Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Noir on May 10, 2012, 06:57:03 AM
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New gun in the game isn't it? That's not every day we get one :aok
How does it fare up against the Vickers S and the NS37 ?
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In a nutshell: NS-37 is the superior gun, the BK 3,7 uses the superior ammo.
The NS-37 has the advantage of higher ROF, higher muzzle energy and much more ammo. The German Hartkern shell is much lighter and faster, should have a significantly higher penetration ability at optimum angles (but is quite sensitive to angle changes).
Unfortunately, unlike tank guns we don't get penetration data for airborne AT guns in AH. Anthony G. Wiliams gives a penetration of 48mm at 500m/90° for the NS-37, according to official German test data the BK 3,7 with Hartkern will penetrate 95mm at 600m/90° (at 100m that can go up to 140(!)mm)
In game the 40mm Vickers has in my experience about the same or slightly better penetration than the NS-37.
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according to official German test data the BK 3,7 with Hartkern will penetrate 95mm at 600m/90° (at 100m that can go up to 140(!)mm)
:O :O :O
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A King Tiger has 25-40 mm top armor. The Stuka-G is going to tear up tanks like nobody's business.
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A King Tiger has 25-40 mm top armor. The Stuka-G is going to tear up tanks like nobody's business.
Though both will meet very rarely in the long run, due to the high perked nature of the TII making it a base defender/concrete sitter and the slow speed of the Ju-87 keeping to base defense duties for the most part as well.
Of course, the other tanks will suffer from the BK 3.7, but then we already have 3 airborne guns capable of killing every common tank in the arsenal ;)
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Attacking the top armor may not be the most effective attack profile. The round performs poorly at strike angles over 20 degrees and loses energy very fast with range. It will cut through a lot of armor at short range and a flat strike angle but that's not what you typically get when attacking down through the top. I haven't really ran the numbers but my feel is that you'll probably be better off to go at the rear or sides and try to make your attack angle perpendicular to the armor angle. Then wait until you're at close range to shoot, hopefully where you have your convergence set.
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Attacking the top armor may not be the most effective attack profile. The round performs poorly at strike angles over 20 degrees and loses energy very fast with range. It will cut through a lot of armor at short range and a flat strike angle but that's not what you typically get when attacking down through the top. I haven't really ran the numbers but my feel is that you'll probably be better off to go at the rear or sides and try to make your attack angle perpendicular to the armor angle. Then wait until you're at close range to shoot, hopefully where you have your convergence set.
Yayyyy... exactly what I was reasoning in that other thread :banana:
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Attacking the top armor may not be the most effective attack profile. The round performs poorly at strike angles over 20 degrees and loses energy very fast with range. It will cut through a lot of armor at short range and a flat strike angle but that's not what you typically get when attacking down through the top. I haven't really ran the numbers but my feel is that you'll probably be better off to go at the rear or sides and try to make your attack angle perpendicular to the armor angle. Then wait until you're at close range to shoot, hopefully where you have your convergence set.
Unless theres an F3 view. Of course I'll be the only one in the game using it and everyone else will have warts and hair on their hands. :rofl
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Rich,
I'm not sure why you're hungup on this F3 issue but I for 1 cant see the gunsite from F3 view so it does me little good when shooting. Sure you can shoot using F3 and put a mark on the monitor but I'd shoot you if you didnt that to my monitor!
I'm glad Pyro made his comment,I plan on practicing with the stuka to see what works best as I'm bound to hear in the TA how the heck do you kill a tank with those guns. If I'm reading what Pyro says correctly,the angle of attack will depend greatly on the tank being attacked. Matching the angle of slope to appoarch at a pependicular attack angle and get in close?
:salute
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Next up: Plasma cannons!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IddYADdRG2E
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F3 view will turn it into the next IL2. . .IL2 lost the F3 view for a reason.
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A King Tiger has 25-40 mm top armor. The Stuka-G is going to tear up tanks like nobody's business.
As far as I know the Tiger-ll has 40mm armor on top only. The Tiger has weaker spots but not the ll. In the game, and not that I fly the thing much anymore, Ive found the Tiger-ll to be pretty impervious to the NS-37 cannons.
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F3 view will turn it into the next IL2. . .IL2 lost the F3 view for a reason.
Naw, much less ammo and no ords. Also not as tough against AA. Besides with the floor window F3 wont really matter. Ive done tests with the Stuka in the game flying clean with TrackIR. The dive window will allow excellent angles and the dive break will be an added plus. Even with the IL2, when I was able to achieve high angles thru F3, I'd only shoot 2 to 4 rounds a pass. Convergance set to 250 to 300 its devestating to top plate.
Rich,
I'm not sure why you're hungup on this F3 issue but I for 1 cant see the gunsite from F3 view so it does me little good when shooting. Sure you can shoot using F3 and put a mark on the monitor but I'd shoot you if you didnt that to my monitor!
I'm glad Pyro made his comment,I plan on practicing with the stuka to see what works best as I'm bound to hear in the TA how the heck do you kill a tank with those guns. If I'm reading what Pyro says correctly,the angle of attack will depend greatly on the tank being attacked. Matching the angle of slope to appoarch at a pependicular attack angle and get in close?
Dont know exactly what your saying. I never shot guns when in F3, not against tanks, not against aircraft. Indeed I found the tactic silly and unworkable. The only thing I found unfair about removing F3 for the IL2 is because the bomber was singled out due to whining from the tank crowd. Had they taken F3 from ALL bombers/attackers it wouldnt have bothered me and I have no problem with lessening the distance GVs can be seen from the air. And then they added salt to the wound by tossing the bomber in the FHs too.
The whole charade of "the IL2 being a deadly fighter vs fighter due to F3" was just that. A charade! You gotta be a real shmuck to get shot down in a fighter by an IL2 F3 or not.
But Im past all that. It is what it is. The game has become another World of Tanks and AH is simply making their base happy. There were only a few IL2 specialists and we really had no voice.
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Ju87G-2 doesn't have a dive brake.
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F3 view will turn it into the next IL2. . .IL2 lost the F3 view for a reason.
Only because it didnt need it in the first place. :aok
The Stuka G is NOT going to be any more of a force than the Hurricane IID. Mark my word. ;)
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Only because it didnt need it in the first place. :aok
The Stuka G is NOT going to be any more of a force than the Hurricane IID. Mark my word. ;)
If its a more stable platform it will ne more of a force. Thats the one thing I liked about the IL2, its more stable on the dive. At least to me.
My method of attack was to dive at a steep angle, not super steep but stepp enough, and come in a bit shallow keeping the tank right on the top of my sight ring/view. As i got closer the tank would line up with my crosshairs. At the point of crosshair alignment I'd be about 300 away giving me at most time for 4 shots at 300 to 200 away. Then I'd pull up sharply, not TO sharply cause I was controlling my speed on the dive. But not to slow either cause I'd immediatly convert "E" back to a steep climb to stay away from the guns of the enemy GV. I never hosed and always aimed for the thin top plate in the tank.
For some reason the Hurri D fights my stick to much, even with variou forms of trim. If the new Stuka has the stability of the IL2, and some of the agility of the Hurri, it will be a good platform. Maybe the best. But guys are going to have to learn to fly it like a flying tank and not a 200 round one either. Theres only a couple of very good Hurri-D sticks in the game. Im betting the Stuka will fair a bit better but your going to have to conserve ammo and be a sharpshooter.
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Attacking the top armor may not be the most effective attack profile. The round performs poorly at strike angles over 20 degrees and loses energy very fast with range. It will cut through a lot of armor at short range and a flat strike angle but that's not what you typically get when attacking down through the top. I haven't really ran the numbers but my feel is that you'll probably be better off to go at the rear or sides and try to make your attack angle perpendicular to the armor angle. Then wait until you're at close range to shoot, hopefully where you have your convergence set.
IDK about everyone else, but when I get back on, I intend to perfect the diving attack.
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IDK about everyone else, but when I get back on, I intend to perfect the diving attack.
Dive angles of more than 60° are very difficult to pull of, particularly vs moving targets, particularly as one tends to estimate the actual angle higher than it really is. I'm 'perfecting' this attack for 6 years now and still end up with 45° attacks mostly :lol
(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/6323/diving.jpg)
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Never said it would be easy, but I'm gonna try.
If I had to take a guess, the biggest problem is going to be judging how far ahead of the tank to initiate my dive. If you don't get that right, the angle on your firing run is going to be shallower than you would like.
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I cant get good angles anymore. Even worse I keep augering trying to get used to trackIR. But its like starting over anyway, IR or not.
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From an older thread on the same subject:
The Hurricane's 40 mm Vickers S guns are very much inferior to the Stuka's 37 mm BK 37. The Vickers' has a muzzle velocity of 1,870 ft/s, or little more than the MK 108 spud gun. The BK clocks in at 3,836 ft/s with APCR Tungsten rounds (standard issue on "Gustav the tank killer"). Almost 1000 ft/s more than the .50 cal. For comparison the Il-2's N-37 clocks in at 2,260 ft/s.
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Back to platforms. Im interested to see how stable the JU-87G really is going to be in comparison to the IL2 and Hurri-D. My early tests indicate a very stable gun platform, with the Stuka we have now". Remember the 87G was not a light airframe, it was almost as heavy empty as the IL2 and far heavier then the Hurri-D. It had substantial wing area too which is a plus with the IL2. Its power/weight ratio is its archilles heel however. Your going to have to come in fast to have the energy to get verticle again. The Hurri-D is not a horespower giant either but at least it was light compared to the stuka. The 87G is not going to fair well against enemy fighters.
I honestly dont know how Rudel did it. No matter what you think of him personally he was one hell of an airman.
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Honestly the M4 37mm on the P-39 should have the highest penetration! It has a higher velocity!
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Honestly the M4 37mm on the P-39 should have the highest penetration! It has a higher velocity!
You should do a facts check ;)
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Honestly the M4 37mm on the P-39 should have the highest penetration! It has a higher velocity!
Hmmmm, methinks the bait is stinky. :p
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I noticed on the screen shots that there were angle marks on the side screen, it may make judging the angle by eye easier after a few tries.
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Since we are now up to 3 dedicated tank attackers with wing cannon designed to penetrate armor. I wonder if it's time for HTC to add in the dropdown menu for their ballistic penetration info for each individual cannon.
Round(AP)(API)(APC)(TungstinCor)(SteelCor)(CartoonCor)---ft\sec or m\sec
Range
Angle
Penetration
The dropdown armor info for the tanks indicates shooting at the rear deck of the tank at 45-60 degree angle will reduce the natural effect of increasing armor thickness by shooting from too shallow of an angle. Or not firing untill inside of 300 yards except at open top turret. WW2 NS-37 tests reccomend 300m and closer. Risky business if you don't keep track of wirbels and the tank's turret direction. I see alot of IL2 and B25H killed that way while on full zoom in 88's.
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These shells are getting to big to pass through the booms. :confused:
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From an older thread on the same subject:
The Hurricane's 40 mm Vickers S guns are very much inferior to the Stuka's 37 mm BK 37. The Vickers' has a muzzle velocity of 1,870 ft/s, or little more than the MK 108 spud gun. The BK clocks in at 3,836 ft/s with APCR Tungsten rounds (standard issue on "Gustav the tank killer"). Almost 1000 ft/s more than the .50 cal. For comparison the Il-2's N-37 clocks in at 2,260 ft/s.
Analogy: So with all other things being equal, do you want to get shot in the chest with a .45 ACP, 9mm Parabellum, or .357 Magnum? :D
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Since I'm obviously the tank in your analogy I must be wearing body armor. Since the .45ACP is the slowest and fattest bullet (Vickers-S analogue) I'd prefer that... Try to hit the chest plate, please? :confused: :uhoh :D
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Since I'm obviously the tank in your analogy I must be wearing body armor. Since the .45ACP is the slowest and fattest bullet (Vickers-S analogue) I'd prefer that... Try to hit the chest plate, please? :confused: :uhoh :D
All of them are going to knock you flat on your backside (or drop in dire pain), break a few ribs, cause bruising of your internals, and make you cry for mommy. :aok
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Nah...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDRRJZ6rJBY&feature=related
Might get some bruising.
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Nah...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDRRJZ6rJBY&feature=related
Might get some bruising.
Considering that the shot was to the stomach, against a man that knew he was going to get shot, I'd have called the result even before the shot was made. There is a reason he didn't take a shot to the center mass (sternum/ribs). ;)
I took a bean bag round to the chest with a ballistic vest on. That alone was enough to make me go wipe. I had plenty of bruising after the fact. Not fun.
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These shells are getting to big to pass through the booms. :confused:
T-shirt. :rofl :aok
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Round(AP)(API)(APC)(TungstinCor)(SteelCor)(CartoonCor)---ft\sec or m\sec
Range
Angle
Penetration
cartoon cor? :noid :rofl
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Interesting information on Airborne AT velocities, etc:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm
I can't find anything remotely close to a 3,000+ FPS round on any airborne anti-tank gun...
Anyone?
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Interesting information on Airborne AT velocities, etc:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm
I can't find anything remotely close to a 3,000+ FPS round on any airborne anti-tank gun...
Anyone?
look into the list. BK 3.7 has a listed muzzle velocity of 1140m/s
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Interesting information on Airborne AT velocities, etc:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm
I can't find anything remotely close to a 3,000+ FPS round on any airborne anti-tank gun...
Anyone?
How could you possibly miss it?
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How could you possibly miss it?
Wow, maybe because I am a complete idiot?
<---- PWND BY METRIC MATHMAGERY!
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lol :)