Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: StSanta on April 06, 2001, 05:40:00 PM
-
Nath was, during some time, quite abrasive and his aggressive style and blunt way of critizising things he felt was wrong made him more than a few enemies.
I've decided not to discuss or debate HTC's decision of banning Nath for now, and can see both sides points of view. To a large extent it's between HTC and Nath, but in 9./JG 54, people are our most valued assets, and as such, I feel a loyalty towards squad mates that's very strong indeed.
When Nath joined 9./JG 54, there were some questions from members of this community about the decision from the squads side to accept him. Our view was, and is, that Nath is one hell of a stick and that under the somewhat blunt facade is a whole different side to his person. He's knowledgeable and has contributed a lot to the squad, be it in scenarios, tactics discussions or the creation or our web site.
Those who consider nath just an egomaniac with a potty mouth are, put simply, wrong. There's much more to it than that, but one has to bother to look to see it. All my life I've surrounded myself with people on the fringe of the "accepted norm" of behaviour. Some have been provocative, some have been outcasts and some have been rejects. All have been worthwhile once I've seen through the prejudices and easily formed unbased opinions. Some things there has been something to, others there hasn't.
So I was pretty sure that there was something beneath the surface, and I was right.
It's a fact that after Nath joined 9./JG 54, he has cleaned up his act a whole lot. Several people have told me so, and it's also been my and other squad mates experiences. Occasional outburst yes and when we think it gets a little out of hand, we let him know. Still, it's his prerogative to act on our advice or not, and he knows very well that if he behaves like an utter tard all the time, he won't be welcome in the squad.
But the thing is, he hasn't. And the communitys response to this ban has been, well shocking.
The schadenfreude has been unrivalled, and people have basked in his misery (cannot find another English words, sorry). Then, when it was pointed out, they sort of got straight faces and started acting all logical and civilized. However, they did show some character traits that I personally dislike.
Fortunately, there were also individuals that showed class. A big <S!> to them.
He's arrogant. That's the style of a Grünherzjäger. Another characteristic of a Grünherzjäger is to poke fun at your opponents, and rub things in. We give, and *we take*. Like everyone, we vent from time to time. Nath may not do it with the same sort of style as the rest of us, and is serious about his complaints most of the times (I tend to rant and rave when I get shot down, but usually it disappears after a minute or two).
Nath might be conceived as abrasive, but there are a lot of people out there that are equally abrasive. There are people who whine a whole lot more. There are people who game the game and are proud of it. There are kill stealers and car bombers and offmap dweebs; something I rate much worse than a "you HO dweeb, learn to fly" comment.
He ain't the worst and he's gotten a whole lot better.
Don't bring HTC's decision into this debate, please. It isn't about that. It's about a pariah or pariahs in general, and a squad mate. Some of you will think less of me because of this post, but that matters little; I remain true to my principles and that includes showing the other side of the proverbial coin.
When I know what the situation was like, I'll speak about it, and that'd include what I think about Nath's behaviour. I'm talking in general terms and about the community's reaction to him and others in the past. So HTC and the situation that caused the whole deal is not a part of the discussion, although I must say I am sorry about the damages done by nath, but also on him. For that, my apology and regrets.
<Soap box mode off>
------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 04-06-2001).]
-
I liked Nath, I think it is between HTC and Nath. I don't think bad about anyone who steps up to the plate and sticks by their squadies, hell i have to give you a big <S> to do that after what i have read also.
NUTTZ (i fly)
-
"Some of you will think less of me because of this post, .."
Quite the contrary. <S>
danish
-
<S>
Now I now why you our Staffelkapitaen, Santa... I agree 100%!
I had some arguing with Nath from time to time myself - but he is my squaddie and I won't let him down.
I don't know excactly what happened that night - but banning a person from AH brings a whole new side to the game - a bad taste, things are really getting a bit too serious now.
-
You're sticking up for a squaddie and a friend...how can anyone think less of you for that? As someone who isn't disappointed at all to see him go, I respect your opinion and am sorry your squad had to lose him.
While I agree that he's come a long way, I still rarely saw anything coming out of his mouth on the open channel that wasn't crap. HTC is trying to clean the community up and make it a nicer place to be, and as such I think losing Nath was a positive step in that direction, whether his being booted was related to that or not.
As far as him being a good guy underneath, I suppose that's possible, but not really the issue. What modivation would I have to try and dig through the crap to *possibly* find a good guy underneath when there are plenty of good guys around that don't need my special attention to act like decent human beings?
Of course, this is all just my opinion and I don't expect you to agree with me. For what it's worth, I'd be willing to bet that if you talked to him and got him to drop the attitude and go to HTC, hat in hand, they'd let him back in on at least a conditional basis.
SOB
-
Santa, that's about the most rational post I've seen on the topic. <S>
btw...Schadenfreude is getting pleasure out of harming others, or enjoying the misfortune of other people.
------------------
Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
[This message has been edited by Raubvogel (edited 04-06-2001).]
-
I agree with SOB. And with you Santa.
No roadkill. No one on my squad liked Nath. That doesnt mean I have to not like him. I used to have a good time with him, as unlikely as that may sound.
HT undeniably had some reasons to kick him, but that doesnt make me happy about he getting banned forever.
And if you think people will dislike you because of your opinion, wich is quite valid, the people who do disrespect you for it, do not matter one bit anyways.
-
Nath is a young person and perhaps his judgement concerning social situations isn't well developed yet.
On the other hand, I've had some fun exchanges with Nath via channel one. For the most part, they were in good fun.
I will miss the verbal exchanges with Nath; I will miss the opportunity to fly against him.
I think Nath should sit down and have a long conversation with himself. I think Nath should swallow his pride and confess up -- he should apologize to Pyro and HiTech for disrupting their business.
I think Nath is a good kid. If his IQ is 10% of his hand-to-eye coordination, he'll figure this out.
I hope that Pyro and HiTech will accept Nath's apology (if he makes it.) The bottom line here is that it's just business. It makes good sense to accept Nath back *if* they believe his apology is sincere.
Nath, swallow your pride and admit you screwed up, and come back. You aren't through teaching me (through Nimitz.) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AKcurly
-
You're still ok with me, you pagan. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Well put, and honorably said from the perspective of loyalty to your squad.
However, from the perspective of the entire community, quite frankly I would like to see a policy established from this incident.
As online sims go, the community here is largely a surprisingly pleasant mixture of maturity and fun-loving competitiveness, which is rare in any group of 200 or so "killers". In this, we are very lucky.
When a newbie comes along and becomes disgruntled, there is generally a helpful response. In time, the newbie realizes this is not an arcade game and hones his/her skills to the point where the game is enjoyable. What the newbie also realizes very early on is that the players really are mature - there is little complaining or profanity, and public displays of arrogance are shockingly minimal. The newbie grows into one of us, and begins to contribute just as most of us do.
We can give each other a bow for that, because we are all responsible.
The extreme should not be tolerated, nor should we have to succomb to repeated displays of public disruptive behavior that take away from the enjoyment of the game. Nath never bothered me personally, but I still had to put up with it, and it generally resulted in squelching the public channel. I shouldn't have to repeatedly give in to the negative feelings of one individual and lose out on what others have to say. I, like everyone else, am here to enjoy myself and as much of that enjoyment is the atmosphere that its players have created as it is in experiencing a great online flightsim.
My opinion is not intended to single one individual out, though I am rudely taking this opportunity to voice my message. If you don't enjoy the game, find something else to do - life is too short to be spent otherwise, and if you are malicious enough to ruin others' enjoyment, we don't want you around. End of story.
Your squad would do the truly honorable thing by cutting your losses and setting an example that we would largely applaud.
(http://www.nethawk.org/misc/NetHawk.jpg)
-
Nice post Santa...
I've been the subject of a tirade by Nath, and it didn't faze me one little bit. But that's because I knew what he was like, and the fact that he made the fatal mistake of actually posting a picture of himself on the BBS sure helped. Difficult to take a hostile gangsta fighter ace seriously when you know he's a actually a harmless-looking, middle class, 16 year old white kid (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If I hadn't known all this, I might have got pretty hostile myself. Or just quit, if I was, say, a WB regular trying AH for the first time.
I only shot him down once, in a scenario, when he flew his 190 into a pack of Spits and started turning. Dweebish? Nope, I believe he was trying to save a less competant squaddie at the time.
I'm sure you're right about the other side to his character. He's obviously both smart and a genuine enthusiast. And I will miss the chance to fight his 190s and 109s in the MA, no question.
But he really needs to learn from this.
Myself, I feel no hostility to Nath; However, he could have been a great asset to the community, but he either didn't know how or chose to go the other way. Ultimately, you reap what you sow.
Vladd
BTW Santa: "I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - U a Sisters fan or just liked the quote?
-
my most telling encounter with nathbdp as my adversary was my last one a while back. I was e fighting a zeke which I realized was nath after he taunted me repeatedly daring me to dogfight him. he hit one of my p38s engines as I b&z'd his zeke so I ran like a girl for base but was two far and the zeke caught my 1 engined twin and blew me up. we proceeded to get into a word battle and traded insults. then I said...
"Citabria: what the hell are we fighting about?"
"Nath: dunno, wanna wing?"
"Citabria: sure"
winged up and tore the heck out of everything in sight and got along famously.
its the nature of the game to be adversarial and it is easy to lose sight of the fact that the guys on the other team are not your enemy, even when they wipe the floor with you. the sting of defeat can be agrivating. how you choose to deal with it will determine the enjoyment you receive from sims like these.
it's easy to smile when things are going your way.
nath's a good person. he just needs to work on his temper and sportsmanship under adversity and so do a great many others including myself.
-
Not to get on any one side of the matter, from my perspective, being older then most in here, many of you are probably my son and daughters age or less <G> (not telling age) I appreciate what stsanta stated in defense of his squadmate.
stsanta for "sticking your neck out!"
secondly being the age I am, I've been down this path once my self, and got to relive a couple more times with my children <G> that we are all individuals, and some learn later in life that there are social resposibilities that have to be observed. this is not defending anyone in particular, just stating a fact.
It is important that someone make sure that individuals learn these responsiblities, and that they don't have to be monitored every minute to make sure that they do so. some might call this "growing up". I guess they'd call it that, I dunno, I haven't got there yet. But being a human being, I had to make mistakes and learn, if I made the mistake more then once, shame on me, my father had a nice black belt, and it wasn't in Karate <G>
I guess my point is this, people have given me second chances, I've needed a lot of them. Luckily these second chances were given to me. If I'd hadn't gotten them who knows. but I learned, I apologized, and fewer mistakes were made on my part. thinking before speaking was one of them. If they were warned repeatedly about misbehavior on the terms of agreement, then I guess what happened was warranted. as I said in another post, hopefully something was learned, HT and Pyro had to do what they did. and maybe, who knows, second chances aren't unheard of.
Hajo
-
Hm, thanks for the responses guys. It's given me renewed hope for the community and I think everyone has presented their POV in a rational, civil way. <S!> to you for that; i excepted to be flamed so bad I'd thought I was back in hell.
Vladd: I'm a bigtime and longtime Sisters fan. Got all their records and tons of bootlegs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Eldricht is one of the cooler dudes on this plant IMHO. Hope to catch them next time they're close by Denmark.
------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
-
<S>
Good luck with the negotiations 9./JG54!
Camo
------------------
Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
-
I will say evertime I actually found a way to shoot down Nath, it was a internet error resulting in me warping and I apologise. That didnt seem fair ever damn time I got near Nath, my IP just went to hell. Sorry man.
And the ack, evertime Nath got in it, it was 100% lethal. Seems unfair as I can usually avoid it.
I was online when he got booted, and I never saw anyone beg so much to egg on Hitech. I didnt think it was much, but yes, he BEGGED to piss off Hitech.
Oh well, as long as it's not a R4metz trilogy of drama. Hell be back, answering BBS questions like KEP to himself, and really, WHO GIVES A F#k?
-
Santa,
About the community, I've seen some remarks that I didn't like and I've seen some that suprised me with their clarity (your's for example). I've also seen many/most as kinds that I would expect to see in this type of situation, but everything I've seen has been with in the relm of what I would call "normal community behavior" in any gaming community I've belonged to. I think it must be a human thing. Alot of people didn't respect him, or hated him so much they couldn't respect him. They are happy he's gone. I can't blame them for that because I'm happy towd is gone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Now your squad should have a few more targets on the list of targets that make you feal real good when you kill them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Nath was on my list as are you Santa (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (not in a bad way Santa)
In any case I am sorry to see your squad and AH lose such a good stick. I didn't like him that much as a person, but I did have enormous respect for him as a virtual pilot. He was next on my duel list in the ladder when I had to drop out because of stick problems, just after Cit handed me my first loss in the ladder. I was realy worried that Nath was going to give me my 2nd losss too. I'd realy hate to see more of JG54 leave AH because of this too, but I can understand how friendship would force some to do that. That being said I understand why HT did what he did and support his decision. BUT I also hope that maybe they'll give the kid a 2nd chance, or 3rd if he already had his 2nd. Has Nath expressed any "regret" to you, his squadmates?
Cya later today in the senario (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
-
I never found nath to be a good player.
Nath was a loudmouth when he lost. His skill is far less than some of you seem to feel in my opinion.
Still i feel he got a raw deal. Give him a time out. A day a week a month whatever. The guy was anoying but the worst i have seen in AH WB or AW? No way not even close.
This guy /teenager was and is still down for this game big time. Its too bad he will have to find another ccard number to play.
Whenthinking about this guy i think its safe to say people mellow with age. How you act trying to kill every ace on the way up is not how you act when you think you have made it to the top.
With all the good players here im sure you all remember when you were scratching and clawing to the top?
Part of his prob was that oldtimers wont give the new hotstick anything. No respect no nothing. This leads to new guys argueing on ch1 just to get a little respect. Its the "Hey look at me" syndrome.
Eye
-
Hey StSanta :
When I was a young guy , was hanging out at the local gas station ( 1972 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )and started harassing the pump jocky . Well he's was one big dude and liked to fight at the bar etc . He was a friend too but , one too many times I bugged him (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
Now in real life I ended up pushed up on the wall of the station , he didn't hit me TG but I sure did learn my lesson .
Well sounds like Nath got a lesson too , hope he learns from it . I sure do remember "my lesson" .
Sincerely
spro
PS: Only got to shoot down the bugger once but I sure do remember it like it was yesterday . New I had made another step up in my learning curve (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Yep Nath u were worth 2.50 perk points , TY again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
His reply = :P
was funny , <S> and yes I was in a 109f4 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
If you read this , hope u do the right thing and get back so I can do it again , "maybe"
------------------
air_rules = Play fair ....Don't worry about points......Keep a sense of humor......Drink Jim Beam......and don't let the fediddlein cat walk on the keyboard.......!!!
(http://www.e-webgate.com/air/NonCGI/uploads/airspro/airspro.bmp)
[This message has been edited by airspro (edited 04-07-2001).]
-
Originally posted by StSanta:
Vladd: I'm a bigtime and longtime Sisters fan. Got all their records and tons of bootlegs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Saw them at the 20th anniversary gig in York a few months back, and it was superb. If you ever travel to watch them in England, let me know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Vladd
-
I agree with StSanta that Nath has a some good parts of his personality that most people don't see. I have had some very entertaining chats with him, about this game and others, and military history topics, and he has sent me some really cool info.
I think a lot of the problems he as here stem from some bad habits he picked up in other less "civilized" games where people don't treat people like people. He knows this and is trying to work on it. Obviously he is not 100% successful. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I hope that the recent incident will help him with this, and maybe he will come back and show the better side of his personality to more people than just those who go out of their way to find it.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-07-2001).]
-
I suspected as much funked. Somehow I liked nath but it was against my better judgement.
I hope he does make it back and can be a positive force in the game.
Y
-
Santa I too would hae backed any one of my squad members..even Animal (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I was very sick of Nath and his attitude. I also have no good memories of Nath....I guess you could say the only way I "know" him is from channel 1.
I think we all need a break (Nath included) and I'm sure he will be allowed back. He has already proven he can fly.....it will be up to him to prove that he can STAY.
-
Somehow I don't think he is coming back soon... Thought I'm sure were going to see him in another MMPG, hopefully soon.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/009149.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/009149.html)
-
<SALUTE> I respect Loyalty .
cut nath a break , perma bann without a tempa bann is cruel .
this post is not ment to be a personal attack
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Funny thought squelch option was something that was more appropiate...
As for the 'new' customers, not sure what kind of plastic fantastic people are out there..But one would hope they have a little more backbone than to get offended by a little razzing...
Nath hasn't even come close to the language and attitude that can be seen on a regular game of Counterstrike.
Good luck lads on getting your squaddie back.
Tronsky
486 Sqn (NZ), "hiwa hau maka"
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Skyrats/files/486.gif)
-
Originally posted by paintmaw:
<SALUTE> I respect Loyalty .
cut nath a break , perma bann without a tempa bann is cruel .
Paint, I absolutely agree with you here. HTC was and is lacking an established protocol for dealing with problems like the one here. While the Terms of Service grant HTC the right to terminate any account for any reason, HTC must avoid the appearance of arbitrariness.
I have yet to see an explanation that goes beyond HiTech needing to "assert [his] authority" in the main arena. Was Nath banned for a brief period of time to consider (excluding the brief and easily-negated mute function) his actions? Why the instant and permanent ban except to make an example of him? Why the dogmatic insistence on maintaining this ban at all costs?
I'd be less bothered by this if there was some sort of precedent. There isn't. If this is the way to start one, it's amateurish at best and pathetic at worst.
To be honest, what bothers me the most is hearing many members of the community graciously thanking HTC for doing what they themselves could not do... controlling and/or ignoring Nath. Hobbes smiles down on all of you today.
-- Todd/DMF
-
Todd-
Food for thought...
If it was me in this situation (and you know, I AM occasionally in this situation) I would have to consider a few things. First and foremost I have to consider that the person has rights, and is a human being. I then pull them aside privately and talk with them. I state clearly that the behavior has gone too far and will no longer be tolerated. I then release them with a warning. They go on for a while, then have another flare up. Since it has been some time since the last incident I consider that warning worked the first time, so I warn again, privately. This time the person has gotten the message that I really don't want to expel them (true) and decides to take things a bit farther. Emboldened they then push harder and harder. Warnings come and go, and soon it becomes obvious that nothing is going to work except expulsion.
Throughout the process the intent was to protect the person and the community as well. All contact has been private. There has been no need to discuss this matter as a public matter, so it wasn't. When the axe finally does fall, it is necessarily public. This is when everyone comes in and second-guesses the way you handled it. They don't know there was a lot of history behind that decision, or are so blinded by other factors they don't care.
It's like this: HTC did try to handle this privately before in a related topic with this individual, I know this for a fact. I also know that some will take my preceding words and find a way to convolute a way in which HTC is still responsible because they couldn't somehow make people behave- but isn't that the point?
HTC shouldn't have to teach you how to behave.
If anyone would like to see how difficult it is to get a problem child out of a classroom, read this topic and study its mechanations carefully. This has been extremely analagous, let me tell you...
-
I have a question:
"...hasn't even come close to the language and attitude that can be seen on a regular game of Counterstrike."
Is this to be the standard then?
If so, I'll be the one moving on.
The "Counterstrike" atmosphere on most servers is not something I enjoy. While my 16 year old played it quite a while, I finally erased it from the HD. I certainly didn't want him assuming that the social interaction and social "skills" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) displayed are in anyway considered "normal" or acceptable in my opinion.
Behavior that would be considered acceptable or even a bit "over the top" in any rowdy bar in the world would most likely pass without comment here in HTC's world. It already does, in my experience.
Those that go beyond such acceptability ...not once, not twice but multiple times.... after being warned about it are running a risk of expulsion.
HTC did not cause this situation. As the business owners, they were forced to react to it.
Don't lose sight of the fact that the type of community provided by HTC is the real issue here.
Perhaps a community akin to the "regular game of Counterstrike" is what some of you seek. It is most certainly not what I seek.
Perhaps that is not the goal of HTC, either.
Who then is responsible for such behavior? The person doing it.
Who then is accountable for such behavior?
The person doing it.
Responsibility. Accountability.
The attempt to shift the cause away from the originator of the problem is a wasted effort, IMO.
Can there be redemption and restoration? I would like to think so.
-
Damn, I never knew StSanta and Vladd (!!!) liked The Sisters Of Mercy! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Kewl!
(http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/tsom.jpg)
Regards
Nexx
-
Well, not to wander to far from the topic;
Last night on RW we were discussing having a lottery on the next to go, seems a certain someone (I hesitate to use his name, but his eye sight is poor) was really pestering HiTech, while HT was in player mode, we watched the buffer waiting fer HT to finally snap, but NO JOY!
However we did discuss that we thought HTC was being a bit harsh lately with the PERMANET bans, be more just I feel to do a temp ban to drive home the point before goin' full on persona non-gratis with em
-
I've always believed that I'm capable to take care of myself;
Without needing anyone to tell me how to live, who to listen, who to squelch etc. I do have my limits I obey.
Right now I feel kinda weird because obliviously HTC don't trust I'm capable to use squelch-command...
Guess there are people who don't know how to squelch someone so here's a instructions: In text-buffer type .squelch PlayerID and problem is solved.
Everyone has a right to tell his opinions to me and I have a right to ignore/squelch that person but what I don't have is a power to remove someone from community because his thoughts/words.
Nazis, Communists and Red Khmers were good at this btw (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I do understand HTC is a small company with its own responsibilities but for me it looks like the tools they're using are little "OverKill".
-
The gist of my post was this; how do most of us know what HTC has done with anyone privately before their public expulsion? Should the details of those private dealings be made public now? No.
Maybe some of you haven't been here long enough to know, maybe some don't remember. This isn't the first banning to occur in the game. In the last instance it was rescinded after a period of time. That person may or may not still be playing, but this is not the first time down this path, friends. See, for those thinking the sky is falling you should realize this isn't going to be an all pervasive activity.
Yes, I was on last night when a certain individual started needling HT. HT told him to knock it off, which as far as I know the person did. I have to say if I'm a betting man I would agree that if he doesn't soon find a different way to enjoy AH he may soon find himself on the outside looking in. Once again, it will be his choice.
[This message has been edited by Kieran (edited 04-08-2001).]
-
Everyone has a right to tell his opinions to me and I have a right to ignore/squelch that person but what I don't have is a power to remove someone from community because his thoughts/words.
Nazis, Communists and Red Khmers were good at this btw
Don't you find this to be the least bit hyperbolic?
Try to understand something here- if HTC tells you every bit of the history they have had with people that have been banned they violate their rights to privacy. If they don't explain, their actions are viewed as arbitrary and capricious. This is a no-win situation. Again I can assure you I live in this environment every day and I deeply sympathize with HTC here.
HTC is being forced into the position of being the "bad guy", despite the fact it is a few of the customers that are misbehaving. Sounds pretty screwed up, doesn't it? Temporary bans? They might work, but how do you know they haven't already been used? Further, I don't think it is much of a "stick". The defiant players will often respond with "so what, I was going to be gone for a few days anyway, no big deal". All we wind up having then is a dragging out of an inevitable ending.
The point is this for anyone who is missing it; you have to have a history of misconduct to receive a permament ban. There is no evidence to the contrary. Those references to "Gestapo, Communists, Khmer Rouge" etc. are way out of line.
-
The main problem I really have with it now is the way HT chose to go about it.
This should of not of been done openly in the arena.
-
While I think its admirable for StSanta to stick by his squad mate you can't ignore what Nath has done, I'm not wallowing in his demise, I did'nt really know him well enough or indeed get on the wrong side of one of his rants so I don't have any feelings either way. I have however in the past seen him rant and blow off a few times and he's got away with it and perhaps this is the problem, I've seen it so many times before online either in game arenas or forums. One guy who's been around the game/forum for a while starts to build a bit of an ego and think he can pretty much do what he wants and in this case Nath overstepped the mark I don't like to see anyone get booted but enough is enough and HTC have to firmly draw a line in the sand so that everyone knows where the boundaries are.
Jigster> By all accounts he was warned by HTC to knock his antics off and just play but he chose to ignore the warning, squelching can become counter-productive...can you imagine an very disgruntled Nath not only spouting off in the arena but then carryng it on into the forum like others have done after being squelched. By botting him there and then he stopped this happening and the bad atmosphere Nath started online was contained there and did not spill onto the forums.
As for the comments comparing the actions taken to Nazis, Communists etc are just theatrically way over the top and typical of people defending someone or something that was so obviously wrong, freedom of speech is one thing but you have no defense when you abuse that right.
HTC has done what they have done to continue to propogate a nice welcoming atmosphere for players to join and a showcase for those on trial thinking about joining Aces High. People like Nath do untold damage to HTC's business when their ego's give them a sense of being untouchable just because they've been around a while.
While some might say HTC's ban was harsh lets just remember Nath had been warned and I'm sure all it would have taken was for Nath to put aside his ego and make an unequivocal apology but judging by his recent locked post in the forum he has made some sort of apology but its far from unequivocal as his post in the forum still smacks of somebody that cannot see what he did wrong and this is only highlighted by his bending the rules again to fly in a scenario on someone else's account.
-
I may not be an "old-timer" like most of the guys who have posted to this thread, but I have been playing in the online community for most of 10 years (Muds, Doom, quake, q2, q3, AH). I have lead three quake clans, and I have to respect your post StSanta.
I've had to deal with several unruly clan members in my time (my last q3 clan numbered over 40 people), and I know how hard it can be to stand up for them, sometimes having to offer clan disciplining to the managers of the very tightnit Icelandic Quake community. The reason though, for my leaving the community behind, was unruly youngsters. They simply ruined the game for me, with badmouthing, constant needling, and even hacking. Out of 1000 active members of the Quake Federation of Iceland, only 2 have ever been permanently banned though. Many have gotten trial bans, and they invariably came back better for it. In light of this I fully support some form of discipline for the AH members. A permanent ban is maybe a little too firm, and I hope that HTC will lift this ban after some time, and give Nath a second chance.
My opinion of Nath has no bearing, but I will offer it nonetheless. He is a good pilot, yes, but so are very many others. He's shot me down, I've shot him down, but that's just part of the game.
I hope this matter will be resolved without the neccessity of a permanent ban.
Regards
Darling
-
Actually Toad the reference to Counterstrike was to give balance to the nature of Nath's comments.
There are far far worse online people in this world, and the shock and horror displayed at Nath is laughable.
More amusing is the "1930's RAF officers Club" mentality in the handling of this minor problem.
They haven't solved the problem, but merely moved it along, until the next guy comes along.
Temp banning should've been the solution in my opinion.
Tronsky
-
Who might that be milenko I don't know anyone like that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot
-
Santa, what's with the <The Pariahs> note on your MA squad name? Is this tongue-in-cheek?
It simply comes across as melodramatic and pretentious. It also implies that the whole of your squadron is actively targetted by HTC and the AH 'community'. You know this is complete BS.
Perhaps you ought to edit it to read <We have a Pariah complex>. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Nath was actively abrasive in just about every comment he made, either online or offline. He repeatedly went too far and HT was well within his rights to ban him. I don't care if he was 'a good stick', that is irrelevant.
You say that his style was that of a 'Grünherzjäger' and list attributes associated with your squad. But you fail to see that there was no good humour in any of Nath's remarks, unlike those I have seen you make. He aimed to annoy and offend and above all attention seek. He is a kid, sure, but that should not excuse his behaviour. Perhaps he'll learn a few lessons from this whole debacle - it would be a missed opportunity if he doesn't.
This is obviously just my opinion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
I don't have an opinion on Nath either way.(I noted that I never saw him <S> anyone for a fight he lost, but that's a subject of nurturing more than anything else)
I do, however, have a strict guideline for my squad that we follow, and it boils down this this: Treat others with respect.
This is a close knit community.
I doubt HiTech has banned him permanently from AH, maybe a month suspension, but HiTech is a rational human being...unless Nath was caught 'hacking' (doubt it), he'll be back.
I would suggest to any squad that hasn't done so already to have a clear and concise 'Rules and Regulations' of online behavior, because you'll be doing EVERYONE a favor, including yourself. Like I said, ours is short and sweet, "Do not harass folks unless its tongue in cheek, do not threaten anyone bodily harm and treat others with respect". Not those exact words, but that sums it up.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
I would suggest to any squad that hasn't done so already to have a clear and concise 'Rules and Regulations' of online behavior, because you'll be doing EVERYONE a favor, including yourself. Like I said, ours is short and sweet, "Do not harass folks unless its tongue in cheek, do not threaten anyone bodily harm and treat others with respect". Not those exact words, but that sums it up.
I'd like to add this is not something new or unfathombly impossible to do. Netiquette has been around since Mr. Gore invented the internet. ;-)
Trick is: Treat people online like you would in real life. Don't be an bellybutton just 'cuz you can, you start to look like a Luftwiener wearing leather (don't make me re-post Santa's picture).
-SW
-
Dowding, it could possibly be seen as a yellow pink invicible unicorn. Or a tongue in cheek comment. Or an answer to the question about the General MishMash, should such an answer exist.
It's also possible that it's a self ironic humorous comment set there to make a point. But I wouldn't bet on that, knowing from where the idea originated.
One could see it as a little test; people will read into it how they see the squad. in your case, like a collection of victimized pompoused gits who feel sorry for themselves and targetted because they've lost two members to bans in as many days.
But that might probably most definitely maybe be perhaps something assembling the truest of falsehoods. Again, I could be wrong about it.
Rip you have an excellent point I agree with.
We got general guidelines, such as LW only and the need to be arrogant Preussian aristocrats who're looking down at anything non LW and letting our contempt of such things known as often as possible (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I believe I shouldn't police others and they shouldn't police me, in general terms and in how they express humour or sarcasm. Glasses does it in a different way than I do, and Nath rather harshly expressed his opinions which he in my book is entitled to. Kirin does it in an elegant smooth like glass style full of subtelties, and VoX is always ready with a few naughty words. Glunz's laid back sarcasm is unmistakeable, and I can tell pirado by the way he puts things, even if he'd hide from under a different handle. Habicht's approach is as compromising as a freight train bearing down on a lame deer tied to a cement block put on the railway tracks.
Who am I to judge them on the way they express themselves, unless it is grossly out of place, just trash filled with profanity and childish talk? I have in the past talked to members about such behaviour and will do it again if needed, but I do not think it's in my place to police unless absolutely necessary. Knowing me, I'd be an evil tyrant in no time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And as Toad would say, it's about freedom and responsibility. We're just a bunch of dudes that hang out and fly together. And I really like these dudes company. With friends, you cannot just select desrieable traits and eliminate unwanted ones. You take what you get, pros and cons.
Ugh, soap box mode again. I hate myself when I'm on the soap box like this, telling people what they already know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif). Sorry, but I just want my position to be clear even if it means repeating what you chaps already know.
------------------
Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
-
I don't see you squad as anything other than a collection of individuals who like LW planes. I choose to dislike or like each one on merit, not simply because they happen to fly under some pretend squadron affiliation.
I did not say you were all a bunch of egotistical, pompous self-obsessives (apart from Nath, the rest of your squad have always seemed like good lads), just the way it looked from the outside.
I don't know why, I guess I'm just intrigued, but could you elaborate on why the comment appeared in your squadron tag? And you can dispense with the need to 'smokescreen' the issue with a coverall 'It means whatever it means to you' statement. I think that is what you were saying in your last post. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, who is the second person to be booted from AH? I don't really have time to browse the BB at the moment.
-
Originally posted by Dowding:
I don't know why, I guess I'm just intrigued, but could you elaborate on why the comment appeared in your squadron tag?
Maybe it has to do with the fact that I'll be joining them soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Dowding, ok (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Just a tounge in cheek smartass comment by me. As usual (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Might be time to replace it with something different, but equally offensive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And yeah, what r4m said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). We're getting an old school gang together here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 04-10-2001).]
-
Santa, one thing stood out in your reply:
Who am I to judge them on the way they express themselves, unless it is grossly out of place, just trash or childish talk?
You are not one to judge, but one to observe. You know as well as I do that I never asked anyone in JG2 to refrain themselves. I tried to lead my example. Sure, I let the egos ride, that's part of the game, but *If I was CO* with Nath, I would have tried to reason with him and let his mouth do the complaining on the BBS, email to HTC, or other methods to vent. I'm sure you did too. As far as Nath's comments to HT that day, they were all the above..."grossly out of place, just trash or childish talk"
I like to think as a CO as one that leads by example. Everyone has a right to freedom of speech, and freedom to express ones self. But there IS a time when that line is crossed, and its up to the CO to draw the line, and talk to individuals about the consequences there within, such as pushing it so far as to get ejected.
One side note: in the 12 years I've been online, I've seen many "Nath's" get booted, many for less than what Nath said and did. Is he the first to be ejected? Nope. Will he be the last? Nope. Nath is just another user that crossed over that line a wee bit far, in a line of others that have done so in the 12 years I've been online.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 04-10-2001).]
-
I thought so Santa. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) It wasn't offensive, just didn't seem like your style - seemed very whiny. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Heya RAM. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If you are concentrating all the most controversial people in one squad, perhaps you should ditch the German squadron stuff altogether and shoot straight. <The Pariahs of Aces High>. At least it would keep them in one place. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
But all the GOOD controversial people fly LW!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"