Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: chris3 on August 29, 2012, 01:24:48 AM
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moin
anyone notice that the range of the rounds of the 410 isn t much, i notice that at deacking a fild. i fired a a gunamplacment and the rounds fly straigt to the place but shortly infront of it thay disapear.
i knew that the range of the smal amunition is limited but it seams to me that these range is limited more at the 410 as to other aircraft.
maybe a bug? does anyone notice that too?
cu christian
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Yes, I notice something very similar. At longer ranges, I see plenty of flashes for 20mm and 13mm hits, nothing, absolutely nothing, from the MK 103s. It strikes me as strange since the ballistics of the 103s are so so good. My gunnery is teh suck, however teh level of teh suck seems to be inconsistent.
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moin
i cant deack at long ranges with 20mm and 30mm it seems to me thay all disapeer.
and i dont mean more than 1,5 k with long range. there is something wrong i think.
cu christian
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Ranges are pretty accurately modeled based on the Rechlin data tables. 3cm Minengeschoss rounds had a self distruct in the fuze that kicked in about 1200 yards so the equivalent of stick grenades were not scattered all over populated areas.
In game testing for Max effective range. This is the longest distance in yards the round will make a sprite on the offline target.
Gun----------Maxdist------dispersion
MG131 ------1040yd-------50ft dia.
MG151\20----940yd-------50ft dia.
MG103 ------1040yd-------50ft dia.
MG108 -------900yd-------60ft dia. <--- for comparison.
If you want to stand off and de-ack from 1.5k-2k use the BK5. The 410 manual for the MK103 shows 800m(875yd) as the maximum effective distance.
Because the MK103 patterns higher than the MG151\20 due to shooting flatter to 800m. I wonder if the twin MK103 fired from a seperate switch to save 20mm ammo when shooting at bombers from maximum effective range? No matter the convergence I set offline for the 20mm and 30mm, at 900 yards the 20mm patternd 40 feet below the MK103 rounds. The two cannon types had to be on different switches. The best combined patterning is at about 400yds and that would have gotten the 410 in real life killed by the B17 and B24 guns.
The ZFR4 gunsight that combined a telescope with the Revi16 was installed for the MK103 and BK5 to shoot bombers at long range. This would also indicate the MK103 fired from a seperate switch like the BK5 since the 20mm had more rounds and hit 40ft below the 30mm rounds at 900 yards. Reading the master wiring schematic from the 410 armerors manual the MK103 firing cricuits were not tied to the MG131 and MG151\20 circuits. They are routed through the same pre-wired Kit block for BK5 and MK103.
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Maximum effective range for bombers' .50cals was 150-200 yards. Maximum effective for fighters of any armament was 300 yards.
Maximum effective doesn't mean the round disappears.
I did notice something funny with the Mk.103s, though. I noticed it didn't SEEM like they were hitting, because I got maybe 1-2 fireballs out of a long solid burst on a B-17. However, the plane shed tons of parts so I think they were doing their work, but maybe the graphics weren't showing up?
Not sure...
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Rounds do eventually disappear in AH. They don't just keep on going until they hit the ground.
It's been quite a while, but I believe HTC said the rounds will disappear after a certain amount of time passes (not range). I forget how long it takes...
Anyway, rounds will travel farther at higher alt, because they slow down less (less air density modeled).
You can easily verify this by using the .target. Fly on auto-level 1000 feet or so above sea level, and fire at the target at progressively longer distances, until you see that the rounds fail to make any marks on the target. You'll see that they stop marking the target far before they would ever fall below the target.
Then climb up to 10-15K, and repeat the experiment. You'll see that the range has increased with the extra altitude.
Since the "disappearance" is time-based, rounds that fly faster will continue to impact targets out at further ranges than will rounds that fly slower...
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I don't think we're disputing that part as much. I think the claim is they're disappearing shorter than other guns.
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^ this.
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I don't think we're disputing that part as much. I think the claim is they're disappearing shorter than other guns.
As they should.
They will disappear closer than some rounds, and further away than others.
All rounds disappear after the same time, but they don't all fly the same distance. Cannon rounds will generally disappear at a shorter range than MG's. It depends on velocity.
What range are they disappearing at?
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moin
ah thanks for that explanation. now i understand the diverence. when i deack with my 190 or 109 i do have longer ranges because my birds a lidel bit faster. thats mades the diverence. wen i fly in my 410 and start shoting at the acks as i do wit my lidel birds the range is a lidel bit less and the rounds disappere something about 5 meters over the ack. thats realy not much but if you deack and you fire direct at a save target and go to the next you just surpricet that the first ack doesnt get down lol.
maybe the round fly time shoud be put up a bit because something about 1k range is realy not much for projektils like that.
cu christian
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I think the gun selection for the MK103 as a bomber destroyer special weapon package like the BK5 should be tied to the same weapon selection function and fired alone like the BK5. The ZFR4 telescope gunsight was mounted with both packages to facilitate standoff aiming at bombers from 1000 meters. The telescope below the reflector gunsight was not for aiming the MG151\20 or MG131.
Both the 3cm and 5cm Minengeschoss had self destruct fuzes(mit Zerleger). The self destruct fuze was activated as the spin on the round slowed down past 1000m for the 3cm round at about 1200m. The 5cm round was effective to 2000m. The self destruct was probably engaged not far past that as the spin slowed. Otherwise these rounds would potentialy be dropping on civillian locations killing german citizens.
The MG151\20 cannot be made to pattern with the MK103 from 1000m as a standoff weapon. At 900yds the MG151\20 patterens 40 feet below the MK103. The 2 cm Flakvierling 38 from the Wirbelwind could because it fires at 900m\sec versus 720m\sec but, was not mounted in the Me410.
I know in the game we want to HO and de-ack with everything we have, the bigger the better. It made no sense to electricly trigger the 13mm and 20mm with the 3cm when the 3cm was used for standoff shooting of bombers outside of defensive gunner range with a specific long range telescope sight.
The MK103 fired at 380rpm versus the MG151\20 at 750rpm. By the time you fire off all 100 rounds per MK103 at 1000yds, you will have used up half your 20mm ammo missing your target by 40 feet low. In the game your 20mm will have dissapered into the matrix by 941yds. So you might as well sit on the runway and fire off most of your 20mm before going bomber hunting. The germans were not that stupid to place two guns on the same switch that cannot hit the same target at the intended engagement range.
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At some point or another I suppose I should try to work up a sight for the BK5, put a couple of bars on the standard sight for 1000m and 1500m.
This will require me to be organised. Might as well try to grow another head.
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In this post I have a gunsight pac which has a Mil calibrated gunsight tool that will help you accomplish your impact point marks. Put it in the 410 and fly auto level and shoot at full zoom. You might want to set the arena time to (.time 01:00) The MK103 shoots to 1040yds. At 1041yds the rounds are absorbed by the matrix. I think the BK5 in the game shoots to about 2400yds which the impact point is 25Mil below center on your gunsight. To test it you will have to set your offline target pitch I think down to 358 or 357 becasue of the drop at that range. About 43m or 142ft.
It's called BoreSight and it's calibrated in Mil to assist you with the shot patterns at distance.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,337449.0.html
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With the Boresight tool you can create something like this. The numbers are in 10Mil incraments. If you build your gunsights in 512x512 1Mil = 2Pixel.
Revi16d Modified with a Mil ramp for the Me410 BK5. 25Mil is about a 2000 yard shot. One of my my squad mates verified hitting a B17 at 2500 aiming with 25Mil elevation. This GIF is not scalable to a 512x512 bmp so that the 1Mil = 2Pixel. Most players today don't seem to like traditional reticle for their historic gunsights. They want things that are aimboty or starwarish.
Use the boresight tool on auto level and record your impact clouds at distance. Then remember that the Mil numbers from the boresight tool only work if you build a 512x512 bitmap gunsight. Remember whatever you name your gunsight:
(gunsight.bmp) make a (gunsight.mil) file with the number 256 in it.
Then Mil will display correctly in your gunsight. When yo make the (.mil) file start it as a (gunsight.mil.txt). After you save it then rename it to (gunsight.mil) The game seems to not be able to read a text file you save as (gunsight.mil)
(http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/7774/revi16rmp.gif)
This is what BoreSight.bmp looks like which I used to determine the shot patterns for the MK103 and BK5 offline.
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8605/boresight.gif)
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You rock man, thanks for all of that, sights and info.
I guess I'll lay off the 103s at very long ranges...
You wouldn't know, offhand, what the actual caroon distance is when the bad guy's icon changes from 1.5 to 1.0 would you?
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Someone like Lusche, Krusty, Karnak, Morefeind or Hitech would have that answer.
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As they should.
They will disappear closer than some rounds, and further away than others.
All rounds disappear after the same time, but they don't all fly the same distance. Cannon rounds will generally disappear at a shorter range than MG's. It depends on velocity.
Not exactly... Most disappear over 1000 yards. The Mk103 had a significantly higher muzzle velocity than MG151/20 or Mk108. It has a very fast, very flat, trajectory. If anything this type of round should persist in-game longer than other rounds. Similar to the 37mm rounds.
I seem to recall HTC has said it is distance-based, and not time-based, though. Smaller rounds up to 20mm or mk108 30mm go up to 1.2k or whatever, and 37mm are longer, 40mm longer still, 50mm longer, 75mm longer, etc...
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moin
however, the mk103 round disapear way to early for a 30mm round.
cu christian
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Yeah, they do indeed disappear over 1000 yards, 50 cals seem to go longer?
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Yeah, they do indeed disappear over 1000 yards, 50 cals seem to go longer?
Yes (they travel faster so fly further before they "time out").
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That's bass-ackwards for the Me 410, according to the original handbooks anyway. The 13mms have the worst ballistics for any of the ammo listed - the 131s are as good as useless past 500m.
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OK, just had a quick look, I was wrong, the cannon (not sure which ones, though I assume it's both) do hit at 1000, the 131s not.
The point remains though, the 103s have better ballistics than the 20mms, they should be hitting further out.
Would also be interested in seeing how the cannon compare for velocity to the US 50 cals of WWII, which as I know to my cost are lethal out past 1000 yds in AH.
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I mentioned above some tables from the 410 manuals, thought it might be worthwhile to include, shows a variety of weapons.
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad212/mhuxt/410a.jpg)
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad212/mhuxt/410b.jpg)
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad212/mhuxt/410c.jpg)
If I'm reading this right, the LW reckoned the BK 5 would be right on the gunsight dot at 900m, the 103s and 20mms at 800, despite the 103s being located nearly 60 cms below the 20mms in the aircraft.
Bustr, in your experience, is it possible to replicate similar charts in AH? What I mean is, in the hangar, should I set convergence for the 103s to 200 y190 meters or so, in the expectation that the shells will come back down again onto the pipper at 800m as predicted? Same for the BK 5 - shall I set convergence to 210 meters, or to 650 yards(as that's the longest which AH allows)?
Some interesting little notes in the charts. One of them says the dispersion charts aren't presented as the weapons are located so close together - a spread of 1.2 can be reckoned with at all ranges!
I wants. Now if only I can master the stall...
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Something to note: bothe the Me 410 A-1/U4 (5cm gun) and B-2/U1 (2x MK 103) are referring to the 15mm version of the MG 151, not the 2cm version. The image 15b, noting the Geschoßflugbahn MG 151/20, is obviously an error as all other tables talk about the 15mm version.
I remember reading another manual which was stating the MG 151/20 rounds crossed the line of vision at 550m.
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If you mean that the manual only mentions "MG151" it does not mean a 15mm version but merely that both of that type could be fitted, 15 or 20mm type.
-C+
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I can hit the target at d1310 with the mk103.
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Film? Or even easier...screenshot? Not doubting, just curious. Like your story of 1K+ NS-37s shots. Again, not starting a war, just curious since I don't think I ever saw film or screenshot of it. (I probably missed it).
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It would surely take less time for you to test it yourself........which will only confirm what I said earlier.
While you're at it, test the ns37 as well and spare the forums this kind of bs.
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I don't think I'm good enough. :) Can you show it for me? Pretty please. :airplane:
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Target is at 940 yards because past that 20mm are absorbed. You will notice that the MG151\20 hits 40 feet below the MK103 and 20 feet below the MG131 13mm.
This is why I beleive for stand off shooting at bombers using the ZFR4 telescope gunsight at 1000 yards only the MK103 was fired just like the BK5. Otherwise there was no reason in the armerors manual to specify the ZFR4 as the gunsight to be mounted along with the exact same weapons selector switch SZKK4 for both weapons packages.
The MK103 patterns at 1000 yards about the same places as in these screen captures with about a 30ft dispersion. The real dispersion was about 30ft at 1000m for the MK103 and 60ft at 900m for the MG151\20. You cannot make the MG151\20 pattern with the MK103 much past 650 yards becasue the MG151\20 slows down and drops off due to the following from bench firing tests at Rechlin.
MG131\13 -- 750m\sec
MG151\20 -- 720m\sec
MK103\30 -- 860m\sec
Gun -----------600m-----700m-----800m------900m---drop at distance
MG131\13----1.92m-----3.05m-----4.56m-----6.55m(21.4ft)
MG151\20----5.02m-----7.85m----11.20m---14.06m(46.1ft)<---this is why the MK103 was fired like the BK5.
MK103\30----3.03m-----4.27m-----5.79m-----7.62m(25ft)
Each Ring on the Target is 10ft wide.
30mm - 150 conv, 13mm and 20mm - 650 converg.
(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4563/me410150.gif)
30mm - 325 conv, 13mm and 20mm - 650 converg.
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8056/me410325.gif)
30mm - 650 conv, 13mm and 20mm - 650 converg.
(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/7214/me410650.gif)
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Thanks for that Bustr.
Had a crack at it with the settings in the manuals, can't get the 30mms right on the pipper at 900 yards as I should (near as dammit 800m), can do so at 800 yards though.
You're correct also about the impossibility of using the 20mm with the MK103s, the gap is too large. Would be really great if we could use the 30mms with a separate fire button. Without that, the 20mms are just dead weight.
How about it HTC? The BK 5 needs the backspace button, can we get the 30mms that way too?
(And while I'm at it, can we get another crew position with a telescopic view for the special sight for the big guns?)
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Rounds disappearance is time base, but life time is configured for each weapons separately not a global number.
HiTech
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moin
than it would be nice if you can made tham a bit longer for the 410 weapons. :D
cu christian
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Would also be neat to have the option of a 151/15 loadout...
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You're correct also about the impossibility of using the 20mm with the MK103s, the gap is too large. Would be really great if we could use the 30mms with a separate fire button. Without that, the 20mms are just dead weight.
How about it HTC? The BK 5 needs the backspace button, can we get the 30mms that way too?
Not so. I rather like being able to fire 20mms at the same time as 30mms. You would significantly hobble the burst firing capabilities of the 410 by setting up the trigger that way. They should not be compared to the BK5 like you do.
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I don't like having to fire them together, as the 30mms are great as a standoff weapon, at which ranges the 20mms are, as has been shown above, well below the target. By the time both sets of cannon are passing through the same space, the 410's in so close the ballistic advantage of the 103s is completely nullifiedl.
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Ballistics alone aren't its only benefit. The giant fireball and the POW it gives are quite handy at ranges LESS than 1 km, as well!
This is where the snapshot capability comes in handy, and also when you're diving at high speed on bombers below, firing all cannons helps. Those Mk103 can land several without quite detaching a wing, or a fuselage. You fire the 20mms with them, and it's a sure thing. The bomber is so large a target that at moderate ranges you're still likely to hit with both caliber cannons.
I can understand what you mean about the "sniping" Mk 103s, but that's not their only use is what I want to point out.
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We could have the anti-shipping version that I/ZG 1 used. It was moved into the anti-bomber role with the FuG 200 "Hohentwiel" radar removed. The A1\U4(BK5) and B2\U1(MK103) Zerstörer both had the ZFR4 telescope gunsight installed for aiming the primary long range weapon outside of bomber defensive fire range. Both of these versions supported additional forward firing pairs of 13mm and 20mm.
Antishipping Zerstörergeschwader
Me 410-B6 2-13mm, 2-20mm, 2-MK103, and FuG 200 "Hohentwiel" radar.
Something as large as a surface vessel would be the kind of target that the differences in ballistics would be acceptable at about 600m since you have such a large area of very slow moving target to shower rounds upon. But, as you saw in the offline target screen captures, the 20mm is not an acceptable long range weapon slaved to the MK103 past 650 while the MK103 can hit bombers from 1000 with a high rate of fire.
Sitting at 1000 behind a B17 is opening things up to a few random .50 cals reaching you. Still, if you do your home work offline and build your gunsight from testing against the target. You can become pretty accurate from 1000 with the MK103. I just hate to see players wasting half their 20mm while sniping bombers from 1000 yards in the game when an historical sollution exists within the selector switch.
Scherf,
The ZFR4 gunsight was a Revi16 body with a telescope incorporated into it just below the reticle projector lense. The pilot looked through the telescope which had it's own reticle to aim the MK103 or BK5. In the game you would simple use full zoom.
Zielfernrohre ZFR4A Gunsight
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3413/zfr4.gif)
Reticle Image
(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/7493/zfr42.gif)
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Thanks again bustr. I've been using full zoom online, however I was hoping we could get something like the full zoom that's available in the film viewer.
I *do* love them bright orange puffballs from the 30mms.
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As the 410 was easy to modify from a bomber into an interceptor on the field in few hours there was a wide variety of different combinations. ZFR4 could be used with MK103 of BK5 but there are examples of both without it. Many interceptors had the upper nose glazing switched to a armored panel and there was also a model where the armor panel could be moved up to provide added protection or down to improve view.
-C+
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Guess Hitech should direct Waffle to update the 410 with a cover over the lower nose glass and coad some more armor. Then everyone set the guns to 650 in the MK103 version and accept getting blown out of the sky by bombers, or giving up half their 20mm to shoot bombers at 1000 yards.
999000 will love this.
After digging through this nice read....we could have almost anything the Luft decided to put together and call Me410xx\xx.
http://www.1y2gm.com/t3177-messerschmitt-me-210-410