Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: earl1937 on June 21, 2012, 12:30:05 PM
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:bhead OK, Hi Tech, this is not a compliant, but a honest question. Has anything happened to change the effectiveness of .50 cal ammo? I am getting good shots from 200 to 400 yds, with sparkles all over the aircraft and not getting kills,(except every once in a while), don't even get a engine smoke. Don't say its my poor aim, because if you do, be glad to meet you in training arena and show you that I can hit a target at 400 yds as good as anyone else. What I am curious about is this, I have a HP desk top, 8.5 GB, with advanced graphic cards, (2) and 99% of the time, my frame rate is between 55 and 65. So, do you have any suggestions, beside flying up the con's rear and hope I get the kill? I am not the only one complaining about the effectiveness of .50 cal.
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Hitting an airplane doesn't mean you hit something important much less something vital. Putting one .50 round somewhere it counts is more important than putting 100 of them places they don't. You don't want sparkles (hit sprites) all over the airplane. You want them focused in one central place where they're going to do some serious structural or system damage.
Another important item to consider is your convergence settings. When you put projectiles from 4-6-8 guns into the same place there isn't anything that can be done to prevent damage because you're going to hit something with that buzzsaw.
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Nothing has changed, but make sure you didn't happen to change your convergence settings by accident.
HiTech
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Check that v-sync is enabled in your video card properties and don't let Windows auto update your video drivers.
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I have fired tens of thousands of rounds of 50cal ammo over my career in the Army so I have first hand experience with this round. I too am always disappointed with it's performance in the game. While I understand HTC has to model the 50cal with a performance chart for the game. The 50cal round is one of those magical bullets that out preforms what it says on paper by far.
I could hit range targets like old M113 armor personnel carriers at 2000 yrds with the M2 with no problem and it still had some punch on it at that range. However it is what it is here for the purpose of the game. I find that 300 meters is the most effective range for me with the 50cal in Aces High. Go off line and try different convergence settings until you fine one the works best for you.
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sounds like rubber bullet syndrome...
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I could hit range targets like old M113 armor personnel carriers at 2000 yrds with the M2 with no problem and it still had some punch on it at that range. However it is what it is here for the purpose of the game. I find that 300 meters is the most effective range for me with the 50cal in Aces High. Go off line and try different convergence settings until you fine one the works best for you.
I don't doubt it, but respectfully I'm guessing you didn't do that with a 200-300mph crosswind coming at the gun barrel from a couple of degrees off center. That's going to play havoc with accuracy, to say nothing of now putting that gun on a relatively unstable flying object.
All things considered, I think the gunnery in this game is a pretty fair compromise between computing capability and realisticness.
Wiley.
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I have fired tens of thousands of rounds of 50cal ammo over my career in the Army so I have first hand experience with this round. I too am always disappointed with it's performance in the game. While I understand HTC has to model the 50cal with a performance chart for the game. The 50cal round is one of those magical bullets that out preforms what it says on paper by far.
If the .50 cal's damage was increased they would have to increase all of the cannons damage values as well. To the best of my knowledge the AN-M2 20mm and .50 BMG have their damage ratio matching what the US Navy said it was.
Per the US Navy, a single AN-M2 20mm cannon (Hispano Mk II in US service) installation provided equal firepower to an installation of three Browning .50 cals. That isn't a hit being worth three times the hit of a .50, but the overall firepower value of the installation.
Thus, by the US Navy's estimate, the Spitfires Mk XIV and XVI have approximately the same firepower as the P-47's eight .50s.
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I have noticed a lot less smoke/fuel hits spewing from the bombers when hitting the wings. The wing usually comes off before any signs of oil or fuel hits.
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Earl,
This may sound strange but, have you updated any drivers on your PC around the time your rubber bullets started? Have you installed any new programs? Did your antivirus program receive an update to it's engine along with the latest definitions? Have you allowed Windows Update to install hotfixes?
Sometime Windows Update turns things on that you have disabled as part of finishing the update's install.
Do you run a batch file or application befor starting the game to reduce your running services down to about 32-33? This is where Windows Update screws you sometimes because you don't count services after updates thinking MS wouldnt dare do that.
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Have you turned your router or broadband modem off and let it sit for 10 minutes recently? Sometimes with ATT I have to do that when I get rubber bullets in AH. When I start it back up I also get a new IP address and a temporary halt to automated scans of my ATT IP address by IP addresses registered to hotels in mainland china.
Something to ponder, how old is your router or your cable\dsl modem? A few years back my first ATT DSL modem was getting old and I had a long streatch of rubber bullets. I replaced it and started hitting things again. I've had the same thing happen with routers going bad. Another thing to ponder is if you login to your broadband provider with PPPoE, is your router MTU and network card MTU both set to 1492?
You can download SG TCP Optimiser from here to test your MTU window size for packet fragmentation on the way to the game server. Packet fragmentation can cause rubber bullets.
http://www.speedguide.net/downloads.php/
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I recently caused my own rubber bullets by installing the latest and greatest ATI drivers for my video card. I had to roll back 3 versions and my .50cals started sawing wings off again. If Hitech was going to change gunnery it would happen during a patch release as a global effect to every player. If your rubber bullets are not happening right after installing the new patch. The source of the problem is anywhere from your PC to the internet path to the game server.
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Have you run PingPlotter to 206.16.60.38 to see whats happening in your internet path to the game server?
Have you performed normal house keeping of your harddrive like a comprehensive defrag along with a boot time defrag?
Have you checked to see if something is phoning home from your PC that shouldn't be on your PC?
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Whenever I get rubber bullets and it's not immediately after a game update. I run through this kind of laundry list of steps and it usualy comes down to one of them. More often it's just a bad night, or even a week on the internet between me and Texas.
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No I did not fire the m-2 50cal while doing 300mph lol. All were fired from a station tripod or from the top on an M-48A5 M-60A2 M-113 or a scout jeep. Still it is an analyzing round that is coming up on her 100th birthday soon. I was fortunate to have been a range officer for many years and fired about every small arm or crew served weapon you could think of to include many Russian arms. Then I was a range officer on the Police Dept for another 10 yrs and much fun was had.
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Do the current 50cal use the same chemicals that the WWII era one? Is the muzzle velocity still the same?
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Do the current 50cal use the same chemicals that the WWII era one? Is the muzzle velocity still the same?
In WWII the muzzle velocity of the ones on ground vehicles were a bit higher due to longer barrels. This is modeled in AH.
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:bhead OK, Hi Tech, this is not a compliant, but a honest question. Has anything happened to change the effectiveness of .50 cal ammo? I am getting good shots from 200 to 400 yds, with sparkles all over the aircraft and not getting kills,(except every once in a while), don't even get a engine smoke.
Found the problem.
If you can't or don't want to aim at a specific part of the plane, 20mm or larger weapons are going to be your best bet. Even if you want to learn to aim better, flying the 109's, spits, and Japanese stuff will do your flying some good as well. Better you know what the other guy can do, better you can kill them.
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Not a thing wrong with 50s in game. Very very effective.
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Earl,
This may sound strange but, have you updated any drivers on your PC around the time your rubber bullets started? Have you installed any new programs? Did your antivirus program receive an update to it's engine along with the latest definitions? Have you allowed Windows Update to install hotfixes?
Sometime Windows Update turns things on that you have disabled as part of finishing the update's install.
Do you run a batch file or application befor starting the game to reduce your running services down to about 32-33? This is where Windows Update screws you sometimes because you don't count services after updates thinking MS wouldnt dare do that.
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Have you turned your router or broadband modem off and let it sit for 10 minutes recently? Sometimes with ATT I have to do that when I get rubber bullets in AH. When I start it back up I also get a new IP address and a temporary halt to automated scans of my ATT IP address by IP addresses registered to hotels in mainland china.
Something to ponder, how old is your router or your cable\dsl modem? A few years back my first ATT DSL modem was getting old and I had a long streatch of rubber bullets. I replaced it and started hitting things again. I've had the same thing happen with routers going bad. Another thing to ponder is if you login to your broadband provider with PPPoE, is your router MTU and network card MTU both set to 1492?
You can download SG TCP Optimiser from here to test your MTU window size for packet fragmentation on the way to the game server. Packet fragmentation can cause rubber bullets.
http://www.speedguide.net/downloads.php/
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I recently caused my own rubber bullets by installing the latest and greatest ATI drivers for my video card. I had to roll back 3 versions and my .50cals started sawing wings off again. If Hitech was going to change gunnery it would happen during a patch release as a global effect to every player. If your rubber bullets are not happening right after installing the new patch. The source of the problem is anywhere from your PC to the internet path to the game server.
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Have you run PingPlotter to 206.16.60.38 to see whats happening in your internet path to the game server?
Have you performed normal house keeping of your harddrive like a comprehensive defrag along with a boot time defrag?
Have you checked to see if something is phoning home from your PC that shouldn't be on your PC?
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Whenever I get rubber bullets and it's not immediately after a game update. I run through this kind of laundry list of steps and it usualy comes down to one of them. More often it's just a bad night, or even a week on the internet between me and Texas.
:old: Understood everthing you wrote in your suggestion to the comma after my name!!!! After that, I am a complete computer dummmmmbie!!! Thanks for your suggestions though!!
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Damage model favors cannons. Damage seems to be cumulative. (So many hits to one spot you lose a peice) A single 20mm hit does all sorts of damage to one spot where as 5 or 6 hits from 50s does less damage because it's spread out. AH doesn't account for radios, gauges, wires, cables, turbos, propellers, controls and all the other little things that could reduce a planes ability to fight yet not render the plane incapable of flight. If .50s in game were as effective as the navy says they were (3 to 1 vs hispanos) jug would have the same snaphot ability as a spit16. It's not even close. This is painfully obvious when gunning down ack.
A .50 bullet will penetrate 1/2 inch of armor @ about 500 yards. I'd like 3 rounds @ HT's car with a Browning from 400 out. (don't even need API) If he can drive it more than two blocks when it's over, I'll accept the in game .50 as accurate. Until then, I'll just deal with the .50s we have. :aok
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I'm confused why video settings would cause hits not to register?
Trying to walk through the process logically:
The round is fired, the computer registers it as a hit, displays the sprite on the video, and sends notification to the server.
Regardless of what happens visually, I don't understand why it would prevent the notification being sent to the server?
Not claiming to know how it works, just curious as to how the process works.
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Earl,
Your loss of "go boom" shooting 50cal in game may be due to a change in the internet between you and Texas.
Or your device that connects to the wall to give you internet access could be old and having problems.
Or your PC may just need normal maintenace like defragging your hard drive and doing something to reduce the number of running services before starting the game.
You got any freinds who work on their own PC's like some of us change our oil and spark plugs? If you do, have one of them read what I wrote then look at your PC. I'll bet it's something simple.
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Pand,
I've been a corporate server support engineer for 12 years. The drivers cause more to happen in the background than just displaying the screen. Drivers require CPU and GPU time and can delay the output of internal process data to other processes and functions. Whats happening in the background to CPU cycles or GPU cycles can impact communication to the internet of your go boom messages to the con's local client if there is a delay or congestion. Whats worse is you may only be aware of it as rubber bullets with nothing obvious showing up in the Varyence and Delay.
And the cost for a call to MS Desktop support to open a trouble ticket then help you run a live debug just to tell you your problem is your current video drivers: Priceless$
Check this link in the TechSupport forum and what happened to me recently:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,335239.0.html
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I don't disagree that it can cause problems, but at most it should still register as a hit and be transmitted to the server. Unless you're scoring some packet loss the hits should eventually arrive although potentially late.
Will check out your other post and thanks for the info!
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There are can not be any dropped packets. If you see a hit it will ALWAYS be scored on the unless you have just discoed in which case you would no longer be playing.
HiTech
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There are can not be any dropped packets. If you see a hit it will ALWAYS be scored on the unless you have just discoed in which case you would no longer be playing.
HiTech
:headscratch: The problem has to be my PC on my end! I have seen Colonel Pand land 9 kills in one sortie in a "B" model ponie, so the .50's must be working right, its just that I don't know enough to fix the problem. But, to the rescue, one of my squaddies to going to try to fix my problem. I can handle the flying issues's, just can't always fix tech problems. I am always impressed by the number of people playing this game that are computer experts!! Makes me feel like a 3rd grader.
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I was shooting at point blank range for two weeks and either seeing a hand full of scattered sprites or nothing with the tracers just kind of being absorbed into the matrix around the con. After rolling back the video drivers I was sawing wings off again and seeing bright hit sprites close and at distance with visible damage effects.
The latest and greatest video drivers were causing some form of congestion in my PC at my end. It was such that upping the speed of my video memory to match the speed of my FSB caused game CTD. With the drivers rolled back I don't experience the CTD while the video memory is set to the FSB speed.
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Yeah, as I understand it, a hit on your screen is registered as a hit, and sent to the server regardless of what appears on the enemy's screen. From what I've heard, when it happens is also irrelevant. Such as when you continue to take hits after you've been sent to the tower; you havent blown up on your opponents screen yet, so he keeps shooting. When he finally sees you die and stops shooting, you've already been dead for upto a few seconds. Add in the time it takes for the hit signals to stop reaching your computer, you've already been in tower for maybe 5-6 seconds, taking pings the whole time.
Just like warping, which also has its roots in lag and packet loss, only causes an issue with aiming, and not with doing damage, it really doesn't make sense that lag would cause issues with actually doing damage. Although I could see packet loss causing such issues, due to messages telling the server that a hit was made being lost.
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Yeah, as I understand it, a hit on your screen is registered as a hit, and sent to the server regardless of what appears on the enemy's screen.
Correct
From what I've heard, when it happens is also irrelevant. Such as when you continue to take hits after you've been sent to the tower; you havent blown up on your opponents screen yet, so he keeps shooting. When he finally sees you die and stops shooting, you've already been dead for upto a few seconds. Add in the time it takes for the hit signals to stop reaching your computer, you've already been in tower for maybe 5-6 seconds, taking pings the whole time.
Not 100 %correct, he is shooting and hits you multiple times. That burst of hits goes to the server, and the hits are enough to kill your plane, both those hits and the death of your plane are basically sent at the same time to the person being hit. We used to have people always complain that they were killed with 1 hit, but what was happening is that after your plane died on your front all the hits that killed you an were still in queue on your front end were not being played. We changed it so you hear all the hits that had been queued up. So most times you are just hearing the hits that killed your plane after you are in the tower.
Just like warping, which also has its roots in lag and packet loss, only causes an issue with aiming, and not with doing damage, it really doesn't make sense that lag would cause issues with actually doing damage. Although I could see packet loss causing such issues, due to messages telling the server that a hit was made being lost.
There are 2 different types of data transmission over the internet. UDP/TCP we use both types in AH. The key difference is what happens when a piece of data is lost. With UDP if a packet is lost it is gone forever, packets can even arrive out of order. With TCP each packet has a sequence number, if a computer receives packets 8 9 11, it knows one was dropped. When each packet is received, the receiving computer sends message back saying it received the packet. With packet #10 the computer will send a did not receive message back to the send computer for it to resend packet #10. Packet 11 will not be processed until packet #10 arrives. If the sending computer does not receive an Acknowledgment of any packets it sent with in a certain period of time, it will resend the packet until it receives an acknowledgment.
This is a simple description of TCP , but the end result is data can not be lost. But it can be delayed. So in AH information that must arrive like hits is sent via TCP. Positional update information and voice are sent via UDP, because if a packet is dropped, you really don't want it holding up the next positional update that is sent with newer position.
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So the waiting for the retransmission of a missing packet causes a lag much larger than just losing the missing packet itself and waiting for the next packet to update data?
There are more back and forth trips required for the server to request the missing packet and then for your computer to send it to the server?
UDP for the win.
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So the waiting for the retransmission of a missing packet causes a lag much larger than just losing the missing packet itself and waiting for the next packet to update data?
There are more back and forth trips required for the server to request the missing packet and then for your computer to send it to the server?
UDP for the win.
If AH was UDP only, there would be a keening banshee wail of hate and discontent over rubber bullets, etc... as hits would simply never be registered in the case of an interruption in data.
To put it even more primitively, TCP is like a telephone call. You are connected with another party, and if at any point in the conversation you miss something or otherwise do not understand something, you can simply say "What?" and the other person will repeat themselves (unless you are talking to my sister, which is more like UDP, see below)
UDP is the equivalent of a public broadcast, ex: broadcasting over a loudspeaker... you rattle off what you want to say... the guy chewing his nachos misses 1/4 of it, the old lady scrambling for her hearing aid misses half of it, and the guy with the whooping cough ruins it for everyone in close proximity. But, the monologue is never interrupted, etc.
The more I learn about AH's netcode, the more impressed I am.
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So the waiting for the retransmission of a missing packet causes a lag much larger than just losing the missing packet itself and waiting for the next packet to update data?
There are more back and forth trips required for the server to request the missing packet and then for your computer to send it to the server?
UDP for the win.
Lag is really not a good term for the issue.
Warps/smoothness of rendering the other guys is the issue. Basically the new position arrives long before any retransmit of a previous position could occur. Hence since you already now where the player is now, why would you want to know where he used to be.
HiTech
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Lag is really not a good term for the issue.
Warps/smoothness of rendering the other guys is the issue. Basically the new position arrives long before any retransmit of a previous position could occur. Hence since you already now where the player is now, why would you want to know where he used to be.
HiTech
So (correct me if I am wrong here) an aircraft traveling in a straight line suddenly warps high and to the right...
If his last known position and heading (that his client relayed to the server) was 0 degrees, 0 climb, 300 MPH, the server will continue to send that to my client until it hears otherwise?
At some point that player made a maneuver (right turn + climb) , but network connectivity issues delay that update on my machine until he is already high and right...
I am assuming that is basically what is going on behind the scenes when someone "lags" or "warps".
Is there a grace period of X sec/ms before someone is dumped? Is that secret?
When you receive the "Switching to TCP" message (can't remember exactly what it is) does that ever happen and you maintain connectivity? Every time I have seen it, it's just a prelude to a disco (which I assume is because that TCP switch-over is processed as a last ditch no matter what the actual issue is).
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I will apologise for the bad attempts I've made over the years to describe the game in terms of UDP only for all communications.
These past few repsonses from yourself HiTech have shined light where I suspect many have either entertained you beyond limit running off into left feilds not in our galaxy. Or driven you to slam your head into a wall over things like collisions, warping, lag switchs, rubber bullets and their various causes.
Of all of the above, the only one now that leaves me confused is the anatomy of rubber bullets. I think after your revelation finaly of TCP and bullet impact communication from client to client. We have been missing the boat in trying to describe and diagnose the issue.
TCP should insure we never get rubber bullets or whatever RB realy means in the game. From what you are saying about UDP and position update timing, RB almost would seem more like the issue of collisions and how the player on each side of the collision saw something completly different. If I'm sitting 100ft off the rear of a con emptying my magazines and seeing no hit sprites, then am I shooting into a delayed position of that con that my PC or internet connection is creating for me?
I experience RB from time to time but, other players have never described me as warping like some of my squadmates do to an extream. They still manage to shoot down other players with the bad warping from their end. When I experience RB I might be able to land a single kill per sortie and possibly have seen a hand full of hit sprites duirng that sortie. When I'm not experiencing it I can very often land hits on any plane I shoot at along with landing more than a single kill per sortie. When I experience RB, rebooting my router and PC very often fixes it. But, if the two Texas routers befor reaching the game server are acting up badly, I have to wait until they stop doing that to see hit sprites or man 88's and 17lb at GV bases for the evening.
Hitech can you help us understand what we have been trying to describe all of these years when we say "Rubber Bullets"?
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I tyically gets what I refer to as rubber bullets, when framerates drop radically, entering a field where there is multiple targets/friendlies in the area, typically a "horde attack" with many friendly uppers.
After I changed graphics card "rubber bullets" have been reduced dramatically for me.
I use Vsync on all the time.
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Hitech can you help us understand what we have been trying to describe all of these years when we say "Rubber Bullets"?
No I can not help you understand because I really have no idea what "Rubber bullets" are.
It seems to be a term used when people are simply having a bad streak with their gunnery, all I can tell you is that if you see a hit, it is scored on the server. I have had people claim what I say is not true, but each and every time we have tested it, or looked at films, (we even have code that will tell you each hit you send and each hit the host saw enabled with a permission flag like CM). The claim has been proven false.
HiTech
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Gotta agree with Hitech on that.
Every time I hear someone complain of rubber bullets, theres usually an explaination on his end of things. Whenever I was accused of hacking, or whatever, in-game, it was always by that one isolated twit that sprayed .303 caliber bullets all over the aircraft, and then complained when he didn't get a kill after expending 300 rounds, 3/4ths of which missed me.
Hell, I even got crap from one idiot who couldn't penetrate my Tiger I's glacis plate at 2000yds when firing at an off-angle with his Firefly. He said that the 17lber could penetrate the Tiger I up close, and so was pissed he couldn't do it at stand-off ranges. Turns out he was completely unaware of the fact that shells slowed down with distance traveled, and that penetration dropped accordingly. After a short discussion, it became apparent he wasn't even aware of the fact that drag was modeled in the game. He figured aircraft were just programed to slow down at a fixed rate when the engine was off.
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Then calling the phenominon a phenominon is probably more accurate.
So what is the phenominon that at 100 yards where the probability of at least a single hit sprite to occur, all the rounds are seen as passing through the con. I am not the only player over the years to experience this. I have watched this at full zoom over repeated sortie during an evening attempting to be fair to the idea I was simply having a bad night at the trigger. Then logged from the game and rebooted my router and PC. Came back in and at 100 yards on full zoom only needed to tap the trigger in the exact same sight pictures and cons blow up, wings fall off or cons fly away smoking and leaking fuel.
I know the sight picture is exactly the same becasue I have a drop compensation line in my gunsights that act as the benchmark for reproducing the aiming sight picture. Offline with the exact same sight picture and distances, all of the drones register hit sprites and fall to peices rapidly. After 10 years of constantly playing this game, it's a repeated phenominon which is hard to miss from my side of the shooting when it occures. It reproduces itself at 100 yards and closer on full zoom unloading my whole magazine into a con. No hit sprites, the rounds just pass through the con. At 100 yards on full zoom and the whole nine yards from any fighter you would think I would see at least a single hit sprite on a fleeing con. Simple odds are in my favor for just one sprite if it's a case of me having occasional senior moments at the joystick.
I guess after all of these years I'm just smoking too much crack and probably am so blind I can't really see my screen while hearing voices in my head from Mars. But, then UFO are considered a phenominon of the mentaly challenged even though they have repeatedly been visualy observed by people around the world but, no one has yet to record one in a manner acceptable by their local authorities.
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Bustr: Have you considered speed ,altitude and convergence also changes the drop in bullets, hence your sight lines are only accurate for one speed and one alt?
All I can say is FILM!
HiTech
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In almost 10 years I never had "Rubber bullet" issues, I have had BAD internet, BAD computers, bad video cards and bad aim, but never had shots I know I made miss, mostly because I do FILM everything in case i have a question.
People really complain far to much, I've played with vSync on and off, I see no difference other then slight graphic bugs.
Rubber Bullets? People have bad aim.
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Yes I've considered film.
Not knowing when the next occurence will happen as a rule, I would have to begin every evening I fly with running constant film until the next phenomenon's occurence. What kind of game debt will I perceive on my end to my quality of making others go boom if I have to run constant films as part of my game play routine until the phenomenon repeats itself? AT least the phenomenon has a peak time range from my perspective once it is observable. By 10pm PST when numbers in the arena drop off, if I haven't rebooted my router earlier. I will begin to see hit sprites again and record a few kills but, many more assists as the sprites never appere to result in much damage at any range. A reboot at even this time improves the kill numbers over assists.
How can ATT and other providors equipment contribute to creating this phenomenon as described such, that my game clients over years of ever updated clients show me the exact same phenomenon year after year?
My gunnery skill as a one size fits all source of the problem suggested by this audience becomes a canard in the face of the repitition of this pehnomenon over the span of 10 years. The odds of every player no matter their skill level achiving even "one" hit sprite in a combat exchange when firing from dead 6 at or under 100 yards exposes the canard. Not all players have the exact same quality of connection path or good fortune of internet packet passage as others if you disect that species of world wide network penomenon from across the globe. The percentages are in favor of "phenomenon" occuring once you are outside of an internaly controled LAN becasue of the higher traffic, whats known about internet infrastructuer and internet providors.
The explanation about gunnery information and TCP validates it is not the game producing the phenomenon via practical experience in the game and years of IT support. For example, late arriving rounds killing me after seeing the con in my rear view while experiencing my specific phenomenon. But, the phenomenon interacts with the game regardless in a manner that repeats it's symptoms exactly the same, while most often the solution is rebooting my current router and current PC. In 10 years this has been many different PC, routers, and two ATT DSL modem replaced, from my same location in Oakland Ca.
The worst case scenario is two Texas routers just before the game server showing errors and high ping times in PingPlotter to such a degree rebooting on my end does not aleviate the issue. Usualy 12 hours later barring a national issue, the routers are back to normal and the phenomenon is gone. Of the total occurences the routers are 20% of the time over any year in the last 10 and often anecdotaly in concert with national events to which U.S. based Internet subscribers would be online in peak numbers. I used to jokingly beleive since my last hop before Texas was an SF gateway, that it was driven by steer documentairy subscriptions being enjoyed in SF from sources streaming out of Texas.
As you can see I am describing an external penomenon which interacts with the game at least from my client application's perspective. I'm attempting to understand it's anatomy, not point fingers. I have never considered this HTC's fault, simply irritating when it occurs from time to time. Only a fool would assume the Internet like the ocean is a perfict and placid domain.
My apologies if my curiosity has detoured your time from helping solve your customer's solvable problems. The description of TCP tied to gunnery information was new to me and caused a train of curiosity.
As always if given a choice, please use a wooden ban stick if that is applicable to this issue.
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In almost 10 years I never had "Rubber bullet" issues, I have had BAD internet, BAD computers, bad video cards and bad aim, but never had shots I know I made miss, mostly because I do FILM everything in case i have a question.
People really complain far to much, I've played with vSync on and off, I see no difference other then slight graphic bugs.
Rubber Bullets? People have bad aim.
I really think this sums up most people's issues quite nicely. Film, or its your word against a series of possible explinations for the issue you're reporting. Unless there is film, theres no way to see any underlying problems.
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One thing I noticed with wing mounted guns be it the Browning 50 cal or what ever is that the convergence settings is a big deal. I was doing a lot of ground attacking of ords and radar in a P-51D because I have low frame rate and dog fighting it tough with no frame rate. I had my guns pushed out to 600 for ground targets and it worked great. However I couldn't hit another plane very well at all. I especially missed when I was close in at 200 or 300 meters.
What I found was I was shooting right over their heads and all because of my 600 meter setting. Remember your guns are well below your line of sight because they are in the wings. They may be 5 foot lower then you are in the cockpit especially in huge US fighters like the F4U. I dropped my convergence to 300 meters on all my planes no matter what I am flying and it seemed to help me. I still don't have much frame rate and that may be my biggest problem and I play on a 14 inch monitor. But my 50s hit planes much better now. Like I said before, go off line and try different setting until you find the range that works best for you.
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the closest thing to "rubber bullets" ive seen is more like "delayed bullets".
I think i've only seen it twice, where you will absolutely score substantial hits, and killshots on a target (or even multiple targets), but no result.. until minutes later, then everything "catches up". I especially recall one example a few years ago, I'm sitting on a vbase in an ostie, score multiple hits on several fighters with no result, a goon comes in, lands near me, I hit him about 100 times in the cockpit. nothing. a minute later, 3 or 4 kills pop up, the base is taken, and i'm in the tower.
I'll check see if I can find film, it might have predated the auto-film sorties tho..
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:bhead OK, Hi Tech, this is not a compliant, but a honest question. Has anything happened to change the effectiveness of .50 cal ammo? I am getting good shots from 200 to 400 yds, with sparkles all over the aircraft and not getting kills,(except every once in a while), don't even get a engine smoke. Don't say its my poor aim, because if you do, be glad to meet you in training arena and show you that I can hit a target at 400 yds as good as anyone else. What I am curious about is this, I have a HP desk top, 8.5 GB, with advanced graphic cards, (2) and 99% of the time, my frame rate is between 55 and 65. So, do you have any suggestions, beside flying up the con's rear and hope I get the kill? I am not the only one complaining about the effectiveness of .50 cal.
Honestly I have witnessed this myself, and I think the culprit is this. Compared to somthing like a 20mm the regular 50cal BMG round is not much to talk about. However..... American aircraft were loaded with API or Armour Piercing Incendiary ammo. The 50 cal would also mushroom as it went through an aircraft, meaning the entrance wound is a-lot smaller compared to the exit wound. That's why we see in guncams wings getting blown off in one or two hits with 50 cals, cause the round mushrooms out and tears the wing, however the distance the round travels through a target can effect this. So rarely would you see a one shot from a 50 cal. So yes you're right, but I don't code the damage model, and from what I understand that kind of stuff is really complicated. I think we should cut HTC some slack here, just slightly increase the effectiveness of P-51 P-38 F4U etc etc guns.
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WING47,
If the .50 is increased, as you suggest, the 20mm Hispano would also need to be increased per the US Navy's documentation.
Also, I don't see a lot of gun camera films from US fighters where a couple hits blow wings off.
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Yes I've considered film.
Not knowing when the next occurence will happen as a rule, I would have to begin every evening I fly with running constant film until the next phenomenon's occurence. What kind of game debt will I perceive on my end to my quality of making others go boom if I have to run constant films as part of my game play routine until the phenomenon repeats itself? AT least the phenomenon has a peak time range from my perspective once it is observable. By 10pm PST when numbers in the arena drop off, if I haven't rebooted my router earlier. I will begin to see hit sprites again and record a few kills but, many more assists as the sprites never appere to result in much damage at any range. A reboot at even this time improves the kill numbers over assists.
Game debt, eh.
Just put Auto Film on, when something happens press alt-r and save the film, then hit alt-r again. That way anything you need to see will be at the end of each saved film.
Jebus.
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I also have firied 1000's of rounds, One thng that most people here don't know is that aircraft M2s use a different barrel. shorter and lighter that the ground mount m-2s, it had a faster rate of fire but you would not have the long range with it. We got a few of them in Nam but found that they overheated very fast.
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I mostly experience the "Rubber Bullet Syndrome" :furious when I am very tired, :frown: or have been downing too many of HiTech's "flying Beck's" :cheers:, or am simply overcompensating for my convergence setting.:mad:
Interestingly enough, one night I was flying very refreshed (and sober :angel:), and found myself on the tail of a bad guy who was not maneuvering; :O an easy kill! I waited until I was exactly at my convergence setting, and fired...! After my eyes opened, I was surprised to see the con still flying straight and level...I had caught myself jerking the trigger and closing my eyes for just an instant...and that was all it took for the "Rubber Bullet Syndrome" to reveal itself to me.:eek:
I'm not saying that some folks don't experience technical issues, but I am saying that most of us can do some introspection and find that the "Rubber Bullet Syndrome" is mostly the cause of the one behind the trigger.
I don't know how many of you have been taught this phrase: "Beware of the driver driving the car behind the one in front of you"; it seems appropriate with "Rubber Bullet Syndrome". Think about it.
:)
:salute
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WING47,
If the .50 is increased, as you suggest, the 20mm Hispano would also need to be increased per the US Navy's documentation.
Also, I don't see a lot of gun camera films from US fighters where a couple hits blow wings off.
I did see one, I'm not saying that it happened all the time, it could happen, I don't want to get complicated, so no I'm not saying that. Just, I think, this is my opinion not fact, that depending on how much junk you have to go through, determines how much damage tho round would do, at least in theory.
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What is the weight of a 50cal round as found in our American planes?
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What is the weight of a 50cal round as found in our American planes?
around 150g, thanks me
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Something to remember, the M2 used on aircraft were different from ground mounted guns. The barrels were shorter/lighter and had a faster rate of fire. We got some of the aircraft barrels in Nam to use on 50 cals on our guntrucks, they over-heated really bad. No air flow to cool them. They also did not reach out as far as the heavy longer barrels.
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Even when flying slow the gunnery is easy with 50s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1grI-30Fk8
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One thing many people forget is the difference in trajectory and velocity. This is not such a big deal in an aircraft with all of the same caliber, but planes like the Fw190 I hear people more often than not complaining "I just put X # of rounds in that guy and he is still going!". When I inquire about the specifics it appears that the 2 planes were in a tight turn and the player that is shooting was hitting the target with all 8mm's or 13mms' and not the 20/30mm cannon.
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around 150g, thanks me
is that grams or grains?
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It varies from 647 to 800 grains (give or take) or 42-52 grams.
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Are we firing the M2 or M8? Modern or 1945?
M2 AP - projectile weight 706.7 gr (45.80 g) - 2,810 fps - 2004 --- AAF Manual 200-1 1\1945 - 2700fps
M8 API- projectile weight 622.5 gr (40.34 g) - 2,910 fps - 2004 --- AAF Manual 200-1 1\1945 - 2870fps
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Why not list them all? Mk211, Spotter, WP, APIT, AP, API, IT, Tracer, Ball, APEI. . . I like APEI.
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Cannons have way more snapshot potential. I think the people who seriously contest this fact are in the minority. However, one obvious problem true to all rounds is that they stop whenever they hit something. They don't go through whatever your shooting. .50s should go through everything.
Having said that, I've recently brought my .50s to <300yrds and have started sawing off vert stabs and killing pilots with 1/8sec bursts. Sure I get hits on targets at 400yrds, but I do most of my catastrophic damage at <300.
If your having problems with your .50s, I'd say look at your films. Look at the ranges in which you land hits and compare them to the ranges in which you land that final burst which actually destroys the plane.
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I disagree. While an aircraft with 50s can take (unloaded) snapshots at up to 800 yds a cannon equipped aircraft will most likely not be able to do the same, at least not with the same ease. Of course, the 50 equipped aircraft may not be able to knock down an aircraft with a snapshot at that range, while if the cannon aircraft scores hits it is more likely to. It has already been stated that an aircraft under load is much more likely to hit with the smaller guns over cannon. I dont think its the fault of the cannon. I think we are all programmed to fly like we are carrying 50s (we do it to ourselves) and then when we dont score with cannon it doesnt seem right.
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I set my 50's to 300, as messiah said, getting catastrophic damage beyond 400 is rare with 50's, even if your conv is setup that far
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I was doing some testing this weekend with 50cal and convergences.
I rolled all of my 50cal armed fighters back to the default convergences HTC has chosen for a first time install of the game. Has to be a reason for choosing those convergences other than to annoy us.
Turns out those short convergences are the optimal for devastating fighters and bombers with a 1sec. burst at defqault convergence range. DouH!! Holding your fire until the range begins the -400 countdown into 200 just chews up and drops off large chunks of the drones. I ripped the rudder off a B17 with a C202 set to default convergences by firing after -400 started changing for 1sec. I guess the game is just tough on MG only planes and their pilots past 300yds.
I tested Ki, FW, and spits at the default convergences and achived superior damage results. It's expected that the chemical payload in 20mm rounds makes distance a none issue. Dispersion becomes a relavent factor 400 and past though in the odds of enough rounds landing on a fighter sized target.
With the speeds in the LWMA and more often a prediliction for many players to avoidance than fighting. I can see how many of us logicly thought by pulling out the convergences we would have a known long distance IP point to use in the face of this. The only time I shoot down a con 400 and longer, I suspect is luck and an MG round kills the pilot. Luck has even landed HE shells at long distance on occasion but, not as a consistant thing except against bombers becasue of the size more than my gunnery. Luck is just that with an historicly modeled dispersion cone.
At 400yds the cone for MG and 20mm is about 5ft and at 600yds about 10ft. At 300yds its about 3ft and gets tighter closer. The game default convergences give a very concentrated dispersion cone between 275 and 350. A bit like the expected near range patterns I've found in harmonization manuals from WW2. Probably the same ones HTC used to help program gunnery in this game.
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What's the dispersal cone for the MK 108 then? If .50s have a 10ft cone at 600yds, then the 30mm must be more accurate than one would initially think, as the biggest problems you get with aiming 30mms are low velocity (and high drop as a related issue) and rate of fire, in that order.
Even at 500+ yds, I could typically count on a round or two hitting the target with just a 5 round burst (assuming I guessed correctly which way he would break).
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What's the dispersal cone for the MK 108 then? If .50s have a 10ft cone at 600yds, then the 30mm must be more accurate than one would initially think, as the biggest problems you get with aiming 30mms are low velocity (and high drop as a related issue) and rate of fire, in that order.
Even at 500+ yds, I could typically count on a round or two hitting the target with just a 5 round burst (assuming I guessed correctly which way he would break).
mk108 is like 60ft at 600yrs
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Even at 500+ yds, I could typically count on a round or two hitting the target with just a 5 round burst (assuming I guessed correctly which way he would break).
:huh Show me the way.
Seriously, I find that hard to believe. So you land 13 kills every sortie? (65/5=13)
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I said assuming I guessed correctly, which would be around 50% of the time. Add on top of that, I personally was a piss-poor marksman, so take away 2/3rds to 3/4ths for me screwing up the lead. Also, you're assuming I had a guns solution, saw all of them, and ample time to react on 13 targets.
In the K4, how many kills I LANDED varied greatly. I'd have some sorties with 8+ kills, others I would land just assists, and others I would die without having had a guns solution.
Also, the way I was taught the K4 meant that when I got to businesses, there were far more crossing shots than 6 o'clock or low angle deflection shots. Bear in mind that most aircraft have wingspans in the 30+ foot range, and the MK 108 acts almost like a shotgun at times.
I was just surprised the guns had that much dispersion, although actually thinking on it and comparing it to in game observations, its about right.
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What's the dispersal cone for the MK 108 then? If .50s have a 10ft cone at 600yds, then the 30mm must be more accurate than one would initially think, as the biggest problems you get with aiming 30mms are low velocity (and high drop as a related issue) and rate of fire, in that order.
Even at 500+ yds, I could typically count on a round or two hitting the target with just a 5 round burst (assuming I guessed correctly which way he would break).
For game considerations so we don't have to speak in meters.
437yds(400m) (drop 12ft) (dispersion 30ft).<---this is only acceptable at 500m\sec if your targets' wingspan is 100ft and flying level.
The game dispersion at 400yds tends to cluster roughly about 15ft with "occasional" random flyers out to about 30ft or so. But, if you are tapping out 3-5 rounds, more likely in the 15ft cone almost similare to 20mm at that range in the game. If you set your ammo to 10x then hold the trigger on your Mk108 for say 30 rounds, yes you will get a nice shotgun 30ft pattern at 400yds. Offline in the drone circle I can achive a 95% one shot hit accuracy against fighters at 400yds while I fly around for 15-20 minutes. I did this one day against a drone circle with I16s only.
At 400 yards I should barely be able to hit I16's with one tap kills and a dispersion and drop just short of 30 and 12 feet. I have tried to duplicate this shooting the NS-37 in the Yak9T with dismal results even though the round is a 900m\sec with the trajectory of the Mk103. Most of the time it takes a 2-3 round tap at 400yds with the NS-37 versus a single round tap with the Mk108 even though the NS-37 has a tighter pattern at 400yds and far less drop. Go figure, I can't.