Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on June 07, 2012, 09:32:51 AM
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To you 109 experts,
I am aware of the 109 compression (or whatever the proper term is) in a dive but was wondering which 109 variant in AH dives the fastest?
Maybe gets to its terminally velocity the fastest in a dive is another way to word it.
Thanks,
Slade :salute
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K4 would be the obvious answer, more HP, better streamlining.
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109E gets surface movement issues sooner than the K4.
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Generally speaking they're all about the same starting with the G2 on up. Sure, the horsepower of the K4 might make it dive a little faster -- but I kind of doubt it since the drag and terminal velocity are probably going to be the same regardless of horsepower.
For AH purposes they'll all "lock up" before you reach that anyway, so that's why I say they're all about the same.
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Really are two different answers to your questions Slate. The K-4 undoubtedly dives the fastest at full throttle, and locks up very quickly. Your question can also be interpreted, as which maintains the most control at the highest possible dive speed (and this again can be broken into two parts - pre-control lockup and post-control lockup (aka: pure trim)). I don't know 109s that well or in that much detail to give a good opinion twords that, but about all the Gs and the K are the same in that area imho in terms of control authority and I guess "trim authority".
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The maximum permissible indicated airspeeds in the different heights are not being observed and are widely exceeded. On the basis of evidence which is now available the speed limitations ordered by teleprint message GL/6 No. 2428/41 of 10.6.41 are cancelled and replaced by the following data:
Up to 3 km (9,842 ft.) 750 km/h. (466 m.p.h.)
At 5 km (16,404 ft) 700 km/h. (435 m.p.h.)
At 7 km (22,965 ft) 575 km/h. (357 m.p.h.)
At 9 km (29,527 ft) 450 km/h. (280 m.p.h.)
At 11 km (36,089 ft) 400 km/h. (248 m.p.h.)
source: Spitfire Performance
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seems like a trick question really. Sure the K4 will go the fastest, but that also means it reaches the compression speed faster - and will either have to bleed speed (rudder, throttle, trim, roll) faster o will just lawn dart faster.
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seems like a trick question really.
Not my intent but you are correct in a sense. Sometimes one needs to dive to setup a firing solution. Especially true on initial contact when you may be 5K+ above your target.
For a 190, P-51, P-47, F-4u (planes that are good at diving etc.), I find myself in these situations using all the "air braking" techniques until about 2.5 away. Then I back off the breaking and focus on angle of attack and closing range. Even in the air braking phase I still try to setup the best angle of attack too of course.
For BF-109s I find that dive angle cannot be as steep and cannot back off "air braking" until I am closer to the target (or I become a lawn dart).
Do you guys deal with high approaches the same way?
Please share your findings and techniques.
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From what i've read, 109 pilots used both hands ,and feet on rudders to pull up at high speed, what max force are calculated for pulling up at compression in AH ?
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Spiral dive, keeping eyes on target at all times. Never going past 400mph.
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How do you catch a plane going faster than 400?
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How do you catch a plane going faster than 400?
Ignore it? This is where SA comes in, Choose targets you can easily kill first, but still keep watch of the other cons. If it's the only con, then sure, dive past 400 to catch them. When you get on his 6 and he breaks, zoom straight up and spiral dive on him. He is now under 400mph and you still have your energy stored as altitude.
EDIT: I should be more specific, unless the 400mph+ con is heading right for you, then you can ignore it, if it is, then that's a discussion for another topic.
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Icepac,
Titan said something useful. Still, there can be more effective ways than the zooming straight up.
The F/G/K series can reach the blackout at up to 435mph, using the auto combat trim and still remain controllable at 445-450mph. The key is to plan forward: if your opponent is as much under you and as fast that you have to dive faster than 440, i would suggest to add a bit of manual trim when its not too late, ergo hit the k button for 1-1.5 seconds. Then you can still fly straight and hit the blackout if you need, up to 470 mph. For me, that was enough to catch any pony, f4u, lala, 190 sometimes even tempests, even tho they usually came from way above.
If the enemy breaks, i usually started a spiral climb to slow me down (what happened very quickly with idle engine), so i ended up slow, a bit above them but not as far as with a straight zoom-up, leaving them less chance to try to excend for a bit, and could finish my opponents quickly unless whey were in something real turny (spit8/9, hurri, zeek, brewski and well-flown f4us).
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From what i've read, 109 pilots used both hands ,and feet on rudders to pull up at high speed, what max force are calculated for pulling up at compression in AH ?
I believe in RL the max force a person was able to apply on the stick was about 60 lbs. This was primary due to the small cockpit preventing the pilot from gaining enough leverage. 109s you want to use trim and you want to 'time' you dives so that you are at around 440ish at the time you pull the trigger. If you are too fast before you dive, bleed e, cut throttle and don't position yourself so far above the other guy. Remember 109s can climb!
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Ahh, this also depends on a given situation.
I do things differently, usualy in a 190, as I try to get my opponent as slow as possible while retaining as much speed as possible and will BnZ to "tire" them out numerous times before getting impatient or seeing an oportunity. But in a 109 (when I rarely fly them, or similar ac), I go fo one or two high speed passes at most before comming in slow in an attempt to sadle up my target (usualy these passes are intended to guage or further inspect the enemy before fully comiting my E/alt advantage and attention to engaging them... IE: guaging a disciplined La5 vs. a stick-stiring negative-g-pushing La7 at 12k - both I would handle differently after a initial BnZ/safety/recon pass). Compression, as long as it's controlable with trim, is fine in this first pass... the enemy usualy doesnt know (or care), beyond that you're closign on their 6 fast, to think if your shaking too hard to make any realistic shot, so they brake to avoid best they can.
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Yah, titan is right, you ignore them. If they are 5k below you and you want to jump them, follow them while using throttle to position yourself, they will turn below you and you position yourself in a low e state (because for a 109 and especially a K4, you don't don't want excess e if you have alt) and do your roll over with little or no throttle, saddle/shoot and then gently throttle up for the zoom for a quick high yoyo/barrel roll to keep the pressure on.
Personally I prefer to get under them and take the shot on the up since if they break with a split S, you can hammer it easily and then it is a saddle for you, likewise if they go up or break to the side, you have the extra e to manage throttle and have gravity working against you. Personally I like the 109 in the vert going up more then in the dive and like the merge, will always try to get under (but more e) then the opponent. This is the exact opposite with in the 190 where i prefer coming down on someone.
Ultimately speaking, the 109 is not a good BnZer really, for the aforementioned reasons and because it lacks the snapshot firepower. Yes yes the tater is a one shot kill, but it is best shot from very close ranges with high profiles - and these kinds of situations are usually in the up hill pert of a vert fight. In the down, you just don't have time to really be accurate - whereas the 190 can put out a fair bit of ammo and start shooting further out. So i suppose the crux is: if you want to keep with the BnZ style of fighting, I recommend a different plane that is more suited. Mind you anyone can BnZ in any plane - but some are more suited to the task, and like the KI84, I prefer to start with an alt disadvantage in the K4 because it gives the opponent the initiative and me the reversal.
As for diving, just don't go full throttle downhill. . .109s need a fair bit of throttle adjustment, and one of the first things you learn is that unless you know it is going to be a very short dive to get E for a quick climb, keep the throttle down. Hell the K4 will compress in level flight at full throttle!
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more reading about 109 dive speeds and behaviour :
Through the eyes of the enemy - possibly Me 109 G:
"My flight chased 12 109s south of Vienna. They climbed and we followed, unable to close on them. At 38,000 feet I fired a long burst at one of them from at least a 1000 yards, and saw some strikes. It rolled over and dived and I followed but soon reached compressibility with severe buffeting of the tail and loss of elevator control. I slowed my plane and regained control, but the 109 got away.
On two other occasions ME 109s got away from me because the P 51d could not stay with them in a high-speed dive. At 525-550 mph the plane would start to porpoise uncontrollably and had to be slowed to regain control. The P 51 was redlined at 505 mph, meaning that this speed should not be exceeded. But when chasing 109s or 190s in a dive from 25-26,000 it often was exceeded, if you wanted to keep up with those enemy planes. The P 51b, and c, could stay with those planes in a dive. The P 51d had a thicker wing and a bubble canopy which changed the airflow and brought on compressibility at lower speeds."
- Robert C.Curtis, American P-51 pilot.
more on the 109 in link below.
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/
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Curtis just ruined some of his credibility. The P-51D didn't have thicker wings than the P-51B/C.
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There were wing alterations between the B and D models, and a greater wing thickness became a commonly held myth as to why the P-51 dived poorly compared to P-38s and P-47s.
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Does AH 51D dive worse than the B model ?
Could 109 get away from a P51D in AH described in pilots interviews ?
Why can't AH 109 use its Flettner at speed described in one of the interviews ?
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Does AH 51D dive worse than the B model ?
Could 109 get away from a P51D in AH described in pilots interviews ?
Why can't AH 109 use its Flettner at speed described in one of the interviews ?
The flettner IIRC is in the tail and the way it's trimmed. The 109 had a "flying tail" as in the whole horizontal surface was moved,AH models this quite nicely with the pitch trim.
:salute
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Late G-models and Ks had flettner tabs, though not all units received them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_tab
They're not modeled in AH i think.
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The tail of G-10/R2 (W.Nr. 770269) with the flettner tab clearly visible on the rudder.
(http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/structures/tails/770269.jpg)
To my knowledge the G-6/AS was the first to use flettner tabs.
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Why can't AH 109 use its Flettner at speed described in one of the interviews ?
Are you thinking the Flettner is pilot adjustable in flight? It is not. It is set on the ground.
PR3D4TOR, it doesn't matter if the Flettner is modeled or not.
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In this game even the K-4 has a hard time operating over 30k (and I mean just over 30K). Forget about pulling away and outclimbing P-51s at 38K!
In this game, 109s are the underdogs in scenarios and FSOs when matched against US planes that operate with impunity up to 40k.
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PR3D4TOR, it doesn't matter if the Flettner is modeled or not.
Why? It would mean that late mark 109's like the G-14 and K-4 would have better rudder authority at high speed than the earlier 109s.
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In this game even the K-4 has a hard time operating over 30k (and I mean just over 30K). Forget about pulling away and outclimbing P-51s at 38K!
In this game, 109s are the underdogs in scenarios and FSOs when matched against US planes that operate with impunity up to 40k.
Does this have to do with the fact that non of AH 109s have the high alt boosts?
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The K-4 does have the high alt boost.
predator, I don't think so. In fact I've read most that even HAD flettner tabs (and it was few and far between) had them fixed into place and they never worked. They were just a part of the rudder.
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No, those were the aileron flettners mounted on WNF produced 109Gs and Ks (about 8,000 of the total 34,000 bf 109 production). At very high speed they could create control-force reversal, which was very dangerous, so many pilots had them deactivated. The rudder flettners were mounted on all tall-tail 109s (about mid-1944 onward) and worked as they should.
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No, I'm specifically thinking of the rudder when I say that.
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Why? It would mean that late mark 109's like the G-14 and K-4 would have better rudder authority at high speed than the earlier 109s.
In real life but not in a game.
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No, those were the aileron flettners mounted on WNF produced 109Gs and Ks (about 8,000 of the total 34,000 bf 109 production). At very high speed they could create control-force reversal, which was very dangerous, so many pilots had them deactivated. The rudder flettners were mounted on all tall-tail 109s (about mid-1944 onward) and worked as they should.
WNF never produced any neubau K-4s. Mttr produced 1593 K-4s tho.
WNF production of neubau Gs was 2660 from Jan '44.
G 6/R2 132
G 6/U4 1466
G 8 112
G 8/R5 915
G 8/U3 1
G 10/U4 356
G 14/U4 593
On the Ubi Il-2 board Kurfurst couldn't produce anything that held up to scrutiny with regards to wide spread installation of aileron Flettners fitted to production 109s.
Pilots complained that the ailerons were too sensitive to control inputs.
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In real life but not in a game.
Aren't control inputs in AH limited/simulated to a set force (40 lbs perhaps) equal for all aircraft? If so then rudder authority at high speed on early 109s should be less than on late 109s.