Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Mar on July 28, 2012, 05:18:06 PM
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Is the following normal behavior?
http://youtu.be/Kjxmt8DbakI
Is it more prone to doing that with more flaps out, or should flaps not make a difference? It was loaded with full ammo and 50% fuel, and the aft tank was empty. You should be able to see what I'm doing with the rudder quite clearly.
This is the DCS 51 by Eagle Dynamics, and comparing it to AH it feels like a sloppy mess when you fly it, especially at low speed with flaps out, just doesn't seem right, but that might be because I've only really flown AH all my life.
I just want to know how accurate I can expect HTC's 51 to be, or if I should re-learn how to fly with ED's 51. Exactly what kind of simplifications were made for the planes in AH that would make them fly differently?
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I've only recently started flying the 51-D again. You can get it to slide sideways with full right rudder and left aileron, though it seems to only do it at lower speeds. I find it harder to perform at higher speeds. Flaps don't seem to make it easier or harder to perform (for me anyways). Unlike the 109 or P47, which I can successfully spin around in the skies 180 degrees, the P51 is a lot tougher to do this with (or, again, for me anyways). It seems to stop turning at 90 degrees, though I'm sure there's someone out there with enough skills with this plane to make it dance around the skies for him.
I'm just an amateur with this plane though, maybe someone who knows the plane better will show up.
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Is the following normal behavior?
http://youtu.be/Kjxmt8DbakI
Is it more prone to doing that with more flaps out, or should flaps not make a difference? It was loaded with full ammo and 50% fuel, and the aft tank was empty. You should be able to see what I'm doing with the rudder quite clearly.
This is the DCS 51 by Eagle Dynamics, and comparing it to AH it feels like a sloppy mess when you fly it, especially at low speed with flaps out, just doesn't seem right, but that might be because I've only really flown AH all my life.
I just want to know how accurate I can expect HTC's 51 to be, or if I should re-learn how to fly with ED's 51. Exactly what kind of simplifications were made for the planes in AH that would make them fly differently?
Asking what simplifications in AH were made makes me assume you are already biased towards your opinion.
Do you mean the DCS 51 is a sloppy mess or the AH 51?
Looking at the video it it appears that the plane came into a stall during the end of its right hand turn, which caused it to start to roll to the left. The pilot then gave it full rudder towards the turn, and then full opposite rudder causing the plane to snake sideways towards the right at maybe 30-40 degrees which then stalled the left wing and caused the plane to crash.
In AH a 51 will do the same thing, perhaps quicker? (if thats what you mean)? We can not tell how quickly the pilot inputed those control commands, or how quickly the aircraft can respond to such inputs.
To me it looks like the same that an AH 51 will do with full flaps at stalling speed with extreme(ish) control inputs.
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The problem is you THINK your flying a P51. Your not, your playing a game with programmed dynamics. HTC has set his as close to what he believes is what a pony flies like ( and he has flown one) and the Eagle Dynamics game has done what they think it is like. Comparing them is apples and oranges as they will NEVER compete against each other.
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Asking what simplifications in AH were made makes me assume you are already biased towards your opinion.
Do you mean the DCS 51 is a sloppy mess or the AH 51?
Looking at the video it it appears that the plane came into a stall during the end of its right hand turn, which caused it to start to roll to the left. The pilot then gave it full rudder towards the turn, and then full opposite rudder causing the plane to snake sideways towards the right at maybe 30-40 degrees which then stalled the left wing and caused the plane to crash.
In AH a 51 will do the same thing, perhaps quicker? (if thats what you mean)? We can not tell how quickly the pilot inputed those control commands, or how quickly the aircraft can respond to such inputs.
To me it looks like the same that an AH 51 will do with full flaps at stalling speed with extreme(ish) control inputs.
I think he wants to show off his DCS pony. I dont see anything that disagrees with the way AH handles the same poor handling.
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The problem is you THINK your flying a P51. Your not, your playing a game with programmed dynamics. HTC has set his as close to what he believes is what a pony flies like ( and he has flown one) and the Eagle Dynamics game has done what they think it is like. Comparing them is apples and oranges as they will NEVER compete against each other.
A good comparison for any flight sim is the A2A simulations P-51. That is the most accurate P-51 to ever be on the computer. I have it, and I honestly think that Eagle Dynamics has it closer to the real deal so to speak. And also, the game is still in beta, there are changes still to come and they have been updating it regularly. I've never flown a real P-51, so I'm never going to know for sure, but I have a good idea of what it's like at low speeds.
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If we are going to pick another interpretation of the P-51Ds modeling. I vote for the History Channels modeling for it from the show Dog Fight. That looks about right to me lol.
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A good comparison for any flight sim is the A2A simulations P-51. That is the most accurate P-51 to ever be on the computer. I have it, and I honestly think that Eagle Dynamics has it closer to the real deal so to speak. And also, the game is still in beta, there are changes still to come and they have been updating it regularly. I've never flown a real P-51, so I'm never going to know for sure, but I have a good idea of what it's like at low speeds.
Again, Hitech has. Did you ever wonder why their is an RV8 in the game? It's not because Hitech is an egotistical show-off..... well ok maybe he is :devil I'm sure he compares the game version with the real version to see how close he can get with the changes he makes.
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I'm not trying to show off the DCS 51, I'm trying to make sure they got it right. I'm not biased in my opinion, I asked that because there are things such as engine operation that I know AH has simplified. Now assuming ED has got this part right, slamming the throttle from idle to full would cause the engine to sputter before it responds, and then the RPM governor would have to catch up, making the RPM overshoot maximum and affecting torque.
It is the DCS 51 that feels like a sloppy mess. I have tried doing that slip with various amounts of flaps and no flaps at the same speed, the more flaps are out the worse it slips like in the video. No flaps and it seems to act more like the AH 51. Even before this it felt to me the flaps were modeled wrong. I can't get the AH 51 to do the slip at all the way I did in in DCS.
In the video I hit hard right rudder and then let go before I got halfway into the slip. I did not use any aileron. Afterwards, I leveled my wings and touched a little left rudder to recover, like I do in AH, but it didn't seem to do anything. However comparing what I saw in the game to what the video is showing me and other tests, it seems that if I would have held hard left rudder it might have recovered, but my experience in AH has shown me the most important thing is get the wings level and let the stabilizer do its job.
Bottom line, it feels like flaps lessen the vertical stabilizer's authority, much different from AH's pony. As I said I just want to make sure they got it right, because frankly I trust HTC's experience with WWII prop plane research more than I do ED's, and it would suck having to relearn flying with something that doesn't handle the way it's supposed to.
Oh, and after that stall before the slip I recovered fine and was flying normally, I didn't use any rudder except that hard right to slip. I was trying to enter the turn again and I thought I was at a pretty high AoA, but I can't really tell because there's no stall horn yet like there is in AH.
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Your slip is pretty sloppy alright. Take it up to 8k and film it slipping down to land with the same flap settings... or full flaps. Try a falling leaf which should require gingerly transition on crossing the controls the nearer the edge you are. Everything you have done so far looks like a pony.
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Again, Hitech has. Did you ever wonder why their is an RV8 in the game? It's not because Hitech is an egotistical show-off..... well ok maybe he is :devil I'm sure he compares the game version with the real version to see how close he can get with the changes he makes.
I realize that, and I never said that HTC's P-51 was inaccurate, nor did I say he was an egomaniac, but since you brought it up I think he is :cheers:. I just think that ED has better flight physics, AH though is nothing to be ashamed of as well. Why don't you go and take a look at that A2A P-51, I think you will be surprised because these guys flew one too, hours on end and it was flight tested, it's about as accurate you can get to the real thing on a home computer. :aok
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<snip> I think you will be surprised because these guys flew one too, hours on end and it was flight tested, it's about as accurate you can get to the real thing on a home computer. :aok
I am sure they did not try with the real 51 anything close to what is seen in that vid.
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I am sure they did not try with the real 51 anything close to what is seen in that vid.
Are you trying to F%@# with me, or do you just not have any info, they did use the P-51, real pony pilots say this is the way it flies. Some even use it to practice aerobatics and flying the aircraft itself. These A2A guys really know what their doing, and before coming back to me spend more than five minutes watching some tutorial video for all the FSX dweebs who only know how to fly the easy mode P-51 included in Microsoft flight. Why don't we bring this back to is the pony capable of such slide slip.
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What he said was they did not auger by stalling a pony that low to the ground.
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Once you start down this road it becomes steeper and slicker with every step and ill thought emotional retort. Ultimatly you will stray into into a territory where someone will feel angry enough to embolden himself to insult Mr.'s Hitech and Pyro in their own house.
This is a game that has to be playable by a full spectrum of skill levels from the moment anyone hits the spawn button. The downloadable pony simulator for $39.99 is not a combat game which hosts hundreds of players fighting each other at the same time. So the programers can go overboard on as much realism and eyecandy as modern stand alone PC can grunt out short of jacking a cord into the back of your head.
There is no facile face value reason to presenting a comparison of the DCS mustang to the AH mustang in this forum other than as a well meaning mistake in judgment. Or, an attempt to communicate to HTC the existance of PC based simulator ww2 aircraft that are being presented in a manner more to the OP's liking. We recently weathered trolls and shills for WoP in a similare manner.
This post has acted like a honey pot to enable strife via other wise politely held dissagreements with the AH flight modeling. Already posters are using heated language while defending DCS as a superlative simulator where the mustang is concerned.
If you gentelmen want to be honest in your dissatisfaction with elements of this games flight physics, honestly lay out your greivences and take your chances of being moderated by the programers you will have to insult. It's too easy to insult other posters as proxies for your real issues with the management.
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I make no claims to have data to back it up. I've never flown a P51 for real.
What I do know is having flown it a bunch lately in the MA and it some scenario bits, it does everything that I've ever read by wartime Mustang pilots. If you get too slow, it gets sloppy. But it turn fights well if you fight at the speeds that it turns best, and use a bit of flap now and then. It has the speed to get you out of trouble, and it has the range to go a long way. It fights well up high, and can knife fight down low.
Not sure what else you want from it. All I know for sure is it lets my cartoon pilot and my imagination pretend I'm a WW2 Mustang driver when I fly it which is all I ask for.
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Are you trying to F%@# with me, or do you just not have any info, they did use the P-51, real pony pilots say this is the way it flies.
Chill out man. Jeesh. Is pot illegal in your country or something?
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As a kid a family friend owned a P-51D he used in air shows until he was killed in a plane accident in 1966. Ray was a flight instructor for the 51 in WWII. while Ray's plane had no armor or guns and didn't fly with a combat load of fuel it was an amazing plane. He would fly it 20 feet off the ground at 400+mph right in front of the grand stand at an air show. Then clime straight up until it stalled. He could get it to spin around and almost point back in the direction it came from and it was as maneuverable as you could ask for.
One of the things I will always remember is Ray letting me kneel behind his seat in the cockpit where the fuel tank use to be while he taxied it down the runway to his hangar where he kept it, I could feel the motor in my chest. Maybe this is why I have always been a bit disappointed in the Aces high P-51D. Maybe I would feel different if I had foot paddles and a computer and more frame rate. I wonder what someone like Chuck Yeager would think of HTC's modeling of the P51-D?
I still like the 51 in Aces high and it is about all I fly. It is fast carries a lot of ords has great range and speed to get you out of Dodge if you need to. like I said else where in this thread if I was going to pick a another modeling of the 51 I would go with the modeling on Dog Fight from HBO. But watch what you wish for or you could see everyone flying a 51 in the game and how boring would that be?