British command investigations found out that they were vastly exaggerated, with actually very few tanks really being killed by rockets. Just as an example how pilot claims and reality can differ ( I'll try to dig it up again.)

Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Karnak on May 03, 2012, 05:34:42 PM
I accually heard that a nightfighter F6F ( i think it was) sunk a small battleship by shooting at a place on the ship witch caused a large explosion and sunk it
Nope. Try again, or perhaps look up what a battleship is.

Sure you do. I forgot you were there.


Allied Strafing in World War 2: A Cockpit view of air to ground battle   -William B. Colgan
There are these things called "books."  You should look into that and read a bit.  Also, you might want to look into what a battleship is as well.

i posted about the ability on wishlist and that fact was dismissed
That's because it isn't a fact.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: lunatic1 on May 03, 2012, 05:36:01 PM
were you the Bish player named "lunatic" that was in the wirb on the beach at A70 yesterday? If so, DAAAYYYUM sir, I thought you were Vasily Zaitsev in that thing! Sniping me dead cold almost immediate 1-shot ping killed from over 1K out.

 :salute

If ever it was worth losing a Tiger I to an incoming horde, it was worth it to roll it out to kill you and 9 of your friends before those Lancs showed up! LOL
actually that was probably lunatac--he is bish--i was lunatic1 with the 173rd guardian angels--they folded so i went to l.t.a.r.--i'm ltarlun now, and we fly knight's till november then tour then vote who to run with for a year.sometimes all it takes is one bullit.i use lunatic1 for bbs
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: muzik on May 03, 2012, 06:02:33 PM
Don't fall on your arse trying to backpedal.

A .50 caliber round will not penetrate the deck armor of a Japanese battleship of the time.  The most one could hope for is to kill exposed crewmen or maybe start a deck fire on some exposed material. 

People don't realize or can't understand the fact that the armor decks on battleships were much more thicker than that on any main battle tank. If a .50 caliber round wouldn't harm a Tiger, what makes you think it's going to be anymore effective against armor plating thicker than a tank?

ack-ack

The deck armor of Jap battleships doesn't hold a candle to the thickness of your head.




Nope. Try again, or perhaps look up what a battleship is.
There are these things called "books."  You should look into that and read a bit.  Also, you might want to look into what a battleship is as well.
That's because it isn't a fact.


Really? you mean like the book in that post you just quoted?

Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Oddball-CAF on May 03, 2012, 06:14:32 PM
First off, I didnt say alone did I?

I'm with Ack-Ack. You can play semantics all you want, but
the bottom line is that your statement that "50 cals sank
battleships" is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Karnak on May 03, 2012, 06:16:17 PM
Really? you mean like the book in that post you just quoted?
Go ahead and quote the section of your book where it states that a Japanese battleship was sunk by 50 cals.

I await your response with bated breath.  Will you evade again, or answer directly?
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 03, 2012, 06:24:54 PM
The deck armor of Jap battleships doesn't hold a candle to the thickness of your head.




Don't be upset just because you're wrong.  I would have thought it was something you'd be used to by now.

ack-ack
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Guppy35 on May 03, 2012, 08:35:21 PM
Does he really say "They weren't armored on the underside"? Well, the Tiger has 20-26mm at the bottom, that's as much as the M4 has on top! How do you penetrate that with a ricochet (=deformation and loss of energy) at an extremely flat angle?

Allied fighter pilots did claim a lot of tank kills by rockets in France too. British command investigations found out that they were vastly exaggerated, with actually very few tanks really being killed by rockets. Just as an example how pilot claims and reality can differ ( I'll try to dig it up again.)



I know that the fighter drivers did try and 'bounce' the 50s underneath tanks having heard that from a Jug fighter bomber driver directly.  Someone clearly planted the seed that it might work.  Whether they did or not will always be in dispute :)  In terms of the rocket Tiffies.  Clearly the message was sent, whether it was effective or not that the fighter bombers were doing the job.  I think the other thing folks assume is that all the Tiffies were carrying rockets, when that was not the case.  RCAF Tiffies in Normandy were only loaded out with bombs and they played a big part in Falaise.  I would suspect that a 500 or 1000 pounder going off near a tank was much more effective then a rocket.

Ironically, at least to me, is that the folks who don't want to believe Michael Wittmann's Tiger was killed by Firefly, claim it was done in by a rocket Tiffie that day, although there were none over that battlefield.  I guess it all depends on what message you want to send :)
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Guppy35 on May 03, 2012, 08:41:35 PM
The deck armor of Jap battleships doesn't hold a candle to the thickness of your head.





Really? you mean like the book in that post you just quoted?



Which battleship was it that was sunk by 50s? :)

I re-read "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" not too long ago, and the Destroyer guys with their 5 inchers spent their time trying to hit the upper works on the BBs they came across as they knew that they couldn't do much more then try and irritate them.

The Wildcat and Avenger pilots did the same with their 50s hoping to keep the heads down of the gunners and maybe break a bit of glass.  They never mentioned that they had the power to sink a battleship with a 50 cal.  I don't recall ever coming across mention of such an event in all the years I've been studying WW2 history.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Tank-Ace on May 03, 2012, 10:21:07 PM
Its a Golly-geen battleship dude. Some had over a 35,000 ton displacement, 14" armor belts at the waterline, armored decks, and shells stored in magazines deep within the ship.

But you think that .50 caliber rounds, which would be physicly incapable of penetrating the hull anywhere below the waterline, couldn't have gotten through the armor on the gun turrets or sponsons, and likely wouldn't even have penetrated the deck armor, had ANYTHING to do with one of them sinking  :huh?
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: 4Prop on May 03, 2012, 11:36:19 PM
Nope. Try again, or perhaps look up what a battleship is.
There are these things called "books."  You should look into that and read a bit.  Also, you might want to look into what a battleship is as well.
That's because it isn't a fact.

it is definantly a fact. did you not see TB's post?. allow me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3Usgfhdls

now, say that again?
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Getback on May 04, 2012, 12:02:03 AM
I use to kill panzers all the time with a c-hog. Get directly over the top and hammer down.

I once got a pilot wound in a panzer. One of the most frustrating experiences I've had in the game. I was playing with the seating position key so I could see out the peep hole better. Moved all the way forward and said that's better. About that time a spit comes in and pings me, gave me a pilot wound. I rolled around a bit bleeding out. LOL.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Getback on May 04, 2012, 12:04:23 AM
They all ready pushed back their visibility range.  Also a Wirblewind has a better chance of taking out a strafer then the strafee has a chance to kill or turret the wirblewind.  About 95% of the time I turret a wirble it is becasue its attention is focused elsewhere.

Yeah, I don't even fire until they are 1k out. By that time it's too late.
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Getback on May 04, 2012, 12:06:33 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3Usgfhdls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3Usgfhdls)



Now that's cool!
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Guppy35 on May 04, 2012, 03:00:24 AM
it is definantly a fact. did you not see TB's post?. allow me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3Usgfhdls

now, say that again?

It's a fact that fighter bombers strafed armored vehicles.  It's open to question that any Tiger tanks were destroyed by bouncing 50 cal bullets off the road in front of them to try and hit the undersides.  There is nothing in that video to support the dead Tiger by mg fire idea.  I did not see a Tiger in it either, and the strafing passes were from the side not front or back of the vehicles and not aligned with the road so as to be shooting under the vehicle to avoid tracks or wheels for that matter

I think I'd look for better evidence before demanding too much in return
Title: Re: Since when does a 20mm kill a wirb?
Post by: Guppy35 on May 04, 2012, 03:10:16 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3Usgfhdls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3Usgfhdls)



TB, when that documentary first came out, I taped it and took it with to Earl Miller's house to show him.  Earl won a DFC and Silver Star flying ground attack in Jugs in the MTO.  It was fun to watch and see him get caught up commenting on things.  Without fail he'd get on them for opening up too soon and pulling off to early on their strafing passes.  He did acknowledge that they tried to bounce shots off the ground, but didn't have much believe it did much good.