Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: earl1937 on June 04, 2012, 04:15:47 PM
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Hi Tech, would you please adjust the bomber rankings to reflect what a Aces High member actually does in a bomber, i.e., damage and destroy objects on the ground. One of my squad mates, who is a excellent bomber pilot and who had over 13 million damage points in the last tour, yet he only finished 48th! He also had base captures and resupply runs, which in my view has no bearing on how good a bomber pilot in this game is!
You have rankings in a lot of different categories and I don't think it would be a big thing to add a winner for most damage points in a bomber. I realize that there would be members who do nothing but run bombers all the time, but so what? If a person in this game works hard and pratices his bombing and flies 150 sorties in one tour, there is no good reason he or she should not be recognized for their hard work.
What do you guys in here think?
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean...
Damage to objects is THE major component of bomber score, by a) counting damage points directly as a scoring category and b) by being the main part of damage/death and damage/sortie categories.
The only category not related to hitting ground structures is "base captures", which makes up 1/5th of your bomber score...
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What does he bomb?
He may be suffering if he is bombing useful things and not town centers.
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean...
Damage to objects is THE major component of bomber score, by a) counting damage points directly as a scoring category and b) by being the main part of damage/death and damage/sortie categories.
The only category not related to hitting ground structures is "base captures", which makes up 1/5th of your bomber score...
The squaddie had more than 13 million damage points in this last tour, are you saying that since he finished 48th, 47 more members had more than 13 million damage points? And why in the world would you judge a bomber pilot on how many base captures he had? That has nothing to do with his skill as a bomber pilot!
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By the way... being 48th in bombers meant a better rank then 98.5% of all bomber pilots in tour 148. Not exactly being a "loser". So it's a bit exaggerated to say his work wasn't recognized. ;)
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What does he bomb?
He may be suffering if he is bombing useful things and not town centers.
We are a base capturing squad and we run missions every day of the week, 365 days a year, and we attack every avaiable target which Aces High offers! He is just not a town center bomber pilot. If I have a tough target to hit and we have a bad angle, I can count on him to "kill" the hangar or what ever.
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By the way... being 48th in bombers meant a better rank then 98.5% of all bomber pilots in tour 148. Not exactly being a "loser". So it's a bit exaggerated to say his work wasn't recognized. ;)
I have only been in this game about a year and a half, so still learning a lot of ins and outs to scoring and etc. Not really complaining, just wondering I guess!
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One B-29 with 40x 500lb bombs can take a rank from 0 to under 50 in one sortie.
Rank means nothing.
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We are a base capturing squad and we run missions every day of the week, 365 days a year, and we attack every avaiable target which Aces High offers! He is just not a town center bomber pilot. If I have a tough target to hit and we have a bad angle, I can count on him to "kill" the hangar or what ever.
Unless I am gravely mistaken, in which case Lusche will correct me, bombing town centers drives up one's hit percentage, greatly assisting in getting an overall high score. This is pretty sad as it is a generally useless thing to do in terms of helping the war effort.
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I am confused, because the person that finished 48th in bombing, last tour, had 3.8 million damage points in the bomber category, in 83 sorties. The number one person had 6.5 million damage points.
I cannot find anyone who had 13 million damage points in the bomber category.
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On another note, if bomber rank was about damage points only, 13 million points would still not have been enough for #1 in tour 148. The best player int hat category had almost 42 million points, 13 million would barely break the top 20.
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II cannot find anyone who had 13 million damage points in the bomber category.
404a
DHawk
vALIBABA
bombud
Cane
:)
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Geez, see there. Just because I wrote the score and rank scripts does not mean I know how to use them. :D
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:lol
Now why do you think I use my own? :noid :P :bolt:
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Earl do you understand how the ranking works?
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See rule #4
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:lol
Now why do you think I use my own? :noid :P :bolt:
What kind of damage would I do if I changed the output format? Which of our scripts do you depend on?
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Earl do you understand how the ranking works?
not really, but really don't care! All I am interested in is how effective my bomber pilots in my squad are in hitting targets and really that's all that should matter when it comes to ranking a bomber pilot. Every time I hear that base captures makes up 1/5 of bomber rankings, I think of K. Campbell, a B-29 pilot in the Southwest Pacific area of operations, a short, hvy fellow, and I can see his face now, when he is told in order to get your proper reward as a bomber pilot, you must drive a jeep full of troops up Mt. Serbaci(spelling) on Iwo Jima before we could capture the island! Just my personal feelings on the matter.
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Town Center being the most lucrative target ENSURES that every single town on the front will always be out of sync... this keeps maps from being rolled even faster than they already are =)
It would be nice to see targets that mean something be worth more, i.e., hangars, ammo, fuel, etc...
But I guess I get why they do what they do...
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I like to hit ords on my own. Its the only way to slow down the horde and I get to use my favorite bombers to do it. KI-67-AR-234-Mossie. Dont even bother checking scores, cause who cares anyways? Fly the bombers the way YOU want and get personal satisfaction. I agree such targets should get more score recognition but dont really care if they do.
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I like to hit ords on my own. Its the only way to slow down the horde and I get to use my favorite bombers to do it. KI-67-AR-234-Mossie. Dont even bother checking scores, cause who cares anyways? Fly the bombers the way YOU want and get personal satisfaction. I agree such targets should get more score recognition but dont really care if they do.
I am REALLY digging the Ki-67... although I usually try to hit a string of bases and by the time I have had my fill of fun, there are enough cons co-alt that are faster than the Dragon... fast as she may be... and there's only so much 20mm loving to go around.
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not really, but really don't care! All I am interested in is how effective my bomber pilots in my squad are in hitting targets and really that's all that should matter when it comes to ranking a bomber pilot. Every time I hear that base captures makes up 1/5 of bomber rankings, I think of K. Campbell, a B-29 pilot in the Southwest Pacific area of operations, a short, hvy fellow, and I can see his face now, when he is told in order to get your proper reward as a bomber pilot, you must drive a jeep full of troops up Mt. Serbaci(spelling) on Iwo Jima before we could capture the island! Just my personal feelings on the matter.
Then you shouldn't be looking at ranks or even scores for that matter. Total points and percentage of each player is ok as long as you only compare them to the same players numbers. When you start looking at it through the score system is is easily twisted.
Bomber scoring has 5 categories,
Damage per Death
This is how many points you are awarded per death. Total number of points averaged out over how many deaths +1 (the +1 is because you can't divide zero so everyone gets 1 death). You lose 2 ship in your formation and land the final one you will be charged with 2 deaths.
Damage per Sortie
Damage points awarded per sortie is the same, but its an average of all of your sorties +1. For a formation, you are charged 3 sorties.
Damage Hit Percentage
This is how well you "hit/miss" It is also the one that people love to tweak. If you drop 3k on a hanger and get it you have 100% hit. If you drop the same 3k on the town center you have closer to 2000% hit. The reason being is with the hanger you got 1 object, with the town you got 12 buildings and 2 guns.... or something like that. The numbers may not be right, but you get the idea. Bigger percentage is due to taking down more objects.
Damage Points
total damage points awarded from all of your runs.
Field Captures
Well they had to put it some place :D
If you look at these separately you can see if the player is getting better, hitting smarter, or the opposite. If you add in the ranking, or comparing the points with other players you will have issues. The reason is the system is set up so that a player that only plays a few hours can be ranked closer to a player that plays a hundred hours. If I only make a few runs, but I hit lots of buildings and basically never miss my hit% will be high and my damage per death will be high as well as my damage per sortie. A player who plays alot that doesn't have as good an aim will most likely be shot down more often, have a lower hit%, lower damage per death, lower damage per sortie, but with have a very high total damage points number. Whos the better bomber pilot?
It's had to tell. So HTC totals each category, and then places them from the best to the worst of everyone that plays. Then they take the total of all the categories and and do the same thing listing them from best to worst. This is how each player is ranked. So while some of my numbers will be really good, others are not and the same goes for everyone else. The listing of them sort of averages all the numbers out. That way some one who sucks at bombing but can spend a hundred hours doing it can't blow away a player who is really good at bombing but doesn't have the time to put in.
Ranks are also easily fudged. The example of the town centers is just one. Imagine the numbers if you drop only 1 bomb, but its a 4k one. Some people do this a few time and then never jump in a buff again for the month. It makes for some really nice numbers and doesn't take long. So don't go by ranks. Check the number them selves, and only compare them the the same persons numbers.
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It would be nice to see targets that mean something be worth more, i.e., hangars, ammo, fuel, etc...
I agree. I'd like to see what a Lanc driver could do by dropping all hangers on a small field in 1 sortie vs white flagging town. Hangers aren't worth as much for damage in display. I don't know about in the scoring, but it would be interesting to get some info on this.
I think the op has a good point. Fester was #1 overall last tour and flew 12 sorties. He got 4 kills and only landed just over half of his planes. How is this the #1?? Because he rearmed and probably just point farmed towns i would suspect. How else can you average 543k damage per sortie, consider the #2 person averaged 278k. Doesn't seem right that a person who flew 'actual' bombers 3 times (3 captures + 3 formations*3 =12)
Yeah nothing goofy here. The scoring system favors someone who's willing to take B29's on a tour of the cities 4 times a tour and only hits centers of town until out of ords or fuel.
Would be nice to see some sort of relational scoring which included sorties flown, where you have to meet a minimum sortie requirement. Flame on.
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My problem with them is this
i was ranked 15 for bombers last month
i had 41:40:37 in flight in bombers and this was actaul flying not one bomb per town drop stuff ( i may have done one or 2 of those runs trying to pad points but i don't often at all)
i had 311 sorties
now lets compare that to the #1 ranked guy
12:46:43 in flight
12 sorties
this is why rank means nothing
I'm not claiming to be the #1 guy there are better bomber pilots than me that i know rank lower
but you should weight these stats with # of sorties and time in flight somehow not on that but weight the type of targets
i'm not saying towns aren't important but when you fly into a field level all its hangers and head back to land its far more effective
and the percent hit should be based simply on i drop 1 bomb does it blow something up
i had 1294.12% what bull is that
100 should be the best meaning you dropped a salvo of bombs and they hit something every time you dropped bombs
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i had 1294.12% what bull is that
It means the blast radius killed more buildings than one which is why dropping on closely clustered targets
(i.e. town centers) help your bomber rank. It's simply a measure of objects destroyed per bomb dropped.
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100 should be the best meaning you dropped a salvo of bombs and they hit something every time you dropped bombs
I agree--- 1 bomb doing any damage to any amount of objects (town) should count as a single hit and secure a hit percentage of 100%.
The opposite side of that--- 3/6/9 bombs on a single object (hangar), the damage is split across all 3/6/9 bombs and assuming all bombs were within range to do damage to the object, hit percentage would be still be 100%.
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Add fighter kills as a component of bomber score.
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Add fighter kills as a component of bomber score.
I've always wondered about this. I can't decide on it. There are those that do take off and use bombers as gunships, as well as others that use them in their respective historical-based rolls. :headscratch:
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If you can drop a HQ and land the sortie, you probably only need a few to be #1
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Then you shouldn't be looking at ranks or even scores for that matter. Total points and percentage of each player is ok as long as you only compare them to the same players numbers. When you start looking at it through the score system is is easily twisted.
Bomber scoring has 5 categories,
Damage per Death
This is how many points you are awarded per death. Total number of points averaged out over how many deaths +1 (the +1 is because you can't divide zero so everyone gets 1 death). You lose 2 ship in your formation and land the final one you will be charged with 2 deaths.
Damage per Sortie
Damage points awarded per sortie is the same, but its an average of all of your sorties +1. For a formation, you are charged 3 sorties.
Damage Hit Percentage
This is how well you "hit/miss" It is also the one that people love to tweak. If you drop 3k on a hanger and get it you have 100% hit. If you drop the same 3k on the town center you have closer to 2000% hit. The reason being is with the hanger you got 1 object, with the town you got 12 buildings and 2 guns.... or something like that. The numbers may not be right, but you get the idea. Bigger percentage is due to taking down more objects.
Damage Points
total damage points awarded from all of your runs.
Field Captures
Well they had to put it some place :D
If you look at these separately you can see if the player is getting better, hitting smarter, or the opposite. If you add in the ranking, or comparing the points with other players you will have issues. The reason is the system is set up so that a player that only plays a few hours can be ranked closer to a player that plays a hundred hours. If I only make a few runs, but I hit lots of buildings and basically never miss my hit% will be high and my damage per death will be high as well as my damage per sortie. A player who plays alot that doesn't have as good an aim will most likely be shot down more often, have a lower hit%, lower damage per death, lower damage per sortie, but with have a very high total damage points number. Whos the better bomber pilot?
It's had to tell. So HTC totals each category, and then places them from the best to the worst of everyone that plays. Then they take the total of all the categories and and do the same thing listing them from best to worst. This is how each player is ranked. So while some of my numbers will be really good, others are not and the same goes for everyone else. The listing of them sort of averages all the numbers out. That way some one who sucks at bombing but can spend a hundred hours doing it can't blow away a player who is really good at bombing but doesn't have the time to put in.
Ranks are also easily fudged. The example of the town centers is just one. Imagine the numbers if you drop only 1 bomb, but its a 4k one. Some people do this a few time and then never jump in a buff again for the month. It makes for some really nice numbers and doesn't take long. So don't go by ranks. Check the number them selves, and only compare them the the same persons numbers.
I have a lot of respect for you, because of your knowledge of the "game" and your flying ability! But what I am trying to do with this thread is get an accurate ranking system for bomber pilots and nothing really counts except how good a bomber pilot one is. When you put in all these other game classifications related to scoring a bomber pilot, you miss the guys which work hard at bombing and bombing accuracy. I think if anything that should or maybe added, would be fighter kills from a bomber. That again singles out his or her ability as a bomber pilot! I guess I am just having a hard time understanding the reasoning behind 5 different functions which grades a person as a bomber pilot! But, I don't own the plantation, I just pick cotton, so really nothing I can do about it.
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I guess I am just having a hard time understanding the reasoning behind 5 different functions which grades a person as a bomber pilot! But, I don't own the plantation, I just pick cotton, so really nothing I can do about it.
I think the main 'problem' is that you really wish for a more 'realistic' reward that somewhat mimics awards and medals given out in real life to the most successful bomber pilots. Which I fully understand.
However, the combat environment is totally different between AH and real life. In real life being a successful bomber pilot hero required to the most part immense amounts of bravery and luck (to survive long enough). All the great feats being done historically would mean nothing much in AH.
Not that i find the bomber ranking system very meaningful. But having 5 different categories is in fact making it more realistic in such a way as it can be gamed less easily. Think about what it means to have only one category:
If it's damage points, it only rewards players with no life, spending 200 hours flying bombers without any consideration for their actual skill or accuracy. It would even greatly promote bomb and bailing. If the single category would be damage hit %, all you'd need would be one single Mossie 16 sortie with a single perfect hit on a town. Likewise with damage/death or damage/sorties.
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Not that i find the bomber ranking system very meaningful. But having 5 different categories is in fact making it more realistic in such a way as it can be gamed less easily. Think about what it means to have only one category:
If it's damage points, it only rewards players with no life, spending 200 hours flying bombers without any consideration for their actual skill or accuracy. It would even greatly promote bomb and bailing. If the single category would be damage hit %, all you'd need would be one single Mossie 16 sortie with a single perfect hit on a town. Likewise with damage/death or damage/sorties.
While I agree with your points, they do not preclude the further tweaking of the currently system to make it even less gamey.
The addition of air-to-air kills would fall right in line with your statement on multiple categories making it more realistic.
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The addition of air-to-air kills would fall right in line with your statement on multiple categories making it more realistic.
I would have no real problem with that, though I'm not entirely fond of the prospect of having more air-quakeing buffs around, if ya know what I mean. :)
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I would have no real problem with that, though I'm not entirely fond of the prospect of having more air-quakeing buffs around, if ya know what I mean. :)
I dunno, I fly buffs most of the time... and as a below-average fighter pilot and an above average bomber gunner... most people that die to my guns are:
1. Unlucky... sometimes you just eat a few in the face early on.
2. Not flying a ride that is conducive to tackling a later war heavy bomber
3. Just not a very good pilot
4. Impatient or rushed for one reason or another
You really can't FORCE a fighter into a fight with you as a buffer (although I have seen 999000 air-quake his way across airfields several times).
Withholding a reward/recognition on a very valid parameter in the hopes that it will discourage the minority from using the machine in a manner not intended... well, that would wildly change the landscape of the game were that philosophy to be applied evenly.
But, I am by no means vehemently supporting this addition, I just think it would be "cool"... I am sure I have about 3% of the big picture of everything that HTC goes over when making gameplay decisions.
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Like Lusche said, it's needed to keep the "score tweaking" in line. There are still ways around it as I said, but there really isn't anyway to stop it. If they added kills to the score then you would have B17 vulching all the time. Where would your player place then? They are doing their bomber mission getting a kill or two each run and after a month you have maybe 100 kills in a bomber. You can get that in a good half dozen vulch runs if you put your mind to it. Again, your bomber pilot won't be recognized.
Personally I'd like to see hvys used as hvys. No bombs dropped under 15k count at all, medium buffs 10k. I'd be ok with the old style bomb site too. The problem while this is a game to us, its a business to HTC. Making bombing harder/more challenging could drive players away. Adapting the score set up so it reflects "skill" instead of "tricks" could drive people away.
You want to honor your squadmates, go ahead. Post them here (that is kinda hit or miss with this crowd) or add a squad web site and list your own "Top Dogs" for the month.
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Adapting the score set up so it reflects "skill" instead of "tricks" could drive people away.
This statement makes no sense. These "tricks" aren't known by new players, and are only practiced by the veteran ones. So logically they would have consistently worse rankings than those employing the "trickery." If anything it would make them see the fruits of their labor less and make them not want to continue.
I think we should all be able to agree that a pilot who flow 12 sorties and landed only 7 of them for only 12 hours of gameplay shouldn't be the #1 overall. He used the allowed loophole to get his score legitimately so you can't fault him. But I for one don't even want to try to devote the time to get that award knowing that all it takes is one clevar person to take advantage of this to make my time worth less. Not worthless, but worth less than it would with a proper scoring.
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This statement makes no sense. These "tricks" aren't known by new players, and are only practiced by the veteran ones. So logically they would have consistently worse rankings than those employing the "trickery." If anything it would make them see the fruits of their labor less and make them not want to continue.
I think we should all be able to agree that a pilot who flow 12 sorties and landed only 7 of them for only 12 hours of gameplay shouldn't be the #1 overall. He used the allowed loophole to get his score legitimately so you can't fault him. But I for one don't even want to try to devote the time to get that award knowing that all it takes is one clevar person to take advantage of this to make my time worth less. Not worthless, but worth less than it would with a proper scoring.
How many times have you seen someone type in if there are any "xxxxx codes"? Most of the new players are gamers and the first thing most do is look for the easy way to do things. Quickest way to the top of the leader board in bombers is NOT the way your doing it. It is the way the guy who got #1 did it. That is the type of player we get for the most part. The same players that see nothing wrong with dive bombing in a Lancaster to take out a couple of tanks.
I don't like it any more than you do, but I have been looking for "change" here for a long time and have been pretty much told "it is what it is, get use to it"
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I don't like it any more than you do, but I have been looking for "change" here for a long time and have been pretty much told "it is what it is, get use to it"
Uh 100% clear about that...
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I would generally agree with earl....... These were my observations after dweebing #1 bomber spot.......
. It seems to me that its far to easy to "game" the bombing score system. Whilst many (I am sure ) are not at all interested in score and even less interested in bombing score I do think it worthy of some analysis.
Effectively to become rated #1 bomb**** all you have to do is launch a B29 (Formations @ 20 x 500lbs or singles at 8 x 2000lbs) 3 or 4 times, carefully avoid the Zoney's and Denniss's (large maps required) and make a couple of Goon captures.
Job done. No real participation in the "conflict" (except maybe for the captures) just take the time to climb to ridiculous altitudes, think way ahead re enemy sector counters and utilise the mega accurate bombing model still in place at 35K and hit the main town building cluster on a milk run that ensures you virgin towns.
Whilst many may loath the inclusion of bombers in the game I would welcome a score system and gamplay model that encouraged a greater interface between bombers and the core conflict.
My preferences would be.
1) Greater bomb drift with altitude. Taking B29s to 30-35k should IMO incurr an accuracy penalty. It would be easy in Arena Setup to add some "jet streams" (wind) above 30K but I am not sure even this would bring about the desired effect. It does seem to me that level bombing accuracy is very much the same (or at least very little affected) regardless of altitude. I should not be able to repeatedly get accuracies of 20-30 metres from 35K (it should be more like 200 -300metres if not 400 -600metres). IMO as altitudes increase so carpet bombing should be more the only method of hitting even large targets. This would affect hit % and damage ratings.
2) Reduce the score level for town buildings and radically increase the score rating for strat. I think town buildings score should still be higher than all other "targets" but the real prize target for big heavy bombers should be strat buildings. Interceptors would then have a much better idea of the ultimate target and given this knowledge would be more likley to invest time on the intercept. Further it may bring strat attrition back into the game a bit more.
3) Increase the reward for fighters attacking bombers, either thru more perks or more score for bomber interception. Equally increase and bring into the bomber score system the categories related to kills on enemy (airborne) aircraft via gunnery.
4) Move capture points somewhere else. I know with the present score system goon capture becomes some sort of "leveller" forcing the milk runner into more dangerous pursuits. However the real "gamey" milk runner, ably assisted by his squad, need only bide his time and secure a couple of captures to bring his score to an unassailable figure. Never really risking his score ratios as would those who suffer goon loss time after time supporting their fellows in the day to day land grab of the arena. I think we now have enough ride types re goons, m3's , jeeps, storches, etc to add a new classification relating to transport (troop and material) , observation and logistic support.
Leave bombing for bombers.............. if only we can pull them a little more integrally into the game play.
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Personally I'd like to see hvys used as hvys. No bombs dropped under 15k count at all, medium buffs 10k.
I like this idea a lot. The same could be done with air to air kills... just have them only count above "vulch range".
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I like this idea a lot. The same could be done with air to air kills... just have them only count above "vulch range".
So what happens if I'm in a deck fight over a base that started at 10k? Gonna get cancelled because of a gulch violation?
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So what happens if I'm in a deck fight over a base that started at 10k? Gonna get cancelled because of a gulch violation?
A deck fight? In a bomber? This is all strictly related to air-to-air in gun positions... sorry, should have re-iterated from previous posts... nose-guns/solid nosed craft... yeah, not sure anything can be done there... and they aren't really indicative of ones ability to "bomb"... i.e. manage plane/calibration/defenses.
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I am REALLY digging the Ki-67... although I usually try to hit a string of bases and by the time I have had my fill of fun, there are enough cons co-alt that are faster than the Dragon... fast as she may be... and there's only so much 20mm loving to go around.
The KI-67 is a Killer against enemy fighters and is a heck of a perk machine. Kill 3 or 4 5 eny fighters and then do the math. A great airplane! Still my favorite raider.