Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Fud on August 13, 2012, 07:56:25 PM

Title: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Fud on August 13, 2012, 07:56:25 PM
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bda_1344882489   :O
Thankfully no one was seriously hurt...
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: MarineUS on August 13, 2012, 08:28:34 PM
Holy moly.  :O

Thank God no one was killed.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: homersipes on August 13, 2012, 08:34:51 PM
 :O holy crap
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: W7LPNRICK on August 13, 2012, 11:34:56 PM
Well that's #2...there will be a #3 very soon.... :noid
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Tupac on August 13, 2012, 11:37:50 PM
ANOTHER SMALL PLANE CRASH!

<sigh>
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Chalenge on August 13, 2012, 11:39:47 PM
Domain blocked. Nothing worth seeing and nothing worth losing your system over.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: 1sum41 on August 13, 2012, 11:48:40 PM
Well that's #2...there will be a #3 very soon.... :noid
they always come in 3s.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Tupac on August 13, 2012, 11:54:34 PM
Planes crash all the time, every day, it's really not news. It's a risk, but it's an accepted risk we take everytime we step into an airplane. Titles like "ANOTHER SMALL PLANE CRASH" perpetuate fear mongering and are part of the problem. The people who want to close airports and make GA inaccessible because of "danger" get hard-ons for stuff like this.

I'm not attacking you personally, just voicing my opinion. It's one of those things that really grinds my gears. I can't tell you how many times I hear "OH MAH GAWD, THOSE THINGS ARE SO DANGEROUS!"
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: JOACH1M on August 13, 2012, 11:55:30 PM
Domain blocked. Nothing worth seeing and nothing worth losing your system over.
You can always get a new system with all that money you got...

Well I'll leave it to you to figure the rest out. :angel:
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Chalenge on August 13, 2012, 11:58:29 PM
You can always get a new system with all that money you got...

Well I'll leave it to you to figure the rest out. :angel:

And with your money you can visit jack-in-the-box and the hospital in that order.  :angel:
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Golfer on August 14, 2012, 12:03:17 AM
Planes crash all the time, every day, it's really not news. It's a risk, but it's an accepted risk we take everytime we step into an airplane. Titles like "ANOTHER SMALL PLANE CRASH" perpetuate fear mongering and are part of the problem. The people who want to close airports and make GA inaccessible because of "danger" get hard-ons for stuff like this.

I'm not attacking you personally, just voicing my opinion. It's one of those things that really grinds my gears. I can't tell you how many times I hear "OH MAH GAWD, THOSE THINGS ARE SO DANGEROUS!"

You actually contradicted yourself there.  A valid argument one could make based on what you just wrote is those on the ground accepted knowingly no such risk and shouldn't be subjected to it. I don't disagree with that argument, FWIW, which is why accepting crashes as part of life isn't acceptable for a pilot. Strive for perfection, despite it being unattainable. Chalking mishaps up to "it happens, deal with it" doesn't do anything but light a fire under the NIMBYs.

Oh, light airplanes are dangerous.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: JOACH1M on August 14, 2012, 12:15:55 AM
And with your money you can visit jack-in-the-box and the hospital in that order.  :angel:
Went over your head didn't it?
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Tupac on August 14, 2012, 12:21:21 AM
You actually contradicted yourself there.  A valid argument one could make based on what you just wrote is those on the ground accepted knowingly no such risk and shouldn't be subjected to it. I don't disagree with that argument, FWIW, which is why accepting crashes as part of life isn't acceptable for a pilot. Strive for perfection, despite it being unattainable. Chalking mishaps up to "it happens, deal with it" doesn't do anything but light a fire under the NIMBYs.

Oh, light airplanes are dangerous.

Yes, reading it again I realize I did. Light airplanes are dangerous - statistically, someone on Pilots of America did some research and put flying GA in somewhere between riding a motorcycle and driving a car. I don't remember exactly, but it was closer to the motorcycle. 90% of accidents are caused by pilots - the light airplanes themselves are not inherently dangerous, it's the people who fly them.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Meatwad on August 14, 2012, 07:57:30 AM
they always come in 3s.


Here is #3 that happened north of me

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/332697/3/Pilot-killed-in-central-Illinois-plane-crash
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Tracerfi on August 14, 2012, 08:11:23 AM

Here is #3 that happened north of me

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/332697/3/Pilot-killed-in-central-Illinois-plane-crash
SAD  :cry
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: CAP1 on August 14, 2012, 08:19:09 AM
ya know? when landing on 09 at south jersey regional, we cross the road, and wires. i always tend to fly final a bit high there because of those.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: MrRiplEy[H] on August 14, 2012, 09:46:56 AM
You can always get a new system with all that money you got...

Well I'll leave it to you to figure the rest out. :angel:

Linux is totally free to install, doesn't require money to be able to watch any video from any domain you wish without worries :)
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: JOACH1M on August 14, 2012, 10:37:59 AM
Linux is totally free to install, doesn't require money to be able to watch any video from any domain you wish without worries :)
Well, I don't even think his 'game' even took off.


 :noid
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Midway on August 14, 2012, 10:38:56 AM
A nearly daily event somewhere in the US.  http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: deSelys on August 14, 2012, 10:48:41 AM
About #3, lots of comments already on skydivers forums.


Looks like the Beech 18 looks really cool but isn't best suited for skydiving: relatively low powered, low tail (risk of a jumper hitting the tail), elevator in the burble when skydivers are hanging at the door, CG out-of-limits if too much skydivers at the door during jumprun.

Apparently, jumpers wanted to make a big way (group) exit (12 jumpers) and discussed with the pilot who said it was ok but he would have to fly the jumprun faster to avoid stalling (old time jumpers are saying that they never jumped groups bigger than 9 back in the day when Beech 18 was regularly used as jump plane, and in those case the remaining jumpers were cramming themselves as far forward as possible to keep the CG manageable).

Pilot took off downwind (12-14mph wind) with full fuel load and full jumper load, barely clearing the trees. This did not contribute to the accident but maybe points to some lack of judgement on the pilot's part.

Did the pilot forget about the pre-takeoff briefing? Anyway, he slowed down a lot for the jumprun with the flaps up. Stall while jumpers were positioning themselves at the dorr, violent wing drop, plane got inverted and dove straight to the ground. All jumpers managed to escape, last one above 6,000 ft. Videos from the Go-Pros that some jumpers were wearing are said to be chilling, though (probably seized as evidence).

Pilot wasn't able to recover obviously and couldn't bail out. Blue Skies to him and condolences to the family.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: B4Buster on August 14, 2012, 10:59:52 AM
snip

What alt were they jumping from? I have flown some jump runs in a Twin Otter. 90% of our turns were at 14K - with an occasional turn at 7K if the jumper didn't want to pay to be carried to 14. Flying through the jump is a non-event (atleast in the Otter which is undoubtedly a much better jump platform than the Beech) as long as you are constantly trimming the aircraft. You can tell when a fatty vacates the plane, though!

I feel as though the pilot should have had plenty of time to recover from an unusual attitude, but I will mention again I have never flown a Twin Beech.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Shuffler on August 14, 2012, 11:02:05 AM
About #3, lots of comments already on skydivers forums.


Looks like the Beech 18 looks really cool but isn't best suited for skydiving: relatively low powered, low tail (risk of a jumper hitting the tail), elevator in the burble when skydivers are hanging at the door, CG out-of-limits if too much skydivers at the door during jumprun.

Apparently, jumpers wanted to make a big way (group) exit (12 jumpers) and discussed with the pilot who said it was ok but he would have to fly the jumprun faster to avoid stalling (old time jumpers are saying that they never jumped groups bigger than 9 back in the day when Beech 18 was regularly used as jump plane, and in those case the remaining jumpers were cramming themselves as far forward as possible to keep the CG manageable).

Pilot took off downwind (12-14mph wind) with full fuel load and full jumper load, barely clearing the trees. This did not contribute to the accident but maybe points to some lack of judgement on the pilot's part.

Did the pilot forget about the pre-takeoff briefing? Anyway, he slowed down a lot for the jumprun with the flaps up. Stall while jumpers were positioning themselves at the dorr, violent wing drop, plane got inverted and dove straight to the ground. All jumpers managed to escape, last one above 6,000 ft. Videos from the Go-Pros that some jumpers were wearing are said to be chilling, though (probably seized as evidence).

Pilot wasn't able to recover obviously and couldn't bail out. Blue Skies to him and condolences to the family.


Just wow.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: deSelys on August 14, 2012, 11:28:10 AM
B4Buster, there is no mention about the jump alt so I guess that it was a regular 13,5K-14K ft.

Nobody knows why the plane dove straight to the ground without any clearly visible recovery attempt by the pilot.

Some jump pilots who have flown the 18 said that it isn't an easy plane in the skydiving environment.

One pilot stated:

Quote
To pilot an aircraft like the Beech 18, AT-6 Texan, Stearman, and most aircraft of that vintage requires a VERY different stall recovery, and spin recover technique than is being taught today. And they are NOT forgiving at all. There is a reason I teach my students precision spins, deep stalls, turn stalls etc, BEFORE they do their first solo. If they cannot perform these maneuvers with precision, they don't solo. It is also why I teach in a 1946 Champ taildragger. Modern airplanes are idiot proofed.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Fud on August 14, 2012, 11:39:58 AM
About #3, lots of comments already on skydivers forums.


Looks like the Beech 18 looks really cool but isn't best suited for skydiving: relatively low powered, low tail (risk of a jumper hitting the tail), elevator in the burble when skydivers are hanging at the door, CG out-of-limits if too much skydivers at the door during jumprun.

Apparently, jumpers wanted to make a big way (group) exit (12 jumpers) and discussed with the pilot who said it was ok but he would have to fly the jumprun faster to avoid stalling (old time jumpers are saying that they never jumped groups bigger than 9 back in the day when Beech 18 was regularly used as jump plane, and in those case the remaining jumpers were cramming themselves as far forward as possible to keep the CG manageable).

Pilot took off downwind (12-14mph wind) with full fuel load and full jumper load, barely clearing the trees. This did not contribute to the accident but maybe points to some lack of judgement on the pilot's part.

Did the pilot forget about the pre-takeoff briefing? Anyway, he slowed down a lot for the jumprun with the flaps up. Stall while jumpers were positioning themselves at the dorr, violent wing drop, plane got inverted and dove straight to the ground. All jumpers managed to escape, last one above 6,000 ft. Videos from the Go-Pros that some jumpers were wearing are said to be chilling, though (probably seized as evidence).

Pilot wasn't able to recover obviously and couldn't bail out. Blue Skies to him and condolences to the family.


This goes back to 99 or 2000 at the WFFC. We were last to load up in a Casa and I was the last in that line. I looked up and saw a jumper trying to do an accuracy land on the starboard prop. He almost made it, missed it by about 20 feet. He was close enough to have his chute waft over the windscreen.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Dago on August 14, 2012, 11:48:31 AM
A nearly daily event somewhere in the US.  http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/

Kinda along the lines of what I was going to say, there is on average almost one small plane crash every day somewhere in the USA.  Doesn't come in threes, comes in almost daily.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: B4Buster on August 14, 2012, 01:53:49 PM

Some jump pilots who have flown the 18 said that it isn't an easy plane in the skydiving environment.


Yeah, I don't imagine that's a terribly easy aircraft to operate, especially with constant C.G. changes.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: W7LPNRICK on August 14, 2012, 05:30:18 PM
Kinda along the lines of what I was going to say, there is on average almost one small plane crash every day somewhere in the USA.  Doesn't come in threes, comes in almost daily.

We see this imaginary numerology injected into lots of different areas of society...It was intended sarcastically....in the nursing home when one dies all the nurses/caregivers, say"I wonder who the next two will be?".... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: pembquist on August 14, 2012, 06:06:32 PM
Car crashes can be really nasty but they get cleaned up so fast that most people never see the aftermath. When a light plane goes down it is always news.  The thing that is nice about light planes is that excepting mid airs (which give me the heebie Jeeves) your fate is in your own hands to a much larger degree than when you are driving.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: LilMak on August 14, 2012, 08:51:08 PM
Car crashes can be really nasty but they get cleaned up so fast that most people never see the aftermath. When a light plane goes down it is always news.  The thing that is nice about light planes is that excepting mid airs (which give me the heebie Jeeves) your fate is in your own hands to a much larger degree than when you are driving.
Yea. When you're driving you life is more often in the other guys hands. I'm more worried about accidents driving to the airport than I am once I pull the plane out of the hangar.
Title: Re: HOLY $#@!$....another small plane crash!
Post by: Wolfala on August 14, 2012, 11:34:27 PM
About #3, lots of comments already on skydivers forums.


Looks like the Beech 18 looks really cool but isn't best suited for skydiving: relatively low powered, low tail (risk of a jumper hitting the tail), elevator in the burble when skydivers are hanging at the door, CG out-of-limits if too much skydivers at the door during jumprun.

Apparently, jumpers wanted to make a big way (group) exit (12 jumpers) and discussed with the pilot who said it was ok but he would have to fly the jumprun faster to avoid stalling (old time jumpers are saying that they never jumped groups bigger than 9 back in the day when Beech 18 was regularly used as jump plane, and in those case the remaining jumpers were cramming themselves as far forward as possible to keep the CG manageable).

Pilot took off downwind (12-14mph wind) with full fuel load and full jumper load, barely clearing the trees. This did not contribute to the accident but maybe points to some lack of judgement on the pilot's part.

Did the pilot forget about the pre-takeoff briefing? Anyway, he slowed down a lot for the jumprun with the flaps up. Stall while jumpers were positioning themselves at the dorr, violent wing drop, plane got inverted and dove straight to the ground. All jumpers managed to escape, last one above 6,000 ft. Videos from the Go-Pros that some jumpers were wearing are said to be chilling, though (probably seized as evidence).

Pilot wasn't able to recover obviously and couldn't bail out. Blue Skies to him and condolences to the family.



The twin-Beech had any number of qualities to make pilots hate it. Not only was it a disagreeable handful in the air with one engine failed at gross weight, but it also enjoyed a well-deserved reputation for its take-your-eyes-off-me-and-I'll-make-you-pay-for-it ground handling. Pilot comforts were minimal; the twin-Beech was hot in the summer and cold in the winter. I've never heard anyone say anything really nice about the twin-Beech, unless “they sure built a lot of the whoopee things” qualifi es as a compliment.