Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Debrody on August 20, 2012, 01:24:24 PM
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Im curious about your opinions, about the historical matchups.
109E vs Spit1
109F vs Spit5
109F vs Spit9
109G2 vs Spit9
109G14 vs Spit8
109K4 vs Spit14
and the bonus, Franz vs Spixteen : )
Thanks in advance.
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If you are asking which plane is sexier, the Me's win in all match-ups.
That is all.
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I agree with that, Messa, im just curious about the players opinion about their flight performance and usability against each other, let it be 1v1 or many vs many.
Would be especially interesting to hear the Spitfire pilots thoughts.
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Not a opinion but just a
***statistical snippet***
LW 2011: ME vs Spit 'historical' encounters
109E vs Spit1 5:3
109F vs Spit5 58:43
109F vs Spit9 216:288
109G2 vs Spit9 344:373
109G14 vs Spit8 828:875
109K4 vs Spit14 249:196
***statistical snippet***
edit: 109E numbers had been swapped, fixed
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Im curious about your opinions, about the historical matchups.
109E vs Spit1
109F vs Spit5
109F vs Spit9
109G2 vs Spit9
109G14 vs Spit8
109K4 vs Spit14
and the bonus, Franz vs Spixteen : )
Thanks in advance.
Seeing as you asked about historical matchups, I will deviate from your list:
Spit I is narrowly superior to Emil
Franz is superior to Spit V
Spit IX is superior to Franz
Spit IX is superior to Gustav 2
Spit VIII is very much superior to Gustav 6
Spit XVI is superior to Gustav 14
Spit XIV is narrowly superior to Karl
The Bf109F and Spitfire Mk VIII are the high water marks for each series.
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The stats reflect well my opinion, but I would say the emil is better than the spit1 for practical reasons (carburators, cannons)
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Not a opinion but just a
***statistical snippet***
LW 2011: ME vs Spit 'historical' encounters
109E vs Spit1 5:3
109F vs Spit5 58:43
109F vs Spit9 216:288
109G2 vs Spit9 344:373
109G14 vs Spit8 828:875
109K4 vs Spit14 249:196
***statistical snippet***
edit: 109E numbers had been swapped, fixed
Dang, looks like I have some more work to do in the 109F. ;)
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Spit I is narrowly superior to Emil
Franz is superior to Spit V
Spit IX is superior to Franz
Spit IX is superior to Gustav 2
Spit VIII is very much superior to Gustav 6
Spit XVI is superior to Gustav 14
Spit XIV is narrowly superior to Karl
I agree with this. That said, two of the matches are very good (Spit I v Emil, 109F v Spit V) and usually produce excellent fights. I haven't flown the 14 enough to judge whether it's a good match for the K4. The other fights aren't even close.
- oldman
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I agree with this. That said, two of the matches are very good (Spit I v Emil, 109F v Spit V) and usually produce excellent fights. I haven't flown the 14 enough to judge whether it's a good match for the K4. The other fights aren't even close.
- oldman
I believe the spit has the edge in a close-in dog-fight as one would have in the DA in all cases except for the k4/spit14.
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Here is my opinion:
i like turning and for me, the Spit5 vs 109F isnt even close due to the Spitfire's much better maneuverability. In the other hand, i found the Spit16 vs 109F or the K4 vs Spit14 much more entertaining as the german muscle has a bit slower stall speed but the british steel has raw turn rate advantage.
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I don't think that the stats between the Spitfire Mk XIV and Bf109K-4 are useful. As a perk plane the Spitfire Mk XIV doesn't typically have pilots who are comfortable with it and it also gets gang banged. I suspect many of those Bf109K-4 kills on Spitfire Mk XIVs happen in the context of a gang bang of the Spitfire Mk XIV. Certainly that is how I recall my last Spitfire Mk XIV vs Bf109K-4 fight happening.
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I don't think that the stats between the Spitfire Mk XIV and Bf109K-4 are useful. As a perk plane the Spitfire Mk XIV doesn't typically have pilots who are comfortable with it and it also gets gang banged.
As a perk plane, it also has a drastically reduced share of 2 weekers ;) The chance of running into someone with some beasic experience (or even dedicated to it) is much higher.
And it doesn't get more or less gang banged than any other Spit. It's just another Spit in icon beyond 800 anyway, and you never hear ppl screamin "it's a 14! it's a 14!" like they do when the Typhoon is turning out to be a Tempest ...
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As a perk plane, it also has a drastically reduced share of 2 weekers ;) The chance of running into someone with some beasic experience (or even dedicated to it) is much higher.
And it doesn't get more or less gang banged than any other Spit. It's just another Spit in icon beyond 800 anyway, and you never hear ppl screamin "it's a 14! it's a 14!" like they do when the Typhoon is turning out to be a Tempest ...
Aren't Tempests about five to ten times as common a sight in the MA as compared to the XIV?
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Noobs chose the 14 often not realizing what they have done.
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Not a opinion but just a
***statistical snippet***
LW 2011: ME vs Spit 'historical' encounters
109E vs Spit1 5:3
109F vs Spit5 58:43
109F vs Spit9 216:288
109G2 vs Spit9 344:373
109G14 vs Spit8 828:875
109K4 vs Spit14 249:196
Interesting stats, I'm surprised by the Spit5 vs F, because 1 on 1 the spit has the F by the Tojo.
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Interesting stats, I'm surprised by the Spit5 vs F, because 1 on 1 the spit has the F by the Tojo.
I think they are very close:
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=spit9&p2=109f4
Top speed, climb rate & acceleration are almost identical, Spit has a slight edge in no flaps turning radius, at full flaps both are about the same again.
Spit has better views, and (for most players) the better guns. I do very much prefer the 109 armament though.
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Spit V, not Spit IX, vs Bf109F-4, Lusche.
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ooops
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=spit5&p2=109f4
In that case, f4 has speed & climb vs Spit's turn radius. Pretty much balanced, I'd say. And guns wise, the V suffers from a very short clip...
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With the numbers for the K4 v 14 matchup pilot choice is a big issue. Many of the ubber German sticks go with the tater queen, K4 so if you run into one you stand a decent chance of being introduced to Fester et al.
On the other hand, ubber Spit drivers don't seem to spend time holding onto that monster 14 engine. They seem to go in the Spit 8 or the Spit 5. At least that is what I've noticed.
While the K4 v 14 matches up by manufacturing and designer date, they don't match by skilled pilot choice. What about finding comparisons between the K4 v 5 and K4 v 8? Also, it seems more ubber German sticks choose the G2 over the G6. Not sure but it seems a pattern. Any chance of pulling out the rides for those ranked below 250? 50?
Boo
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Without Debrody flying the stats for the 109G6 are at a severe disadvantage :old:
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With the numbers for the K4 v 14 matchup pilot choice is a big issue. Many of the ubber German sticks go with the tater queen, K4 so if you run into one you stand a decent chance of being introduced to Fester et al.
On the other hand, ubber Spit drivers don't seem to spend time holding onto that monster 14 engine. They seem to go in the Spit 8 or the Spit 5. At least that is what I've noticed.
While the K4 v 14 matches up by manufacturing and designer date, they don't match by skilled pilot choice. What about finding comparisons between the K4 v 5 and K4 v 8? Also, it seems more ubber German sticks choose the G2 over the G6. Not sure but it seems a pattern. Any chance of pulling out the rides for those ranked below 250? 50?
Boo
I don't know of any 'uber' sticks in a k4.... they only fly spits....
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I don't know of any 'uber' sticks in a k4.... they only fly spits....
Doesn't the Gastropod fly the K4? Grizz did all the time. Many of the TopGun sticks (though I understand Dr Bone smells bad when he's drunk - apparently his girlfriend is both hot and very intelligent.) At least a few of these freakish types. No, for the Spit crowd you have to own Midway! :x
Boo
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nvm.
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In that case, f4 has speed & climb vs Spit's turn radius. Pretty much balanced, I'd say. And guns wise, the V suffers from a very short clip...
Yup.
- oldman
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Doesn't the Gastropod fly the K4? Grizz did all the time. Many of the TopGun sticks (though I understand Dr Bone smells bad when he's drunk - apparently his girlfriend is both hot and very intelligent.) At least a few of these freakish types. No, for the Spit crowd you have to own Midway! :x
Boo
Yeah, I have heard of grizz, never met him, and I usually deal with Gastropods with salt or Ortho(tm), and putting top gun and ueber in the same sentence is an insult to ueber and the German language it was derived from.... but Midway... why dis jabber jaws, isn't he your fph?
Well being an avid spit 16 pilot, and the fact that all can be easily shot down by one, in itself makes it and the people who fly them the best... Why else would we want 150 octane fuel?
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In R/L the Spit and 109 were all but interchangeable. Only a very few expert pilots would, or indeed could, fly their fighters to the edge of the envelope like we do in AH, and it's only there... right at the edge, that the differences are pronounced. Of course we do it, but only because we don't really die when we screw up.
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Of course we do it, but only because we don't really die when we screw up.
Every time I get shot down by acks I die a little inside.
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In R/L the Spit and 109 were all but interchangeable. Only a very few expert pilots would, or indeed could, fly their fighters to the edge of the envelope like we do in AH, and it's only there... right at the edge, that the differences are pronounced. Of course we do it, but only because we don't really die when we screw up.
Very true, I go off line to fly planes until they fail and I get killed but I am back in the tower and up in another plane minutes later. As for the Spit 14 I find it almost imposable to get it out of a flat spin and it has some very bad habits it high speed turn. For me I think Spit 8 and 16 is by far the better of the three planes even if I am not really a Spitfire flyer. The 109F-4 and G-2 are my favorite 109s and in EW the F model ruled over the Spit 5 in good hands. My hands were not in the number lol. I think the three prettiest planes of WWII were the 109s Spitfires and the P-51.
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Every time I get shot down by acks I die a little inside.
Puffy ack kill kittens too... :(
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Honestly im still waiting for those who used to say that spits are inferior to the 109 ;)
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Honestly im still waiting for those who used to say that spits are inferior to the 109 ;)
In some spects they are. It has a reason I fly the K4 and not the Spit 16, and it's not because I want to have a bigger challenge...
(And I don't care for that alleged 'stigma' either)
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I took a Spit VIII up last night, my preferred Spitfire. The thing that is annoying is how slow it is. Everything just walked away from me. Ended up chasing an F4U which headed for his local Wirbelwind battery, took an oil hit and bought it while trying to land at a friendly GV base. I think I got credit for the F4U due to damage done, but honestly, I didn't kill him, just removed his right side wonder flap.
Speed has become such a dominate factor in the game it is painful to use anything slower than 350, or better yet, 360 on the deck.
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Haha tell me about it, my plane cant go faster than 336 on the deck :)
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Haha tell me about it, my plane cant go faster than 336 on the deck :)
debrody doesn't fly 109s either... he too only flys spits....
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I don't have much experience in it but I find the 109F to be very competent against the 5 and 9 spit ... I personally find it can hang better and longer and can float and recover at stall well.... I enjoy the spit 5...think it is a fun plane which I used to use as a capped field fighter or if there were too many zero's about but I now take the 109 up in the capped field situation .... only real weakness compared to the spit for me is the fire power....
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Exactly, Tongs, the Franz can keep up with the Spit8 and 9 in the scissoring dogfights, handles more steady in the post-stall moves and isnt slower at low-medium altitudes. Basically, when i could force the opponent to scissor, i had chance even against the better pilots too, but when i had to let them use the raw turn rate, i was dead in a short time.
In the other hand, it was different against the spit5. There was a guy in the Few who flew nothing but Spit5s (sorry i cant remember to his name) and we often ran into each other. Some excellent fights happened but he almost always won. True, i have no patience to energy-fight and use Franz's advantages.
What do you, Sirs, think about the Spit16 vs 109F? Seriously, where are you, Bruv? Im curious :)
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Honestly im still waiting for those who used to say that spits are inferior to the 109 ;)
When I fly the 109F, I specifically do so to hunt down Spitfires... Especially trash talking spit drivers...
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When I fly the 109F, I specifically do so to hunt down Spitfires... Especially trash talking spit drivers...
I don't always fly a 109 but when I do I fly the 109F.
sorry I had to do it... it was too tempting...
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I don't always fly a 109 but when I do I fly the 109F.
sorry I had to do it... it was too tempting...
The F does give many spit drivers who can't do more than basic ACM fits.
In other news, how long has the SpitV in the MAs had this awesome black skin? Even I think it's actually a good looking spit. :devil
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The F does give many spit drivers who can't do more than basic ACM fits.
In other news, how long has the SpitV in the MAs had this awesome black skin? Even I think it's actually a good looking spit. :devil
:rofl
just discovered that myself a few days ago...awesome looking bird :O
although I think it is blue, just so dark it looks Black....ether way it is by far the coolest lookin spit :rock
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Honestly im still waiting for those who used to say that spits are inferior to the 109 ;)
Spits are inferior, the Emil and Freidrich kick their butts :D
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:noid
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If you are asking which plane is sexier, the Me's win in all match-ups.
That is all.
:huh Sexier????
(http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu108/metallldan/Spitfire-1.jpg)
Spitfire is the sexiest aircraft ever built, the definitive example of form and function, like a Ducati 916
(http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu108/metallldan/ducati.jpg)
or an Aston Martin Vanquish
(http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu108/metallldan/vanquish.jpg)
:old:
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Spitfire is the sexiest aircraft ever built...
Fight!! :lol
Aircrafts cars and bikes arent sexy. Girls are. :old:
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I took a Spit VIII up last night, my preferred Spitfire. The thing that is annoying is how slow it is. Everything just walked away from me.
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Speed has become such a dominate factor in the game it is painful to use anything slower than 350, or better yet, 360 on the deck.
I fought a SpitVIII in a P47M that I took out to see what it can do. I was able to handle the spit in a knife fight using the array of jug tricks, but every time I got the advantage, the spit would just nose up and disappear into the great blue yonder. I exaggerate of course, but its climb advantage is so large that it could easily out spiral me upwards. The Spit driver was much better at this than in a close quarters fight.
Against planes like the P47, that barely break 3000 fpm in a WEP climb the Spit VIII/XVI will quickly get the E advantage - no matter how much I drain his E, no matter if it throttles back to stay with me, all it needed to do is open up and soar at ~1500 fpm more than my best climb rate. If I am out of WEP, the climb advantage becomes ludicrous. On top, the spit climbs at low speeds which means it can do a very tight climbing spiral and/or climb at a steeper angle than most planes, including the 109s.
Speed was always a factor. The problem is that as AH advanced in versions, more and more common rides reach the 350~ish deck speed. Namely the Spit16 and F4U's. Therefore, it order to be faster than the typical planes you will have around you, the bar has been raised. I was very excited when I returned to AH to try the updated Mossie with its 353 mph (WEP) deck speed. In practice, I feel slower than ever. Without the 5 minutes WEP (MIL power) the new MossieVI does only 313 mph - yes, slower than Spit8 on MIL, and have a speed curve almost identical to the N1K...
<side track warning>
If someone can explain the remarkable 40 mph difference in deck speed between WEP and MIL for the MossieVI I would be glad to hear it. I mean, did it use WEP or an afterburner? the 353 is correct for the Merlin25, +18 boost, no flame dumper, ejectors MosquitoVI. Not sure that the 313 for MIL power is too.
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Yea Bozon, thats the tactic against the runners who "extend" for 20 miles then come back with alt :)
Bit i guess Karnak already knows that tactic. The only problem with it is, if the enemy in the runny ride dont wanna get killed, he wont be killed.
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The SpitV pilot is FlyOver, long time we didn't see him :cry
The spit16 broke the speed game in aces high, it's too fast to be this manoeuvrable :old:
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Speed was always a factor. The problem is that as AH advanced in versions, more and more common rides reach the 350~ish deck speed. Namely the Spit16 and F4U's. Therefore, it order to be faster than the typical planes you will have around you, the bar has been raised.
To be fair most fast planes had been added to AH long before 2005 (when I joined). Since then, we got only two reasonably fast fighters (47M and F4U1A). All others that had been introduced in the past 7 years are fairly slow.
But of course that doesn't say they are being used. Therefore I did a silly thing and tried to determine something like an "average fighter top speed". I took USAGE (K+D) and max speed on deck and came up with an average fighter max speed of 342mph in 2005 and 346mph in 2011.
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Here is my opinion:
i like turning and for me, the Spit5 vs 109F isnt even close due to the Spitfire's much better maneuverability.
pervert and I tried this match up and if I didn't bring him down within the first few merges, the 109F has a much better engine and can get on top and stay on top in climbing circles.
109E vs Spit1 Spit should win as long as he doesn't stall out badly or do excessive negative G manoeuvres losing energy in the process
109F vs Spit5 109F can win if he flies smart and uses sustained turns over yank and bank
109F vs Spit9 Spit 9 all the way haven't found a 109F pilot that would win in a straight out fight.
109G2 vs Spit9 Spit 9.
109G14 vs Spit8 Spit 8, the earlier 109 models stand a better chance of exploiting any mistakes.
109K4 vs Spit14 K4 all the way, Spit 14's handling slow is dodgy. The 16, 8 and 9 would all lick a 109k4 if he stood and turn fought.
Hopper and Jo have thrown various 109's around to really make my Spitty work 100% to beat them but the 109 vs spit fight is much closer than some luft cry babies would make out as long as they fly with aggression, purpose and stick time.
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Im not (a) pervert and wont energy-fight or circle jerk in an 1v1 cause i think thats homie.
Also, i would try an F against your Spit9 if i can make it back once. Nothing to lose.
Anyway, dont be butt-hurt about the luftweenies. The Gustav is definiately the harder way compared to the spit8/9/16. ;)
Edit: the spit14 is very close to the K4 in almost every aspect, i cant see why it is perked when the K4 is at Eny20.
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Im not (a) pervert and wont energy-fight or circle jerk in an 1v1 cause i think thats homie.
:headscratch: what do you do then that meets your ethic standards?
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:headscratch: what do you do then that meets your ethic standards?
Trying to beat You in Your game, fighting your aircraft's fight. Or trying to outscissor You and shoot your butt after a good old fashioned tailwhip :aok
I consider that as skill, unlike pulling the stick back and waiting for my plane to win the fight for me.
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last time I checked, getting the max out of an aeroplane in a flat turn contest required skill, it's much harder than just pulling the stick. On the other hand scissors are quite easy, just be the closest to the center of the scissors and you win. Its just a no throttle contest.
To each his own, but the best can do it all. Unlike me.
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I dont really know what are you talking about, but for me scissors are a lot more exciting than the flat turn. Maybe because my aircraft sux in the flat turn and is a semi-decent performer in the scissors. Or maybe because the ones who spent their time with teaching me forgot to show me how awesome the continous circling can be. Just dkking, dont take it serious : )
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I took a Spit XIV out last night. It is definitely a Spitfire better suited to the MA than the others. Scratched one P-47D-40 and one P-51D, neither of which had a real chance against it. Was nice to be able to keep up. That said, the enemy didn't have any agile fighters with it.
About the spiraling up 1) if the guy keeps doing that beyond the altitude needed to rotated and dive on you he is being timid just like a "run for a sector "BnZing" P-51D" and 2) if the pilot had been your equal the Spit VIII would just crush a P-47N in a knife fight.
_____
Off topic, if you're airframe is clean (no bomb, rocket or droptank shackles) the Mossie will do 320 MIL and 357 WEP on the deck. A number of fighters seem to have mega-boost from WEP. The Bf109G-14, Mosquito Mk VI, P-47N, P-47M and Spitfire Mk XIV are all very good when WEP is available and mediocre when it is not. Specifically to the Mosquito, I am not sure which MIL numbers HTC used. The Mosquito Mk VI used Merlin 21s, 23s and 25s depending on the individual aircraft and I suppose it is possible we have MIL from Merlin 21s or 23s while having WEP from Merlin 25s.
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pervert and I tried this match up and if I didn't bring him down within the first few merges, the 109F has a much better engine and can get on top and stay on top in climbing circles.
109E vs Spit1 Spit should win as long as he doesn't stall out badly or do excessive negative G manoeuvres losing energy in the process
109F vs Spit5 109F can win if he flies smart and uses sustained turns over yank and bank
109F vs Spit9 Spit 9 all the way haven't found a 109F pilot that would win in a straight out fight.
109G2 vs Spit9 Spit 9.
109G14 vs Spit8 Spit 8, the earlier 109 models stand a better chance of exploiting any mistakes.
109K4 vs Spit14 K4 all the way, Spit 14's handling slow is dodgy. The 16, 8 and 9 would all lick a 109k4 if he stood and turn fought.
Hopper and Jo have thrown various 109's around to really make my Spitty work 100% to beat them but the 109 vs spit fight is much closer than some luft cry babies would make out as long as they fly with aggression, purpose and stick time.
I have...He knows who he is. :uhoh
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I have...He knows who he is. :uhoh
I'd like to meet this person. Sounds like it'd be one great fight. :)
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Hopper and Jo have thrown various 109's around to really make my Spitty work 100% to beat them but the 109 vs spit fight is much closer than some luft cry babies would make out as long as they fly with aggression, purpose and stick time.
I remember a while back throwing my 109k4 against you and yarbles in the MA early in the morning(my time). It was fun but yes, in a turn fight, it was hopeless...
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I'd like to meet this person. Sounds like it'd be one great fight. :)
You gave me nightmares! :huh
:D
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109F vs Spit9 Spit 9 all the way haven't found a 109F pilot that would win in a straight out fight.
I'm sure I have, but I can't remember ever losing a 1-on-1 in the F to a IX.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=2&p2=13&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=2&p2=13&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
Also, the F out turns the IX.
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pervert and I tried this match up and if I didn't bring him down within the first few merges, the 109F has a much better engine and can get on top and stay on top in climbing circles.
109E vs Spit1 Spit should win as long as he doesn't stall out badly or do excessive negative G manoeuvres losing energy in the process
109F vs Spit5 109F can win if he flies smart and uses sustained turns over yank and bank
109F vs Spit9 Spit 9 all the way haven't found a 109F pilot that would win in a straight out fight.
109G2 vs Spit9 Spit 9.
109G14 vs Spit8 Spit 8, the earlier 109 models stand a better chance of exploiting any mistakes.
109K4 vs Spit14 K4 all the way, Spit 14's handling slow is dodgy. The 16, 8 and 9 would all lick a 109k4 if he stood and turn fought.
Hopper and Jo have thrown various 109's around to really make my Spitty work 100% to beat them but the 109 vs spit fight is much closer than some luft cry babies would make out as long as they fly with aggression, purpose and stick time.
I find the Spit V more of a challenge than the Spit IX or Spit VIII. Primarily because my goal is to drag the fight into the vertical against the Spit V and force a turning contest with the Spit IX and Spit VIII. There's certain characteristics of the 109F that can be exploited against the later Spitfires.
As to the Spitfire XIV, it's not a stall fighter by Spitfire standards. I, along with a very capable and well know player, flew a series of duels, Tempest vs Spit XIV. No matter who flew the Spit, the fight invariably ended up with a 50-50 split of wins vs losses. Primarily due the Tempest having more useful flaps at very low speeds (progressive settings vs all up or all down). The Tempest's 4 cannon also gave it an advantage in a snap shot.
When the 109 flight model was updated several years ago, I flew two hours of duels with one of our Finn pilots. I used the 109F exclusively, he flew many different fighters, from Zeros on up. Ultimately, the 109F won every fight. Why? Because the other fighter had at least one weakness that the 109F could exploit. Now, the 109F has one weakness that can be overcome if you know what to do, and those who don't fly it often will not know about it. In fact, most who fly the 109F never push it hard enough to discover this weakness. It's there and can get you clobbered if you don't know how to avoid it.
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Manual trim is a 109 pilot's best friend...
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Fight!! :lol
Aircrafts cars and bikes arent sexy. Girls are. :old:
There are plenty of aircraft, cars and bikes that are sexier than some girls.
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True, but my eyes are selective ;)
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There are plenty of aircraft, cars and bikes that are sexier than some girls.
I told you to stop trying to pick up women at Rochesters Big-And-Tall :D
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Or maybe because the ones who spent their time with teaching me forgot to show me how awesome the continous circling can be.
I tried showing you once but you threw a childish tantrum and kept jumping out of your plane, then logged :rofl
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Varietas delectat, Pervert.
And i get bored quickly by the continously repeating stuff ;)
Im just that kind of person. Sorry. I give you my word that will never happen again, if you know what i mean.
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I'm sure I have, but I can't remember ever losing a 1-on-1 in the F to a IX.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=2&p2=13&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=2&p2=13&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
Also, the F out turns the IX.
the charts only tell you so much. Next time you see me online, I'd love to witness the 109F's abilities first hand! :salute
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The 109F does great against the Spit9.. MickyD knows what I'm talking about.
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The 109F does great against the Spit9.. MickyD knows what I'm talking about.
Its more like Krup does great against everyone. Micky is about at my level and i dont have much chance against you.
The Spit has a major raw turn rate advantage while the 109 handles a bit better in the post-stall moves. Its more like who can force his game to the other one.
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The 109F does great against the Spit9.. MickyD knows what I'm talking about.
Where you in the spit stalling out all over?
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Where you in the spit stalling out all over?
I was at first Spit9 vs Spit9... Micky was pwning me so I took a 109F and I was able to give him a challenge.
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had the same discussion with m00t years ago he said exactly the same thing.
Now those fights were closer than I thought they were going to be but guess what the SPIT9 still won ;)
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But of course that doesn't say they are being used. Therefore I did a silly thing and tried to determine something like an "average fighter top speed". I took USAGE (K+D) and max speed on deck and came up with an average fighter max speed of 342mph in 2005 and 346mph in 2011.
That is a cool factoid, thanks!
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had the same discussion with m00t years ago he said exactly the same thing.
Now those fights were closer than I thought they were going to be but guess what the SPIT9 still won ;)
I'm guessing skill also played a part ;)
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That is a cool factoid, thanks!
factoid.... I like that :)
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the charts only tell you so much. Next time you see me online, I'd love to witness the 109F's abilities first hand! :salute
You gents are on Euro time and far more likely to be online at the same hour. That said, I'd love to duel 109F vs Spit9. Would be a great deal of fun...
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I dont think the spit9 owns a g2 in any way shape or form, besides the obvious horizontal turning
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I dont think the spit9 owns a g2 in any way shape or form, besides the obvious horizontal turning
Visibility and firepower as well. Not sure about roll rate.
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In a 109F model that spit that has me sweating the most is the spit9. The 9 has the power to climb and turn with a 109F and can keep in side the turn. The spit8 is to heavy and with the 16 being clipped winged it's fairly easy to get them to slow for them to handle.
G2 vs Spit8: is a 50/50 draw IMO. Very close planes.
G14 vs spit8: spit8 unless g14 and pull very quickly and land some good shots on the spit, otherwise it's toast.
K4 vs spit8/16: These are close battles the k4 has alot power power over these and should use a right-hand spiral climb to get the spits to slow and have the 109 chop throttle and slide in for a high angle shot. In a dogfight the spit will win majority, but if the k4 is behind someone good they can twist the k4 very fast for a shot.
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In a 109F model that spit that has me sweating the most is the spit9. The 9 has the power to climb and turn with a 109F and can keep in side the turn. The spit8 is to heavy and with the 16 being clipped winged it's fairly easy to get them to slow for them to handle.
G2 vs Spit8: is a 50/50 draw IMO. Very close planes.
G14 vs spit8: spit8 unless g14 and pull very quickly and land some good shots on the spit, otherwise it's toast.
K4 vs spit8/16: These are close battles the k4 has alot power power over these and should use a right-hand spiral climb to get the spits to slow and have the 109 chop throttle and slide in for a high angle shot. In a dogfight the spit will win majority, but if the k4 is behind someone good they can twist the k4 very fast for a shot.
Aha, there's my problem, I was using left handed spiral climbs against spits in a K4
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Visibility and firepower as well. Not sure about roll rate.
It's not hard to keep sight on anyone in a 109. If you have your views set up right. Firepower is a moot point, half a second burst of even a single 20mm into a Spit tears it apart.
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It's not hard to keep sight on anyone in a 109. If you have your views set up right. Firepower is a moot point, half a second burst of even a single 20mm into a Spit tears it apart.
I wasn't aware that the only targets in AH were Spitfires.
You can keep anything in view of anything in AH, some are just easier than in others. The Spitfire Mk IX is easier than the bf109G-2, even with optimal view settings on the Bf109.
I stand by my points.
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I wasn't aware that the only targets in AH were Spitfires.
You can keep anything in view of anything in AH, some are just easier than in others. The Spitfire Mk IX is easier than the bf109G-2, even with optimal view settings on the Bf109.
I stand by my points.
I wasn't aware we were discussing something else in a 109 vs Spitfire thread.
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I wasn't aware we were discussing something else in a 109 vs Spitfire thread.
(http://rob.nu/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/73189-Misc-OhSnap_Bear.jpg)
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I wasn't aware we were discussing something else in a 109 vs Spitfire thread.
Firepower still counts and more is better. No matter how you try to lie the fact remains that the Spitfire Mk IX has more firepower and better visibility out of the cockpit.
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And one MG151/20 is still plenty to kill a Spitfire in a half second burst. No matter how you try to lie the fact. :angel:
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Titan, dont plant false illusions.
In a 109, you have to hold your bullet stream on the Spitfire, one crossing snapshot with one 151/20 wont kill it, unless you get lucky and hit the pilot on the head. Ergo, you (or me, as talking from experience) have to create 2-3 good snapshots in most of the cases. Thats very difficult since the Spit turns, accelerates, rolls much better than a G6, and still quite a bit better than the F4. Against a more or less equal pilot, it was next to inpossible for me.
Of course, if you have energy on the Spit, even more, he ropes himself up right to your guns, one 20mm cannon is more than enough to kill an aircraft. But 2 of them are twice better ;)
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And one MG151/20 is still plenty to kill a Spitfire in a half second burst. No matter how you try to lie the fact. :angel:
I am not claiming otherwise. I am stating the fact that the Spitfire Mk IX has more firepower. More than twice as much. The Spitfire Mk IX does not need even that half second to kill the Bf109G-2.
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I am not claiming otherwise. I am stating the fact that the Spitfire Mk IX has more firepower. More than twice as much. The Spitfire Mk IX does not need even that half second to kill the Bf109G-2.
Since the spit guns are wing mounted I find that they do not give twice the insta-killing power as much as twice the chance to hit something critical with one gun. In a knife fight, as opposed to BnZ, the bandit is often closer than the convergence range. Hence, I tend to hit different parts of the plane with each gun, or hit with one and completely miss with the other. It still means that two guns are better than one, but are not the same as one gun with twice the power.
For a poor shot like myself whose aiming method is to fill the front view with the enemy plane, close my eyes and pull the trigger, the scatter-gun effect of wing mounted guns can offer an additional advantage. The single Hispano still hits harder than a single MG151/20, or so it seems.
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The single Hispano still hits harder than a single MG151/20, or so it seems.
It does by a fair margin if building damage values mean anything.
The only 20mm cannon close to the Hispano on damage per hit is the Type 99 Model II carried by the N1K2-J and A6M5b, but that cannon has a much lower rate of fire and lower muzzle velocity.
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How much damage does each gun do against buildings then?
The Hispano II needs to be at least 20% more powerful per round to make up for the MG151/20's higher ROF. For every 10 Hisso rounds the MG spits out 12.
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I am at work and don't have the exact numbers, but I recall something like 3.4lbs for the MG151/20 and 4.1lbs for the Hispano Mk II.
Also, shooting airplanes isn't the same as shooting buildings. You can't simply says "x damage per second" as you are very unlikely to get solid hits for that long.
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20mm Hispano Mk II 4.03
20mm MG 151/20 3.55
So while the Hispano II does 13.5% more damage per round the MG 151/20 actually does more damage per burst.
Hisso one second burst (10 rounds): 40.3 lb
Mg 151 one second burst (12 rounds): 42.6 lb
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20mm Hispano Mk II 4.03
20mm MG 151/20 3.55
So while the Hispano II does 13.5% more damage per round the MG 151/20 actually does more damage per burst.
Hisso one second burst (10 rounds): 40.3 lb
Mg 151 one second burst (12 rounds): 42.6 lb
Factor in that the Hispano's damage is more concentrated and that unless you're shooting bombers you're unlikely to get a full 1 second burst with all rounds hitting. Also ballistics due to muzzle velocity.
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Half second burst Hisso/MG: 20.15 (5 rnd) / 21.3 (6 rnd)
Quarter second burst Hisso/MG: 8.06 (2 rnd) / 10.65 (3 rnd)
1/6 second burst Hisso/MG: 4.03 (1 rnd) / 7.1 (2 rnd)
With less than 1/6 second both guns only get off one round, and then the Hispano II does 13.5% more damage.
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Not worried about that so much as individual hits and damage concentration.
The Bf109G-2 or Spitfire Mk IX get a crossing shot on the other they are likely to only hit with one round, maybe two for the Spitfire due to two cannons.
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Not in my experience, but YMMV I guess. You're right in that the Spit with two cannons has a much better snapshot than the 109, but that's not what I was arguing.
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How much damage does each gun do against buildings then?
The Hispano II needs to be at least 20% more powerful per round to make up for the MG151/20's higher ROF. For every 10 Hisso rounds the MG spits out 12.
Who's flying either one against buildings? Air to air I'd put my money on the Hispano's ballistics regardless of "damage per burst".
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Damage, what damage? And against what? AP or HE? It makes a big difference depending on the range. Hisso retains its kinetic i.e. AP damage better on long range but the chemical energy of 151/20 stays nearly constant with range.
IRL the difference in ballistics was not as marked as in AH so I'd choose 151/20 with MG ammo over Hisso if I'd be to shoot down other planes. But I agree that in this case two Hispanos are better than one 151/20.
And do not make a mistake thinking that a long barrel makes a gun more accurate or reduces dispersion as it is likely to work the other way in rapid fire aircraft application. Longer barrel makes it possible to use slower powder as a driver which is better for the breech but in turn it needs a longer barrel to burn it all effectively to give a good muzzle velocity.
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IRL the difference in ballistics was not as marked
I'd love to see proof of that.
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Damage, what damage? And against what? AP or HE? It makes a big difference depending on the range. Hisso retains its kinetic i.e. AP damage better on long range but the chemical energy of 151/20 stays nearly constant with range.
IRL the difference in ballistics was not as marked as in AH so I'd choose 151/20 with MG ammo over Hisso if I'd be to shoot down other planes. But I agree that in this case two Hispanos are better than one 151/20.
And do not make a mistake thinking that a long barrel makes a gun more accurate or reduces dispersion as it is likely to work the other way in rapid fire aircraft application. Longer barrel makes it possible to use slower powder as a driver which is better for the breech but in turn it needs a longer barrel to burn it all effectively to give a good muzzle velocity.
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The difference is accurate here, yet I would still choose the MG151.20 over the Hispano in RL. Put MG151/20s in place of the Hispanos on the Spitfire and you get a more maneuverable Spitfire with more firing time. The Hispano's greater ability for long range shots is insignificant in comparison. Such shots were extremely rare and hard to make.
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Tony Williams mentions Hispano MK.II's rate if fire as 600rpm. In AH, it's 650rpm per my testing.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm)
Wikipedia talks about 600-700rpm.
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Unless it has been changed the Hisso has a cyclic rate of 600 rpm. Pyro stated this on the bbs several years ago.
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I timed using multiplier 6 for the ammo. It takes a hispano ~66.3 secs in game to spit out 720 rounds. That's 651.58 rounds per minute and considering my reaction time and using a cell phone timer I'm quite sure it is set to 650rpm.
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"I'd love to see proof of that."
As Karnak said at typical engagement ranges the difference was negligible.
As a further confirmation that MG151 had the more desirable concept is the excellent Hisso V which was a more compact weapon and better than MG151 in some respects, e.g. if we leave out the better "chemical effect range" of MG151 which was never pursued by the Hisso team during the war, even if the examples of German MG ammo were available. But then again the Brits never needed to shoot down heavy bombers so they were not in acute need of it.
If you think about the lead shooting and think how much less lead angle you would need if the muzzle velocity was slightly higher and consider the trade off in ammunition weight and gun weight to get that, there is certainly a sweet spot where these matters, including aircraft speeds and theoretical accuracy i.e. ability to instictively shoot at correct lead, cross. I'd say MG151 and MK108 were pretty near the sweet spot, as is evident by the immediate post war development of DEFA and ADEN cannons where compactness, caliber and ROF were considered more important than MV. As the speeds increased further in jet age the MV came important again, but that is another story.
Does that sound like proof?
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If the Hispano was a far better gun, any reason the german's didn't steal it from the french or british early in the war? After all they had to develope the mg151 fron scratch.
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If the Hispano was a far better gun, any reason the german's didn't steal it from the french or british early in the war? After all they had to develope the mg151 fron scratch.
It wasn't a far better gun. That is what Charge and I are both saying. We'd take MG151/20s over the Hispano in real life.
The Hispano has a higher muzzle velocity and superior AP performance. In all other ways it is inferior. The MG151/20 has a higher rate of fire, better shells, smaller shells for more ammo in a given space, was more reliable and it weighs less.
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It wasn't a far better gun. That is what Charge and I are both saying. We'd take MG151/20s over the Hispano in real life.
The Hispano has a higher muzzle velocity and superior AP performance. In all other ways it is inferior. The MG151/20 has a higher rate of fire, better shells, smaller shells for more ammo in a given space, was more reliable and it weighs less.
Ahhh ok sorry, I got lost twice in the article and simply couldn't figure out what was being argued lol I found it a bit surprising... I was trying to read a bit on german munitions and see if they ever took hispanos for testing, its always interesting to read jsut why they used MG151s or MK108s for example.
After seeing the Mk103, I only dream of having 109K4 with it.
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Ahhh ok sorry, I got lost twice in the article and simply couldn't figure out what was being argued lol I found it a bit surprising... I was trying to read a bit on german munitions and see if they ever took hispanos for testing, its always interesting to read jsut why they used MG151s or MK108s for example.
After seeing the Mk103, I only dream of having 109K4 with it.
The Mk103 was too large for the 109 iirc.
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Fight!! :lol
Aircrafts cars and bikes arent sexy. Girls are. :old:
Honestly, I've driven a couple of each of them around a block. In the end, only one of those doesn't get you any resale/turn-in vale when you're done and tired with it. :aok
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Well, one other place the Hispano seems to have been superior is in the standard HE round. The MG151/20's Minengeschoß is significantly superior to the HE rounds of either gun, but Minengeschoß rounds were not used exclusively.
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If the MG151/20 was that much better in real life, why isn't it the same in AH? Should it make more damage per shell than the hispano?
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No, or it depends. MG151/20 has ample performance to penetrate aircraft armor on practical engagement ranges but on long range Hisso is still better. MG151 has better chemical energy on long range and thus retains better overall energy also on extreme ranges after the KE of Hisso starts to wear out, but as the damage model does not differentiate between HE and AP the overall power of Hisso is better on all ranges, which is generally correct with a simplified damage system.
Why is it simplified then? E.g. IRL AP performance is not as straightforward as it is not just about punching holes in armor and structure but more of how much of KE can be released into structure. E.g at close range an AP round may penetrate and leave a nice clean hole in surface and supporting structure and pass though the plane into blue beyond, but on longer range the AP round in similar place may tumble, change direction and tear structures much worse as it now releases all its energy upon target and do much worse damage than that fired from close range.
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Tony Williams on this board about the rate of fire of the Hispano Mk.II:
The official RoF for the Hisso II was 600 rpm and this seems to have been the actual average. Of course, as with any automatic gun this could vary a lot depending on the circumstances. I have read that even straight from the factory, the RoF could be anything between 550 and 650 rpm due to production tolerances. The quality of the maintenance the guns received also made a difference.
Considering the fact that most things on AH are modelled on the basic specs that are given by the manufacturer the rate of fire in AH should be 600rpm instead of 650rpm.
I just clocked free firing MG151/20 in game. It has a rof of 700rpm. Tony Williams' site lists 720rpm: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm)
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If the MG151/20 was that much better in real life, why isn't it the same in AH? Should it make more damage per shell than the hispano?
Other than the Minengeschoß rounds the Hispano's were better. If you had a belt of Minengeschoß then yes, but AH models an average damage and the poorer performance of the MG151/20s basic HE round hinders it. I seem to recall that in the common belting only one in five or six rounds was a Minengeschoß.
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Other than the Minengeschoß rounds the Hispano's were better. If you had a belt of Minengeschoß then yes, but AH models an average damage and the poorer performance of the MG151/20s basic HE round hinders it. I seem to recall that in the common belting only one in five or six rounds was a Minengeschoß.
Got me confused there, I thougt the Minengeschoß was the ammo for the MG/FF. I'm gessing Minengeschoß is an ammo type, derived for different guns.
In any case we have another perked ordinance possibility here :noid
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MG was available for both 20mm and 30mm guns.
MG-FF was initially only capable of firing AP and standard HE. MG-FF/M was able to fire also MG ammo as it required a minor change in the gun.
According to Schiessfibel June 1944 the standard beltings were: 3 MG - 1 Incendiary - 1 API for general use, against bombers it was: 1 MG - 1 incendiary - 1 API, and of course a wide variety of different mixes what ever the pilot fancied.
I recall that 4 MG - 1 API was also a common composition as well as MG - HE - HE - AP, but I don't recall the source.
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Minengeschoß is a "shell round" that has a much thinner metal shell and much higher HE content. As Charge notes it was available for the MG151/20 and MK108. Not sure about the MK103.
It is already factored into the MF151/20's average damage in AH. Instead of three rounds hitting for 3lbs of damage and one round for 5lbs of damage you get four rounds hitting for 3.5lbs of damage in AH.
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In the Luftwaffe ammo belt composition was the prerogative of the pilot so it could be anything really. However the recommended standard early-mid war was 2x HE(M), 2x AP(I) and 1x HE(T), so two out of five would be minengeschoss. 1944/45 the AP(I) rounds were often dropped in favor of more HE(M) or HE(I) (aka Brandgranatpatrone 44, a minengeschoss round filled with an incendiary/explosive mix and a special fuze that detonated when in contact with liquids), especially in anti-bomber units.
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If the Hispano was a far better gun, any reason the german's didn't steal it from the french or british early in the war? After all they had to develope the mg151 fron scratch.
Read, Strategy for Defeat The Luftwaffe 1933-1945 by Williamson Murray. It is a very dry read but it answers some question why the Germans did things like they did. Some of it was simply because a cretin engine or gun was all that was available to a particular manufacture base on need like the HS-129 using underpowered French engines because they had them.
Some of it was strictly political kind of like when the US Army replaced the Colt 1911 with the Beretta 92 even after it finished 6th of 8 trial weapons. Maybe that is why the Germans did not copy the Hispano. Part of the reason may be because the Luftwaffe was looking to kill four engined bombers with as few hits as possible while the Allies were only looking to kill other single engine fighters.
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Some of it was strictly political kind of like when the US Army replaced the Colt 1911 with the Beretta 92 even after it finished 6th of 8 trial weapons. Maybe that is why the Germans did not copy the Hispano. Part of the reason may be because the Luftwaffe was looking to kill four engined bombers with as few hits as possible while the Allies were only looking to kill other single engine fighters.
Getting well off topic, but in which trials did the Model 92 finish sixth of eight weapons? The M92s (in a variety of flavours) won the 1980 US Air Force tests. The US Army conducted two sets of tests in the early 1980s and everyone failed, not just the Beretta 92. It then re-tested under the XM9 designation and the Beretta won, mostly because it offered the same performance as the Sig Sauer P226, at a lower cost. Same story with the XM10 trials in 1988, despite Betetta refusing to compete in the competition and the US Army using 'off the shelf' models. These tests were really fait accompli though.
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Maybe that is why the Germans did not copy the Hispano. Part of the reason may be because the Luftwaffe was looking to kill four engined bombers with as few hits as possible while the Allies were only looking to kill other single engine fighters.
The MG 151 was designed before the war and entered production in 1940 as the 151/15 and in 1941 as the 151/20, before America entered the war, and long before Germany faced any heavy-bomber threat. The MG 151 was the natural evolution of aircraft armament in Germany and not a response to any particular allied advancement.
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The MG 151 was designed before the war and entered production in 1940 as the 151/15 and in 1941 as the 151/20, before America entered the war, and long before Germany faced any heavy-bomber threat. The MG 151 was the natural evolution of aircraft armament in Germany and not a response to any particular allied advancement.
As an aircraft weapon it is also superior to the Hispano.
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Karnak....Over 17000 posts???? OMFG!!!!!!!
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Karnak....Over 17000 posts???? OMFG!!!!!!!
But...but...I can name several people with more.
Also, I've been posting here since Dec of 1999.
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But...but...I can name several people with more.
Also, I've been posting here since Dec of 1999.
that averages to almost 4 posts a day... :)
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that averages to almost 4 posts a day... :)
3.846 per day :D
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There are plenty of aircraft, cars and bikes that are sexier than some girls.
Then you are hanging out with the wrong girls lol.
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Getting well off topic, but in which trials did the Model 92 finish sixth of eight weapons? The M92s (in a variety of flavours) won the 1980 US Air Force tests. The US Army conducted two sets of tests in the early 1980s and everyone failed, not just the Beretta 92. It then re-tested under the XM9 designation and the Beretta won, mostly because it offered the same performance as the Sig Sauer P226, at a lower cost. Same story with the XM10 trials in 1988, despite Betetta refusing to compete in the competition and the US Army using 'off the shelf' models. These tests were really fait accompli though.
I was not in the Army at the time they were looking to replace the 1911 I got out in 81. I recall reading about the mud trails where only two weapons past I think one was the Star from Spain? The big reason Beretta got the contract was they agreed to manufacture in here in the US. This is off topic and I used it as point of political decisions as the open top design of the M92 makes it a poor choice for combat conditions but the Army got it none the less.