Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zigrat on April 06, 2001, 11:00:00 PM
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what is with 5 inch ack in this game
it is not affected by manouver: jinking, changing altitudes, nothing stops its deadly accuracy
it has auto IFF at 25,000 ft
it shoots at a friendly con engaged with an enemy when theres an equal chance of killing friendly or enemy
PLEASE do 2 things for gunners
1) DISABLE AI 5 inch guns, make them player manned ONLY, keep small caliber fleet guns AI controlled
2) remove range icons for gunners, just say plane type and nationality
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Ive not been affected by this problem. Maybe it prone to certain planes. I still fight in AA over enemy CVs and have a lota damn fun doin it.
Dog out..
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I dance in ack all the time. I've lost one 51 to 88's at knight hq, and no buffs. I took a single hit in an Arado once. I was being silly and made three passes on the CV, which was jinking to avoid eggs, so I deserved it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(psst: Arados are seldom seen above 20k) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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Voss
13th TAS
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I think its the CV flak modeling is the worst part of the entire naval aspect of AH.
I would now like to post in a reasonable manner why I belive this is so, and would appreciate any reasonable feedback- no personal attacks please.
First of all it fires out very very far, often the puffs appear before one even sees the carrier.
The flak opens up at anything over 3000ft altitude, one can easily confirm this by flying over and under 3000ft alt and you will see it stop when you go under then immediately reappear as soon as you cross over 3000ft.
These two lead to well known CV tactic in AH, that is parking the fleet close off shore and laying a suppresive flak barage that limits defenders getting over 3000ft alt unless they want an immediate flak barrage.
Why is this bad? Well the people upping from the CV can then just climb as high as they want inside this curtain and have an immediate alt advantage. Any enemy fighter who comes inside the flak coverage over 3k alt will bu pummeled.
These errors are made most rediculosly obvious during a tight turning combat within flak range and over 3k alt. Flak puffs surround any enemy fighters while the guys from the CV who are dogfighting the enemy, and only feet apart take no fire. Is this a good thing, are the proximity fuses some advanced new IFF model?
Another important point:
The AI flak serves no direct defensive purpose, ie it doesnt actually shoot down planes directly targeting the fleet. Sometimes I take a P38 or bomber and divebomb attack a CV, not once have I been killed by the 5 inch AI flak, Im usually killed by the light ack guns as I get very close to the CV. I havent noticed it taking out hi level bombers much either.
Basically the current CV flak model is useless, its only purpose is to supress and harass enemy fighters over 3000ft alt, while leaving CV borne fighters immune from its fire.
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You know what? None of that bothers me. In fact, some of the best sorties I've had are under that flak curtain.
I have learned to lob eggs from a P-51, and get reasonably close to hitting the CV. Still, the dive bombing tactic is the best way, especially with a plane that dies in ack so easy as the Pony. Getting in to kill it isn't too hard, due to the altitude changes involved.
If you park your CV close to shore, then you deserve to have it killed out from under you. When the curtain is lifted fly accordingly.
The CV's offer mobile airfields, which you can use to advantage without having to brush the coast, but I see nothing wrong with suppressing an airfield with heavy shells and ack. I just wish I knew how to aim those big guns (still a mystery to me). Even that is not too interesting to me, though.
It's all part of the game, guys. Let's learn to adjust to the existing game and move on to having fun again. If, you don't like the fleet, learn to kill it or try to fly somewhere else. Not a problem, really.
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Voss
13th TAS
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voss the problem is the 5 inch ack is not realistic
it fires outside range where it can identify friend or foe. it just "appears" it is never actually fired from carrier guns. turret traverse is not takeninto account.
saying that something that isnt "right" is just part of the game is absurd
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Ah, I think I see your point. You want to see turret traverse time figured in so you can adjust to it with some tactic or another? I don't see why, but okay. It seems to me that you can defeat this with multiple aircraft. Whether there is an actual barrel pointing at you, or not, bothers you? I can see that.
I think, though, that the way it is counters for the lack of more ships. Not much, but a little. Still doesn't bother me.
I still want to see the CV tip up before it slides into the sea (as posted in Superfly's post on Images). I'm always too busy somewhere else. Anyone got film?
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Voss
13th TAS
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The only thing that I don't like about the CV ack is that it seams impossible to avoid. It stays with you no matter what you do to avoid it. The shells seem to have no travel time. They don't puff where you were going 2 seconds ago, they puff where you are right now. Climb through 3K at the extended range of the ack. The instant you hit 3k, they puff, no travel time. Pull a 4G turn in the flack, it sticks with you, like the gunner knew what you were going to do even before you did.
This is my perception of the flack.
Anyone else agree?
eskimo
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been saying all this for a long time.
I'd love to see a fleet behave like a fleet for ONCE. The CHOG waves wouldnt be a danger if they didnt have the flak smacking stuff above 3k or killing planes that come high as reinforcements from another field.
Perhaps the fleets would be kept at a good d12+ from airfields and launch their strikes.
I like the idea of having the flak be player-manned only. I think AIRFIELDS should have this too. Large airfields could have the most # of flaks, small airfields could have only 2 flak batteries (easily killed by strafing).
Then reduce the amazing 1 ping kill hispanolike field/fleet AA to have the power of a 30 cal gun and we may see some improvement.
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Wouldn't ack on crack be less accurate than a clean ack?
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I thought everyone knew crack hones one's skills.
Another victim of government propaganda?
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It is interesting that the ack is only useful as a deterent to enemy fighters that are engageing fighters. It is useless against me in my Lanc at 10k. The cv dies nearly every time. I live nearly every time.
This cannot be coincidental. We are intended to atack these things with level bombers from 10-20k. So thats what I do.
If the area arround the fleet is a flack jungle at 3k and up the area arround an airfield should be the same from 3k down.
Constant MG fire on the enemy ac at low alt.
except goons of course... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Zig, before the beginning of this tour I would have agreed with you. However, on this tour I've noticed that the fleet ack hits are not nearly as deadly and the fire seems to be launched in volleys. I've heard dozens of "pings" this tour and only taken damage once when flying over CV fleets. (The damage was a massive hole in my fuel tank but I was able to fly clear and ditch. No 5" tracers were observed.) I noticed that if I changed my flight path or altitude between the volleys of AI flak bursts, they appeared to detonate further away with less volume. In the previous Island map tours, I was rarely successful in flying through CV ack without taking critical damage and a number of those were instantaneous deaths where no manned 5" gun tracers were visible.
I watch over and over at single airplanes fly over a fleet only to initiate a kamikaze dive bomb attempt. They are rarely taken out by ack and have an amazingly high success rate at killing the CV from the attacks that I've seen. Instantly sinking such a high value asset (a loaded 35,000 ton discplacement carrier with an 876' armored deck carrying 3200 crewmen and a airwing full of planes) with a single fighter seems far more outrageous than a single fighter having little success at avoiding hits from concentrated anti-aircraft fire.
For discussion: A single nme airplane, visible on radar and visible as a high dot before coming into icon range should be targeted mercilessly by all the defensive fire that a fleet can put up. Taking away the high-alt AI ack would leave an fleet virtually defenseless from a high altitude attack when the turrets are unmanned. Depending on dedicated gun crews isn't practical since most people want to fly in this sim. I've found that the manned ack guns cannot effectively slew to defend against such an overhead attack as well. You have to have both fore and aft guns manned to have any chance of success against these attacks. To balance the lack of any AI defences when no one is manning the guns, the CV's would have to be made virtually indestructable for them to have any use at all in AH.
I guess I'm saying that flying within the defensive ring of fire around a fleet should be a very hazardous undertaking. Then again, I painted my aircraft with a big "FRIENDLY" sign on the wings so I look like a friendly airplane to everyone <G> You can borrow it Zig (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
MiG
(Edited for spelling)
[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 04-07-2001).]
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
First of all it fires out very very far, often the puffs appear before one even sees the carrier.
Grun, if you use the Zoom view, you can see the carrier before it fires on you.
MiG
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carrier AA has always been too good , I don't understand why with soo many complaints its still never been changed . I figured there must be a valid reason . Please don't take this as a personal attack , It wasn't ment to be .
signed, Paranoid poster
no doubt someone will take this personal
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There is, it seems, a GREATER chance of hitting the friendly engaged than hitting the enemy!! Happened twice to me tonight.. I didn't die instantly the first time, but my fuel was hit and I eventually exploded to an extremely painful death.
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-=///Octavius\\\=-
VMF-323 "Death Rattlers"
MAG-33
(http://ripsnort60.tripod.com/DeathRattlerslogo.gif)
Maz203@aol.com
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I have to agree with Zigrat, Eskimo and Grunz on this. Soooo many times I've been on the brunt end of a CV being parked just offshore and can't climb above 3K. Also, have had numerous instances of 5" ack following me all over the place until I get so far away or dive below 3k. I've also been killed by 1 ping at 15k feet and also had my wing blown off while at 20k, while in the clouds probably 5-8 miles away from the CV! Talk about frustrating. Anymore, I just avoid the CVs and go somewhere else. It needs to be tweaked somehow.
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Originally posted by Pongo:
We are intended to atack these things with level bombers from 10-20k. So thats what I do.
Interestingly, that's even more unrealistic than any aspect of the ack.
The number of hits scored by level bombers on maneuvering naval vessels bombing from 10K or higher in WWII could probably be counted on two hands, despite thousands of bombs dropped trying it :-)
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I read this thread and decided to see for myself what I must have been missing.
I have spent the whole day in the ack, making different approaches, dying a hundred horrible deaths. This is what I found-
I could climb relatively safely while under the ack umbrella, so long as I wasn't right on top of the fleet. I could climb to 10-12K, split-S and divebomb the fleet with an F4. So long as I didn't get too low I could usually pull out and escape. I eventually got a CV today when I worked this all out.
Now I died many, many times- to the fleet gunner named "Hector". That's right, the human got me far more than did the CV ack. I did get hit by ack and killed once, but considering I had spent 1 1/2 hours in the umbrella I thought it was more than a fair trade.
Later I took a Lanc to another enemy CV. I made 6 passes over the CV, sunk it, and only lost a flap. This I did from 20K (testing the upper limit of the suggestion).
I am not saying you guys are wrong, only saying that I haven't seen the problem as that big yet. I hate the ack, but after today it doesn't worry me near as much as it used to.
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Thats exactly what we are saying, Its useless as a CV defensive measure- planes thay directly attack CV arent killed. All CV flak does is suppress and annoy defenders who are trying to battle the CVs fighters.
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Ergo, human gunners.
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Voss
13th TAS
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S!
The CV ack seems to be in a need of some re-adjustment.And for those who claim it is radar guide(no rant intended)..gimme a break.Those radars back in 40's weren't some seen on Aegis-class destroyers today capable of seeing a fly 2inches above sea level.They were at best capable of pointing the general direction and alt,but in no way being fire control computers.And bout proximity fuses with no error IFF.Again it shows these are 100% working and combined with ridiculously accurate FCC on CV..oh well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Last thing on parking a CV near shore.Utter crap IMO.Wasn't done IRL so why here?Ppl want realism,so give them that.No CV's able to park near a field for FCC-Flak(tm) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)Sure,it can be explained by the size of the map and therefore give some "freedom" to let CV's get closer to shore(among other things I have noticed).
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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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One question bothers me:
Is ack somehow calculated on each players FE?
That is the only way I can explain the 'late joining bug' which brings autoack alive from a dead field to player who joins the game after a field is de-acked..
That would also explain the differences people are seeing in ack behaviour, I for one never ever - and I mean it - dive anywhere near an alive ack anymore. It's death on first pass 90% of the time no matter how you roll or yank the plane.
That means strat missions are a definate no-no for me.
Then there are others who manage to de-ack the whole field and think nothing of it.. There has to be something veeery wrong..
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I believe some aspect of the ack is relavent to the user's front end.
I see lots or people flying through the ack countless times without to much trouble...but it's a nightmare for me right now.
I usually make a 10k jabo dive, but presently if I don't release before 7k I am assured a plane-exploding blow.
It seems the opposite of how it should be...at the furthest ranges the ack has the highest probability of hitting me, on the other hand if I am on top of the ack strafing it, I rarely get hit, where it should be the deadliest because I generally use very little deviation from a headon pass.
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Regarding the AA umbrella from CV parked on shore, I believe it was during the Q&A session that involved the "Banning" TM.
One of the replies stated that it was their intention to have shore defences to put an end to the CV AA suppression at attacked fields.
As for the AA lethality it definitely affects some players more than others.
I used to be able to deack a field but not anymore, certain and rapid death is the usual end result, and yet i can watch others fly blindly in and deack whilst staying within the AA umbrella.
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See Rule #10
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AI puffy isn't modeled well enough to deserve inclusion in the game.
- It fires through mountains.
- It targets aircraft that are no threat to the CV while ignoring those that are.
- It is more lethal against small, fast moving fighters than slow, large bombers.
- It does not obey Newtonian physics, i.e. it "spawns" around you. It doesn't travel from point A to point B.
Remove it from the game unless it can be improved.
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8 years.... not a record
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Holy digging for antiques Batman... :O...how did you find a thread where the last post was in 2001 and why would you post a reply to it when there are newer threads about this subject?