Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Tank-Ace on September 11, 2012, 09:46:14 PM
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I would enjoy seeing the weapons options on the 109's and 190's updated a bit.
More specifically:
DT for the 109E
250kg bomb for the 109F
Gondies back for the 109F
30mm for the 109G-6
300L underwing drop tanks on the A8, as on the A5/U8
SC 250 wing racks for a 250kg bomb for the 190F8
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I would enjoy seeing the weapons options on the 109's and 190's updated a bit.
More specifically:
DT for the 109E
250kg bomb for the 109F
Gondies back for the 109F
30mm for the 109G-6
300L underwing drop tanks on the A8, as on the A5/U8
SC 250 wing racks for a 250kg bomb for the 190F8
Few things.... from top of my head in previous threads
190F8 did not carry SC 250's on the wings, it was either drop tanks on the wings and bomb in middle, or four small 50kg bombs on the wings and DT in the middle.
109F did not carry gondolas, it was a field modification that few like Adolf Galland used.
Far as Drop tanks for 109E4 - I seen very very few photos (same amount as a C.205) of 109E4's using drop tanks, only squad I can think that did use them were JG 5 - some Trop models used Drop Tanks in north africa.
Ill check my books for any 30mm versions of the G6, not sure on this.
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109F did not carry gondolas, it was a field modification that few like Adolf Galland used.
You're confusing the R1 Mg151/20 gondola kit which became a field mod in 1942, with Galland's one-off F-2 that had the Mg FF cannon package fitted to the wings in 1941. The Mg FF's required much reworking of the wing structure to fit, and were considered unsatisfactory. The R1 kit, while requiring some modification to the wings, were much easier to install. That, and the Mg 151 is a far superior cannon. R1 kits were already fairly common, by the time the 109G-2 was introduced. These were built with the supports and wiring for the R1 kits in place, effectively making them bolt-on.
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Few things.... from top of my head in previous threads
190F8 did not carry SC 250's on the wings, it was either drop tanks on the wings and bomb in middle, or four small 50kg bombs on the wings and DT in the middle.
109F did not carry gondolas, it was a field modification that few like Adolf Galland used.
Far as Drop tanks for 109E4 - I seen very very few photos (same amount as a C.205) of 109E4's using drop tanks, only squad I can think that did use them were JG 5 - some Trop models used Drop Tanks in north africa.
Ill check my books for any 30mm versions of the G6, not sure on this.
190F carried SC 250's on the wings. We've already covered this. It just couldn't carry the SC 250's AND the SC 500 on the center line simultaneously. Or at least we haven't been able to find pics of all three being carried, at any rate.
Wing DT's for the 190F would be nice, as well.
109G-6/U4 carried the 30mm.
Also, IIRC, the 109E-7 was just the 109E-4 we have now, but with DT as standard.
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Gondolas were removed from the F-4 and the 30mm from the G-6 specifically to make them more representative of their intended time period.
At the same time, and suggested by us Spitfire fans, the boost was reduced on the Mk V, the cannon ammo was halved on the Mk V and the .50 cals and ordnance options were removed from the Mk IX, also to make them more accurate representatives of their intended time.
Want gondolas? Fly a G-2. Want a 30mm? Fly a G-14 or K-4.
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190F carried SC 250's on the wings. We've already covered this. It just couldn't carry the SC 250's AND the SC 500 on the center line simultaneously. Or at least we haven't been able to find pics of all three being carried, at any rate.
Wing DT's for the 190F would be nice, as well.
109G-6/U4 carried the 30mm.
From what I have on paper, the 190F/8 did not carry 250kg's on the wings, What I have shows the 190G carried bombs on the wings as well as drop tanks.
However the 190F8/U1 did in fact carry bombs on the wings, however the ETC 501 was removed.
190F8 or 190F9 model carried the following:
4x 50kg and 1x 250kg centerline
4x 50kg and 1x 500kg centerline
4x 50kg and 1x 300L drop tank
4x 50kg and 4x50kg bombs centerline
2x PB 12 rockets
2x Wrf. Gr. 28/32 rockets
1x 1,000kg bomb
8x PD 8.8cm
190F8/u1
2x 250kg bombs on the wings
2x 500kg bombs on the wings
2x S 250 on the wings
G model is what carries bombs and a Drop tank from what you are asking, F model did not carry both, G model was designed as long range attack version rather then F model which was a close support aircraft.
I am not sure if it would need to be remodeled, or what - but the F mode would not have bombs/DT's, It shows two of the 190G models are based on A5's and A8 models, don't think it would hard to add one or the other versions in game with bomb options.
You're confusing the R1 Mg151/20 gondola kit which became a field mod in 1942, with Galland's one-off F-2 that had the Mg FF cannon package fitted to the wings in 1941. The Mg FF's required much reworking of the wing structure to fit, and were considered unsatisfactory. The R1 kit, while requiring some modification to the wings, were much easier to install. That, and the Mg 151 is a far superior cannon. R1 kits were already fairly common, by the time the 109G-2 was introduced. These were built with the supports and wiring for the R1 kits in place, effectively making them bolt-on.
Ah gotcha, I couldn't remember off hand if galland had it or not - I seen some of his aircrafts photos, my brain just failed me.
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Gondolas were removed from the F-4 and the 30mm from the G-6 specifically to make them more representative of their intended time period.
At the same time, and suggested by us Spitfire fans, the boost was reduced on the Mk V, the cannon ammo was halved on the Mk V and the .50 cals and ordnance options were removed from the Mk IX, also to make them more accurate representatives of their intended time.
Want gondolas? Fly a G-2. Want a 30mm? Fly a G-14 or K-4.
IIRC, they were also removed before we had the option to disable certian loadouts for aircraft. In other words, the only way to make them representative was to remove the weapons from the airframe entirely, not just disable them.
From what I have on paper, the 190F/8 did not carry 250kg's on the wings, What I have shows the 190G carried bombs on the wings as well as drop tanks.
However the 190F8/U1 did in fact carry bombs on the wings, however the ETC 501 was removed.
The F8 did infact carry bombs on the wings. You even admit it, with the F8/U1, which is still a 190F8.
Also, I didn't ask for bombs and DT's on the 190. I just asked for the wing racks to be added.
190F8 or 190F9 model carried the following:
4x 50kg and 1x 250kg centerline
4x 50kg and 1x 500kg centerline
4x 50kg and 1x 300L drop tank
4x 50kg and 4x50kg bombs centerline
2x PB 12 rockets
2x Wrf. Gr. 28/32 rockets
1x 1,000kg bomb
8x PD 8.8cm
190F8/u1
2x 250kg bombs on the wings
2x 500kg bombs on the wings
2x S 250 on the wings
Sounds good, lets add em.
G model is what carries bombs and a Drop tank from what you are asking, F model did not carry both, G model was designed as long range attack version rather then F model which was a close support aircraft.
I am not sure if it would need to be remodeled, or what - but the F mode would not have bombs/DT's, It shows two of the 190G models are based on A5's and A8 models, don't think it would hard to add one or the other versions in game with bomb options.
Would be interesting to see a G model in AH.
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I'd really like to see the 190F-8 get the 4/50kg bombs on the center line mount.
Not only would be it historically accurate, but it would also add something in to AH that we currently do not have: a fighter w/ 8 bomb capacity. That would be a nice set up to de-ack towns and hunt gv's with. :aok
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The F8 did infact carry bombs on the wings. You even admit it, with the F8/U1, which is still a 190F8.
Would be interesting to see a G model in AH.
I see two different ground attack version of the Fw-190F/8.... Both planes carry far different ordnance loadouts, I don't believe they are the same aircraft.
For example the F/8 carries the ETC 501(504) centerline the F-8/U1 has it removed, the F-8/u1 also has the ETC 503 on the wings, where F/8 has ETC 50(71).
I might be wrong but I believe they are two totally different aircrafts, what you are asking is for the U1 or I would recommend the G model 190 which is a long range strike fighter rather then close support aircraft. Maybe someone else can shed some light on the main differences between the two versions?
190G-3 had ETC 501 on centerline and ETC 501 on the wings
Ords loadout was:
250kg centerline
1000kg centerline
pair of 250kg on the wings
Pair of 300L Drop tanks on the wings
Pair of 250kg bombs on the wings, centerline 300l drop tank
pair of S 250 bombs.
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I'd really like to see the 190F-8 get the 4/50kg bombs on the center line mount.
Not only would be it historically accurate, but it would also add something in to AH that we currently do not have: a fighter w/ 8 bomb capacity. That would be a nice set up to de-ack towns and hunt gv's with. :aok
All Versions of the 190F Carried the ER 4+4x50 KG bombs, in addition it did also carry 4x 50kg on the wings giving it a total of 12x 50kg bombs.
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I see two different ground attack version of the Fw-190F/8.... Both planes carry far different ordnance loadouts, I don't believe they are the same aircraft.
For example the F/8 carries the ETC 501(504) centerline the F-8/U1 has it removed, the F-8/u1 also has the ETC 503 on the wings, where F/8 has ETC 50(71).
I might be wrong but I believe they are two totally different aircrafts, what you are asking is for the U1 or I would recommend the G model 190 which is a long range strike fighter rather then close support aircraft. Maybe someone else can shed some light on the main differences between the two versions?
The U stands for Umrüst-Bausätze, and just indicates that it had a factory refit package, in the same way that /R designates that it has a Rüstsatz field upgrade kit.
Don't quote me on this, but IIRC, most of our DT's, bombs, and gondolas for our German aircraft are from either Umrüst-Bausätze, or Rüstsatz kits.
190G-3 had ETC 501 on centerline and ETC 501 on the wings
Ords loadout was:
250kg centerline
1000kg centerline
pair of 250kg on the wings
Pair of 300L Drop tanks on the wings
Pair of 250kg bombs on the wings, centerline 300l drop tank
pair of S 250 bombs.
So basically, it seems like a longer-ranged, ever-so-slightly less flexible 190F. Would be really nice to not have to throttle back to like 220mph during flight to have enough range on some of the more spread out maps.
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...and the 30mm from the G-6 specifically to make them more representative of their intended time period.
You keep repeating this without a single official word from HTC as far as I've seen anyway. When the 109s got updated Pyro indeed did ask the community what loadouts should be included but I don't recall seeing him saying anything after that argument why he chose what he chose.
With the ability to remove available loadouts via host setting by CMs/AvA-staff, there's absolutely no reason not to have the 30mm cannon in the G-6.
AHs G-6 has features that suggest it being from early production (high antenna mast and the lack of D/F) and it also has glass armor in place of the steel armor which suggests that it's a mid production aircraft. Most of the later production aircraft had the Revi 16B gunsight while the early production aircraft had the gunsight that is on AH G-6 right now, the Revi C/12D. Although many G-6s that were produced as late as mid-44 still had the C/12D sight and the same canopy that is featured in AH (can be seen in many G-6s that went to Finland, for example). Glass armor was added as a number of players (me included) wished its inclusion as we saw the preview shots that featured the steel armor.
Copy-pasting D/F-loop antenna's 3d-model from G-14 to G-6 and clipping its radio mast a bit would essentially make it an accurate representation of a mid-production G-6. Of course one could argue that changing the Glass armor back to steel armor would then make it an accurate early-production plane, but I have to ask...what purpose exactly would that serve? Right now we have a nice selection of all the major mass-produced canopy-variations which adds nice variety. G-6 was the most produced variant of the BF 109. Why should it be only restricted to depict the earliest model possible? Saying that 30mm gets abused in events doesn't really fly as long as we have P-51s with 4 .50s and 3xB-20 La-7s for example. *There should rather be efforts for adding tools for CMs to define the available loadouts in events than for removal of loadouts that actually saw a lot of use. Lets think about a re-run of The Ruhr-scenario for example without the MK-108 option. By late summer of '43 the cannons were available. Again, there were plenty of G-6s flying with 30mm cannons AND featuring the exact same canopy that AH's G-6 already has (Canopy is the only feature that changed in production that matters AH-wise.). So, as it really isn't in HTC's interest to add 5 different G-6 subvariants they chose the one we have now. Weather it has the shorter antenna mast/d/f-loop or not shouldn't really matter...hell, it doesn't have a pitot tube either and since last version it started having a retractable tail wheel!
I think the reason why the MK-108 was removed in the first place was because Wotan suggested it when pyro asked about the 109-load outs and pyro went ahead with it. I disagree with the decision for the above reasons. Since it is removed I doubt it will be re-introduced anytime soon unfortunately.
*This was implemented in the later releases of AH but the Bf109G-6 didn't get its 30mm cannon back.
Bf109G-6/U4 production listing:
Here's another listing on the G-6/U4s produced (G-6 with the 30mm cannon). It's from Hannu Valtonen's book MESSERSCHMITT BF 109 JA SAKSAN SOTATALOUS (MESSERSCHMITT BF 109 AND GERMANY'S WAR ECONOMY).
WNr. 20000-20800---------85 U4s, 06.1943-08.1943
WNr. 440000-442099-----1419 U4s, 09.1943-08.1944
WNr. 510600-510999------130 U4s, 08.1944-10.1944
So according to this listing a total of 1634 /U4s were produced.
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Here's another listing on the G-6/U4s produced (G-6 with the 30mm cannon). It's from Hannu Valtonen's book MESSERSCHMITT BF 109 JA SAKSAN SOTATALOUS (MESSERSCHMITT BF 109 AND GERMANY'S WAR ECONOMY).
WNr. 20000-20800---------85 U4s, 06.1943-08.1943
WNr. 440000-442099-----1419 U4s, 09.1943-08.1944
WNr. 510600-510999------130 U4s, 08.1944-10.1944
So according to this listing a total of 1634 /U4s were produced.
With 1600 produced with the 30mm it should be re-added, perhaps given the course of time HTC can figure out a way to Grey out gun packages as he can with Drop tanks/Bombs - thus would allow the 30mm to be added to the g6 and allow CM's to grey it out for scenarios.
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perhaps given the course of time HTC can figure out a way to Grey out gun packages as he can with Drop tanks/Bombs - thus would allow the 30mm to be added to the g6 and allow CM's to grey it out for scenarios.
That feature is already there like I said in my previous post. It just wasn't there when I wrote that quote in 2008.
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That feature is already there like I said in my previous post. It just wasn't there when I wrote that quote in 2008.
Oh shoot sorry I was waking up when reading it, I would like to see an overhaul of the Armaments / bomb packages for aces high. Certain things like the Spitfire having 20mm / 50 cal option, maybe figure out what to do with the P-51 etc.
I had a list I wrote few years back of nearly a dozen packages that could be added / taken out of the game, for example fixing the damn p-51 so it doesn't have 1k bombs and rockets or perking that option.
I always wondered why the 4+4x50kg bomb option was never added for 190F, its not exactly a game changer - you in fact can get up to 12 bombs, but actually hitting a vehicle is another story unless its stopped.
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How do you mean 4+4 boms? Did they double stack bombs on the pylons, like we do with our modern jets?
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Didn't the G6 have a variety of engines, since its lifespan was almost 2 years ?
Guess we got the 1rst ever made.
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How do you mean 4+4 boms? Did they double stack bombs on the pylons, like we do with our modern jets?
When the 190F-8 carried 8/50kg bombs, it carried 2 on each wing and 4 center line, each on their own shackle. Similar to how the B5N carries the 3/250kg bombs, but only line abreast in a 2x2 manner. There are photos of this on the interwebs somewhere, I just need to find them. If HTC allowed the Typhoon with the 4 rockets + DT based on a photo I would hope they would allow the same courtesy for the 190F-8 and the 8/50kg bombs configuration. :aok
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I found a photo its called the ER-4 rack - only thing is I cannot find a 190 carrying all 8 bombs, not sure why it wouldn't or couldn't but no photos. I either find them with 4x bombs on the wing and a DT or 4 bombs center and nothing on the wings. Then again I have very few 190F photos.
(http://www.367thdynamitegang.com/upload/butch/190.jpg)
Edited I just found this - for close air support it did allow carrying all 8 bombs. 4th Armament on the list shows 4x 50kg on the wings, 4x 50kg in the middle.
(http://www.367thdynamitegang.com/upload/butch/1901.jpg)
i made a mistake thinking it was 12 bombs, its in fact 8 bombs total.
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Yeah, not a whole lot of photo documentation for the Axis. Where they have it, its usually pretty prolific, and where we still need it, its rarer than the Pinta Island Tortoise.
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Was there ever a variant of a 109 that carried 4 x 12mm?
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Was there ever a variant of a 109 that carried 4 x 12mm?
Not 12mm but I do know different versions that carried machine guns.
Bf 109 C-4 carried 4x MG 17s
BF 109 E-1 carried 4x MG 17s and 250kg bomb
E-3 was first to carry 2 MG 17s and MG/FF
I don't see any projects that carried 12mm other then 109F2 series which had the 12mm nose cannon. Also apart of its different equipments it could carry, doesn't list 4x 12mms of gun packages.
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Not 12mm but I do know different versions that carried machine guns.
Bf 109 C-4 carried 4x MG 17s
BF 109 E-1 carried 4x MG 17s and 250kg bomb
E-3 was first to carry 2 MG 17s and MG/FF
I don't see any projects that carried 12mm other then 109F2 series which had the 12mm nose cannon. Also apart of its different equipments it could carry, doesn't list 4x 12mms of gun packages.
The "12mm nose cannon" was the initial version of the MG-151 15mm cannon.
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The "12mm nose cannon" was the initial version of the MG-151 15mm cannon.
Ah yeah sorry, 15mm not 12 - it only was fitting on the 109F2, as for that I dont see any reference to 12mm or 15mm weapons on the 109s.
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I found a photo its called the ER-4 rack - only thing is I cannot find a 190 carrying all 8 bombs, not sure why it wouldn't or couldn't but no photos. I either find them with 4x bombs on the wing and a DT or 4 bombs center and nothing on the wings. Then again I have very few 190F photos.
(http://www.367thdynamitegang.com/upload/butch/190.jpg)
Edited I just found this - for close air support it did allow carrying all 8 bombs. 4th Armament on the list shows 4x 50kg on the wings, 4x 50kg in the middle.
(http://www.367thdynamitegang.com/upload/butch/1901.jpg)
i made a mistake thinking it was 12 bombs, its in fact 8 bombs total.
YES!!!! THERE IT IS!!! :salute Butcher
I really hope HTC allows for this. Like I've said before, this would add in something we currently do not have: a fighter with 8 bomb capacity. :aok Oh, and it would be historically accurate too!!! ;)
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YES!!!! THERE IT IS!!! :salute Butcher
I really hope HTC allows for this. Like I've said before, this would add in something we currently do not have: a fighter with 8 bomb capacity. :aok Oh, and it would be historically accurate too!!! ;)
Certainly more fun then trying to fly a TBF with 10x 100lb bombs since it flies like a School Bus :)
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Of course, it looks like that mount would cause a lot of drag unless it dropped away after use. That might make our 190 into just a slightly faster bus.