Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pyro on April 06, 2001, 06:30:00 PM
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This is not our hobby. It is our livelihood, it is our investment, it is our obligation. It is all the work, risk, and stress that that entails. The success of this endeavor is not only determined by our hard work and perseverance in continuing to make a better game, but just as much by the people that play the game. A person logging into the game for the first time, seeing a bad environment and then leaving is never going to know how good the game is because that's just the half of it. The person who logs in, sees it, and parrots that behavior as fun and normal just completes a vicious cycle. This is a social game by nature. That doesn't mean that everybody has to be sociable, but it does preclude antisocial behavior. Our subscription fee gives you the prerogative to use, not to abuse. We're not going to watch this situation unfold where players and potential players are driven out and displaced by the lowest common denominator.
This business wasn't started so we could turn customers away, what business is? By the same token, we never sold a subscription with the understanding that that person would drive other customers away or detract from the game experience. These latest events weren't isolated, they were the culmination that caused the action to be taken. It's not something we want to have to do. It's just another stress and more time and energy burned. But if we have to go backward in order to move forward then that's what we have to do and we're better for it.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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As a business owner myself , I understand how stressful it can be . You guys are doing a great job <SALUTE>
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I'm sure the majority are with you on this one. Good luck.
bowser
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NM
[This message has been edited by hogfarmr (edited 04-06-2001).]
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Pyro,
I think I understand your decisions even if the people who have to go were friends. I know it must be hard for you guys to have to do this, and still you manage to come here and try to explain things to the customer base, when its not your obligation.
I am sorry that you have to see some of your own customers making accusations to you or HiTech. Keep up the good work.
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It sounds reasonable to shoot for something inbetween:
"No shoes, No shirt, No sevice"
and
"Coat and tie required"
This is a wise move, and I hope the atmosphere improves.
A wise a asteroid once said'
"AHHHHH, The ATMOOOOOSPHEEEERE!"
eskimo
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The great success of this game it is mainly due to the relationship among the customers and you, the providers, owners, designers and sometime also players.
It shows clear that more than a bussines, you love what you do. I if your job were something else, you will be plying here during your free time.
GO ON THIS WAY.
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Pyro, you have my support on this.
I think the unfortunate position you were put in demanded the actions taken.
Dago
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Originally posted by eskimo:
"No shoes, No shirt, No sevice"
Huh? Now I've gotta fly with my shirt and shoes on?!? Well, at least it doesn't say anything about my pants! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
SOB
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Pyro:
You guys have the patience of saints.
Hooligan
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Well done Pyro <S>
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(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwD6d60JNIFs2mHfM9ggHF4xY6Gy1uBBOIL0vAzWuZ4VQ!pBhaoFjvmZM4qCFICQ)
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 04-06-2001).]
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I can't help but to compare this to public education. It is nearly impossible for public schools to expel even the worst students, the ones that tend to ruin it for everyone. Other kids see what the worst kids get away with and make little effort to behave. Many public educators feel that just being able to expel 1 or 2 of the worst kids would improve the atmosphere of the entire school immensely. It seems to work for private schools.
Anyway, I hope that "expelling" some of the more offensive players has the same impact.
eskimo
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"AHHHHH, The ATMOOOOOSPHEEEERE!"
amen.
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Originally posted by eskimo:
I can't help but to compare this to public education. It is nearly impossible for public schools to expel even the worst students, the ones that tend to ruin it for everyone. Other kids see what the worst kids get away with and make little effort to behave. Many public educators feel that just being able to expel 1 or 2 of the worst kids would improve the atmosphere of the entire school immensely. It seems to work for private schools.
Anyway, I hope that "expelling" some of the more offensive players has the same impact.
eskimo
Eskimo, you KNOW I understand precisely what you mean! S! from one teacher to another.
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You have my total support.
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Pyro,
Thank you for the actions you were forced to take. Thank you especially for the comments you posted. Information is far better than a vacuum. There are some here who would try to fill the vacuum with supposition and innuendo otherwise.
<S>
Mav
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It's a nasty job but it has to be done. There will always be trouble makers and some can only be dealt with as you have done. This makes the game so much better for the rest. Kudos for caring enough to explain it to us.
grizzly
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Thank you.
It was bugging me more than I first thought. Glad you guys are on top of it.
Y
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HTC, you guys did the right thing. Yoo put me in mind of back in the sixties when I was a wise bellybutton adolescent who thought the world owed me a living. We'll neither this wise bellybutton nor any of the other wise bellybutton guys I attended a Catholic High School in Phila. would ever think of stepping out of line beyond the unwritten rules and perish the thought that we should ever even think of bringing a gun to school. Know why? Because one priest or another would jump across three rows of desks and beat the living crap out of us, that's why. Discipline is good for the soul, beat the crap out of one or two guys and the others will toe the line.
Beeg
P.S As far as teachers today, God help you.
Originally posted by eskimo:
I can't help but to compare this to public education. It is nearly impossible for public schools to expel even the worst students, the ones that tend to ruin it for everyone. Other kids see what the worst kids get away with and make little effort to behave. Many public educators feel that just being able to expel 1 or 2 of the worst kids would improve the atmosphere of the entire school immensely. It seems to work for private schools.
Anyway, I hope that "expelling" some of the more offensive players has the same impact.
eskimo
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All things carry an accountability, responsibility and consequences, some fail or refuse to recognize that, what had to be done was done, you did the right thing IMO,and I'm sure all of us look forward to future updates,....game on!
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I agree 100%! I myself nearly quit after my 2 week trial because of these ignorant loud mouthed whiners.
Regards
Nexx
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Keep up the good work HTC...<S>
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From the businessman's point of view, many of the players should be booted long ago.
Non-profitable parts of the company should be removed when possible, and players who abuse their rights are a negative income at best.
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Pryo and the HT gang
thanks for a great product & a great time
Eagler
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It's still ok to shoot people down tho right?
lazs
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HT/Pyro
You guys have more patience/thick skin then I.
Think a "few" here just need to take AH alittle less seriously and have some fun.
Oh,and remember it's a work in progress (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Stalker (edited 04-07-2001).]
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<S> Pyro
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Once a player is removed from the game, many times they will learn their lesson and come back to become a valued asset. Facing the reality that they have lost something they loved can change a person.
grizzly dabear
Knights of AirWarrior
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Originally posted by lazs:
It's still ok to shoot people down tho right?
lazs
Only you Lazs
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Damn, forgot that you changed to rook. Why do we have that killshooter thing again? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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<S>
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Hmm... I think this is more delicate than we want to realize.
Yes, a community like ours needs rules and those rules must be followed - if one does not follow those rules he will be punished.
One risk of this procedure is to create a really boring, one sided, amorphous community. Like in those clubs someone mentioned "coat & tie required" - personally I detest such places because people going there think they're SOOO elite but the truth is that they're just boring. I think a community needs colour diversity - not uniformed, auto-nodding members. If everyone is thinking and doing the same thing there will be no advance. Thesis + Anti-Thesis = Synthesis.
AH is my No.1 spare time killer and I really enjoy it. I found good friends in my squad and beyond.
From what I take from Pyros post it looks like that Nath was banned because he was a disturbing element in the community. From what I know and read he didn't perform any abusive action against any community member, neither was he destructive towards the game itself. Alright, his diplomatic abilites are less developed than his flying skills and he can be a pain when in loudmouth-mode. He might have been inconvinient - that's enough reason to kick him out?
If yes, we looking ahead into a very uncertain future. History showed us several times in the past what happens when a community starts to expell inconvinient individuals. And I not talking about really abusive, destructive people - just about people who didn't fit in the scheme of a perfect community member. Do we have to be afraid of what we type on squad channel because we could be monitored saying something that doesn't please HTC? The "Welcome back, Nath"-thread really shows how denounceiative (spelling?/word?) our community has become. This is the first step into the void.
Don't get me wrong - AH is still the best WW2 sim out there, there is no alternative. I <S> the HTC crew for their great work - but this community thing leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
Beware what kind of spirit you summoning...
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~Kirin~
(http://members.tripod.de/Sir_Kirin/Sig_Ta152f150.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Kirin (edited 04-08-2001).]
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<S> Kirin.
My poor english don't give me the possibility to express exactly what I mean, but your post is 100% what I'm thinking about the argument.
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Kirin, I think I understand what you are saying however I cant see that what HTC is trying to create will turn out to be a "boring, one sided, amorphous community". The community here just by the mere fact of its diversity lends to the opposite. Just asking folks to have an attitude of respect and restraint can only improve the atmosphere. if everyone just gets to express whatever foul language or insulting remarks they feel like does nothing to inspire a good community.
NAth has been around a while now, as nath11 and then on to be nathbdp. I can only say that although I personally didnt enjoy his company, I held no grudge against him. We were just different. But I do recall other events back in 2000 where folks were complaining about him. I dont want to rehash them, I am not here to bash him. Just wanted you to know that it seems that nath has been given alot of breaks too.
ammo
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If you can not enjoy the use of the establishment without abusing the establishment or the other patrons,then you do not belong there.Try it in any bar in real life.There are many avenues open in HTC to voice complaints in a reasonable manner.
SALUTE to the staff of HTC.
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I was on-line when this occurred. I did NOT see the full story, as I had squelched channel 1, and was trying to squelch Hi-tech's blue text at the same time! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
My take it on it was that Both HTC and the community suffered here. From what I saw of Hi-techs text in blue could only have been characterised as inciendary, gaurenteed to cause Nath to become more reactionary. From the one side of the conversation (that I couldn't avoid seeing) it was very poorly handled, unless Hi-techs aim was to bring Nath to the point of saying somthing for which Hi-tech could publicly ban him. As the result was a permament ban, and HT isn't a fool, I can only conclude that was his aim.
Nath should have been muted, and then spoken to directly, without bringing the rest of the arena into it, and if that failed to resolve the issue, then by all means suspend/ban him.
I also found the locking of Nath's thread distastefully heavy-handed, and forsee problems ahead for HTC if they try and run a business like a private club. Sure we need discipline in the arena, but it shouldn't be with both sides standing on soap-boxes berating each other.
Wasn't dignified chaps, regardless of the rights and wrongs of it.
Fidd
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Fidd,
Do not judge this thing based on this SINGLE occurence. You do not know even a tiny bit of what really happened here. The problems with Nath have been going on since he was Nath11, in short a long, long time. This was just the final straw.
He dug his own grave.
<S> to HTC for doing the right thing.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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same hear this the best game i found
as a matter of fact im even quitting WB after 4 yrs i just dont play it any more this ones #1 in my book great job HT ,pyro
you have my suport 100% too
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DRILL
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moose.. when u get a little older and ur reading comprhension get's a little better u will probly find out that there are people on this board who you disagree with even more than you do me.
lazs
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Hi Lephturn,
Don't worry! I'd figured that the ban was likely richly deserved! My point was that in this instance, it might well have been the "right thing" as you put it - but done in very much the "wrong way". From my point of view (as I saw it on the night)HT *appeared* (to me at least) to handle it pretty poorly. The fact that I became aware from BBS posts that Nath "had it coming" is neither here nor there, as its the impression that new players form of the way the arena is "policed" as seen in the arena, that is at issue here.
What I *saw on the night*, had I not bothered to follow up the "story" on the boards here, would have caused me to form the opinion that AH is rather capriciously policed. It's the *appearance* of the thing I'm commenting on, especially as viewed by a lot of newer players (such as myself) who were unaware of the preceding history. I'm certainly NOT saying that HT did't do the right thing, merely that it could, and *should* have been handled very differently. IMHO of course.
It didn't inspire confidence.
Fidd
Originally posted by Lephturn:
Fidd,
Do not judge this thing based on this SINGLE occurence. You do not know even a tiny bit of what really happened here. The problems with Nath have been going on since he was Nath11, in short a long, long time. This was just the final straw.
He dug his own grave.
<S> to HTC for doing the right thing.
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Actually Fidd....it seems that Nath was given multiple chances on the very day in question. I believe that Superfly muted him once and then HiTech muted him at least once before the boot came.....so the question remains, "how many times do you let him get away with it before you take harsher actions?"
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Hehehehehe
I am highly amused by some of the reasoning I have been seeing. 3000 customers (or whatever the number is) from across a tremendous social spectrum seem to be able to meet a very minimal standard of behaviour. However just a very few individuals can't seem to meet this standard of civility and are booted. Then I hear: "That was too harsh; they should have been banned for a short while and given another chance."
IMO they may have needed a timeout when they were 5 years old, but now it is probably way too late.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by lazs:
moose.. when u get a little older and ur reading comprhension get's a little better u will probly find out that there are people on this board who you disagree with even more than you do me.
lazs
Oh, I disagree plenty. You're just easy to pick on. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And age has little to do with anything it seems when it comes to Aces High, does it?
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I think you guys at HTC are doing a great job. I may not totally agree with the way the game is setup, but I still enjoy it.
I have a few friends here (and part of a great squad) that I enjoy flying with and I enjoy the social interaction with just about everyone I have seen online here in AH.
Most everyone is very helpful and even if you get the best of them or they get the best of me they will usually say hello and good job.
This makes my free time online very fun and stress free. I have always felt that no matter what you do if you hitting the stress button it's time to change what your doing.
If your not changing what your doing it's almost a guarantee someone will change it for you.
Have Fun everyone,
Isn't that what your supposed to be doing anyway?
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Chuck Perry
"Sky61"
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Hi, I wasn't evading your question, it just didn't seem pertinant to the issue I raised, namely that it was done in public. However, seeming as you ask this (to me unrelated) question, the answer from my point of view is one chance, at least of the ultimate sanction - ie lifetime ban.
Assuming offenses are bad but not outrageous:
1st offence - you get spoken to, privately.
2nd offense you get muted, and suspended a week; and emailed why.
3rd offense you get final (emailed) warning.
Any further - you're gone, for good.
This is about what I'd favour. Notice that the severity is probably worse that HT's forbearance - but it's all done privatly. No martyrs, no drama, just bushwhacked.
Incidentally, I'd make it so that after the 2 week trial, you pay $60 for 3 months, rather than 3 (cheaper - $30 is expensive) and thus ensure that anyone wanting to create hell in the arena under an alias gets to pay $60 for the privildge. Call it bill aversion therapy! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Fidd
Originally posted by sling322:
Actually Fidd....it seems that Nath was given multiple chances on the very day in question. I believe that Superfly muted him once and then HiTech muted him at least once before the boot came.....so the question remains, "how many times do you let him get away with it before you take harsher actions?"
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I don't know Nath and I don't know what the hell is going on.
The job that HT has is a fine line. We have alot of freedom with this game but sometimes it gets over stepped.
On the other hand we do pay a fair chunk of change to HT to play, which makes it difficult to provide a great atmosphere for gaming and yet keep your customers happy.
Now before everyone starts blistering me let me make it clear I am not complaining about the price (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) {Just dont raise it please} (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What I am trying to point out is that HT has a very tough row to hoe, with keeping customers happy and keeping the standards of the game intact.
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Fidd, im not flaming you, and don't disagree with your thought prossess. But almost every thing we do concerning this stuff ,you never see. Therfore you realy don't even know how the situation was handled. We won't post in here what was done or how some one abused the system.
HiTech
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Some examples:
I bought a thousand dollar, custom built computer system a few years ago. When I got home, there was no power cord. I called them, and I admit there may have been a little hostility on my part, since it was thirty miles away and they would not bring me my cord. The owner of the small business asked me to bring it back, he would refund my money, didn't want my business. Fine with me, I have bought at least 5,000$ worth since then, and needless to say, he didn't want it.
I am a salesman, I deal with irate customers on a regular basis. Sometimes they curse me and my forefathers, but I suck it up. Ain't no big deal and it certainly doesn't hurt my feelings. They get over it and we keep on doing business.
The only difference here is that these Yahoo's acting childish in the arena does impact other customers. If one of my customers hammered on another of my clients, then I would consider closely if I wanted his business.
It is these guys(HTC) life, so respect their choice and learn by what they do not want.
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gentlemen, I think it's about time we let this matter drop from the boards. It's over and done with. starting to look like a group of old women gossiping now. Let's drop the subject please. No ones going to win a message board argument anyway. Let's grow up and let this matter die.
Hajo
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Snipped from another thread:
Try to understand something here- if HTC tells you every bit of the history they have had with people that have been banned they violate their rights to privacy. If they don't explain, their actions are viewed as arbitrary and capricious. This is a no-win situation. Again I can assure you I live in this environment every day and I deeply sympathize with HTC here.
HTC is being forced into the position of being the "bad guy", despite the fact it is a few of the customers that are misbehaving. Sounds pretty screwed up, doesn't it? Temporary bans? They might work, but how do you know they haven't already been used? Further, I don't think it is much of a "stick". The defiant players will often respond with "so what, I was going to be gone for a few days anyway, no big deal". All we wind up having then is a dragging out of an inevitable ending.
The point is this for anyone who is missing it; you have to have a history of misconduct to receive a permament ban. There is no evidence to the contrary.
Kieran
This is what several people have tried to convey. No doubt there will be those upset over the events of the last few days but hopefully as the dust settles and rational minds return this can be viewed a bit more objectively.
Gadfly-
Very true. Sad when a lurker sees things far more lucidly than people that are here every day...
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Originally posted by Gadfly:
Some examples:
I bought a thousand dollar, custom built computer system a few years ago. When I got home, there was no power cord. I called them, and I admit there may have been a little hostility on my part, since it was thirty miles away and they would not bring me my cord. The owner of the small business asked me to bring it back, he would refund my money, didn't want my business. Fine with me, I have bought at least 5,000$ worth since then, and needless to say, he didn't want it.
I am a salesman, I deal with irate customers on a regular basis. Sometimes they curse me and my forefathers, but I suck it up. Ain't no big deal and it certainly doesn't hurt my feelings. They get over it and we keep on doing business.
The only difference here is that these Yahoo's acting childish in the arena does impact other customers. If one of my customers hammered on another of my clients, then I would consider closely if I wanted his business.
It is these guys(HTC) life, so respect their choice and learn by what they do not want.
You pouted and whined over a $3 cable? And you are awed these guys keep doing things for you? You should be. I'll bet if you have a computer failure one day beyond your warranty, those guys will be cheering the loudest. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) <Just kidding>
But I disagree with you on the fact the people acting childish on the Main Arena DO effect other players. I, and speaking only for I, find in annoying. I've been in IRC Chat rooms more closely moderated. The free online games (NovaLogic's Delta Force and F22 ones) are laced with this kinda banter and as a result, I no longer play these games much. So, for a place a PAY to play on, I would expect that the arena ARE monitored and moderated, so that everyone is playing per the rules of the user agreement.
And my money does my talking. If I have to see oodles of offensive babble on the Main Arena, on a regualr basis, I'll leave. While it would take quite a bit to really push me over the edge to do that, I would.
If you don't like the rules, or knowing they are enforced, too bad. We're expected to be adults in here, or act least act our age. Sure we have bad days, but that's no excuse. Sorry folks, time to be held accountable, and responsible, for your actions. And long overdue, I say.
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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Originally posted by Hajo:
gentlemen, I think it's about time we let this matter drop from the boards. It's over and done with. starting to look like a group of old women gossiping now. Let's drop the subject please. No ones going to win a message board argument anyway. Let's grow up and let this matter die.
Hajo
Hey Hajo, are you the silly old lady in the blue hair? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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Actually if you read it more closely, LePaul, you see that Gadfly does agree with you. He is merely stating a tenet of business on the front end. Look at this:
The only difference here is that these Yahoo's acting childish in the arena does impact other customers. If one of my customers hammered on another of my clients, then I would consider closely if I wanted his business.
See? And he's right about having to deal with unruly customers- it is a fact you have to put up with some crap or you won't have much of a business. The real issue is just how much will you put up with?
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Yes, and it wasn't the three buck cable, it was the fact that it wasnt THERE.
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Originally posted by Gadfly:
Yes, and it wasn't the three buck cable, it was the fact that it wasnt THERE.
So you wanted a guy to drive 30 miles to bring you a $3 cable? Hey, whatever, but I'm up here in the puckerbrush of Maine. Poop happens, and if a $3 cable was acidentally left behind, big deal. Drive to Best Buy or Staples and grab one. And if you really wanna be uptight, send the receipt to the computer store and have em pay you back.
<shrug>
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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Any kid who can borrow or steal their daddy's creditcard can get an AH account..
Now this is certainly a very bad thing because as we all know, the net is FULL of immature and even sick individuals.. Some of the people are simply deranged.
That is why it is ESSENTIAL that HTC keeps a tight leash on the community. Paying customers or not, the day you start damaging the mutual property - be it by means of hacking or harassing others on regular basis - your money should not be good for HT anymore.
Keeping players like that would simply be bad business and I doubt HT wants to do bad business.. If I was him, I'd hand out much more warnings and in case the player turns out to be stupid enough not to comply, get rid of him. 1% of abusive clients make 90% of disappointed customers! So I say get rid of the 1% before the 90% decide to go somewhere else to spend their time!
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LePaul LOLOLOLOL yes, blue hair, pretty expensive also, comes in a bottle I get at the drug store <G>
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Originally posted by LePaul:
So you wanted a guy to drive 30 miles to bring you a $3 cable? ... Poop happens, and if a $3 cable was acidentally left behind, big deal. Drive to Best Buy or Staples and grab one.
What does your time cost? At $15/hr a drive to Staples makes that cable a $7.50 deal. Some people make much more then that to play delivery boy. More poop happens to those who think it's OK for poop to happen.
Pyro - finally I may be able to show the game to my co-workers without blanking out the radio buffer. Great!
miko
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Just for the sake of argument on this one...
I wish I could quote the study (can anyone?) that suggested that companies occasionally intentionally left parts out. They knew that the vast majority of consumers would assume it was an error and would go out and buy the missing parts themselves. Multiply the little bit of money saved over many units, and you have a potential windfall for the company.
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heh, when I bought my dvd it didnt come with the IDE and ATAPI cable. Called the store (Best Buy), they couldnt do anything as they only sold the part for the company. I said no problem, called the company, got some retard on the line.
4 days later I received a brand new DVD rom with all the cables (it was even faster than the one I had bought). Funny thing is, they never asked me to return the old one or sent me and RMA or the likes.
Sis got a free DVD, used old ATAPI from old CD-ROM and IDE cable... and lived happily ever after. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
IMO, if HTC believe they need to ban people its their choice. Its THEIR bussiness, you are a costumer. If you dont like it, move on, if they dont like you, you're gone. Its not a public service and HTC is not obliged to give you that service.
Now fix my P-38 dammit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)