Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: NikonGuy on May 27, 2012, 11:16:47 PM
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I am asking a serious question here, so please no rants or belittling.
I don't understand why a HO upsets so many when:
a. It was used in actual combat
b. Pointing your guns at another opponent is an act of aggression
Its a tactic that for some reason in AH has this whole taboo stigma attached to it and based on point B. if an opponent attempts to point his guns at me, no matter from what direction then I will fire !!
I am also finding on occasion that after checking the film back find that the person making the HO claims actually fired themselves, which is beyond belief .. !!
Would love peoples thoughts :)
NikonGuy
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(http://www.camaro5.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=3537&pictureid=76168)~
Use the flame suit!!
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(http://www.camaro5.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=3537&pictureid=76168)~
Use the flame suit!!
Lmao .. Don't I know it :O
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"That (insert expletive of choice here) shot me down by flying right at me! Grr I'm so (insert expletive of choice here) (insert deity of choice here) darned angry! Why, if he hadn't shot at me when we were nose to nose, he wouldn't have the skill to get on my 6 and kill me proper. The skill-less (insert demeaning description of sexual orientation/genital size here.) n00b.
About sums it up.
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I prefer to HO as it takes all the manoeuvring stuff out of the equation.
Barring a lot of radiator hits in my Tiffie it's a pretty succesful tactic.
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:huh
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I prefer to HO as it takes all the manoeuvring stuff out of the equation.
(http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/489/epicfacepalmwhenyoujust.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/epicfacepalmwhenyoujust.jpg/)
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I prefer to HO as it takes all the manoeuvring stuff out of the equation.
I'm pretty sure that's why NikonGuy does it all the time too
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I'm on your side. HOing to me is an acceptable tactic. I think the main reason people here complain about is, from the fact that they spend 20 minutes of real life time flying to a fight just to get badly damaged or killed during a HO. I think people want more of a battle if they are devoting so much time in travel. To me however, this is why you alt tab and do other things during travel. The times i dont fire and we are flying head on i get shot in the face. So now if any one is flying at me head on then hell yeah I'm going to shoot. Most times for me when a head on engagement begins its at 1k or a little more. If the enemy aircrafts nose is dead on me I'm gunna fire, but if I see they are going above below or to the side and I typically do not shoot. In my mind if we aren't going to shoot each other in the HO then you have 1k distance to stop aiming directly at me. But if that 1k turns to 400 then you bet I'm firing with everything.
Flame on.
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I'm on your side. HOing to be is an acceptable tactic. I think the main reason people here complain about is, is from the fact that they spend 20 minutes of real life time flying to a fight just to get badly damaged or killed during a HO. I think people want more of a battle if they are devoting so much time in travel. To me however, this is why you alt tab and do other things during travel. The times i dont fire and we are flying head on i get shot in the face. So now if any one is flying at me head on then hell yeah I'm going to shoot. Most times for me when a head on engagement begins its at 1k or a little more. If the enemy aircrafts nose is dead on me I'm gunna fire, but if I see they are going above below or to the side and I typically do not shoot. In my mind if we aren't going to shoot each other in the HO then you have 1k distance to stop aiming directly at me. But if that 1k turns to 400 then you bet I'm firing with everything.
Flame on.
My thoughts exactly .. If I see the other guy is gonna do a cold merge then so do I coz its a pretty sure bet your in for some fun. But if their purely in for the quick kill then I am gonna light up those 20mm straight back at 'em .. :P
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It's very simple and dates back to the Airwarrior days where HO shots were really frowned upon.
The biggest complaint here is when folks use the 'it was a valid tactic in wartime" line, is that in the MA we have nothing to lose. Lives mean nothing. There is absolutely no risk to a HO shot. In that regard its seen as 'lazy', in particular by the guys who pride themselves in their ACM skills.
Having said that, I'd expect 20-30 of them to charge in here and say 'it's easy to avoid a HO". And there is some truth to that, but again, I think it comes down to a tactic that requires little effort with no risk in the MA.
The flip side to that is special events like scenarios where lives do matter. If you take a HO shot there, and the other guy blazes back, you do have something to lose. Then the 'valid tactic" argument holds some weight as you are taking a risk.
I don't blame anyone for taking that shot in a special event as it may be the only shot they get.
In the end, it's your choice. If you expect someone to salute you for a great HO shot, I think you are going to be disappointed. As will happen here, some will defend it and some will criticize it. It all comes down to how you want to play. Odds are good that if that's your only tactic, the better sticks will avoid it and kill you quick, so it's probably better to spend some time learning the bird you fly and how to bend it most effectively so when you run into those good sticks you have something to fall back on when your HO shot misses :aok
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"A facepalm (sometimes also face-palm or face palm) is the physical gesture of placing one's hand flat across one's face or lowering one's face into one's hand or hands. The gesture is found in many cultures as a display of frustration, embarrassment, shock, or surprise"
So many choices US Ranger, what are we going for frustration (this applies to nme spiralling down in flames), embarrasment (this applies to nme getting shot down by a hack like me), shock (this applies to nme realising 4x20mm hispanos are nasty), or surprise (this applies to nme reaslising that anyone who flies a Tiffie can actually get their guns on them)
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I'm pretty sure that's why NikonGuy does it all the time too
nope .. I actually prefer the fun of the fight :)
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It's very simple and dates back to the Airwarrior days where HO shots were really frowned upon.
The biggest complaint here is when folks use the 'it was a valid tactic in wartime" line, is that in the MA we have nothing to lose. Lives mean nothing. There is absolutely no risk to a HO shot. In that regard its seen as 'lazy', in particular by the guys who pride themselves in their ACM skills.
Having said that, I'd expect 20-30 of them to charge in here and say 'it's easy to avoid a HO". And there is some truth to that, but again, I think it comes down to a tactic that requires little effort with no risk in the MA.
The flip side to that is special events like scenarios where lives do matter. If you take a HO shot there, and the other guy blazes back, you do have something to lose. Then the 'valid tactic" argument holds some weight as you are taking a risk.
I don't blame anyone for taking that shot in a special event as it may be the only shot they get.
In the end, it's your choice. If you expect someone to salute you for a great HO shot, I think you are going to be disappointed. As will happen here, some will defend it and some will criticize it. It all comes down to how you want to play. Odds are good that if that's your only tactic, the better sticks will avoid it and kill you quick, so it's probably better to spend some time learning the bird you fly and how to bend it most effectively so when you run into those good sticks you have something to fall back on when your HO shot misses :aok
Thats a great point which makes a lot of sense .. cheers
If I am 1 v 1 against a good stick I wont HO but when I am getting ganged by five F4U's like last night and four of them are HO'ing and when I HO back the fifth, he has a cry and squeakes for 20 mins it sorta gets a little ridiculous.
I used to try to avoid HO's but found I get hit all too often so I may as well get in there with half a chance and hope my guns hit him first
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I generally won't fire on the first pass. If you HO and miss (which u usually will if I see ya coming), you're probably about 2 turns from death because I'm six steps ahead of you before the smoke clears your guns. Its a pretty easy measure of pilot skill (or lack there of) when a guy has tons of options and opens up with a HO shot.
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Generally speaking if you are going for any shot on the front 180 degrees -ish of a plane you are putting yourself at a disadvantage for the next turn or two because you have to hold your nose on the nme for so long.
If you are going for those shots you have to make it count or else you are in trouble. I have no problem with taking the shot especially with better turning nme (which is just about everythig in a Tiffie) but I know that if I miss I'm putting myself at a bigger disadvatage.
Not right or wrong just choosing options and living with the consequences
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It's more fun not to is the reason not to do it. Well worked kill >> cheap ho kill.
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Those who Ho are showing at least poor sportsmanship and a lack of skill. I consider it "gaming the game".
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I prefer to HO as it takes all the manoeuvring stuff out of the equation.
Barring a lot of radiator hits in my Tiffie it's a pretty succesful tactic.
9+ years and you consider that a good tactic?
HOing puts the person that initiates the HO in a position to get face blasted aswell. Which in my opinion is dumb...why would I let someone get a free shot at me?
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I took a break for a while, does that make it better? :)
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And as I said here
Not right or wrong just choosing options and living with the consequences
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I don't understand why a HO upsets so many
Its lazy and pointless, it upsets the guy who doesn't ho, I used to get this in WW1 a lot I would ask them to stop it and when they didn't I hoed them better from a much longer distance after dying 2 or 3 times they voluntarily agreed that the hoing had to stop! :D
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This whole discussion is pointless unless everyone plays by the same rules.
Like I said earlier, last night I was up against 5 cons, 4 of them trying to HO me .. thats a very different fight from 1v1. At least I took two of them with me before getting my face and tail shot off at the same time lol ...
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Those who Ho are showing at least poor sportsmanship and a lack of skill. I consider it "gaming the game".
Those who whine in game about getting HO'd are showing at least poor sportsmanship. In a game thats kill or be killed, im going to do anything in my power to kill you before you kill me, HO included.
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I used to try to avoid HO's but found I get hit all too often so I may as well get in there with half a chance and hope my guns hit him first
Then you just haven't learned how to avoid a HO.
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I'm not a very good pilot, but even I know enough that, when I'm fighting multiple cons trying to HO me, the last thing I want to do is go nose to nose with any of them
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I tried everything to avoid but in the end I got hit .. your right HO in a situation like that is not ideal but when trying to out turn the guy behind you see another coming straight at you .. what do you do.
As far as avoiding HO's .. there is no 100% sure bet that they won't hit you when you try to evade them .. depends on the circumstances I guess :P
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If I am 1 v 1 against a good stick I wont HO but when I am getting ganged by five F4U's like last night and four of them are HO'ing and when I HO back the fifth, he has a cry and squeakes for 20 mins it sorta gets a little ridiculous.
I can accept this.
BUT!!!
If its an 1v1, 2v2, 5v5 or basically an equal situation, if you fire head on, you admit that you had absolutely no other chance to outmaneuver you opponent, let it be a TnB (yummy), energy fight (hmmm) or BnZ (boooo). Ergo you are way inferior to him. If there is no pride stuck in you, aye, go, ho n run.
As for it was a R/L move... go get some more exuses for being inpotent to pull any acm.
Btw NG, last time i met your squad, two were in tiffies and ShtLanda in a spit14 against my deck g6. They were playing the hoey-runney game, heck i hoed back after the 15th pass and got the two tiffies but got radiator and fuel tank hit. Could manage to ditch tho. Should have seen that jelling what a little girl i am and how i got owned. Also luved whe i was turning with 3 spit9s for a while, got one, he reupped, got another in the 2v1, he reupped, and this (otherwise fun) stuff was going on til you called the pony to ho me down. Aye i was mad, should i apologize? Whatever... thats what i think about your "only ho when in a totally hopeless position"
Please change this couse i liked you so much better in the past when you were all about the 1v1.
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I like the inverted HO – you can see the shells running down the fuselage as you go past. Then the messages begin. Never a <S> strangely enough.
I never seek a HO as an opening move. I prefer to have a bit of lateral separation during a merge as it allows some flexibility and a better opportunity for escape if you need to. But most folk just have to drift over to a pure nose to nose merge for whatever reason. Then I’ll fire ……just because.
Of course, Typhies, C-Hogs and Mossies make the HO a redundant and positively dangerous move. I’m stupid, but not completely mad.
Anyway – Spit flying manual clearly states, and I quote;
“ The Ho ain’t a No-No. The Ho is a Go, either fast or Slow. Always show your foe the Ho. Nowhere to go, try the Ho. More cons than you know, try the Ho. Want to put on a show, try the Ho. Larry, Mo and Curly Joe always went the Ho.”
There’s more, but I would need a big whiteboard and Microsoft Power Point.
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Anyway – Spit flying manual clearly states, and I quote;
“ The Ho ain’t a No-No. The Ho is a Go, either fast or Slow. Always show your foe the Ho. Nowhere to go, try the Ho. More cons than you know, try the Ho. Want to put on a show, try the Ho. Larry, Mo and Curly Joe always went the Ho.”
There’s more, but I would need a big whiteboard and Microsoft Power Point.
:rofl
LOL
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I got 99 problems but a Ho aint one
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What I don't get is that it takes two to 'HO'. So unless the other guy somehow knows you won't pull the trigger, why do guys go 'head on' and then complain that the other guy shoots?
Lots of guys go for front quarter shots (especially the 20mm equipped aircraft) but they are easily avoided, unless I go head on as well and turn it into a 'HO' shot.
I don't have any problem with it myself, if your tactic to avoid a front quarter pass is to go head on and not pull the trigger you take your chances.
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because this is a game that has a high skill component and HOing is basically one step above ramming with the same level of disregard for your own life and with explicit goal of 'killing' the other guy no matter the cost. It its somewhat valid if you are heavily outnumbered (but you got into that situation) or if you are defending a base against a horde, or if it is a 262, but outside of these very well defined perimeters it is a no skill move.
There is a certain lowering of respect when on the merge where I have often shown multiple moves to 'avoid the ho' there is still the sound of guns blazing as I pass. It does not keep me honest, it does not scare me, it does not show how large your e-peen is it is just a straight up ho. When combined with some of the faster planes like the 51 or the D9, it becomes a style of BnZ that boarders on greifing.
AH is a very challenging game with a lot of depth to it, HOing is an attempt to flatten that learning curve by stopping the fight at the first merge and anyone that justifies it has to use some fancy footwork to make it fit in their world (or just stick their tongue out and not give a damn).
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What I don't get is that it takes two to 'HO'. So unless the other guy somehow knows you won't pull the trigger, why do guys go 'head on' and then complain that the other guy shoots?
Lots of guys go for front quarter shots (especially the 20mm equipped aircraft) but they are easily avoided, unless I go head on as well and turn it into a 'HO' shot.
I don't have any problem with it myself, if your tactic to avoid a front quarter pass is to go head on and not pull the trigger you take your chances.
True that.
Still, in an 1v1 situation, lets say, when a spit16 is firing on me on the first merge, its easy to avoid, even gain some advantage from his struggling for hitting my face. Whats pretty bad, when there are multiple cons are looking for you and instead of a proper "get to his six and kill" they arent even double teaming but just hoing and running 4-5k away before reversing. Or when a real intelligent person in a pony is playing the "i come with alt, take one pass, firing at any given angle then run out from icon distance, get alt and repeat" game. I think its foolish, boring, and pretty damn lame. Its not about anyones skill level but the willing for a fight instead of looking for a victim. There are 99 ways to die, ergo 97 should be more fun and entertaining than the ones listed above
Btw hey Zack, if i were you, i would be "vewwy quiet" in this topic. :old:
;)
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I got 99 problems but a Ho aint one
Ho! Ho!
I never would do such a thing :rofl
a lot :)
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when I first started I used to HO, then as I gained experience I have learned the HO leads to a fight that isnt very fun. I would rather try and get behind, much more fun :salute
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The HO is a 50/50, will I wont I deal. If you lose the HO your in the tower, or you've missed and the other guy has already started his turn on you, gifting him the advantage in an ACM fight.
An experienced HOer might get a few kills purely HOing, but against an experienced ACM guy my money's on him for the overall Kill ratio.
The lazy HOer is only denying himself ACM experience in the long run. Every single person here knows they are up against a good pilot if they are merging with a guns cold aircraft.
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Debrody/Ruah
I totally agree with your views and love nothing more than the 1v1 .. but its a pity though that when being ganged that if seen to be engaged that the gangee's don't but out unless their buddie gets in trouble.. yes wishful thinking I know but as of late it seems to be just a HO'ing gang fest where opponents do try to get the kill at any cost .. I had a 1v1 with Scotch <S> the other night and he kicked my butt, but it was a great fight.
There is one sure thing in all of this .. that if on the merge the guy passes without firing you know your about to have some fun and maybe learn a few things :) and yes the level of respect jumps a few notches :)
I guess what I am saying is if on an opening move the other guy is spraying like a jerk then I will shoot back .. but if your a good stick then I am not gonna HO either because I am here to enjoy the flying and learn some moves along the way ..
I always record my fights with the good sticks and try to look at what I did wrong or right ..
I heard a funny quote about HO'ing tonight .. from a squaddie .. "HO'ing is like wanking, everyone does it but no one admits doing it" :P
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Every single person here knows they are up against a good pilot if they are merging with a guns cold aircraft.
The sad part of this statement is that in the last couple months, I can count on one hand the number of cold merges in Late war....... If the "good pilots" don't know exactly who you are, they go hot on the first merge....
Just my experiences....
:salute
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The sad part of this statement is that in the last couple months, I can count on one hand the number of cold merges in Late war....... If the "good pilots" don't know exactly who you are, they go hot on the first merge....
Just my experiences....
:salute
Mate I hear ya .. is it just me or are 98% of the players now going the HO, I just don't remember it being like this a few years back .. !! or maybe my memory is failing like my eyesight is lol :P
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yups, someone said, "i only fear spits that dont ho". Thats a big truth, better keep it in mind.
The merge tells everything about you. When someone is "spraying like a jerk", he will be dead in 2 turns unless he is running away without any willing to stay and fight. But when a spitty is coming towards me trying to set up a reverse after the first merge, i know i wont last very long.
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yups, someone said, "i only fear spits that dont ho". Thats a big truth, better keep it in mind.
The merge tells everything about you. When someone is "spraying like a jerk", he will be dead in 2 turns unless he is running away without any willing to stay and fight. But when a spitty is coming towards me trying to set up a reverse after the first merge, i know i wont last very long.
A good quote that Debrody ..
Tonight I even tried to turn fight RangerFL in his zero .. dumb I know, but I was so desperate for a good fun fight .. my big 38 lasted longer than I expected .. hehe
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I have nothing against HO except when:
1. players gaming the game by zooming (p38 docet!);
2. most of the fight went without HO and one of the
opponents starts to HO .
:salute
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HO Philosophy?
I ho, therefore I am :old:
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I will kill you as quickly as possible, however possible. The whines are just bonus. Its a game... planes are $15 dollars a month
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HO Philosophy?
I ho, therefore I am :old:
:rofl
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I prefer to HO as it takes all the manoeuvring stuff out of the equation.
Barring a lot of radiator hits in my Tiffie it's a pretty succesful tactic.
One the dumbest statements ever in a game about combat! :rolleyes:
As stated by a few, this is a game, a game about combat. By going for the HO you are looking to avoid any combat <see above quote>. If you don't want to do "all that maneuvering stuff" go play MS Flight Simulator. It is also a sure sign that the player hasn't much skill in combat maneuvering and so rests all his fight on a 50/50 chance.
Personally, a HO is when you FIRE on a head on pass. To me it's a cheap shot and shows no skills as anyone can point and spray. I'll give the other the chance pretty much every time and NOT fire on a head on pass. If they do however, all bets are off and I'm not going to get a "fight" out of the loser anyway and I'll fire any time my guns are pointed at them. They go down, I go down, it doesn't matter. No winner because there wasn't a fight. You may get credit for shooting my plane down, but you didn't beat me.
I had a great fight against RAUH Saturday, I had my pony down to 50 mph in a climbing spiral turn into his torque of his K4. He had more power but couldn't fight through the torque to get the shot. It was 5 minutes long and we never got to finish it as "others" joined the fight. It was a blast, and not a single shot fired on a head on pass by either of us. Well worth my $15 this month.
In the 10+ years I've been here I agree that the frequency of getting HOed has gone up. When this game first started it was a bunch of history buffs looking to re-enact WWII fights and so they fought. You could have a fight with someone be low on fuel and call "bingo" and most guys would send you a <S> and turn off and let you rtb. As the game stayed around longer and longer it came up on the radar of youngsters who where being let out to rome the internet. In comes the players from WOW. A game, surprisingly where you do the same thing over and over again (sounds like a typical NOE horde mission, up hvy, destroy everything, capture, repeat....hmmmm), and a game were being killed off is a small inconvenience and if you respawn quick enough can get back in where you left. Apply that to this game and you have players that see a kill marked on their score sheet as the "end game". Dieing doesn't matter as long as your getting kills racked up. So we get more and more HOs. After all its the quickest easiest way to get a kill. You don't waste any time doing all that maneuvering for a shot stuff. :rolleyes:
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Fug; I dont think its a matter of combat being avoided or not.
You see; HO'ing is "combat" but we cant forget that flying is an art whereas killing is generally the science around here.
So; HO'ing and other tactics that pull you towards getting the 'instant-kill' satisfaction are generally geared towards those who don't want to enjoy getting the most out of the "experience" as it has been designed and just satisfy some lack inside themselves.
This is a common thing in life/etc, it doesn't mean they are bad or wrong, its just the way things are and is a result of the world outside ourselves.
If you think there is too much HO'ing going on, the only way is to lead by example!
:airplane:
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One the dumbest statements ever in a game about combat! :rolleyes:
As stated by a few, this is a game, a game about combat. By going for the HO you are looking to avoid any combat <see above quote>. If you don't want to do "all that maneuvering stuff" go play MS Flight Simulator. It is also a sure sign that the player hasn't much skill in combat maneuvering and so rests all his fight on a 50/50 chance.
Personally, a HO is when you FIRE on a head on pass. To me it's a cheap shot and shows no skills as anyone can point and spray. I'll give the other the chance pretty much every time and NOT fire on a head on pass. If they do however, all bets are off and I'm not going to get a "fight" out of the loser anyway and I'll fire any time my guns are pointed at them. They go down, I go down, it doesn't matter. No winner because there wasn't a fight. You may get credit for shooting my plane down, but you didn't beat me.
I had a great fight against RAUH Saturday, I had my pony down to 50 mph in a climbing spiral turn into his torque of his K4. He had more power but couldn't fight through the torque to get the shot. It was 5 minutes long and we never got to finish it as "others" joined the fight. It was a blast, and not a single shot fired on a head on pass by either of us. Well worth my $15 this month.
In the 10+ years I've been here I agree that the frequency of getting HOed has gone up. When this game first started it was a bunch of history buffs looking to re-enact WWII fights and so they fought. You could have a fight with someone be low on fuel and call "bingo" and most guys would send you a <S> and turn off and let you rtb. As the game stayed around longer and longer it came up on the radar of youngsters who where being let out to rome the internet. In comes the players from WOW. A game, surprisingly where you do the same thing over and over again (sounds like a typical NOE horde mission, up hvy, destroy everything, capture, repeat....hmmmm), and a game were being killed off is a small inconvenience and if you respawn quick enough can get back in where you left. Apply that to this game and you have players that see a kill marked on their score sheet as the "end game". Dieing doesn't matter as long as your getting kills racked up. So we get more and more HOs. After all its the quickest easiest way to get a kill. You don't waste any time doing all that maneuvering for a shot stuff. :rolleyes:
Hmm .. good reply Fugitive :)
If only HTC could award no points to a HO kill it may change things back, but I doubt it :(
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One does not simply HO in Mordor...
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The head on is a tool in the fighter pilot player's toolbox. But it is not the only tool in the box and like a hammer is not suitable substitute for a saw, the head on is not a suitable tool in most cases.
Are you being ganged from above? The head on may be your best bet to cut down enemy numbers while you still have E to work with.
Are you diving in to attack somebody? All the head on will do is throw away your E advantage.
For me, personally, there are only two circumstances I will use the head on as my go to attack.
1) I am being ganged from above and need to cull their numbers fast.
2) My opponent is in an Me262 or Me163. If the Meteor is added it will be on this list too.
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I shot Titanic3 in the face when he first started AH and look where he is now. :devil
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Boy a thread where EVERYONE has an opinion, heres mine. I dont like them but think there are two examples where I dont mind them. #1 when your in an aircraft that has no other choice but to take any shot you can get. Example, B-25-IL2-Bombers.....ect. Or when flying against bombers. #2, When your trying to save troops on the ground and have no choice but to HO an IB fighter who is going to kill them. OH yeah, and a 3rd is when against a 262 or to save a crippled team mate or when "ganged against impossable odds".
The point is HO'ing all the time just isnt any fun. The other day I was in a Yak fighting a Spit-5 with another friendly with me. I refused to get into a slow turn fight with him and he was very good and it took us a while to put him down. Numerous times We both had opportunys for HOs, or semi-HOs, but neither pulled the trigger. The result was a prolonged fight involving 3 fighters with mismatched capabilities where nobody got the "6" of another, long enough for a kill", for about 5 mins. And all because all 3 refused to ruin it with an HO. Now that is "fun".
HO'ing is like vulching. I do it when I have to but as a general rule I avoid it. Ive seen prolonged vulches where a town isnt even touched. Usually I just bail and go try and find a real fight. I dont like doing either, vulching or HO'ing.
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I shot Titanic3 in the face when he first started AH and look where he is now. :devil
You shot my face too. I wasnt happy. Called you to the DA, you said, aye, sure then stayed in the MA and talked crap behind my back.
Why should i forget or forgive this?
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The HO is just the John Wayne merge, Face to Face Guns blazing mono a mono lol.
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To me a merge with no Ho pass is more of respect more or less to say,
"Let's see what you got", makes the fight a lot more fun (especially with
multiple Ho chances but no shots taken).
Why fly 15k to get into a 1 second fight?
I learn from watching movements, not face to face.
Idk, lotta reasons why I don't Ho.
Was a less used shot in AH1 even.
True, was valid in WW2. That being said, I'm sure it wasn't
used nearly as much as it is in AH.
:cheers: Oz
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Will I ho - heck yeah, but only if seriously outnumbered or fighting a 262/163 - otherwise, I tend not to.
Is the way I play for everyone - nope, we all make our own decisions, play our own way. If its a newbie, who ho's every opportunity, good luck to him, if its a vet who ho's continually, he'll get enough grief from other players, or it could be borne out of frustration with being ho'd every other sortie.
Do I have skills? - nah, I play for fun, my version of fun being somewhat masochistic lol.........I'll fight anyone, in anything, win or lose.
Its like Oz said, I wont ho out of respect for my opponent, but, I will expect it every single merge. Some I avoid, some I dont - that part of the equation is purely down to me.
Wurz
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Mate I hear ya .. is it just me or are 98% of the players now going the HO, I just don't remember it being like this a few years back .. !! or maybe my memory is failing like my eyesight is lol :P
It's part of the trend that's been going on for the last few years. I find a good number of your more expereinced sticks spend far less time in the Late MA anymore. You find them practicing in custom arena's, side field of the DA, or TA, for FSO's and scenarios. Not that you don't find HO's in FSO and scenario, but it's far less rampant then in the MA's, like someone mentioned before, you only have 1 life so people tend not to be nearly as risky with their merges.
:salute
BigRat
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I am asking a serious question here, so please no rants or belittling.
I don't understand why a HO upsets so many when:
a. It was used in actual combat
b. Pointing your guns at another opponent is an act of aggression
Its a tactic that for some reason in AH has this whole taboo stigma attached to it and based on point B. if an opponent attempts to point his guns at me, no matter from what direction then I will fire !!
I am also finding on occasion that after checking the film back find that the person making the HO claims actually fired themselves, which is beyond belief .. !!
Would love peoples thoughts :)
NikonGuy
People who like a good fight do not like a ho. When one hos in the game it is a sign they do not have the skill to fight or do not want to learn the skill to fight. The whole fun of the game to many is a good fight.
Anyone in the game from 5 year old to the eldest can ho. To set yourself apart takes learning to actually fight.
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I'm not a very good pilot, but even I know enough that, when I'm fighting multiple cons trying to HO me, the last thing I want to do is go nose to nose with any of them
A couple weeks ago I was in a Mossie VI, turning on the deck with a handful of Navy turny types. Yep, every time one of those idiots would turn into my gunsight I unleashed a stream of lead. I got a nasty little P.M. from one of them crying because I had HO'd him. He recommended that I learn some ACM blah, blah, blah.
I thought to myself, "This dolt is going to insist on going head-on to a Mossie and I'm the one lacking common sense?"
Anyway, had I had any ACM skills at all I wouldn't have found myself turning on the deck with a pack of blue planes. Somehow I managed to make my escape though.
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It's not at all what annoys me the most in a fight as I can avoid most of the head on attacks
the thing that really makes me mad is when people dive in from altitude adv then "extend" towards the ack and you will only see them again when there are 2 more or even when the guy gets his altitude back
When i wasn't dogfighting in this game I didn't think this happened so much but now it simply happens all the time :furious
and yes sometimes I'm stupid enough to follow people to their ack
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A couple weeks ago I was in a Mossie VI, turning on the deck with a handful of Navy turny types. Yep, every time one of those idiots would turn into my gunsight I unleashed a stream of lead. I got a nasty little P.M. from one of them crying because I had HO'd him. He recommended that I learn some ACM blah, blah, blah.
I thought to myself, "This dolt is going to insist on going head-on to a Mossie and I'm the one lacking common sense?"
Anyway, had I had any ACM skills at all I wouldn't have found myself turning on the deck with a pack of blue planes. Somehow I managed to make my escape though.
If you are greatly outnumbered I actually don't see an issue with a ho. He should not have been number 5 or 6 in the fight. :)
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and yes sometimes I'm stupid enough to follow people to their ack
.SlapSomeSenseIntoRaph You do not follow them ¬_¬
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:huh :huh :huh I love Hos! :x :x :x :banana: :banana: :banana:
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(http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/animated%20emoticons/Smile%20Animated%20Emoticons/eat%20sandwich%20and%20drink%20cola.gif)
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Aerial Jousting is Knightly Conduct. :pray
I don't see what the fuzz is all about. It opens you up for a lead turn, so anybody with half a clue about ACM knows they have won the instant somebody comes at them triggerhappy like that.
It's fun though :D
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You shot my face too. I wasnt happy. Called you to the DA, you said, aye, sure then stayed in the MA and talked crap behind my back.
Why should i forget or forgive this?
He HO'd 3 of my kills the other day in the same sortie. :P
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The reason HO's are bad is simple.
1) it demonstrates that 'winning' is more important to you than the actual fight
2) most seem to fly for the fights.
In my view, a HO is a statement that you lack the skills necessary to win a fight without relying on the shell randomization to decide who's 20mm's do more damage. In other words, you really don't care if you're good, you just wanna see your name in lights, or to be able to grab each other's ***es and say 'wtg guys, we took the base! That'll teach them to mess with OUR horde'.
That being said, the THREAT of a HO is a perfectly acceptable tactic, and makes for an effective deterrent.
Basically, you're dumb if you HO:
anything that's packs 30mm's
anything with multiple nose-mounted 20mm's
Il-2's
Unless you are also in a similar ride.
So, a 110 going nose on nose is fine, so long as he intends to merely scare off his opponent, or teach his opponent how bad of a decision going for the HO was if he is fired upon first.
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Since we no longer have Titanic Tuesday, Wishlist HTC for it's replacement.
No HOs Allowed Tuesday.
One night a week the ability to HO is turned off and all the hot sticks can sweep the skys of the skilless HO tardlings. This will show those clueless dweebs what real Aces High ACM is all about dleivered by a master. No more cheap succer punches beating my years of polished SA and ACM.
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Add to that Strategic Choke Hold Wednesday.
HTC has a map with multiple strats in each country that take bomber forces to flatten 100%. But, for each one flattened that country looses late war and mid war fighters, then ordenance, then fuel, then no more resupply. It's the Furballers own fault if they loose their country by not paying attention to the bombers. Screw ACM, wars are won by strategy and the press of a button. Take that you Furballing Dorks. Now show me how bad you are chasing my B29's in a Spit1.
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Then DA MA Thursday.
Only 1 vs 1 fights starting Co-Alt to Merg are allowed anywhere in the MA and HTC hires an army of Moderators to watch the whole map to kill the connections to the game of anyone attempting to gang in, vulch a runway or cherry pick. Initiating or responding to a HO kills your aircraft. Now you will see how Aces High was designed to be really played and who rules this game. Now DIE LIKE A MAN you skilless DWEEB! I have personaly paid 5000 hours of my life in the DA to become this AWSUME.
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And Finaly GV Friday.
Bombing, rocketing or straffing a vehical automaticly kills your aircraft. Now everyone will see that GVing is the single most important part of Aces High and how usless aircraft really are. Hmmm, we need to renegotiate with HTC so only spawn campers can be bombed.
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Thats a great point which makes a lot of sense .. cheers
If I am 1 v 1 against a good stick I wont HO but when I am getting ganged by five F4U's like last night and four of them are HO'ing and when I HO back the fifth, he has a cry and squeakes for 20 mins it sorta gets a little ridiculous.
I used to try to avoid HO's but found I get hit all too often so I may as well get in there with half a chance and hope my guns hit him first
The trick to avoiding the ho is to make them go negative G to get a shot .
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The trick to avoiding the ho is to make them go negative G to get a shot .
Howdy man...Haven't run into you for some time now <S>
I try to avoid most of the time.. however sometimes it is required..... I also find the definition and/or use of the cry to be hard to decipher ..... firing from 1000 out from first contact HO ... extending and coming back to do the same thing HO ...... Ho from from the start...pull and turn back as hard as you can to get face on HO ..... Now if you get into a tight hard turn fight and you are both looking to turn and get an angle advantage (this is MA engagements and when you know there are hostiles coming) if you turn and I have a shot before you get your nose around to a point where you can shoot me I will fire...many times I will be told I am HOing yet I fired before the con has made a full turn (which is high deflection yes but if the con had not pulled so hard around I was on the six)and stop before their nose gets into a firing position as I now need to ensure I keep my angle and avoid a shot from them and prepare to try and gain more advantage..... just because my rounds hit when they consider they had a shot I had actually finished firing.... this is where I find the line to be blurred...... now if it is a true 1v1 and I know my opponent is not taking shots willy nilly those particular shots I hold off on... I still don't believe it to be a HO cause as I say I am going for the kill before you can get around on me...just because your plane can turn on a dime and face off fast doesn't mean I'm hoin... if anything it is the con I am firing at who is setting up for the HO as if they didn't turn all the way back I would still have their six.....
In addition to this I am not immune I do and have HO'ed but it is not my usual game play .... Silat showed me the error of my ways a long time ago .... Don't HO, it is so common I was told ... Escort .... :D
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Fair warning, I only read this last page here.
Tank-Ace makes a good point, but there's a little more to it.
One on one, HOing is just plain stupid, period. That is, unless you just want to see who will win. There is never any kind of guarantee that you will win, it's always 50/50 that the other guy will get lucky enough to kill you. I'm seeing people rolling dice and then complaining about the outcome. I just don't get it. The object here is to get your guns on him without his guns on you. Why would you want his guns on you? Now if for example you've got 5 guys on you at once then you might as well HO. Odds are you're going to have more than one set of guns pointed at you anyway. Bottom line is, you need to fly in such a way that gets your guns on the enemy without his guns on you. I don't mean that you need to do what Raphael said, remember, you need to get guns on the guy. The only way to do that is get in close, try, die, learn, try, die, learn, repeat a few thousand time, and then they won't be able to touch you.
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I think I've been ho'd by most of this forums thousands of posts narcissist tardlings, who preach and spout off various rantings.
Those who still play anyway.
Hopefully though, I have learned by way of research, trial and error and much practice to thwart this mutton-head tactic.
Such a fun game to play, when your heart is banging louder than the buffet n' stall buzzer. But, if you ride the bird with
your chin on the piper, grinning, full zoom and as hard as an adolescent primate. You'd be well to look behind you, because after your initial impotent squirt, that's where you'll find me.
This has been a good thread. Differing opinions, some laughable, others cringeworthy.
I play to fight. With my limited but slowly developing ACM, I try my best to turn ,twist, evade and wiggle my way on to your ass.
I shouldn't really be doing that in a 109F-4, but what the hell. It's my game.
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...HOing is basically one step above ramming with the same level of disregard for your own life and with explicit goal of 'killing' the other guy no matter the cost...
Only problem is that, that describes 95% of the gameplay in the mains, but back to my first point:
"...unless the other guy somehow knows you won't pull the trigger, why do guys go 'head on'..."
In other words if you don't want to be HO'd, don't HO (even if you aren't going to pull the trigger).
And now that I think of it, bailing-bombers and guys augering (ex when taking down radar) just to respawn quicker are far more of an irritant for me.
Anyway, to each his own, I don't have any problem with it. I just don't understand why guys do it but then complain about it when the other guy pulls the trigger.
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I (usually) ahem, dont HO on the Merge on the first pass, after that though its game on. I think HOing is an absolutely legit tactic, especially bombers. Those with pride eventually learn other tactics if they care about getting better IMHO :cheers:
<S> Slipstrm
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(http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/animated%20emoticons/Smile%20Animated%20Emoticons/eat%20sandwich%20and%20drink%20cola.gif)
:rofl
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:rofl
Ill find one with a Pie for you :old:
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:rofl
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn247/Lazymarina/thEmoticon-Pie.gif)
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I'll usually avoid the HO at all costs. Every once in a while I'll oblige the tardlets though. Had a B pony come at me three times the other day with tons of altitude and speed. I avoided all three HOs while thinking to myself "this guy is an idiot." On the fourth pass, I unleashed all 8 of my brownings. Hope he learned something.
I love it when a guy gets the occasional lucky shot when I screw up my timing trying to avoid his HO. I'll call him out on 200 for his tardliness and he'll promptly tell me it was a deflection shot and sometimes threatens to post film. I could care less because I know the ONLY reason it was a "deflection shot" is because I didn't put my nose on him and go toe to toe.
What's really funny is when idiots talk smack about how good they are at HOing as if it takes great skill to get a multiple cannon armed plane and point it straight at some other guy and fire without blinking.
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if it takes great skill to get a multiple cannon armed plane and point it straight at some other guy and fire without blinking.
uhm... well.... this seems to be the name of the game though I think some forget which side of the aircraft they should attempt it at... just saying...
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ho = drag race with brick wall as the finish line
acm = world rally championship
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Re: HO Philosphy
« Reply #46 on: Today at 08:52:18 AM »
Quote
Quote from: auscar on Yesterday at 11:22:47 PM
I prefer to HO as it takes all the manoeuvring stuff out of the equation.
Barring a lot of radiator hits in my Tiffie it's a pretty succesful tactic.
One the dumbest statements ever in a game about combat!
There is a definite lack of understanding of sarcasm in this game.
Yes I HO occasionally, I turn occasionally, and I BNZ ocaasionally usually dependent on what I'm flying.
I probably have the most fun in an FM2 but the lack of climb rate means I'm in trouble against anything that has any sort of vertical ability. Next favourite is a Tiffie and I really don't turn with anything usless I really have to, the thing is a brick compared to most late war planes in a turn especially with a good stick in the other plane. In an FM2 I don't HO very often because I can usually get a better firing solution in a Tiffie I probably do more front quarter shot because if I play with my food too long I lose the advantage. Once you lose the advantage bad things happen.
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.SlapSomeSenseIntoRaph You do not follow them ¬_¬
D: sometimes it's like a drug! I can't avoid it!
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D: sometimes it's like a drug! I can't avoid it!
Addict :banana:
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I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM
I can stop if I want to
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I'm seeing people rolling dice and then complaining about the outcome. I just don't get it
This statement applies to life in its entirety. Not just some head on pass in a game. Is it not true that even in marriage you took a roll of the dice, and will probably complain about the outcome.? Is it not true that everyday you step into a car and drive, your rolling the dice? I once ate a Texas whopper from burger king, an hour later I was complaining about the outcome. Death is the only thing that's final, even if you dive down on an enemy aircraft's 6' your odds are still 50/50 of coming home. You have the advantage for the moment, but until they are dead, you are rolling the dice. I understand HOings unpopular stance, but I also understand it happens, its not going away. So HO on my brother's, because its not the aircraft that needs killing, but the beating heart of the man inside it.
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(http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/I_qfW-xZU39JAY2F-WRG2Q35366/GW600H480)
when someone fly's strait at me and makes no attempt to pull away, I'm usually in a 110, so blasting some dweeb in the face who doesn't know better than to HO (Especially a 110)...Oh well, tough beans. Most HO'ers figure out quick that usually you both die. The system tells both of you, you have been shot down. This was the system discourages the out-right HO. However, it ain't perfect. :airplane:
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W7LPNRICK, I remember I was comming up on you in your 110, and didn't realize we were nose on nose. You fired those damn WGr21's and almost blew my 109 out of the air.
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HoTARDS are the same as the coaches of of my sons' football teams who would teach that "if you don't get caught breaking the rules, you haven't broken the rules", to win at all costs. This ISN'T real life, it's a game of talent and skill, of which HoTARDS have absolutely none. In real life, they take the easy way out, bragging about their "success". They're the Mitt Romneys of the world, often bullies, ALWAYS displaying a lack of ethics.
Often narcissistic, they laud their "skills"(non-existant) and the dubious "fact" that they PWNed their opponent. HoTards are the ones that clog the chat channels with their self aggrandizement serving NO purpose in the game but to annoy those who actually have skill and talent.
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(http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/I_qfW-xZU39JAY2F-WRG2Q35366/GW600H480)
:rofl
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W7LPNRICK, I remember I was comming up on you in your 110, and didn't realize we were nose on nose. You fired those damn WGr21's and almost blew my 109 out of the air.
That's another great story to tell at parties. :aok
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WldWzl likes the ho therefore i dont like him.
nuff said.
Btw: "im going towards you with blazing 30mms and rockets, come, you ho tard"
:rofl
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Depending on the situation Ho is a survival tool, ever fly at 10k and get jumped by a flight of 20k P51s? Yep climb and Ho away, they tend to ignore you after you get the first two, or continue to make 10k dives to pick you, either way I just turn into and HO.
In a normal fight on the deck - more then often I simply ignore Hoing or Ho'ers, simply because I am probably going to die anyway trying to turn fight some buffalo, or get lead to Wirblwinds.
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I shot Titanic3 in the face when he first started AH and look where he is now. :devil
In the ground and on fire? :headscratch:
I HO when I feel like it. Dont expect to ping me on the initial merge and live on the second. If I don't fire on the initial merge, I'm looking for a fight. If I do, break off and kill me in 2 turns, if you still can't, then you deserved to be HOed.
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I am retired Army and a veteran Police officer and the idea of a fair fight is foreign to me. If I encounter a bad guy fair ain't on my mind. I am here to kill you as fast and easy as I can and go home at the end of the day. If I can kill every plane with one HO shot so be it. Any shootout you survive is a good one.
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Only problem is that, that describes 95% of the gameplay in the mains, but back to my first point:
"...unless the other guy somehow knows you won't pull the trigger, why do guys go 'head on'..."
In other words if you don't want to be HO'd, don't HO (even if you aren't going to pull the trigger).
And now that I think of it, bailing-bombers and guys augering (ex when taking down radar) just to respawn quicker are far more of an irritant for me.
Anyway, to each his own, I don't have any problem with it. I just don't understand why guys do it but then complain about it when the other guy pulls the trigger.
Truer words never spoken... If you don't want me to open up on your face the solution is simple... DON'T fly at mine. I would much prefer a "real fight" than a HO but when that's what they wanna do, then they shouldn't whine when they are killed.
Live by the HO die by the Ho!
That said I will gladly face shoot guys when I'm well outnumbered or their skill has left me with no other option for survival (not good sportsmanship but I'll do what I have to when it comes to the crunch)
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That 110 story reminds me of a couple of times I was nose to nose and thought I was on someone's 6.
That happens too.
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Truer words never spoken... If you don't want me to open up on your face the solution is simple... DON'T fly at mine. I would much prefer a "real fight" than a HO but when that's what they wanna do, then they shouldn't whine when they are killed.
Live by the HO die by the Ho!
That said I will gladly face shoot guys when I'm well outnumbered or their skill has left me with no other option for survival (not good sportsmanship but I'll do what I have to when it comes to the crunch)
This is my whole point .. If your going to point your guns at me then I am to presume your going to pull the trigger .. therefore, if I cannot manoeuvre away from it then I too will be pulling the trigger. I may go down but I would like to take you with me :P
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After relentless HOing, and as a former true advocate of HOing as a public service in order to provide the HOed an opportunity to practice HO avoidance.... I've decided that Midway will no longer HO only because it is more fun and challenging to take down a HOer focusing on skill instead and less on luck. :angel:
Please HO me, I don't mind, and rather enjoy downing your HOing behind with a good spanking. :aok
:airplane: - - - :airplane: :joystick:
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You shot my face too. I wasnt happy. Called you to the DA, you said, aye, sure then stayed in the MA and talked crap behind my back.
Why should i forget or forgive this?
Apologies but at that time to be blunt you were not worth the time its different now. ;)
You mad bruh?
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Do you think i was flying differently 7 months ago? I been the same sukky all the way. Heh, decided to take a trip with my ride offline, couldnt even take off. Whatever, weak exuse.
I was mad at you many times and im still pretty much bitter when i see your name. Anyway ill try to step over this bullcrap. Last time we met was fun and its better to keep the better memories and forget the shizz.
Edit: go away and never come back, Midway.
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Do you think i was flying differently 7 months ago? I been the same sukky all the way. Heh, decided to take a trip with my ride offline, couldnt even take off. Whatever, weak exuse.
I was mad at you many times and im pretty much bitter when i see your name. Anyway ill try to step over this bullcrap. Last time we met was fun and its better to keep the better memories and forget the shizz.
:O :headscratch: :frown: I am not as forgiving as Debrody. :cry :bhead
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:O :headscratch: :frown: I am not as forgiving as Debrody. :cry :bhead
Shut up Midway
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Shut up Midway
Yes sir :frown: :cry :salute :rock
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<---- amazed people still reply to Midways trolling.
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HoTARDS are the same as the coaches of of my sons' football teams who would teach that "if you don't get caught breaking the rules, you haven't broken the rules", to win at all costs. This ISN'T real life, it's a game of talent and skill, of which HoTARDS have absolutely none. In real life, they take the easy way out, bragging about their "success". They're the Mitt Romneys of the world, often bullies, ALWAYS displaying a lack of ethics.
Often narcissistic, they laud their "skills"(non-existant) and the dubious "fact" that they PWNed their opponent. HoTards are the ones that clog the chat channels with their self aggrandizement serving NO purpose in the game but to annoy those who actually have skill and talent.
Well, you lost my respect worse than if you'd ho'd, using this as an opportunity to slip in a political cheap shot.
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We need to get some of the CM team, and perhaps Hitech himself in on this.
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Bah, don't HO. Play chess, not checkers.
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2000 hours becomeing a master DA ACM practitoner whom all fear and respect.
3 years playing the game building name recognition for your mastery of a Cartoon World.
Known for landing on average 5 kills per non-rearmed sortie in the meat grinder of the LWMA becasue of your skillz even on a slow night.
10 minutes spent flying to a fight so once again to show a hoard of lesser players your mastery in the Air to Air arts of a Cartoon World. A two week noob HO's you on your first pass 10 minutes and 59 seconds after takoff and you are back in the tower receiving a PM from an unknown nobody noob:
"Learn how to fight you noob!"
Next day you come into this forum to grouse to your Mighty ACM Bretheren becasue you let a noob HO you, the master of ACM.
I'd say that's Pricless.
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Honestly, I think a HO just says you really don't care about the fight, and REALLY don't care about how good you are.
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They are fighting.
They just don't care about all the time you've personaly invested to becoming better than them. Along with your all consuming need to show them that if they would just let you by not HOing. Why let you kill their fun if they can put you out of their misery in one move? They resonably know that you are probably better than them by observing how you fly.
Answering with the altruism about it being to promote some ideal of a better AH is a canard to hide that you simply want them to die like the noobs they are to your awsum skillz. HOing you and winning is like coitus intteruptus when you are realy saddeled in. Just sucks beyond belief. Then you come in here and whine.
Why are they supposd to simply feed themselves futily to you all night long? When did their $14.95 become less than yours? Why do you automaticly assume your time in grade and skillz grants you the right to judge them when they are paying the same entry fee to be here? HTC has no rules about how they should conduct themsleves when it comes to ACM. Show them to me if HTC has published them as part of our customer agreement.
You don't see them in here complaining that you die so easily to their HO?
Why are you in here complaining that they should give you a chance to show tham how good you are if you die so easily to a simple HO? Is there some more training you need to work on before passing judgement on their skillz or lack of?
Isn't this like being in a championship no holds barred cage match fight getting taken out with the first punch, then explaining to the sports reporter on live TV in front of millions you were succer punched when the bell rang?
Ding, Ding.................
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Lol bustr. I wasn't going to sink my time into responding to the temporal black hole that is inevitably any "HO philosphy" thread, but this perspective is just that fabulous. Well put. :aok
:salute
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I don't always agree with Bustr's perspective, but that post is dead on.
I have often wondered the last little while why it is that people who take so much pride in their ACM seem to have so much trouble dealing with the HO. The fight begins before the merge.
Wiley.
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Try intercepting a buff formation at 30k feet head on.
You will find it difficult to get fully HO.
It takes two to HO.
It's that simple.
When you are fighting a HO'er.......just reverse and turn on him.
If you brought a plane that doesn't out turn the non-turning planes of HO'ers, then you brough the wrong plane for the tactics........or the wrong tactics for the plane.
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The fight begins before the merge.
:aok
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Well, Jimson, not that your respect is important to me, Mitt happened to be a perfect example, not for political reasons, but for the fact that he IS a bully. To hold someone down and cut off their hair isn't a prank, it's a dastardly act. GAMES are not only or even firstly about winning, they're about sportsmanship, skill and talent, not necessarily in that order. Hoing as a primary offense shows not only a lack of skill or talent, but a total disregard for sportsmanship. I would rather lose a good fight to a skilled opponent than win one by a cheap HO. I have the respect of quite a few of the best in this game, not for my skill(or lack of it) but for my attitude and my deep regard for GOOD SPORTSMANSHIP. I don't expect respect, i do my best to earn it. So if you're a backer of the Mittster, sorry if the truth offended you. Also, I do tend to go head on at my opponent, as, IMHO, it tends to make quite a few react first, giving me an opportunity to see their maneuver and respond accordingly.
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ew.. politics.
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Yeppers, the Politics of HO.
The Politics of the HO is to convince all new players that a game rule exists which dosen't. Then proceded to use this rule to abuse them at will within the game and in this forum before they realise, even the mightiest of the chosen fail before it's simplicity. Then when asked to produce said rule from the general conduct portion of your basic contractual information with HTC, everyone Bloviates or stands mute. There is no such beast and never has been.
From what I can remember HTC has ruled the HO is part of the game and places no stigma upon the matter.
The only stigma is from the dorks making any excuse they can to explain their lack of skill in keeping a noob from killing them by using it. So far in 13 years all this group of players have come up with is a Politicly Correct Derision Campaign to stigmatise anyone who uses the HO as a valid combat technique.
You ever notice the ones imposing rules that don't exist have the most to loose in their own self esteem?
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It is Ridiculously easy to avoid enemy fire from a HO. Change your angle slew with your rudder and -BAM- you are now some distance of to either right or left..if u get crazy..you could nose up and roll getting the reversal set up quickly.. :O gents..if you die in the Head On Pass its because you let that "no0b" get you
I accept but do not fire on HO. If my opponent doesn't fire either, well then its time to buckle down for a good one. :salute
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Well, Jimson, not that your respect is important to me, Mitt happened to be a perfect example, not for political reasons, but for the fact that he IS a bully. To hold someone down and cut off their hair isn't a prank, it's a dastardly act. GAMES are not only or even firstly about winning, they're about sportsmanship, skill and talent, not necessarily in that order. Hoing as a primary offense shows not only a lack of skill or talent, but a total disregard for sportsmanship. I would rather lose a good fight to a skilled opponent than win one by a cheap HO. I have the respect of quite a few of the best in this game, not for my skill(or lack of it) but for my attitude and my deep regard for GOOD SPORTSMANSHIP. I don't expect respect, i do my best to earn it. So if you're a backer of the Mittster, sorry if the truth offended you. Also, I do tend to go head on at my opponent, as, IMHO, it tends to make quite a few react first, giving me an opportunity to see their maneuver and respond accordingly.
You see Cpprhed, there are political forums where I go to to see this sort of thing.
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Well, Jimson, not that your respect is important to me, Mitt happened to be a perfect example, not for political reasons, but for the fact that he IS a bully. To hold someone down and cut off their hair isn't a prank, it's a dastardly act. GAMES are not only or even firstly about winning, they're about sportsmanship, skill and talent, not necessarily in that order. Hoing as a primary offense shows not only a lack of skill or talent, but a total disregard for sportsmanship. I would rather lose a good fight to a skilled opponent than win one by a cheap HO. I have the respect of quite a few of the best in this game, not for my skill(or lack of it) but for my attitude and my deep regard for GOOD SPORTSMANSHIP. I don't expect respect, i do my best to earn it. So if you're a backer of the Mittster, sorry if the truth offended you. Also, I do tend to go head on at my opponent, as, IMHO, it tends to make quite a few react first, giving me an opportunity to see their maneuver and respond accordingly.
Wrong.... games are about fun. Having "skill" in this game is meaningless.
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Yeppers, the Politics of HO. The Politics of the HO is to convince all new players that a game rule exists which dosen't. Then proceded to use this rule to abuse them at will within the game and in this forum before they realise, even the mightiest of the chosen fail before it's simplicity.
Petty well put ... HO - Philosophy, Politics, how about Psychology?
The HO is an aggressive maneuver, and is employed by both Noob and Veteran Players. I would postulate that the ANTI-HO whiners are less aggressive personalities seeking to attach a STIGMA to aggressive behavior and restrict the amount of it they encounter ... There are certainly Skilled (and well adjusted) Pilots out there who DON'T complain about HOers, they simply TAKE THE OPPROTUNITY presented by a HO attack to gain an advantage and proceed to fight their own fight. It's been my experience that many of the ANTI-HO whiners aren't particularly skilled, they have simply learned one or two attack patterns which they repeatedly employ in hopes of encountering players who don't understand the formula for their maneuver. The Whiners lack the spontaneity and improvisation that are inspired by aggression and seek to deny others those capabilities.
:rolleyes:
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The Whiners lack the spontaneity and improvisation that are inspired by aggression and seek to deny others those capabilities.
* stares at hook *
* swims away *
- oldman
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EVZ,
Are we seasoned citizens making fun of a "Lord of the Flys" soap opra moment these dorks are using to bond with?
I've been informed "Whining" about getting beat in anything now days is the New Equivalent of what we called back in the day: "Sucking it up and acting like a Man".
Wonder what they put on BooBoo's these days? By the sounds of this post, something flower scented from the feminin products side of the Drug Store.
:)
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itt - scrubs defend and rationalize their lack of skill
gg
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itt - scrubs defend and rationalize their lack of skill
gg
Wait, who are you talking about? The guys that face shoot anything they can, or the guys that put themselves in front of the enemy's guns but feel they should be 'home free' because of the orientation of their plane?
Wiley.
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I try to avoid it (unless I were in a 110 or p-38) but things happen. I get irritated when I try to avoid it but the enemy keeps turning in but not enough to complain out loud.
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This thread is funny.
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What Guppy said.
What if we had a rule that when you get towered (die) you cannot reup for 1 hour. How would this effect the game play? I think one of the first things to go out the window would be the HO. Flying would become more timid, you wouldn't up in the face of a horde, etc. I am not advocating this though it gets to the point. In the real world I'm sure some ho'ing happened. I've been told that Chuck Yeager was shot down with a HO shot over Europe. That being said, it was not common. Balance that with Col Eric Hartmann, who shot down over 300 enemy planes, yet in roughly 2/3 of his engagements (sorties where he faced enemy planes) he shot down no one. This means to some degree that the ubber fighter pilot of all fighter pilots used a great deal of caution in his tactics. He made statements about seeing the enemy, being disadvantaged and flying home to fight another day.
Of course this is a game.
The HO was a rarely used tactic in real life and for many, myself included, I dislike the arcade play and prefer realism. The HO shot in general is just offensive to my senses as a scarf wearing, cartoon fighter ace of ill repute. It's the arcade version I dislike. At times it just happens. As I fly AH, rarely but it does. For some sticks, mostly newer ones it is the best way they can get their guns on the red plane. It might be the only way they can do it. They have very few ideas beyond a HO and have never been trained on the most basic manuevers.
That sums it up for me.
Boo
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the guys that put themselves in front of the enemy's guns but feel they should be 'home free' because of the orientation of their plane?
I don't think anyone really feels that way - in MA or scenario combat at least, if you don't make every effort to avoid taking a shot to the face then you're doing it wrong :)
What I was (obviously) pointing out is that this thread is full of weak excuses for the lazy and unskilled. Your comment above just contributes to that. Players who are bad at dogfighting/ACM are defending their crappy flying and desperate attempts to score kills without needing to use their brains or have any skill, with comments like "It was an oft-used tactic in real life", "Everyone HOs me so I'm just returning the favour", "It's the way bad players can get a chance to kill the good ones" and "It's their fault for being in front of me".
This is all well and good if that's the way you want to play the game (personally I can't even understand why someone would subscribe just to fly like that, but to each his own I guess), but it's just lazy and means you'll never improve. I'm a below average fighter pilot but I at least try to get better at the game and don't just fly around with my brain turned off face shooting everything. What we see in this thread is players who suck at the game, don't care to get any better, and are rationalizing their crappy playstyle to make themselves feel better because they know everyone with a modicum of skill holds them in contempt. And deep down, they probably hold themselves in contempt too, otherwise why the attempts to defend HOing and make it out to be something other than what it is? ;o
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EVZ showing up... shining happens... awesomeness floating in the air...
:rolleyes:
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It's been my experience that many of the ANTI-HO whiners aren't particularly skilled, they have simply learned one or two attack patterns which they repeatedly employ in hopes of encountering players who don't understand the formula for their maneuver. The Whiners lack the spontaneity and improvisation that are inspired by aggression and seek to deny others those capabilities.
:rolleyes:
When do you fly? What is your ingame handle? And how much of a spanking do I give you?
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I don't think anyone really feels that way - in MA or scenario combat at least, if you don't make every effort to avoid taking a shot to the face then you're doing it wrong :)
Sure they do. Otherwise, why are they complaining about being HOed? Who else is to blame for putting them in front of the enemy's guns?
What I was (obviously) pointing out is that this thread is full of weak excuses for the lazy and unskilled.
In an online game, that describes the majority of players.
Your comment above just contributes to that. Players who are bad at dogfighting/ACM are defending their crappy flying and desperate attempts to score kills without needing to use their brains or have any skill, with comments like "It was an oft-used tactic in real life", "Everyone HOs me so I'm just returning the favour", "It's the way bad players can get a chance to kill the good ones"
They're all points. Not ones I happen to believe carry much weight, but they're there.
and "It's their fault for being in front of me".
That, however, carries a lot of weight. If someone HOs me, who do I get to blame for putting the plane in the guy's gunsight? I'm pretty sure I'm the only one controlling my plane.
This is all well and good if that's the way you want to play the game (personally I can't even understand why someone would subscribe just to fly like that, but to each his own I guess), but it's just lazy and means you'll never improve.
What is lazy about not giving the guy a decent HO shot in the first place? It's up to you to avoid enemy fire, regardless of where it comes from.
The HO detractors often seem to be saying 'I'm an awesome cartoon pile-it, as long as the enemy doesn't HO me.' ...Well maybe you should devote some of that time you put in learning ACM to 'avoiding the HO'.
I'm a below average fighter pilot but I at least try to get better at the game and don't just fly around with my brain turned off face shooting everything. What we see in this thread is players who suck at the game, don't care to get any better, and are rationalizing their crappy playstyle to make themselves feel better because they know everyone with a modicum of skill holds them in contempt. And deep down, they probably hold themselves in contempt too, otherwise why the attempts to defend HOing and make it out to be something other than what it is? ;o
The way I see it, the people whining about being HOed put their plane in the wrong place at the wrong time, and are seeking justification for being shot down.
Wiley.
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chill wiley...
I never (or very rarely in a ganged situation) seen hoing those who can give me a good fight in 1v1. I think its a decent marker of who is using it.
I dont really like coombzy but i have to respect his way of thinking.
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Boo, head-on attacks were very common, especially for Luftwaffe pilots with their cannon weaponry. You ought to know that, loving the LW rides so much.
Fact of the matter is, the HO is a perfectly normal attack.
Just a HO by itself means nothing. You can't condemn anyone for making a HO run at any point.
However, if you establish a greater pattern it can indicate a larger measure of skill (or lack thereof). If the ONLY thing somebody does is HO and run, to the exclusion of all other manuevers or skills, then yes you may begin to judge them as poorly skilled or lacking in abilities.
Just because somebody HOs doesn't mean this, though. It's if they HO to the exception of all else and never do anything but.
In short, a HO is nothing. It doesn't mean anything by itself (out of context) and it can't be judged as moral/immoral, skilled/skill-less. It's all folks trying to dictate to others how they ought to fly based on arbitrary made-up rules.
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If I have a choice about getting HO'd. I want it to be a sheep with a garter and black fishnets singing "Baby Light My Fire".
But, then this is a game and only a game.
Realism is about $1000 - $3000 per hour and the private ticket and rating to fly it at your local qualified airfeild. You can do it cheaper with a J3 or a Cessna 150. My father died in his 80's with 10k hours as a multi engine commercial instructor. I grew up flying with him. This is only a game in a computer.
Show us the rule from HTC that tells us the HO is bad, wrong, gamey, frowned upon, makes you unnaceptable in the eyes of your peers or is Stricktly Verboten and an action which HTC will respond to punitively. Other wise it is an acceptable tactic in this Cartoon game's play with no consiquences from management. Other than the "Nanny Peer Police's" attempts to define players as bad game citizens for succer punching them in the face in spite of their obvious awsum skillz and technicolor realism imaginations.
It's a canard to infer their lack of training as part of their lesser station of existance in the game contributing to poor game play.
How come with all your well honed years of practice and awsum skillz you let a lesser skilled newbie snuff you with a HO? Who needs some training here? Follow the money, who's doing the complaining about HOing?
Any newbies starting posts complaining about how easy you awsum skillz guys are dieing to their HO's?
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Wiley I already said that if you put yourself in a position to be HO'd you've done something wrong *shrug* I don't know what else to say on the subject.
That doesn't change the fact of what I said - this thread is full of scrub players who can't do anything but HO trying to talk themselves into it somehow being a legit move. Fine if that's all they want from the game, but the rest of us will continue to recognise them for what they are :old:
I usually (not always) manage to avoid them myself, unless it's a 2nd or 3rd con joining the fight that gets me head-on, and by that point I'm usually resigned to death anyway :)
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That doesn't change the fact of what I said - this thread is full of scrub players who can't do anything but HO trying to talk themselves into it somehow being a legit move.
Your comment is so flawed and openly biased that you could say with the exact same certainty that this thread is also full of scrubs who aren't skilled enough to properly HO trying to talk themselves into somehow being skilled.
I'm not saying I think that's true, but your position is flawed and myopic. That position is too narrow-minded to defend itself.
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sometimes a HO is the best option...IE a.....110 vs zero....190 vs a brew ECT ECT
the only time they were used during the war was in situations like this(P40vsZero's)....BUT we are not fighting in a war.... we are playing a COMBAT game
HOing in AH is a 50/50.... takes no skill and if that's all you do..... you are as lame as your "tactic" :aok
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chill wiley...
I never (or very rarely in a ganged situation) seen hoing those who can give me a good fight in 1v1. I think its a decent marker of who is using it.
I dont really like coombzy but i have to respect his way of thinking.
Oh I'm not uptight. :) Agreed, I use it as you describe it above as well. I just think the majority of the time, it's tactically stupid, because you're giving the red guy a shot.
I just think it's silly for people to be whining about something when the solution is within their control.
In the MA, I'm expecting the enemy to do everything in their power to kill me. That includes, but is not limited to:
HOing
Ack dragging
Dragging me to a wirble
Ganging
Alt-monkeying
Flying a speed demon aircraft and running when it's not to their advantage
Main gunning me from a tank if I get into the tank's arc of fire
etc, etc...
To me, the game is about taking the kills I can get in spite of them doing that. It is up to me to set myself and whoever from my side is near me up to prevail over the red guys.
If we're supposed to have a gentleman's agreement not to HO, why don't we have a gentlemen's agreement to only turn left? It's no more of an artificial limitation than the 'no-HO' rule. Why is there not a contingent of players who believe WEP is for skilless noobs, and shouldn't be used by an 'honorable player'?
Wiley.
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sometimes a HO is the best option...IE a.....110 vs zero....190 vs a brew ECT ECT
the only time they were used during the war was in situations like this(P40vsZero's)....BUT we are not fighting in a war.... we are playing a COMBAT game
HOing in AH is an 80/20 in your favor if you know what you're doing.... takes no skill and if that's all you do..... you are as lame as your "tactic" :aok
fixed. :)
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Your comment is so flawed and openly biased that you could say with the exact same certainty that this thread is also full of scrubs who aren't skilled enough to properly HO trying to talk themselves into somehow being skilled.
Never heard of hoing being called a skill. lol
I've always thought that any 5 year old could do just as well. :)
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To Wiley:
Exactly thats keeping me from playing. I got nothing but what you listed except those rare cases when i met a worthy one. Those moments are so much fun but there arent enough from them to counter my 15 bux.
"Gentlements agreement only to turn left"... wrong, plainly stupid comment. For me (and a couple others) the fun is to fly on the edge of the flight model, ergo, turn, scissor, tailwhip, snaproll, go uphill at 70mph... do as complex maneuvers as possible. Hoers (also vulchers, pickers, ball-less runners etc) are playing for the exact opposition: the simplyest way to find a victim. Thats why none of them will ever be able to kill any true dogfighter in 1v1, 5v5 or any possible equal situation. There are just too many of them... way too many.
And yet the "dirty" side wins again. My lord, where this world is headed?
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To Wiley:
Exactly thats keeping me from playing. I got nothing but what you listed except those rare cases when i met a worthy one. Those moments are so much fun but there arent enough from them to counter my 15 bux.
"Gentlements agreement only to turn left"... wrong, plainly stupid comment. For me (and a couple others) the fun is to fly on the edge of the flight model, ergo, turn, scissor, tailwhip, snaproll, go uphill at 70mph... do as complex maneuvers as possible. Hoers (also vulchers, pickers, ball-less runners etc) are playing for the exact opposition: the simplyest way to find a victim. Thats why none of them will ever be able to kill any true dogfighter in 1v1, 5v5 or any possible equal situation. There are just too many of them... way too many.
And yet the "dirty" side wins again. My lord, where this world is headed?
I get so on the edge I catch trees :D
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HoTARDS are the same as the coaches of of my sons' football teams who would teach that "if you don't get caught breaking the rules, you haven't broken the rules", to win at all costs. This ISN'T real life, it's a game of talent and skill, of which HoTARDS have absolutely none. In real life, they take the easy way out, bragging about their "success". They're the Mitt Romneys of the world, often bullies, ALWAYS displaying a lack of ethics.
Often narcissistic, they laud their "skills"(non-existant) and the dubious "fact" that they PWNed their opponent. HoTards are the ones that clog the chat channels with their self aggrandizement serving NO purpose in the game but to annoy those who actually have skill and talent.
WOW! Can That head get through the door? :noid
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sometimes a HO is the best option...IE a.....110 vs zero....190 vs a brew ECT ECT
Not quite... HOs were the prescribed attack method against bombers, but were also used by 109s against P-51s, Jugs, any Soviet fighter, etc... Every plane did it, regardless of relative strength of airframe or of firepower.
It was a common attack.
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To Wiley:
Exactly thats keeping me from playing. I got nothing but what you listed except those rare cases when i met a worthy one. Those moments are so much fun but there arent enough from them to counter my 15 bux.
You and those few other guys like to duel, and that's great. I just don't understand why you expect it to happen in a free for all, sides based combat arena.
"Gentlements agreement only to turn left"... wrong, plainly stupid comment.
What is the difference? If I fly in front of your airplane in planform, you'll take the shot and be all happy and proud of yourself about having gotten that angle. Why does it suddenly become wrong if my nose is pointed vaguely in your direction? It's ridiculous.
Wiley.
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Exactly, its ridiculous. Many of us explained why it is low, lame, pointless... yet you still cant get it. Anyway, i dont care, have fun in your level... If i want an "up-die without any advancad action", i play quake. If you find it more satisfying than a good rolling scissors, thats a thing, not even willing to be better is an other. I got my opinion about your kind.
Btw, i just explained the answer to your question in my previous post, i cant get it why you had to ask it again? Maybe my english is totally useless, idk... my fault.
Here is a non-verbal answer, maybe its easyer to catch: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ve1ptu5opuuqyuc i choose THIS instead of a HO. My 2 cents.
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Many of us explained why it is low, lame, pointless... yet you still cant get it. Anyway, i dont care, have fun in your level... If i want an "up-die without any advancad action", i play quake. If you find it more satisfying than a good rolling scissors, thats a thing, not even willing to be better is an other. I got my opinion about your kind.
That is an extremely snobby and elitist commentary.
There's no way you can explain that a HO is "lame, pointless, low" -- because it's not. That's all your biased opinion. I can explain to you and show how rolling scissors is lame, pointless, and boring as hell (which I do believe), but if I condemn somebody else for doing it it only speaks badly about ME, not about them.
Saying that only makes us judge YOU for being biased, not judge them for the moves they choose in a fight.
If you see my point?
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In the real world I'm sure some ho'ing happened. I've been told that Chuck Yeager was shot down with a HO shot over Europe .... The HO was a rarely used tactic in real life.
It seems VERY FEW people in AH (the forums anyway) understand the development of air tactics and linkage between them and aircraft development. In WWI - Fighter tactics evolved the Dogfight ... Personal Combat between individual aircraft ... HOs were not unheard of, but generally opposing forces had the luxury of maneuvering for position before attacking.
After WWI aircraft development evolved the 100 mph Biplane into the 250 Mph Mono-wing Bombers, and "Pursuit" aircraft that weren't much faster (that's where the -P- prefix comes from). Given the SPEED of an attacker (before RADAR) it was postulated that INTERCEPTION would usually be impossible. Tactics evolved based on CHASING attackers and catching them before they landed. The skirmish's of the Spanish Civil War reflect these tactics.
Radar Changed EVERYTHING ... Pursuit tactics were quickly dumped and interception tactics evolved, the most advanced of which was the English BIG WING Concept. Under it DOGFIGHTING was forbidden, fighters were MASSED and operated under STRICT supervision. It was a monumental failure due to the time factor involved in assembling the required number of aircraft. Lacking any other options during the BOB, the English returned to the tactics of Dogfight and Pursuit, It was left to the Americans to devise the necessary ESCORT TACTICS that strictly forbid DOGFIGHTING and required a positioned defensive posture. This in MANY CASES dictated HOs ...
Since then Planes have gotten faster and tactics have gotten stricter, guns were actually recognised as obsolete and removed ... to be restored only as a psychological element to bolster pilots confidence. Today's fighter tactics rely on LONG RANGE HO attacks with guided missiles.
Anti HO Whiners want to dogfight, they belong in the WWI arena. Meeting the enemy head on is not always the BEST form ... But it's ALWAYS been the MOST common. From Sticks and Stones thru Tanks and Machine Guns.
:rock
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This thread is funny.
Very :aok
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^^^^^ it sure is
simples.....dont get in front of their guns....
your fault if you do
nuff said
<<S>> Jimmy
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When people start talking about what happened in the war....blah blah blah. This is a game and "what happened in the war" has very little relevance here.
It's all in how you like to play the game.
If you like to get kills and don't care about a cartoon death, you HO
If you like dog fighting and pretending your a wwii fighter pilot, you don't.
It is that simple.
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When people start talking about what happened in the war....blah blah blah. This is a game and "what happened in the war" has very little relevance here.
It's all in how you like to play the game.
If you like to get kills and don't care about a cartoon death, you HO
If you like dog fighting and pretending your a wwii fighter pilot, you don't.
It is that simple.
Again more elitist snobbery, no more correct than the others.
If you don't care about death, you don't bother evading when you pick up a tail. You don't look around. You don't pull up when the ground is looming in your viewscreen. You don't shoot your guns. There's tons of stuff you don't do if you don't care about cartoon death. You cannot pin this all on a single minor fraction of all the options available.
And many people that like dogfighting and pretending they're WW2 pilots HO as well.
P.S. You're saying very little relevance in this game, but then claim an elitist high road for those that TRY to recreate historic relevance. Make up your mind and stick to your argument.
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Wiley,
This game and playing it as a game is not the point for those complaining. It's their escape into a fantasy world that operates the way they can't have in real life for a few hours a night. Thus the complaining and "Nanny Peer Police" to force others to comply to their fantasy.
It's a momentairy window looking at the real reason for crying foul to others conduct, assuming superiority becasue of defineing loftier motivations to the reasons for participation with a constant reminder of the differences in their level versus ours. And mistaking a cartoon game for realism and trying to impose personal values on others in a childs game for percieved transgressions.
What they won't do is tell the truth. HTC has no rule against HOing and dosen't care if you get HO'd. You pays your $14.95 and takes your chances in the wolf pit. When you can't take it any longer you stop paying your subscription and leave. Many linger on sniping out a few last vestages of internet revenge against this forum for their own failure to enjoy their AH experience by blaming us, our bad conduct, and lesser skillz for their lost fantasy.
They have no real argument but to Bloviate about higher ideals, superior levels, and our lesser abilities in a childs game populated by adults. Or to organise a "Nanny Peer Police" to punish us by trying to make us beleive we are some how lesser men than them for the way we choose to play in a childs game.
Daddy, Daddy what are you doing on your computer. Nothing, just playing in a childs game. Wow daddy can I play too, I'm a child? No son you aren't quite old enough yet to grasp the complexities of playing in a childs game. You will just run around willy nilly and play like a child upsetting the real order of things. Now run along and play with your games son.
Uh, OK Daddy.... :huh
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I can explain to you and show how rolling scissors is lame, pointless, and boring as hell (which I do believe), but if I condemn somebody else for doing it it only speaks badly about ME, not about them.
I agree about the rolling scissors too and I speak as someone who spent many hours fighting in the DA with nothing much but rolling scissors going on. Whilst it is a fun type of fight to learn, when it becomes all there is in the fight it's boring and so very predictable. So at some point I subconsciously decided to start learning other things.
One of the first things I decided to learn about was the skill of successful sustained turning. I realised that alot of people I was regularly dueling agreed that the few players who had mastered the sustained turn were being lame when they defeated our predictable rolling scissors. So when I had my change of interest highlighted I studied one of these sustained turnign guys and instantly i'm learning new things and suddenly realised it was not a lame thing to do at all, but logical, like any chess player would do to combat the enemies talents. So I ended up with another style to develop and mix in with all the other types of fight I have learned over the years of addiction to this game. We all start flying this game roughly on instinct with 0% knowledge and experience. It is very easy to develope your skills into a pidgeon hole if you don't look around and enjoy the different ways people will try to kill you in the air.
So i think the moral of the story is that by complaining about the enemy's tactics we not only detract from our own enjoyment but we also destroy any paths to self improvement. It does matter who you are or how good you think you are, the most effective pilot is the one who knows the most about our cartoon combat. Someone who springs to mind would be Bruv. He is not perhaps the master of any particular move or tactic, but he has a wide range of experience in what a successfully fighter pilot should do in a very wide range of situations. This makes him one of the most formidable threats you can encounter in the main arenas. It is because he does not put himself in boxes with regard to playing style. There are many players like this, some 'famous' and others far more undiscovered. Some are even discredited for how they play.
As to hoing specifically. I rarely ho in the LWA but sometimes I feel like it and do. I would never HO in a 1 on 1 purely because I don't enjoy it as much but that doesn't mean you can't ho me. If you hate people who HO in the LWA I suggest you give it a try once in a while when the situation demands it. Shaking the dice on a ho every encounter would be boring but no more boring than never shaking the dice.
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To krusty:
"couse i can shout as loud as i can... noone gives a damn about it. I just cant get why noone gives a damn about it."
You talk about snobbery yet you might be the perfect gentleman....
Yea im an elitist from the worst kind and i have the lowest opinion about hoers, just like vulchers, pickers, runners, endless BnZer awesomenesses, double teamers etc. Yes, if i do that, then i hate myself. And aye, in my elitism i respect those who are willing to give each other some quality engagement instead of deciding the outcome of the "fight" (lmao) in a 2 seconds absolutely no skill move.
Am i evil? Yes i am. Throw rocks on me.
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A blonde walks down the street. She sees a banana peel and laments "oh no, i'm gonna slip and fall again!"
The banana is our Head-On. I see lots of blondes here. :neener:
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Debrody, you don't need to insult me via PM and then play the innocent card here in the thread.
The very fact you are so biased you hate people that don't fly the way YOU want them to is a sign of closed mind.
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The very fact you are so biased you hate people that don't fly the way YOU want them to is a sign of closed mind.
Glad you got it.
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Glad you got it.
Sadly, going by your insults via other channels, you did not get it.
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Where i insulted you?
You called some people elitist and snobist here, i told you "i got an opinion about you". Sooo hardcore... anyway, take it as you want, still an 1:1 so idk why you are so upset. At least i wasnt a rat and did not throw it out publically.
:rolleyes:
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Gotta agree with debrody. If you're going to go and throw out personal insults, PM's are better than the general discussion forum.
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He's playing it off as if it was nothing. It was something. Trust me. He further insults me by calling me a rat for pointing out how biased his and fugi's comments were.
Class act. (Not!)
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Again more elitist snobbery, no more correct than the others.
If you don't care about death, you don't bother evading when you pick up a tail. You don't look around. You don't pull up when the ground is looming in your viewscreen. You don't shoot your guns. There's tons of stuff you don't do if you don't care about cartoon death. You cannot pin this all on a single minor fraction of all the options available.
And many people that like dogfighting and pretending they're WW2 pilots HO as well.
P.S. You're saying very little relevance in this game, but then claim an elitist high road for those that TRY to recreate historic relevance. Make up your mind and stick to your argument.
It's not "elitist" at all, I posted a very simple and easy to understand opinion on the "HO Philosphy" as requested.
you go for the HO if all you want is a kill, you don't if you prefer to fight it out. You can twist my words any way you want, but I said what I mean, not what you think I mean.
As for your opinion, I care for yours about as much as you care for mine.
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Krusty, sorry bud, but you really don't have an argument here.
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People are confusing having no respect for the 'skill' of those who can only HO with whining about being HOd
Elitism I guess could be the right word for it even though Krusty is clueless in everything else he said
There are players who have no respect for the 'lowest common denominator' pilots and aspire to get something more from their time playing AH...that's elitism I suppose, looking down on those you feel are inferior
It's not whining, I'd say it's more like pity *shrug*
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Head On shots are just part of this game, get used to it. Just the way it is. :old:
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Head On shots are just part of this game, get used to it. Just the way it is. :old:
^
QFT
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The only players whining about HO's in this forum tend to have thee skillz.
Can anyone find a single post since 1999 in which a noob complains about how easy thee skillz guru's die to the HO?
The HO is the one universal equaliser between noobs and thee skillz gurus in the wolf pit that thee skillz guru cannot 100% bet his cartoon life on always evadeing. Sounds like a Samual Colt moment for the ages and the noobs.
Thee skillz gurus are still bloviating to change the focus of this audience from that fact.
Has HTC ever condemned the HO as part of playing their game in agreement with the "Nanny Peer Police"?
If the HO is this killer of a technique that thee DA skillz gurus are bloviating, whining, and insulting the general game population over it. Maybe they should go back to the DA and spend the same amount of time they did polishing their fancy Rear End skillz, polishing their fancy Front End evading skillz against thee HO.
Daddy, Daddy why are you yelling at your monitor saying a bleeping cowardly bloop shot you in the face? I watched you spend years with your freinds practicing shooting them in the rear from behind. Yes son thats how heros in this game do it. Cowards do it in your face.
Ok Daddy so heros shoot you in the back, cowards in the face. Got it Daddy..... :x
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*shrug* I just think it's a lot simpler to look at the game without all the arbitrary rules and restrictions, and look at it in terms of what the enemy is capable of doing versus what it isn't capable of doing, and acting accordingly. Makes for a lot less stress on my end.
Wiley.
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bustr, while it equalizes (or helps to equalize) the skill difference between noob and veteran pilots, I think the issue is veteran pilots HO'ing because they simply value 'winning' in and of itself above the fight. While its entirely up to them where they derive their pleasure from, I think that if we could replace them with people who care about the fight above winning, the game would be better off in all areas.
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The only players whining about HO's in this forum tend to have thee skillz.
Gee, I wonder if there's a reason for that.
While you're looking up every post from 1999 on, you might notice that those "l33t" piwwets, are the ones helping and encouraging people to get better.
It's not about the kill, (edit) or being killed, it's about the fight.
But since you're just a troll, I'm going to refrain from posting any further.
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Ok Daddy so heros shoot you in the back, cowards in the face. Got it Daddy.....
A Samual Colt manuver for everyone of all ages and skill levels. You obviously spent all your time polishing you rear end skillz and absoluty no time polishing your front end evasion skillz. You have a hole in your skillz that any noob can use to take advantage of you. The horror, Oh thee Horror.
So instead of polishing your front end evasion skillz you wast your time joining the "Nanny Peer Police" to sooth each others smitten front ends while bringing peer preasure against those who practice the Samual Colt manuver.
The Politics of HO.
From: The Great Act of the Arena's.
by: the Unknown Chronicler of Gaming.
Act148, Scene 5, 12th year of the new era.
The Lions Complain to the Arena about the Lambs. Once again the Lions knowing Caesar will ignor their complaints turn to the mob of the circus to plead their case.
Lions: Good people of the empire the Lambs are killing us with a cowardly blow to our sensative noses. This is wrong, abnormal and not the proper order of the universe. It makes the Lambs look cowardly and bad.
Mob: WHY!! You die good. Nice show. Thanks for all the shreiking and blood. Lets hear it for the Lambs!
Lions: You cretins and fools! You are but one step above the food the Lambs are to us. You are unworthy of our magnitiude in your arena.
Mob: Don't let the gates smack your hair rumps on the way out of town. Oh! Hey you are down there in the arena with those Lambs. Hey Lambs!! Smack those Sissy Kities in the nose again. We love the show. Make the big badd kitties shreik again.
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Anyone else notice Bustr's been kinda grumpy lately? I vote we send him a bottle of scotch in the hopes he either drinks himself happy, or passes out. Whatever comes first.
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bustr, while it equalizes (or helps to equalize) the skill difference between noob and veteran pilots, I think the issue is veteran pilots HO'ing because they simply value 'winning' in and of itself above the fight. While its entirely up to them where they derive their pleasure from, I think that if we could replace them with people who care about the fight above winning, the game would be better off in all areas.
If I get HO'ed and wanted to avoid it (i don't want to always) I'm unhappy with myself. Lack of skill on my part not my opponent.
Sometimes I think the so called skilled pilots may need to rethink their tactics. Turn and burn, BnZ, or Ho they are all part of the tactics of this online game and you need to learn to adjust to the tactics. They aren't right or wrong and taking a moral high road because you weren't good enough to get out of the way of the oppositions fire is interesting to see.
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Who cares if its a 'legitimate tactic'. I'm not even saying that it ISN'T. I've ho'd people that do nothing but BnZ from 3k above you, because I got tired of slowly building up E as I avoided their passes. I just went verticle right back at them, and shoved a couple of 30mm's in their stupid faces.
But what I'm saying is that it makes for short, uninteresting fights, and since the majority of players seem to fly for the fights themselves, as opposed to just winning the fights, that means our view is more popular. Since this is an oppinion, and has absolutely NO solid possitions to argue from regarding if one side is 'wrong', its a case of majority wins.
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There is no fix for the use of the Samual Colt manuver in this game. It is the great equaliser. As players grow out of it at their own pace they will use it less as they learn other tactics. Sorry they aren't changing on your busy time schedual to make everything convienint for you. They owe you nothing of the kind since thier $14.95 is as good as yours to HTC.
All of you self appointed keepers of Aces High's virtue are making fools of yourselves by proclaiming your skillz as your justification to judge the conduct of lesser skillz players while whining that they are beating you unfairly with the Samual Colt manuver. So what happened to your superior skillz?
Thats exactly like listening to a cahmpionship fighter on television complain that he was beaten with a succer puch in a no holds barred cage match the moment the bell rang.
You skillz guys are the only ones whining about being beat with the Samual Colt manuver. Must one dang effective way to impose a coitus interruptus maximus on your fun and self esteem.
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There is no fix for the use of the Samual Colt manuver in this game. It is the great equaliser.
How totally wrong.
I can out manouver the HO 95% of the time and usually do but occasionally I'll take it; sometimes because I'm forced into it due to E states or due to multi-con engagements but occasionally out of spite. After sixteen years of perfecting my HO shot I'll win that tactic 80% of the time if not more.
If you really want to HO bring it and we'll see who wins. If I lose I'll try not to complain.
EDIT: As stated many times in the past my guns are generally converged at 400-650 yards and most likely 650 if I'm going to accept a HO. Where are yours? You'll be dead before you stop spraying and praying.
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Its a philosophy?
...No wonder so many do it. ;)
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How totally wrong.
I can out manouver the HO 95% of the time and usually do but occasionally I'll take it; sometimes because I'm forced into it due to E states or due to multi-con engagements but occasionally out of spite. After sixteen years of perfecting my HO shot I'll win that tactic 80% of the time if not more.
If you really want to HO bring it and we'll see who wins. If I lose I'll try not to complain.
EDIT: As stated many times in the past my guns are generally converged at 400-650 yards and most likely 650 if I'm going to accept a HO. Where are yours? You'll be dead before you stop spraying and praying.
The faster you go, the better chances of you winning a HO. My favorite thing to do is HO in a 262 ( although in reality, they never had an equal chance). Come in at 500mph+, fire a 10 round burst at 1000, break off at 800 and watch the other guy fly into your bullets. It's ridiculously easy and hilarious and works everytime. People are so intent on killing your jet that they ignore the bullets.
I turn my tracers off for an even bigger surprise. Nit to mention the first few times you do it, it's adrenaline pumping as hell :aok.
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Not quite... HOs were the prescribed attack method against bombers, but were also used by 109s against P-51s, Jugs, any Soviet fighter, etc... Every plane did it, regardless of relative strength of airframe or of firepower.
It was a common attack.
They also rammed with 109s and 190s. Last ditch effort.
But this is a game where you don't really doe... so why not fight. :)
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They also rammed with 109s and 190s. Last ditch effort.
But this is a game where you don't really doe... so why not fight. :)
HOing and ramming is fun for some people. It is just a game so if they want to have fun that way....great... They're not going to die nor will you....just reup. I have fun with people trying to HO or ram me.... especially as I shoot em down.
If you let them ram or HO you.... well, learn to avoid it....might be fun for you too.
:old: :joystick: :)
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All things being equal, the HO appears to be a 50/50 proposition to the newb as well as some "vets." The frustrated noob may have his .23 k/d ratio in the back of his mind when he HOs, the vet has his 2.0+ k/d somewhere in the back of his. 90% of the time the newb loses after the merge- views, throttle, rudder, flaps=fail. It takes a while to master that stuff. The HO does feel like a stupid, anticlimactic way to end a fight, but my perspective is biased toward vet. I have died once to a HO once in the last tour and remember getting at least two kills. Both kills were out of phase "rudder shots" against slow spits at the top of a rope, while flying an F4U- very safe from my perspective. My point is, if you're expecting the HO every time you're highly unlikely to die from it. Not just that, the vets should be better at the HO than the newb! How is it a vet can complain about a HO? :headscratch:
If you're a "vet" complaining about the tardy equalizing nature of the HO, you're probably still dying from HO attempts. Maybe, just maybe, you're still not "vet" enough... (random subconcious Time magazine reference?) :eek:
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They also rammed with 109s and 190s. Last ditch effort.
But this is a game where you don't really doe... so why not fight. :)
The ramming was limited to specific specially equipped units and really was a last ditch thing. The HOing was standard practice for years.
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Anyone else notice Bustr's been kinda grumpy lately? I vote we send him a bottle of scotch in the hopes he either drinks himself happy, or passes out. Whatever comes first.
Don't send alcohol unless you want more of those long winded self righteous walls of drivel.
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wow this thread is getting pretty heated :rofl :rofl all over CARTOON AIRPLANES. I read somewhere in this thread that the HOers pay their 15 a month just as the rest of us. just my poinion is that they are entitled to do as they please just as the rest of us. I don't HO unless 3v1 or way outnumbered, but thats just me, I like to get into turn fights, the Joe Schmoe hoing may not like to turn fight he likes to ho. different strokes for different folks. dang yall why you guys getting all mad at eachother like a bunch of school yard kids???????? why cant we JUST GET ALONG :rofl :neener: :salute :salute
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Again more elitist snobbery, no more correct than the others.
If you don't care about death, you don't bother evading when you pick up a tail. You don't look around. You don't pull up when the ground is looming in your viewscreen. You don't shoot your guns. There's tons of stuff you don't do if you don't care about cartoon death. You cannot pin this all on a single minor fraction of all the options available.
And many people that like dogfighting and pretending they're WW2 pilots HO as well.
P.S. You're saying very little relevance in this game, but then claim an elitist high road for those that TRY to recreate historic relevance. Make up your mind and stick to your argument.
Ooooo, hey Fugi, now you're an elitist snob. I bet he want tea & crumpets with that... :aok
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Krusty, youre just plainly awesome.
Allright, lets play your game, im taking all your words as the pure truth.
There's no way you can explain that a HO is "lame, pointless, low" -- because it's not. That's all your biased opinion. I can explain to you and show how rolling scissors is lame, pointless, and boring as hell (which I do believe), but if I condemn somebody else for doing it it only speaks badly about ME, not about them.
So hoings is not lame but but rolling scissors is extremely boring. mmmkay, let it be. Please explain it to me what is more exciting in a head on spray than in a 5 minutes scissoring dogfight. Please... My opinion is biased, huh? Of course! How could an opinion not to be biased? I tryed both, yessir, i was a hoing newb too, exactly as long as 3 weeks. That was enough from it and i think i got enough reasons and rights even to form such a biased opinion.
That is an extremely snobby and elitist commentary.
Sure, good Sir, it is. Elitist, huh? Do i think im an elite warrior based on my flying skills? Sure i do, just ask Krupinski, Joachim, Irish, Bighorn, Suns, Spek, Mar, Batfink, Bruv, Latrobe, heck even RedBull or any better stick how they used to pwn me again and again. I got a good reason the be elitist, aye... Snobby? Cuz i respected them instead of "vDALLAS"? I am 21, plz dont even try to tell me who can i respect and who i cant. Cuz i preferred the fights like whats on the film i linked before, instead of the 2 seconds head on? Cuz i thought dogfighting is en elementary part of an air combat game? Cuz i even say my opinion on be BBS about it?
What a mistake... i apologize for being such a worthless person, shame on me.
Still, let me be elitist just a little bit more and serve You an absolutely snobby example: Given 5 hoers and 5 random pilots from the <few/tg/kn/80th/rollinghtunder/39/DFC members or anyone who likes a fight>. Who will win the fight? Why will they win the fight? Maybe they are willing to get better? Maybe air combat maneuvering is superior to hoing? Maybe air combat maneuverers are superior to the hoers? Maybe they are... //whispering it very quietly...// ..."elite" amongst the mob?
;)
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Do i think im an elite warrior based on my flying skills? Sure i do, just ask Krupinski, Joachim, Irish, Bighorn, Suns, Spek, Mar, Batfink, Bruv, Latrobe, heck even RedBull or any better stick how they used to pwn me again and again.
I shall back up this elitist snob-warrior with some of my own very loud and obnoxious chest-thumping. :old:
I have fought sir Debrody many times in the past and beat him mercilessly every time, though taking notice that his skill increased with each encounter, up to a point not too long ago where he handed me my rump at least once by exercising superior control over his aircraft. No man who HO's as a way of fighting could do what this man has done!
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I saw Krusty in the MA last night calling some P51 driver a HO dweeb, so he clearly can't practice what he preaches
he's just kind of a windbag, do what everyone else does and ignore him :aok
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wow this thread is getting pretty heated :rofl :rofl all over CARTOON AIRPLANES. I read somewhere in this thread that the HOers pay their 15 a month just as the rest of us. just my poinion is that they are entitled to do as they please just as the rest of us. I don't HO unless 3v1 or way outnumbered, but thats just me, I like to get into turn fights, the Joe Schmoe hoing may not like to turn fight he likes to ho. different strokes for different folks. dang yall why you guys getting all mad at eachother like a bunch of school yard kids???????? why cant we JUST GET ALONG :rofl :neener: :salute :salute
I'm going to poke you in the eye with a toothpick :P
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nm
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Not quite... HOs were the prescribed attack method against bombers, but were also used by 109s against P-51s, Jugs, any Soviet fighter, etc... Every plane did it, regardless of relative strength of airframe or of firepower.
It was a common attack.
the only accounts I have heard about are the P40's against the Zero's....and attacking bombers head on.....I would be quite surprised to find out they told the 109 pilots to attack a 47 with 8 MG's head on.....the best German pilot was a surprise fighter who 90% of his victims never saw him coming....as far as I knew that's how they were taught.....
I could be wrong
if you could back up what you are saying...I would like to read about it.
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I saw Krusty in the MA last night calling some P51 driver a HO dweeb, so he clearly can't practice what he preaches
he's just kind of a windbag, do what everyone else does and ignore him :aok
For once, we're in agreement.
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Coming from you, tank-ace, I'd take it as a compliment. Knowing your sense of judgement, it just means I'm touching a nerve.
Ink: It was standard. You can see gun cam footage of 109s/190s attacking all kinds of planes from jugs to ponies to bombers. Not just them. US planes did it because of the reach of .50cal guns. LW planes did it because of the hitting power of cannons. Japanese did it simply because that was their style and it wasn't about who had the better guns as much as just getting in the shots regardless.
Even a 7mm round can kill a person in real life.
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The Politics of HO.
From: The Great Act of the Arena's.
by: the Unknown Chronicler of Gaming.
Act148, Scene 5, 12th year of the new era.
The Lions Complain to the Arena about the Lambs. Once again the Lions knowing Caesar will ignore their complaints turn to the mob of the circus to plead their case.
Lions: Good people of the empire the Lambs are killing us with a cowardly blow to our sensitive noses. This is wrong, abnormal and not the proper order of the universe. It makes the Lambs look cowardly and bad.
Mob: WHY!! You die good. Nice show. Thanks for all the shrieking and blood. Lets hear it for the Lambs!
Lions: You cretins and fools! You are but one step above the food the Lambs are to us. You are unworthy of our magnitude in your arena.
Mob: Don't let the gates smack your hairey rumps on the way out of town. Oh! Hey you are down there in the arena with those Lambs. Hey Lambs!! Smack those Sissy Kitties in the nose again. We love the show. Make the big badd kitties shreik again.
This is both hilarious and a bullseye. :lol
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Lest we forget; The lions kill the lambs at a rate of 10 to 1.
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Wow, the topic of HO's pops up again...
It always amazes me how emotional people get about a simple, legitimate, tactic. Particularly when the people who voice their concern the most would seem to be the ones skilled enough to be least affected by it.
I still stand by the idea that the fights in AH benefit greatly from the fact that an HO is possible.
I personally don't use the tactic, as I find it too risky. And it's not something that I would ever teach (it's so simple that it really doesn't need to be taught anyway).
But I certainly don't mind if someone wants to try it against me... And whether my opponent uses the tactic or not I see the fact that it could be used to be immensely important. It keeps the fight "honest".
Removing the HO possibility (either through programming or social stigma) would degrade aerial combat in AH, and make it a sham.
I honestly can't fathom why anyone who values "high quality" fights would speak against it???
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Wow, the topic of HO's pops up again...
It always amazes me how emotional people get about a simple, legitimate, tactic. Particularly when the people who voice their concern the most would seem to be the ones skilled enough to be least affected by it.
I still stand by the idea that the fights in AH benefit greatly from the fact that an HO is possible.
I personally don't use the tactic, as I find it too risky. And it's not something that I would ever teach (it's so simple that it really doesn't need to be taught anyway).
But I certainly don't mind if someone wants to try it against me... And whether my opponent uses the tactic or not I see the fact that it could be used to be immensely important. It keeps the fight "honest".
Removing the HO possibility (either through programming or social stigma) would degrade aerial combat in AH, and make it a sham.
I honestly can't fathom why anyone who values "high quality" fights would speak against it???
I agree completely...keeps a fight honest....anyone who wants to be good will drop the HO as a tactic and learn to use ACM to avoid the possibility of an easy death to a HO shot.....
I find that the HO itself there is nothing wrong with and certain situations it is the best tactic...I will never talk down about someone in a 110...mossie....ect ect Hoing
there is a big difference from a HO and a HO dweeb.....a HO dweeb.... it don't matter what he is flying he will use the HO in all situations, for that is all he knows....like someone in a zero HOing a Hurri2c :rolleyes:
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there is a big difference from a HO and a HO dweeb.....a HO dweeb.... it don't matter what he is flying he will use the HO in all situations, for that is all he knows....like someone in a zero HOing a Hurri2c :rolleyes:
Yeah, but man does it suck to be in that 2C when you're not having a stellar gunnery day, and the guy in the Zeke is. :D
Wiley.
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(http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/animated%20emoticons/Smile%20Animated%20Emoticons/eat%20sandwich%20and%20drink%20cola.gif)
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There is no fix for the use of the Samual Colt manuver in this game. It is the great equaliser.
Although I do accept and respect the observation that people play Aces High for different reasons and that no party is better or more entitled than the other, I don't agree with this comment about the HO being a Samual Colt manoeuvre. If the guns are already drawn and pointed this would be a valid point, however when I see an opponent setting up for the HO in the pre-merge (and at this point the 45s are still holstered) I know he will either be getting shot or running / diving away by merge 2˝ (and sometimes earlier). Offering that illusion of a shot opportunity ensures that after the first merge, the HOer is disadvantaged both in terms of angles AND energy. It's a trap, basically.
I don't complain about people HOing either, but is this ethical of me, when I know I can exploit it so easily? Should I point it out to less experienced players and try to explain about ACM or instead remain silent so I won't be called an elitist or a whiner? I don't lose anything either way.
I was taught in my first week here that the Aces High culture disapproves of the HO. Whether it was used in the war and the debatable effectiveness of it aside I can say one thing with certainty, when I see those tracers flying harmlessly to the side in the first merge, this opponent has indicated to me that he is results-focussed and wants to get a kill and survive above all of anything else. Since I admire skill and courage more than results I would be disinclined to help that player improve and am far more likely to hunt him down and let my guns convey my disapproval.
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Shida, you said it SO well.....
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1. players gaming the game by zooming (p38 docet!);
If I'm picturing your description correctly that's not a HO. That's a rope-a-dope. If you follow an opponent up, and you cannot raise the nose (stall condition) by the time they come back down at you it doesn't matter if they're in your windscreen or not. If you can't get guns, and they can, you walked into a classic trap. And while it wasn't a named maneuver, you can hear interviewed combat vets describe exactly that situation.
Let's forget gameplay and community ethics and talk tactics for a moment. It's a poor tactically to hold yourself in someone elses guns while doing the same, if you have other options. At a merge from long contact going for the HO will generally put that pilot at a maneuver disadvantage after the merge. Also, generally not the best tactic.
That said, when you change the situation to dissimilar aircraft, lets say a typhoon vs spit. The HO becomes higher on the choice list for the typh, because the typh has slim chance in gaining angles in a straight out maneuver fight. And the spit would be foolish not to take that into account at the merge.
Lets change the scenario to 2 typhs. Now we're back to the not so smart dice roll when choosing the HO. However, both tactically should be prepared to maneuver to avoid the HO.
That "come screaming from 5k yards away nose on" is the variety of HO that is generally frowned upon, but in the middle of a furball sometimes it was the only option. It's a valid tactic sometimes, but often it is a poor choice.
I wish I had a film of a fight where a P38 was sneaking up on me as I was shooting down his countryman (I had vulched the 38 about 10 minutes earlier). We ended up in opposing circles, max performing turn nearly colliding and lit each other up. My pilot was killed, and I know his wing was porked because he asked (this was before the collusion messages were implemented) if I got hits on his wing. No whining involved. We ended up neutral position in hard maneuvering and trying to get guns first was the only real option. I didn't call HiTech a HO dweeb because of it :lol
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I don't complain about people HOing either, but is this ethical of me, when I know I can exploit it so easily? Should I point it out to less experienced players and try to explain about ACM or instead remain silent so I won't be called an elitist or a whiner? I don't lose anything either way.
The ethical argument is an odd one, IMO.
If you feel it unethical to exploit the advantages an opponent hands you due to his HO attempt, can I assume you'd also feel it unethical to exploit the advantages he hands you if he makes any other poor tactical decision?
Would you consider it equally unethical to exploit a left roll made by your opponent, when he should have rolled right? Or to exploit the advantage you'd have if he pulls up too early, or too late, or goes up when he should have gone down? Or if he fails to drop flaps (or lift them) when he should? What if his throttle control is horrid, and that gives you an advantage?
Would you exploit it? Belittle him for it? Try to shame him for it?
After all, his intentions in maneuvering are the same in all cases... He's trying to get some rounds into you.
I really do fail to see how "ethics" can be used as an argument here, unless it's in favor of allowing the HO tactic.
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The problem comes in when players lean on the HO as their one and only move. Using "ethics" or belittling" a player is a tool to turn people away from what the "majority" believe as a cheap tactic and hopefully push people into exploring other ways to "win" a fight so as to increase the quality of the fights in the game.
At least that is the way I took it when I came here. "kill macros" were a big thing in AWIII, but when I came here they were frowned upon. Community "pressure" stopped us AW guys from using them. Now I'm thankful it was frowned on. Can you imagine what the text buffer would look like these days with all those kill macros going by WITH all the stuff that we already have? whew! Another folly nipped in the bud.
Shaming a player into NOT using the HO on every pass? I'm ok with that, it will make a better fighter out of him, and increases the chance of me running into some one who fights back.
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I am asking a serious question here, so please no rants or belittling.
I don't understand why a HO upsets so many when:
a. It was used in actual combat
b. Pointing your guns at another opponent is an act of aggression
Its a tactic that for some reason in AH has this whole taboo stigma attached to it and based on point B. if an opponent attempts to point his guns at me, no matter from what direction then I will fire !!
I am also finding on occasion that after checking the film back find that the person making the HO claims actually fired themselves, which is beyond belief .. !!
Would love peoples thoughts :)
NikonGuy
In WW2 In the Pacific the flying tigers used the ho method in the P40 Warhawk so yes it is I fail method
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Code the front silhouette of fighter aircraft as super armored, leave one space about the size of the prop hub as unarmored. Give manned gunners special ammo that pierces this shield.
You can still Ho but you have to place a perfect bullseye for it to be effective.
Problem solved.
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Code the front silhouette of fighter aircraft as super armored, leave one space about the size of the prop hub as unarmored. Give manned gunners special ammo that pierces this shield.
You can still Ho but you have to place a perfect bullseye for it to be effective.
Problem solved.
Gamey crap. Problems created.
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Gamey crap. Problems created.
LOL, guess there is no solution.
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LOL, guess there is no solution.
There is not even a problem.
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The ethical argument is an odd one, IMO.
It's not an 'argument' mtnman, I'm not trying to convince people not to HO if they want to, that's their choice and I suppose on reflection there is a sort of balance here and I shouldn't feel bad about exploiting since I have been taught here that you shouldn't do it.
I was more disagreeing with bustr's Colt merge idea and ruminating on my thoughts over it rather than trying to provide an argument. Like I say, I don't really lose either way.
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nrshida hates anything cowboy related.
Had Bustr referred to it as the "Douglas Fairbanks Maneuver", nrshida would be fully on board.
:neener:
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Code the front silhouette of fighter aircraft as super armored, leave one space about the size of the prop hub as unarmored. Give manned gunners special ammo that pierces this shield.
You can still Ho but you have to place a perfect bullseye for it to be effective.
Problem solved.
Back in AW, there was a system that rejected 97% of HO "hits". This allowed players to be lazy at the merge because they really did not have to guard against a head on shot, which one could argue is a problem if your goal is air combat simulation. Head on attack is a valid tactic, but again the problem arises because many players who should know better still deploy it like a 2 week noob.
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The ethical argument is an odd one, IMO.
If you feel it unethical to exploit the advantages an opponent hands you due to his HO attempt, can I assume you'd also feel it unethical to exploit the advantages he hands you if he makes any other poor tactical decision?
Would you consider it equally unethical to exploit a left roll made by your opponent, when he should have rolled right? Or to exploit the advantage you'd have if he pulls up too early, or too late, or goes up when he should have gone down? Or if he fails to drop flaps (or lift them) when he should? What if his throttle control is horrid, and that gives you an advantage?
Would you exploit it? Belittle him for it? Try to shame him for it?
After all, his intentions in maneuvering are the same in all cases... He's trying to get some rounds into you.
I really do fail to see how "ethics" can be used as an argument here, unless it's in favor of allowing the HO tactic.
You completely missed the point.
Example: A guy who is trying to improve his merge gets advice from someone else who says it's better to turn early. He then encounters me, turns too early and I get right on his six immediately. If he asks how I did it, should I just remain smug and silent, allowing him to believe that he just has no hope of getting to my level, or should I tell him what happened, how to avoid it, etc?
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Yes Mar, that's what I meant. Thank you. :salute
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When you make your credit card contractual agreement with HTC there is no stipulation in it that you will be considered anathma for the use of game tactics other wise than stipulated in that agreement.
Subsiquently as a loosly associated mob, feeling the entitalment of years in grade or elevated skillz. That you have the right to label and harass other customers as bad or lesser men for choosing to play this game differently than what you favor. Based on "No Such Rule" that does not exist in anyone's customer agreement contract with HTC.
Sounds like contractual law "logical nonsense" 101. You have to separate the logic from the nonsense and show a bias for the nonsense. Well gentelemen. At least you are not wearing anything other than the Internet to hide your identities.
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This is a kids game dominated by adults playing in a fish bowl under mob rule. Who seem to not beleive all paying customers $14.95 is as good as their $14.95 becasue of how long they have been associated with this game or based on their AUWSUMMM skillzzz.
So which is it gents. You are better than everyone else because you have been here longer? Or you got the skillz which makes everthing you do and say always right?
Or is everyone's $14.95 exactly equal making everyone's choice to how they play this game exactly equal?
Don't resort to the egalitarian canard of experience or skillz helps you to have a better feel for whats good for the whole community. Thats HTC's job whom we pay the same $14.95 to be the legal responsible party making those decisions. We pay a fee to play a kids game, not to take part in a customer driven group social engineering experiment agianst our will. You are a mob passing judgement on customers not part of your lose affinity group. They pay the same $14.95 as you for how they choose to fly their airplanes and press a button to go piu, piu piu in a cartoon game. You as a collective have mutualy decided that's not good enough.
The "Samual Colt" manuver works, and is a bite when you get caught by it. And it feels so unfair in the face of years of experience or auwsum skillz that you can be stopped with such a simple childs tactic. Do you see anybody but the time in grade and skillz guys complaining about the "Samual Colt" manuver while carrying on a campaign to personaly stigmatize it's users year after year?
As long as HTC does not make it a game offence to use the "Samual Colt" manuver. You as a group are 100% wrong in stigmatising any player for using it in any manner they choose. Your only honest recourse within the rules of the game is to Wishlist HTC for the disabling of the function globaly. Barring that, polish your "Samual Colt" evasion skillz.
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It's not an 'argument' mtnman, I'm not trying to convince people not to HO if they want to, that's their choice and I suppose on reflection there is a sort of balance here and I shouldn't feel bad about exploiting since I have been taught here that you shouldn't do it.
Agreed...
If I felt bad about exploiting an advantage I'd never be able to shoot anyone down, lol!
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Bustr,
since i dont know the AH players personally, i only can judge them by their cartoon acts. Why i shouldnt form an opinion about the ones who arent willing to improve just going for the easyest way to shoot something?
If i am right its a pay to play game, everyone is paying for their fun ergo if someone is trying to ruin your fun you got the rights to tell your opinion on the BBS.
Since there are a couple free "simply piu piu" games around, i think the card what this, otherwise very expensive game has is the complexity of the air combat maneuvering it can offer. If some persons are ignoring this, i think they are degrading this game, what is wrong. Couse up, climb straight to 10k, fly straight to the nearest enemy base then ho the first boogey that comes ahead is definiately degrading the fun, the value of this game.
Dont let me wrong, im not a saint. If someone played the ho-run-repeat game, i hoed him back after the third pass, if many were ganging me and they tryed to shoot my face, i shot back, but in an equal situation, let it be 1v1 or many vs many, nope, thats definiately something to avoid in my book. If i have flown 7-8-10 mins to interact that other person in the cartoon spitty, i prefer that interaction to last as long as possible. If they try to shortcut it, i got the rights to "stigmatize" them cuz in that way i get less action in my flying time ergo less value for my 15 bux, ergo those are stealing my money even if they dont do it directly. Why should i respect them? Why should i care about their opinion about me? In the other hand if someone has the spark of the willing to get better, improve, do complex moves and have fun, i will show him respect. Thats why (i think) some consider me as someone yet many think im a noone.
Flame me, hoin bastages, cheers cartoon pilots.
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The problem comes in when players lean on the HO as their one and only move. Using "ethics" or belittling" a player is a tool to turn people away from what the "majority" believe as a cheap tactic and hopefully push people into exploring other ways to "win" a fight so as to increase the quality of the fights in the game.
At least that is the way I took it when I came here. "kill macros" were a big thing in AWIII, but when I came here they were frowned upon. Community "pressure" stopped us AW guys from using them. Now I'm thankful it was frowned on. Can you imagine what the text buffer would look like these days with all those kill macros going by WITH all the stuff that we already have? whew! Another folly nipped in the bud.
Shaming a player into NOT using the HO on every pass? I'm ok with that, it will make a better fighter out of him, and increases the chance of me running into some one who fights back.
I understand the sentiment; I've just never seen it as effective or realistic.
I've had a fair amount of experience in the game, and have simply never run across an opponent who I felt leaned on the HO as their one and only move. Never. Every single person who's ever attempted an HO on me is willing to turn and try to shoot me from many different angles.
I've also been witness to literally thousands of incidents where someone belittled or attempted to shame someone for using the HO. I've never, however, seen the "belittler" or "shamer" come across looking like anyone worth emulating. IMO, they always come across as whiners at absolute best, but often as loud-mouthed bullies as well. Not any semblance of being a "positive role model" that someone would strive to emulate. (I'm basing this observation on words/text, not skill).
I've also trained GOBS of folks. I've never yet had someone approach me, striving to improve, based on belittling comments they'd gotten. Invariably, they were there looking to improve because they were simply driven to do better. Not because they felt shamed into improving...
And, honestly, I see those who vocally denounce the HO as being responsible for a large part of it's popularity. People are HOing (at least in part) because people tell them not to. Anytime a "dangerous" player admits to being shot down by a "newb" HOing, it makes the HO look effective. That makes people want to try it. It also makes it look like the HO is a way to break into an experienced pilot's armor, so to speak.
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You completely missed the point.
Example: A guy who is trying to improve his merge gets advice from someone else who says it's better to turn early. He then encounters me, turns too early and I get right on his six immediately. If he asks how I did it, should I just remain smug and silent, allowing him to believe that he just has no hope of getting to my level, or should I tell him what happened, how to avoid it, etc?
Yup, I completely missed that point. From the text I read I never realized we were talking about a training session of sorts.
If they ask, sure, I'd always think you should try to help them out with an explanation.
Offering an explanation for every kill I make in the MA, however, might make me appear smug, so I don't do that. I generally don't offer too much unsolicited help or advice in the MA.
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Debrody,
You are irrelavant to the core of this argument. Becasue all of your arguments or answers are always "me" centric and indicate a hostility to anyone you decide is your inferior. That would in spirit describe you as a biased hostile withness, while supporting the assertion of the existance of a group of like minded players in the game via reviewing your past associations for patterns.
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The HO argument is the fundemental right of players who are not like minded to the "time in grade" and "thee skillz" players "loose afilliation group", to play the game in any manner they choose wihout stigma of active social denigration or imposed social engineering.
None in these groups are HTC employees as far as I can determin, so have no authority to interfere with any players choice of playing the game as long as the players adhere to the general conduct clause in the HTC customer contract. HTC has functions in place to report poor conduct and unnamed mods to watch us in the arenas.
There is no HTC game conduct rule that says you cannot point your aircraft to the face of another aircraft and fire at them to your hearts content.
This injustice to the non-like minded players of the afor mentioned "loose associative group" is predicated on 2 lies.
A lie of omission and a premeditated lie.
The lie of ommision is to never tell the target of the denigration that face on shooting aircraft to aircraft is abosolutly acceptable to HTC. And no rule exists to grant moral authority to anyone to adjudicate it in the name of the social health of the game.
The lie of premeditation is to not tell the target of denigration that the manuver is something you personaly dislike and thats why you are denigrating the targeted player opposed to convienient canard, supporting the health of the game. The premeditation of this lie is assuming the mantle of moral authority to justify your action and to hide behind knowing it's a lie.
Show me this rule in writing from HTC:
You cannot point your aircraft to the face of another aircraft and fire at them.
Or knock this off and Wishlist HTC to disable the ability of aircraft to fire their guns when oriented face to face.
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Back in AW, there was a system that rejected 97% of HO "hits". This allowed players to be lazy at the merge because they really did not have to guard against a head on shot, which one could argue is a problem if your goal is air combat simulation. Head on attack is a valid tactic, but again the problem arises because many players who should know better still deploy it like a 2 week noob.
This pretty much covers it! :aok Although Mntman takes it abit farther I agree with both.
In FSO this past Friday I was shot in the face,was I upset,sure but not at the guy who shot me but myself for placing my plane in that position. Admittedly,I didnt see him till the last second I was busy watching the 2 guys chasing me when I looked forward and got whacked.
It's a game,have fun. My mother taught me 2 things,you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar and if you dont have anything good to say dont say anything at all.
:salute
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Allright, i give it up, its totally worthless. I tryed to explain why it might not to be the best for them (fun factor), why its the worst for me (fun factor), at the end im just arguing with myself.
Go Hoers, see how many are standing behind you, have so much "fun". I cant stand you, you can hate me too.
out, DOH.
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Allright, i give it up, its totally worthless. I tryed to explain why it might not to be the best for them (fun factor), why its the worst for me (fun factor), at the end im just arguing with myself.
Go Hoers, see how many are standing behind you, have so much "fun". I cant stand you, you can hate me too.
out, DOH.
:headscratch: :old: :airplane: :airplane: :joystick:
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When you make your credit card contractual agreement with HTC there is no stipulation in it that you will be considered anathma for the use of game tactics other wise than stipulated in that agreement.
Subsiquently as a loosly associated mob, feeling the entitalment of years in grade or elevated skillz. That you have the right to label and harass other customers as bad or lesser men for choosing to play this game differently than what you favor. Based on "No Such Rule" that does not exist in anyone's customer agreement contract with HTC.
Sounds like contractual law "logical nonsense" 101. You have to separate the logic from the nonsense and show a bias for the nonsense. Well gentelemen. At least you are not wearing anything other than the Internet to hide your identities.
#----------------
This is a kids game dominated by adults playing in a fish bowl under mob rule. Who seem to not beleive all paying customers $14.95 is as good as their $14.95 becasue of how long they have been associated with this game or based on their AUWSUMMM skillzzz.
So which is it gents. You are better than everyone else because you have been here longer? Or you got the skillz which makes everthing you do and say always right?
Or is everyone's $14.95 exactly equal making everyone's choice to how they play this game exactly equal?
Don't resort to the egalitarian canard of experience or skillz helps you to have a better feel for whats good for the whole community. Thats HTC's job whom we pay the same $14.95 to be the legal responsible party making those decisions. We pay a fee to play a kids game, not to take part in a customer driven group social engineering experiment agianst our will. You are a mob passing judgement on customers not part of your lose affinity group. They pay the same $14.95 as you for how they choose to fly their airplanes and press a button to go piu, piu piu in a cartoon game. You as a collective have mutualy decided that's not good enough.
The "Samual Colt" manuver works, and is a bite when you get caught by it. And it feels so unfair in the face of years of experience or auwsum skillz that you can be stopped with such a simple childs tactic. Do you see anybody but the time in grade and skillz guys complaining about the "Samual Colt" manuver while carrying on a campaign to personaly stigmatize it's users year after year?
As long as HTC does not make it a game offence to use the "Samual Colt" manuver. You as a group are 100% wrong in stigmatising any player for using it in any manner they choose. Your only honest recourse within the rules of the game is to Wishlist HTC for the disabling of the function globaly. Barring that, polish your "Samual Colt" evasion skillz.
As you pointed out, its a mob so we are playing under "mob rules" as there are no strait forward rules other than "don't be a dick"
The problem comes of there not being a clear majority of one side or the other and so we see this thread rehashed over and over again.
I understand the sentiment; I've just never seen it as effective or realistic.
I've had a fair amount of experience in the game, and have simply never run across an opponent who I felt leaned on the HO as their one and only move. Never. Every single person who's ever attempted an HO on me is willing to turn and try to shoot me from many different angles.
I've also been witness to literally thousands of incidents where someone belittled or attempted to shame someone for using the HO. I've never, however, seen the "belittler" or "shamer" come across looking like anyone worth emulating. IMO, they always come across as whiners at absolute best, but often as loud-mouthed bullies as well. Not any semblance of being a "positive role model" that someone would strive to emulate. (I'm basing this observation on words/text, not skill).
I've also trained GOBS of folks. I've never yet had someone approach me, striving to improve, based on belittling comments they'd gotten. Invariably, they were there looking to improve because they were simply driven to do better. Not because they felt shamed into improving...
And, honestly, I see those who vocally denounce the HO as being responsible for a large part of it's popularity. People are HOing (at least in part) because people tell them not to. Anytime a "dangerous" player admits to being shot down by a "newb" HOing, it makes the HO look effective. That makes people want to try it. It also makes it look like the HO is a way to break into an experienced pilot's armor, so to speak.
then you must be killing them on the first pass :D Even those with more "E" will chop their throttle to make the turn that I have no real choice to make to get in my face. With their E they could easily add a vertical element to there turn and drop in behind my 3-9 line a take a good shot but in stead will blow their E to get in my face for the shot. If that isn't doing the same HO maneuver time after time I don't know what is.
A plyer learning to get better will try the vert move to get behind the 3-9 line, a person leaning on the HO crutch will blow the E for the HO shot. That the difference.
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then you must be killing them on the first pass :D Even those with more "E" will chop their throttle to make the turn that I have no real choice to make to get in my face. With their E they could easily add a vertical element to there turn and drop in behind my 3-9 line a take a good shot but in stead will blow their E to get in my face for the shot. If that isn't doing the same HO maneuver time after time I don't know what is.
A plyer learning to get better will try the vert move to get behind the 3-9 line, a person leaning on the HO crutch will blow the E for the HO shot. That the difference.
So, are you saying that these folks wouldn't try to shoot you from a different angle? Or that if they couldn't shoot you in the face they'd pass on the shot and wait for an HO opportunity?
My stomach hurts from the "crutch" comment, lol! That's funny. the HO isn't effective enough on an experienced pilot to be considered any sort of crutch.
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What I'm saying, as an experienced cartoon pilot, if I have more E than the guy I'm fighting I'm NOT going to do everything I can do to pull around and shoot the guy in the face. As a more "experienced cartoon pilot" I will add a vertical element to my attack USING the extra E I have over the other guy and get be hind his 3-9 line (where is is safe from his guns) to set up my shot.
Someone less experienced, or stuck in there learning and leaning on the only real maneuver they know.... the HO doesn't do this, nor do they think to try this. They do everything they can to get there nose around and shoot the other guy in the face. So no, they DON"T TRY to shoot you from a different angle, because they only know one angle, strait on, guns blazing.
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What I'm saying, as an experienced cartoon pilot, if I have more E than the guy I'm fighting I'm NOT going to do everything I can do to pull around and shoot the guy in the face. As a more "experienced cartoon pilot" I will add a vertical element to my attack USING the extra E I have over the other guy and get be hind his 3-9 line (where is is safe from his guns) to set up my shot.
Someone less experienced, or stuck in there learning and leaning on the only real maneuver they know.... the HO doesn't do this, nor do they think to try this. They do everything they can to get there nose around and shoot the other guy in the face. So no, they DON"T TRY to shoot you from a different angle, because they only know one angle, strait on, guns blazing.
for the noobs I don't think its so much they want to shoot you in the "face", I think its just the simple fact that they want to put guns on you and fire and get a kill....it don't matter to them where the bullets land or that they may be in your sights.....
as someone learns more....that there is something called ACM.......but still relies on the HO.... that's where the issues are and when they become tards and should be laughed at :D
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TAKES TWO TO HO, don't want to be HO'd break off and I will then get on your 6.
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What's being rehased is human nature in the face of near complete freedom and the perception that a social control vacume exists.
Outside of Special Events, there is no need for player imposed game play controls other than players playing in any manner they choose to create opportunities to have fun. If you don't like the fun in one location go make your own fun in another.
Don't decide unilateraly for the good of the game or your personal orientation to the game an unofficial Game Play Peer Police group is needed to make sure everyones fun meets some arbitrary criterions set by you. There is no statement to that in our customer agreement with HTC as a condition to play this game that we will have our fun imposed upon us by the unofficial Game Play Peer Police.
Nothing is broken. Only personal perceptions that something is broken by people who look for excuses to declair something broken. Then leverage that as a platform to build coalitions around to weild social power where non is needed or wanted. Even if it's indirectly enforced through soft tyranny by socialy stigmatising the targeted individuals or groups. It's not in the contract any paying customer enters into with HTC to have imposed on them. Verbal insults are expected in combat games like this with the high spirits it induces. Long term soft tyranny is called bullying in the real world and begining to be taken very seriously in the real world.
All players have the right to be left alone by you HO nannies and correct game play nannies at all times free of any kind of retributive conduct or communications. HTC has rules in place for unacceptable verbal conduct other wise.
Their $14.95 a month contract with HTC protects that expectation. If they choose at some time in the future to enjoy your suggestions to another way to play the game. That's their right to investigate what you have to offer. But, untill then, leave them alone and cut out the denigrating bulling against them for shooting at other aircraft when oriented face to face. Or for not aspiring to your vauge visions of the only true way to play this game.
The conduct of the HO Nannies and Game Play Peer Police that I've watched for a decade now boarders on the description of a hostile workplace in spirit, IF, one didn't understand the relationship of blow over from the arenas to this forum by the culture practiced in this game.
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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cry :cry Everybody ho,s...................sometimes! :rofl :lol :furious :furious :furious :furious
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drivel drivel drivel
How late do you stay up at night coming up with this stuff trying to sound smart?
The simple fact of the matter is the HO is a losing proposition. Except in very specific conditions if the person who HO's does try to fight afterward rather than simply running away they've just given away the fight.
Should we all stand by and tell them they're doing a good job? WTG?
Frankly, the ridicule of this tactic does more for the HOers development in the game than it does harm to their egos. We all know that eventually the light will come on and they'll grow out of the HO. I see no problem with the community hastening the process. I've seen many habitual HOers change over the years including myself. Some of their own accord, some due to ridicule.
Of couse maybe you're just one of those guys who would rather keep them clueless to give you some type of advantage. As trainers have stated here they don't teach the HO. My guess is you'll never be a trainer.
As far as encouraging a tactic doomed to fail over the long term, WTG! After all there's no rules against it and it's their $14.95 until they get frustrated and quit and then it's really their $14.95. Unfortunately at that point it's our loss.
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Bustr's posts are starting to feel like a HO to me. So many words, fired with such vitriolic righteousness and indignation at such a range and yet somehow he keeps missing the target!
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Bustr's posts are starting to feel like a HO to me. So many words, fired with such vitriolic righteousness and indignation at such a range and yet somehow he keeps missing the target!
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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TAKES TWO TO HO, don't want to be HO'd break off and I will then get on your 6.
Perfect example of what Ink was talking about. More expirienced pilot, knows about ACM, but then uses the HO and says "You either let the shell randomization determin who wins this one, or let me get on your 6".
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Bustr's posts are starting to feel like a HO to me. So many words, fired with such vitriolic righteousness and indignation at such a range and yet somehow he keeps missing the target!
Hitech, I propose we give nrshida the 'On snap!' award :lol.
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excessive verbosity != intelligence
bustr tries so hard
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Bustr's posts are starting to feel like a HO to me. So many words, fired with such vitriolic righteousness and indignation at such a range and yet somehow he keeps missing the target!
:aok
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What I'm saying, as an experienced cartoon pilot, if I have more E than the guy I'm fighting I'm NOT going to do everything I can do to pull around and shoot the guy in the face. As a more "experienced cartoon pilot" I will add a vertical element to my attack USING the extra E I have over the other guy and get be hind his 3-9 line (where is is safe from his guns) to set up my shot.
Someone less experienced, or stuck in there learning and leaning on the only real maneuver they know.... the HO doesn't do this, nor do they think to try this. They do everything they can to get there nose around and shoot the other guy in the face. So no, they DON"T TRY to shoot you from a different angle, because they only know one angle, strait on, guns blazing.
This description does not sound like they're using the HO as a "primary tactic" to me. It sounds like they simply want to get guns on you. I don't see any evidence that they actually want to shoot you in the face at all.
They're just maneuvering to get guns on you, and due to you doing the same, you arrive at a near HO situation.
The Ho shot isn't the goal, it's the outcome.
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In the same realm of this topic is the vulch, I came up with a working definition last night in game. It is meant to be silly so enjoy!
The one being vulched:
One who places themselves in a position where there is a significant chance that they will be killed and choose to whine about it after the event. For instance, taking off from a field fully capped by the enemy and expecting different results after being killed.
- Some always complain when killed.
- Some choose to place themselves in positions where there is a high possibility of being killed.
Hey it is a game and their $ so that is just their way. :lol
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In WW2 In the Pacific the flying tigers used the ho method in the P40 Warhawk so yes it is a fair method
that is what I meant to say
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<S> NikonGuy my philosophy on the HO shot is that, even though it was used in WW2, it surely wasnt taught in academy to go nose to nose with another flying weapon platform, if you could help it. its 50/50 in our cartoon game and real life. also, in game we arent faced with the threat of losing a real war for real countries to hitler. the fliers in WW2 had to be desperate and take that HO shot if they had it. we dont have to be that desperate for a kill, we can take the chance and try out flying the red icons. personally, i like the idea of trying to out think the other guy, using the machine im flying, to its strengths. im 5 months into my game, i hoed the first two weeks, but when a good stick came around, i couldnt outfly him/her. since then, im at the progression of my game, that i pick my fights according to my best advantage, when i can. that means not bein the middle of any type of furball. instead, pick the pickers using advantage and acm, might accidentally find a good fight this way too. or, maybe pick the cap vulch at your friendly base, give your guys a chance to up if they dare. basically going full on double tactical rainbow. by finding the fight i want, i seem to be dying a lot less from HO shots. :rock
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Wow, the topic of HO's pops up again...
It always amazes me how emotional people get about a simple, legitimate, tactic. Particularly when the people who voice their concern the most would seem to be the ones skilled enough to be least affected by it.
I still stand by the idea that the fights in AH benefit greatly from the fact that an HO is possible.
I personally don't use the tactic, as I find it too risky. And it's not something that I would ever teach (it's so simple that it really doesn't need to be taught anyway).
But I certainly don't mind if someone wants to try it against me... And whether my opponent uses the tactic or not I see the fact that it could be used to be immensely important. It keeps the fight "honest".
Removing the HO possibility (either through programming or social stigma) would degrade aerial combat in AH, and make it a sham.
I honestly can't fathom why anyone who values "high quality" fights would speak against it???
Calm down... don't get so emotional. :neener:
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Calm down... don't get so emotional. :neener:
You sir, have a rare gift!
I've never seen one of my posts summarized so succinctly.
:aok
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Out of game. The Ho is nothing more than mental aggression . and should be defended against. :devil
In game it should be defended against. :devil
I welcome a ho attack in game as i am not that good and it allows me to club baby seals.
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I cannot name 1 person that will not ho on first pass.
Plain and simple if I could remember 1 person that does not Ho - then I would praise that person with a free account.
not one person.
/Who cares, people pay to Ho.
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I cannot name 1 person that will not ho on first pass.
Plain and simple if I could remember 1 person that does not Ho - then I would praise that person with a free account.
not one person.
/Who cares, people pay to Ho.
Midway does not HO because Midway is guaranteed to NOMOHO. :aok
But I don't want the free account. :)
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I cannot name 1 person that will not ho on first pass.
Plain and simple if I could remember 1 person that does not Ho - then I would praise that person with a free account.
not one person.
/Who cares, people pay to Ho.
So...will you send the check directly to HTC...?
- oldman
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I am asking a serious question here, so please no rants or belittling.
I don't understand why a HO upsets so many when:
a. It was used in actual combat
b. Pointing your guns at another opponent is an act of aggression
Its a tactic that for some reason in AH has this whole taboo stigma attached to it and based on point B. if an opponent attempts to point his guns at me, no matter from what direction then I will fire !!
I am also finding on occasion that after checking the film back find that the person making the HO claims actually fired themselves, which is beyond belief .. !!
Would love peoples thoughts :)
NikonGuy
Cause any time that stupid people go nose to nose for a HO shot 90% of the time it ends in a mid air. They don't make sense to me either, the 6 O' clock position seems better and my six 50s and fragile P-51 is not a match head on to cannon armed fighters. Most my kills are maneuvering and yea ill say it, picks and BnZ. Head on shots to me are just a bad idea for most aircraft.
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So...will you send the check directly to HTC...?
- oldman
Ditto!
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I been a bad bad boy. I figured if someone is stupid enough to come right at me nose to nose & doesn't pull away in my 110, BrBrBrBrBrBrp! 30mm's poof! if they are in a KI, or Nikki, I know they're going to out maneuver me or catch me on my 6, so even if they pull away, I try to snap shoot them on the way by. Poof, usually 1 round slop shot will do it. How many times do you get a ball in on the break? or the 8 ball? I'm bad :uhoh :noid
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I been a bad bad boy. I figured if someone is stupid enough to come right at me nose to nose & doesn't pull away in my 110, BrBrBrBrBrBrp! 30mm's poof! if they are in a KI, or Nikki, I know they're going to out maneuver me or catch me on my 6, so even if they pull away, I try to snap shoot them on the way by. Poof, usually 1 round slop shot will do it. How many times do you get a ball in on the break? or the 8 ball? I'm bad :uhoh :noid
in this situation a HO is perfectly legit shot, would never down a guy in a 110 hoin.... :aok
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Head On Passes were used in combat so can we Please Move on Thank you very much :mad:
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Head On Passes were used in combat so can we Please Move on Thank you very much :mad:
this isn't real life, can you get a clue?
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Must be an election year.
Let me translate:
My fellow players if nominated to run for "Game Nanny in Cheif", I will have one sinple plank in my platform aside from reshaping this game in my own image.
I promise to engage with HTC and force them to impose a life time ban on any player who initates the HO.
Thank you for considering me for "Game Nanny in Cheif" my fellow players who love a clean, structered and orderly game which I will work towards imposing upon the rest of the player community in your name.
Now get in line for your autographed copies of my artwork all my loving and adoring fans. Yesss, I will bring order to the masses.
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Head On Passes were used in combat so can we Please Move on Thank you very much :mad:
Sure... in real combat when you died you were gone forever.... will you follow suit since it was "how it was"? :neener:
When you ho and die you have to leave the game. :D
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All of you anti-HO Party fanatics, please remember that when you are diving on my B-17, you are always committing a HO offense and should break off your run forthwith!
:neener:
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I HO'd a guy last night. He decided to give my IL-2 a try with his P-38. :rofl
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I love it when someone does that....poof! :D