Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on August 27, 2012, 10:37:22 AM
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:salute All,
I am coming out of a very long phase where I did not use drop tanks. I always shied away from them as the mount points dinged 5 mph off my top speed in most planes. On a lark I used a drop tank and 25% fuel with a P-40c. After I dropped the tank it felt noticeably more responsive than if I had not used a tank and arrived over the target with more fuel. In short, I was able to engage the enemy with the plane much lighter than otherwise. I duplicated these findings in about a half dozen more planes (51, 47, 109 ...).
1. After you have dropped the tank do you find the drop tank mount points noticeably detract manueverability?
2. Are there any other related findings you can share in this area?
Thanks for your comments,
Slade :salute
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I never used DTs or bombs on 109s as the rack causes an 5-7mph speed penality. The inpact on the maneuverability was as minor that i couldnt really notice it. True, sometimes it wasnt easy to turn with a full tank.
Tryed some P47s too. As the rack isnt removable, i think its a good idea to grab DTs and like 50% fuel. As far as i can remember, most (if not all) of the american planes have built-in DT mounts.
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Debrody, thanks for the comments.
Are there any planes that release the mount points with the drop tanks?
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Off the top of my head, I think the I-16 is clean after dropping tanks, and some of the spits too.
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I keep mine on till its empty not a huge performance difference really, if I sense someone is decent and really pushing me I might let go of it to try and regain an edge but its better than running out of fuel imo.
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Debrody, thanks for the comments.
Are there any planes that release the mount points with the drop tanks?
There are some that always have the hardpoints even if you don't take the tanks or bombs and thus don't lose anything for taking them. A small number have specialized setups that leave them clean.
Off the top of my head, I think the I-16 is clean after dropping tanks, and some of the spits too.
All Spitfires.
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When I fly 109s (typically f-4 and G-2), I often take the drop tank and 50% internal fuel. When I make contact, off goes the drop tank. I don't sweat the small speed penalty of the rack as neither of these 109s can run down late war fighters, and I get in close via maneuvering. Weight is a bigger issue than pure speed IMHO.
For most other types I'll take drops as needed. I usually carry only as much internal fuel as I need for 10 minutes of fighting, plus return flight.
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The reason you benefit is because you're almost out of gas... So in general if you only want one suicidal fight then this method works fine. However, if you want to keep killing longer, and if you'd rather run out of ammo than gas, it's better to take more internal gas, and just burn it off on the way to the fight.
You don't want to stall fight a 109 with a full tank, but if you take 75% or 100% and fly out to the fight, you could be down to 50% or 75% by the time you get there. This is generally better, IMO, as you can adapt to more situations. You never know when you're going to be chasing bombers 3 sectors, or when you're getting dragged into a constant chain of fights where you can't get out for 10 minutes or more.
DT+25%, drop it when you enter combat, is really only for short fights.
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I think they should get stuck to the plane where you can't drop them if you pull a certain amount of G with them attached.
Same for bombs.
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When I fly 109s (typically f-4 and G-2), I often take the drop tank and 50% internal fuel. When I make contact, off goes the drop tank. I don't sweat the small speed penalty of the rack as neither of these 109s can run down late war fighters, and I get in close via maneuvering. Weight is a bigger issue than pure speed IMHO.
Interesting opinion, Widewing. True, with 50% fuel, the Spits were much easyer to beat.
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When I fly 109s (typically f-4 and G-2), I often take the drop tank and 50% internal fuel. When I make contact, off goes the drop tank. I don't sweat the small speed penalty of the rack as neither of these 109s can run down late war fighters, and I get in close via maneuvering. Weight is a bigger issue than pure speed IMHO.
For most other types I'll take drops as needed. I usually carry only as much internal fuel as I need for 10 minutes of fighting, plus return flight.
Ditto.
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I never used DTs or bombs on 109s as the rack causes an 5-7mph speed penality. The inpact on the maneuverability was as minor that i couldnt really notice it. True, sometimes it wasnt easy to turn with a full tank.
Tryed some P47s too. As the rack isnt removable, i think its a good idea to grab DTs and like 50% fuel. As far as i can remember, most (if not all) of the american planes have built-in DT mounts.
Double check your penalty on speed when carrying the rack. It isn't as bad as many think. Oh and you're not crazy, the 109's don't suffer from the added "weight" or drag of the rack in terms of maneuverability.
I seriously suggest people not worry about the rack if they are planning on staying in the air or need to travel a few sectors for escort duty, no matter how a player looks at it if the rack makes or breaks your staying alive then they probably should not have been in that predicament to begin with. Even in a tight knife fight vs a comparable Spitfire the rack shouldn't make or break the battle.
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Double check your penalty on speed when carrying the rack. It isn't as bad as many think. Oh and you're not crazy, the 109's don't suffer from the added "weight" or drag of the rack in terms of maneuverability.
Double checked as You have suggested.
The DT rack weights 50lbs, the bombrack weights 110lbs. I still dont know where i stated that the 109 suffers from noticable maneuverability by the weight of the rack tho... Anyway, 50lbs is about 0.7% extra weight what practically noone can feel in a turnfight. Just as i stated before. The 110lbs is about 1.7%, what can be noticed in a synthetic duel situation, against very equal sticks. But this thread is about the DT racks.
So:
109F clean, 100% fuel, 200 rounds in the 20mm cannon, wep speed at 10-20 feet altitude: 332mph
109F, DT dropped, rack on, wep speed: 327mph The difference is 5mph.
109G6, 100% fuel, one cannon with 200 rounds, wep speed at 20 feet: 336
109G6, DT dropped: 331mph The difference is 5mph.
109G6, bomb dropped: 329mph The difference is 7mph.
109K4, clean, 100% fuel, wep speed at 20 feet: 367mph
109K4, DT dropped: 361mph Thats a 6mph difference, guessing i wasnt that far from the truth.
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Debrody nice stats. Thanks for posting.
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109s have a tiny little gas tank and fuel state is not as significant as in other planes. If on the other hand you take a P47-N, the internal fuel load is 550 gallons, which is enough to fill 4.5 109s - then fuel state makes a huge difference. In 109s I would fill the tank before adding any DT. In P47s, you pay the speed penalty anyway because the mounts are fixed and the fuel state in combat is much more significant (not to mention aux tank which distabilizes the plane). For P-47s I tend to take less than 100% and add a DT. 75% fills the main and leaves the aux almost empty.
With Mossie VI, the DT costs very little speed and climb even when still on the plane. The 100% internal fuel range is completely insane and there is absolutely no need to use 100%. Therefore my standard loadout is 50%+DT (the small ones) which lasts 40+ minutes if DT are drained dry before losing them. Since I tend to die in less than 20 minutes, this is plenty and 50% internal allows the Mossie some manoeuvring in combat. I never checked how long the large DT+100% internal can last. I can probably set it on auto climb, go to work, return and it will be ready to land on the moon.
On the F6F, the DT is huge and costs a lot of speed while attached. I will only take it if not in a hurry to get to the target because it really slows you down on transit while attached. Not sure about penalties once released, but our F6F is already missing 15-20 mph at alt, so a few more make no difference.
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Bozon,
On the Mossie I just take 50% clean. Anything that slows me down is to be avoided, even the 4-5mph of the drop tank shackles.
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Bozon,
On the Mossie I just take 50% clean. Anything that slows me down is to be avoided, even the 4-5mph of the drop tank shackles.
For the mossie...This^ And consider dumping all or most or your .303 ammo as well, this adds to almost 300lbs (you wouldn't dogfight with a 250lb bomb would you) and also burn your wingtanks first. Doing all of these adds a bit here and there to performance, but when all used together makes a very exploitable impact upon performance. Especially since this is an aircraft that is not considered to put up much of a fight...and the enemy never sees it coming.
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Just about ALL the gas is in wing tanks, in the mossie!
Also, there's no reason to get rid of the 300lbs of .303s, because that's barely even ONE percent of the loaded weight. You save just as much weight by burning off 50 gallons of fuel. Consider that it holds something like 550+ gallons total. 50% gives you some 275 gallons give or take and nets about 35 mins OFF wep (far less using WEP, this thing is thirsty) so you'll burn through FAR more than just a measely 300 lbs before, during, and after combat. 50 gals of gas is like 4 minutes off-wep. Burn wep for 2 minutes and you've already lost more weight than the .303 ammo.
At some point, nitpicking every last ounce seems to be futile. It's better to keep the .303s and empty them into the enemy. You only benefit from using them instead of wasting them. This also applies to some other very heavy planes. Don't dump tail gun ammo on 110s. Don't dump 7mms on Fw190A, etc. Better to just keep them and focus on flying rather than on less than 1% of the weight of your plane.
My $0.02.
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On the Mossie I just take 50% clean. Anything that slows me down is to be avoided, even the 4-5mph of the drop tank shackles.
For the mossie...This^ And consider dumping all or most or your .303 ammo as well, this adds to almost 300lbs (you wouldn't dogfight with a 250lb bomb would you) and also burn your wingtanks first.
I thought that the Mossie wing tanks did not leave shackles when released. They are a bit like the Spit belly tanks in that they are wrapped around the wing, instead of hanging below like the American DTs. Even when still attached, I feel that the speed loss is very low and climb is reduced only by ~100 fpm. I will test the impact on speed tonight: clean, DT on, DT released.
I am with Krusty regarding the 303. If I could have left the guns themselves at home then maybe. As it is I do not bother to empty them, even though I only shoot the cannons in combat. The 303 are useful for shooting chutes and the occasional kill when I am out of real ammo. I also use them to scare people of HOing me - just shoot away from 1.5k. If you start early enough, most players will move out of the way and not try to HO what they believe is nose mounted 4*20mm.
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I don't dump .303s and I don't try to drain out wing tanks first. Those simply don't make that much of a difference.
Bozon, the Mossie seems to use the same hardpoints for both bombs and droptanks and they are left behind after the bomb/tank is released. It isn't much, but given the quantity of fuel it already carriers I don't see the point of losing even that.
Just ran a new test:
Mosquito Mk VI at 150ft:
| 50% fuel + droptanks: | MIL: 306 | WEP: 341 |
| 50% fuel + shackles: | MIL: 318 | WEP: 354 |
| 50% fuel & clean: | MIL: 320 | WEP: 357 |