Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: ACE on June 21, 2012, 07:33:00 AM

Title: 410
Post by: ACE on June 21, 2012, 07:33:00 AM
Will the 410s 50mm cannon shoot relativley fast or will it be slower than the p39 :bhead
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Karnak on June 21, 2012, 07:44:01 AM
Will the 410s 50mm cannon shoot relativley fast or will it be slower than the p39 :bhead
Do you mean muzzle velocity or rate of fire?

The BK5 has a rate of fire of 45 rounds per minute and a muzzle velocity of 920 meters per second when firing HE rounds.

The M4 37mm gun on the P-39 has a rate of fire of 140 to 150 rounds per minute and a muzzle velocity of 610 meters per second when firing HE rounds.

As you can see, by one measure, rate of fire, the P-39's is faster and by the other measure, muzzle velocity, the Me410's BK5 is faster.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: JunkyII on June 21, 2012, 07:54:32 AM
Do you mean muzzle velocity or rate of fire?

The BK5 has a rate of fire of 45 rounds per minute and a muzzle velocity of 920 meters per second when firing HE rounds.

The M4 37mm gun on the P-39 has a rate of fire of 140 to 150 rounds per minute and a muzzle velocity of 610 meters per second when firing HE rounds.

As you can see, by one measure, rate of fire, the P-39's is faster and by the other measure, muzzle velocity, the Me410's BK5 is faster.
As far as round drop will the added wait of the BK5s round still drop more even with the higher velocity?
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Lusche on June 21, 2012, 08:03:53 AM
As far as round drop will the added wait of the BK5s round still drop more even with the higher velocity?

The BK-5 shells have a very flat trajectory.

(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3122/clipboard01kut.jpg)
(based on real world data)
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Karnak on June 21, 2012, 08:05:32 AM
As far as round drop will the added wait of the BK5s round still drop more even with the higher velocity?
More massive objects do not fall faster.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: JunkyII on June 21, 2012, 08:16:51 AM
The BK-5 shells have a very flat trajectory.

(based on real world data)
50MM Hispano woot woot
Title: Re: 410
Post by: icepac on June 21, 2012, 08:18:33 AM
That chart explains why I get so many kills in the 110g at 900 yards.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: ACE on June 21, 2012, 08:44:15 AM
Rate of fire sorry :)
Title: Re: 410
Post by: GScholz on June 21, 2012, 11:26:07 AM
The Bk 5 is not an autocannon, but a self-loading cannon, so you cannot expect great ROF. It's basically a KwK 39 tank gun fitted with an automatic loader.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Kwk39L60.jpg/800px-Kwk39L60.jpg)


The British did much the same with their "Tsetse" Mosquito fitted with the Molins 6 pounder (57mm) for anti-shipping purposes.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: W7LPNRICK on June 21, 2012, 04:42:54 PM
The Bk 5 is not an autocannon, but a self-loading cannon, so you cannot expect great ROF. It's basically a KwK 39 tank gun fitted with an automatic loader.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Kwk39L60.jpg/800px-Kwk39L60.jpg)


The British did much the same with their "Tsetse" Mosquito fitted with the Molins 6 pounder (57mm) for anti-shipping purposes.

Can we get one of these?   
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Wiley on June 21, 2012, 04:48:14 PM
I simply cannot wait to use this gun on this aircraft against all sorts of targets...

It's not a tater chucker, more like a melon.

Wiley.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Krusty on June 21, 2012, 06:18:08 PM
Can we get one of these?   

Yes! And you only have to wait 2 weeks!
Title: Re: 410
Post by: JOACH1M on June 21, 2012, 06:53:01 PM
Shooting bombers 800yds will be a breeze!
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Krusty on June 21, 2012, 06:55:30 PM
Shooting bombers 800yds will be a breeze!

You can do that easily with guns already in the game. You're in lethal kill range of the bomber's guns at that point.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: JOACH1M on June 21, 2012, 07:32:15 PM
You can do that easily with guns already in the game. You're in lethal kill range of the bomber's guns at that point.
Not really, takes a lot of spraying to make your hits count. 1 50mm should knock the wing or tail off at 800yds.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Butcher on June 21, 2012, 07:34:30 PM
Not really, takes a lot of spraying to make your hits count. 1 50mm should knock the wing or tail off at 800yds.

Yeah with Mk108s however a good Head on pass from 10 or 2 can yield 3 bombers in one pass if done correctly, problem is you lose speed slamming rudder like that each time.

Can't remember which FSO but was an 8th AF scenario ended up with 8-9 buff kills on one pass before a 47 bounced me.

Then again this was looooooong time ago :)
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Lusche on June 21, 2012, 07:34:52 PM
Not really, takes a lot of spraying to make your hits count.


Yak-9T ...
Title: Re: 410
Post by: JOACH1M on June 21, 2012, 07:36:21 PM

Yak-9T ...
I have no interest in flying that plane.  :confused:
Title: Re: 410
Post by: titanic3 on June 21, 2012, 08:51:17 PM
Bf-110 with Wrg 21

Problem solved.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: icepac on June 22, 2012, 08:00:34 AM
I can kill buffs from D1999 with a yak9t......but it's not easy and you surely won't be doing that to a B17 flying 315mph at 36,000 feet.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: 321BAR on June 22, 2012, 09:58:59 AM
The BK-5 shells have a very flat trajectory.

(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3122/clipboard01kut.jpg)
(based on real world data)
woofwoofwoof..... i want :cool:
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Debrody on June 22, 2012, 03:01:22 PM
Who cares about big arse cannons and chasing straight-flying buffs...
All i need is the basic 2 151/20s to remove a spits wing when he overshoots :aok
Title: Re: 410
Post by: bangsbox on June 23, 2012, 04:04:44 PM
i wonder if the bk5 round will disappear or go until it hit the ground like the 75mm b25.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: bustr on June 23, 2012, 07:16:21 PM
Matrix absorbs 75mm past 4.4k. Max effective range in the game for the B25H 75mm 4.4k.

Learned that building a calibrated gunsight to fit CV between two points to tell when to fire the 75mm at 1-2k alt. You have to lead by about 50Mil starting at 4.4k in to 3.5k so as not to land shots in the CV's wake.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Denniss on June 23, 2012, 07:36:29 PM
i wonder if the bk5 round will disappear or go until it hit the ground like the 75mm b25.
Should have been equipped with a timed self-destructive fuze.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: bangsbox on June 26, 2012, 11:39:46 AM
Matrix absorbs 75mm past 4.4k. Max effective range in the game for the B25H 75mm 4.4k.

Learned that building a calibrated gunsight to fit CV between two points to tell when to fire the 75mm at 1-2k alt. You have to lead by about 50Mil starting at 4.4k in to 3.5k so as not to land shots in the CV's wake.

really is that newish.. I can remmber pulling plane up at 45degrees (along with other angles just playn around) and always seeing the round hit the ground. Now I can't tell if it was always under 4.4k but i always watched the rounds hit. Also what gun site u using (I only have in game pack)...sad face
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Reaper90 on June 28, 2012, 07:20:59 PM
I have no interest in flying that plane.  :confused:

Your loss.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: JOACH1M on June 29, 2012, 12:56:00 AM
Your loss.
Maybe you can persuade me into flying it it. :)
Title: Re: 410
Post by: morfiend on June 29, 2012, 09:58:38 AM
That chart explains why I get so many kills in the 110g at 900 yards.


  Would you care to explain this to me?  I see on the chart the 108 drops about 90 ft at 900yds but that still doesnt explain to me how you accomplish this feat.

  Myself I have trouble hitting anything past about 200 yds,I prefer to hold my fire until I see D0 on the icon then I know I'm inside 200yds.


    :salute
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Butcher on June 29, 2012, 12:27:20 PM

  Would you care to explain this to me?  I see on the chart the 108 drops about 90 ft at 900yds but that still doesnt explain to me how you accomplish this feat.

  Myself I have trouble hitting anything past about 200 yds,I prefer to hold my fire until I see D0 on the icon then I know I'm inside 200yds.


    :salute

While I doubt he can do this more then once, I have a thread on pulling off a miracle 800/1000k shot - reason I say I doubt because unless the con is flying straight and level you are not scoring hits.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,331425.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,331425.0.html)
Title: Re: 410
Post by: morfiend on June 29, 2012, 02:17:09 PM
While I doubt he can do this more then once, I have a thread on pulling off a miracle 800/1000k shot - reason I say I doubt because unless the con is flying straight and level you are not scoring hits.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,331425.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,331425.0.html)

  Maybe I didnt get my point across in the wording of my question.

     What I was interested in was how the chart explains anything other than the drop of the projectile. Icepac said" this chart explains why....."  I was curious if he used a gunsight that showed a 90 ft drop point or some other method.


    :salute
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Butcher on June 29, 2012, 02:21:15 PM
  Maybe I didnt get my point across in the wording of my question.

     What I was interested in was how the chart explains anything other than the drop of the projectile. Icepac said" this chart explains why....."  I was curious if he used a gunsight that showed a 90 ft drop point or some other method.


    :salute

Ahh sorry Morf I didn't get the chart part, I don't think there is a gunsight for that, I simply pull up and pray heheheheh.
Title: Re: 410
Post by: bustr on June 29, 2012, 05:55:22 PM
really is that newish.. I can remmber pulling plane up at 45degrees (along with other angles just playn around) and always seeing the round hit the ground. Now I can't tell if it was always under 4.4k but i always watched the rounds hit. Also what gun site u using (I only have in game pack)...sad face

You can build your own. I used the offline target and a CV group to work out the details. You start with the length of the CV in meters and go from there. Also if you build your gunsights in 512x512 bitmap mode then 1Mil = 2Pixel. From there you can determin drop at distance in Mils by creating a Mil grid gunsight 100Mil dia and 5Mil mark waffel grid. Use a standard Angular Mil formula for balistics.

Our carrier is aproximently 100Mil long at 2.5k through our gunsights.

Non radar or lazer guided reflector gunsight range markers are very good aproximations but, still require the skill of the pilot using them to succeed.

This thing works but, most of the time the effort to lineup at 1-2k level flight while zoomed looking at the carrier gets you killed by fighters or a good 5inch gunner. I based this off real WW2 B25J that first used a tiltable sight head and speed formulas before a  radar auto tilted sight head distance control was perfected.

The maximum range for the 75mm in WW2 shooting at ships from sea level to 2k alt was 4k. Hits from 4k were about 1 in 9. With the radar controled sight heads hits from 4k went up to about 4 in 9 with fewer B25's hit by ack fire. Inside of 4k the B25's had ack problems like we do in the game. I have a version based on it that used to be "Point and Click"  on tanks before Hitech changed the distance at which we see GV icons. Now you can simply use a dot due to how close you have to get to see the GV icon from the air or distinguish the GV on zoom from the terrain. But, then wirbels will have at that point.

I attempted to create an accurate tank Mil width grid at distances outside of icon range for full zoom. Hits are about 2 in 10 offline with a tank sitting on a runway and no brush clutter with all rounds within 100 yards if they miss. Using the grid, hits more often happened starting at 3k. 2k and in is the most predictable but, now you are in wirbel range.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/9/d/2/9d2bd7264f406aff51659bb823b43893.png)

where:

D = distance or range to the target in meters
S = size of the target in centimeters (known width or height of the target)
mil = number of Mil

 (http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4807/n3cvrmp.gif)


Mil Grid Data Collection Gunsight

(http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1696/miltest.gif)
Title: Re: 410
Post by: Babalonian on June 29, 2012, 06:10:19 PM
You can build your own. I used the offline target and a CV group to work out the details. You start with the length of the CV in meters and go from there. Also if you build your gunsights in 512x512 bitmap mode then 1Mil = 2Pixel. From there you can determin drop at distance in Mils by creating a Mil grid gunsight 100Mil dia and 5Mil mark waffel grid. Use a standard Angular Mil formula for balistics.

Our carrier is aproximently 100Mil long at 2.5k through our gunsights.

Non radar or lazer guided reflector gunsight range markers are very good aproximations but, still require the skill of the pilot using them to succeed.

This thing works but, most of the time the effort to lineup at 1-2k level flight while zoomed looking at the carrier gets you killed by fighters or a good 5inch gunner. I based this off real WW2 B25J that first used a tiltable sight head and speed formulas before a  radar auto tilted sight head distance control was perfected.

The maximum range for the 75mm in WW2 shooting at ships from sea level to 2k alt was 4k. Hits from 4k were about 1 in 9. With the radar controled sight heads hits from 4k went up to about 4 in 9 with fewer B25's hit by ack fire. Inside of 4k the B25's had ack problems like we do in the game. I have a version based on it that used to be "Point and Click"  on tanks before Hitech changed the distance at which we see GV icons. Now you can simply use a dot due to how close you have to get to see the GV icon from the air or distinguish the GV on zoom from the terrain. But, then wirbels will have at that point.

I attempted to create an accurate tank Mil width grid at distances outside of icon range for full zoom. Hits are about 2 in 10 offline with a tank sitting on a runway and no brush clutter with all rounds within 100 yards if they miss. Using the grid, hits more often happened starting at 3k. 2k and in is the most predictable but, now you are in wirbel range.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/9/d/2/9d2bd7264f406aff51659bb823b43893.png)

where:

D = distance or range to the target in meters
S = size of the target in centimeters (known width or height of the target)
mil = number of Mil

 (http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4807/n3cvrmp.gif)


Mil Grid Data Collection Gunsight

(http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1696/miltest.gif)


If I know you, your'e already drafting one up for the BK5?   :devil  (don't Bogart it, gramps)
Title: Re: 410
Post by: bustr on June 29, 2012, 06:51:54 PM
I notice we are not getting the Zielfernrohre zfr 4a with the BK-5 varient of the 410. It was the gunsight used to aim it.

The second reticle image down through the telescope is about the size in the game our ReviC12d will be when full zoomed. I'll wait untill the release of the 410 and utilise the updated offline target command to create an elevation ladder in my ReviC12d reticle for the BK-5. The target distance input and our icons are in yards opposed to meters which the Rechlin testing data is recorded in.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/instrumente/katalog/revi/gross/Fl52283.gif)

(http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/instrumente/katalog/revi/gross/Blick%20%20ZFR%204A.jpg)
Title: Re: 410
Post by: bustr on June 30, 2012, 03:27:52 PM
Baddd Babs,

Now you have me curious about the HurriD and Ju87-G2. Historicly both attacked tanks at shallow angles from about 400m in battle feilds that never heard the name Wirbel.