Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Bino on September 22, 2012, 02:59:00 PM
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Leaning Into France - April 1941
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Frame 1 - Sep. 07, 2012 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
In Britain, the following three fighter squadrons were mentioned in dispatches for their significant successes: "334th FS The Eagles", "CLAIM JUMPERS", and "49th FG Fighting 49ers". A particularly successful bombing attack was made by the squadrons "G3-MF" and "Air Raiders". The RAF have confirmed that twenty-three pilots were rescued after bailing out or crash-landing in Britain. Ten pilots are known to have been captured by the enemy. A further ten pilots are listed as missing in action. Two RAF planes were accidentally shot down by British forces, a Mitchell and a Hurricane. The list of those killed in action includes seventy-nine aircrew.
The Luftwaffe mounted an especially effective attack with the bombers of the "68th Lightning Lancers". Three Luftwaffe fighter squadrons were noted for destroying many enemy aircraft: "9GIAP VVS RKKA", "VF-17 Jolly Rogers", and "III/JG11 Sonderstaffel". Nine Luftwaffe pilots were saved after parachuting or crash-landing on the Continent. Twenty-two pilots were captured by the English. Eight pilots are missing in action. Two Messerschmitt 109s were mistakenly destroyed by Luftwaffe aircrew. A total of sixty-six pilots were lost in action against the enemy.
Frame 1 Point Tallies:
Allies:
| Air-to-air victories: | 915 |
| Bomb damage: | 190 |
| Landing bonus: | 160 |
| ALLIED POINTS: | 1,265 |
Axis:
| Air-to-air victories: | 1,160 |
| Bomb damage: | 129 |
| Landing bonus: | 280 |
| AXIS POINTS: | 1,569 |
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Frame 2 - Sep. 14, 2012 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
One RAF bomber squadron inflicted nearly two thirds of all damage wreaked on German targets, "G3-MF". Several RAF fighter squadrons were commended for their aerial victories: "CLAIM JUMPERS", "325th Checkertails VFG", "334th FS 'The Eagles'", and "VMF-222 ~Flying Deuces~". An RAF spokeman confirmed that twenty-one pilots were saved after having bailed out or crash-landed. Thirteen pilots were captured. Ten pilots are missing in action. One Spitfire was lost to "friendly fire". Eighty-eight pilots were killed in action.
Luftwaffe bomber squadron "JG2" conducted a very successful attack. Three fighter squadrons were singled out for praise: "III/JG11 Sonderstaffel", "Kommando Nowotny", and "~364th C-HAWKS FG~". German sources announced that fifteen pilots had been captured, while thirteen managed to parachute or crash-land in France and were rescued. Five pilots disappeared and are listed as missing in action. Three Luftwaffe aircraft were accidentally shot down, a Bf-109 fighter and two JU-88 bombers. A total of fifty-five pilots died in action.
Frame 2 Point Tallies:
Allies:
| Air-to-air victories: | 660 |
| Bomb damage: | 296 |
| Landing bonus: | 175 |
| ALLIED POINTS: | 1,131 |
Axis:
| Air-to-air victories: | 1,390 |
| Bomb damage: | 140 |
| Landing bonus: | 365 |
| AXIS POINTS: | 1,895 |
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Frame 3 - Sep. 21, 2012 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Only one RAF bomber group, composed of the squadrons "THE UNFORGIVEN" and "VMF-222 Flying Deuces", battled all the way to its target, a German airbase. Three RAF fighter squadrons were singled out for special notice in dispatches: "CLAIM JUMPERS", "G3-MF", and "49thFG Fighting 49ers". Twenty-eight pilots were rescued when they bailed out or ditched in England. Ten are missing in action. Thirty-four were captured by the enemy. Five aircraft were shot down in error by Allied forces, two Bostons and three Spitfires. Seventy-three pilots were lost.
The Luftwaffe's best bombing effort was made by the squadron "LCA" at an RAF airbase. Three fighter squadrons were very successful: "III/JG11 Sonderstaffel", "9GIAP VVS RKKA", and "1841 Sqn Fleet Air Arm". Twenty-one pilots were saved after parachuting or crash-landing in France. Six were captured. Eleven disappeared and are listed as missing in action. Four planes were lost to "friendly fire", two fighters and two bombers. Forty pilots are listed among the fallen.
Frame 3 Point Tallies:
Allies:
| Air-to-air victories: | 430 |
| Bomb damage: | 78 |
| Landing bonus: | 140 |
| ALLIED POINTS: | 648 |
Axis:
| Air-to-air victories: | 1,150 |
| Bomb damage: | 184 |
| Landing bonus: | 435 |
| PENALTY: | -200 |
| AXIS POINTS: | 1,569 |
NOTE 1:
Some Allied attacking formations were intercepted over the English Channel and did not reach their targets. No penalties are assessed.
NOTE 2:
The Axis mounted an insufficient attack on airbase A7, and is penalized 200 points.
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For the mathematically inclined, links to the spreadsheets I used to tally kill and BDA points are found below. I try to keep it simple.
Landing bonus calculations are based on the public AH Events site (pilots minus deaths, bailed, captured, crashed, ditched, dicsco'd).
kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-1-bda.xlsx (http://kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-1-bda.xlsx)
kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-1-kills.xlsx (http://kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-1-kills.xlsx)
kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-2-bda.xlsx (http://kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-2-bda.xlsx)
kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-2-kills-assists.xlsx (http://kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-2-kills-assists.xlsx)
kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-3-bda.xlsx (http://kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-3-bda.xlsx)
kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-3-kills.xlsx (http://kenshelby.us/fso-2012-09/frame-3-kills.xlsx)
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lol
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Bino,
Thanks for the extra effort in creating the little write-ups for each frame.
:salute
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Thanks for getting those out so fast Bino. Appreciated.
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Yes Bino, I loved the little write ups excellent job there!
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Bino love the write ups :aok
Looking at the points after each frame it appears to have been a decisive AXIS victory all around so a BIG :salute to the bad guys is in order.
Setup, squad division or both may need a bit of an adjustment for the next time we fly this scenario.
It was a fun scenario however. Long live the BOB scenario's!!
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I have a question on the 200 point Penalty for A7. Was it because three JU88s attacked when four were tasked? The minimum Max was 10-15 Ju88s and we were at 14.
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What do you mean by squad division?
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I have a question on the 200 point Penalty for A7. Was it because three JU88s attacked when four were tasked? The minimum Max was 10-15 Ju88s and we were at 14.
Per the Frame 3 Axis Objectives:
"...
5.) Each enemy target must be attacked by at least ten (10) pilots with bomb-carrying aircraft.
..."
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Bino love the write ups :aok
Looking at the points after each frame it appears to have been a decisive AXIS victory all around so a BIG :salute to the bad guys is in order.
Setup, squad division or both may need a bit of an adjustment for the next time we fly this scenario.
It was a fun scenario however. Long live the BOB scenario's!!
Glad you had fun, sir! :salute
I still think the relatively low squad turnout was the Allies' biggest problem. They never got close to the intended 55% / 45% numbers split of the design.
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Perd,
My Squad division reference was to which squads and how they get divided between AXIS and ALLIED. If you look at how the squads were divided up the ALLIES had many more squads than did the AXIS. Verses the AXIS with lesser and larger squads. Now from a numbers stand point the ALLIES still had a advantage when totaling total force structure (pilots). But the real difference comes in planning and controlling an operation. If only 2 or 3 squads plan and coordinate a mission they tend to do better than 5-6 squads trying to coordinate their efforts using the same numbers of pilots. And generally speaking; planning, control and most importantly comm's will beat shear numbers in a even meeting engagement.
The CM's are great about giving squads the sides that they request and I get that. But this situation comes up every now and then and I think it did this time. As an example in Frame 2 my squad along with 5 others defended A18. When 6 squads have to coordinate its just not as easy as 3 with the same number of pilots and flying in larger squad formations. In that engagement the ALLIES fought with a significant numerical advantage and still got our collective butts handed to us. And the AXIS loses were fairly light. The AXIS squads had a very well planned and coordinated attack profile. The ALLIES had to work to get 6 squads converging at the same time which didn't happen. We hit in pretty much 2 lesser waves. So the numerical advantage was eliminated and the ALLIED attack came in not as well coordinated so the AXIS Strike Package fought in nearly equal numbers. Plainly said we lost this one. And squad size and numbers played a part in it. And this happened in Frame's 1 and 3 as well in some spots.
And Dr. Bino is correct, the AXIS had a much better turn out squad for squad meeting mins and max's and that was a significant factor as well.
Not complaining either. I had a great time and so did the rest of the 325th VFG. I really enjoy the BOB setups because the plane sets are so closely matched. My comments are always aimed at trying to improve what we are doing with our Friday nights.
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My Squad division reference was to which squads and how they get divided between AXIS and ALLIED. If you look at how the squads were divided up the ALLIES had many more squads than did the AXIS. Verses the AXIS with lesser and larger squads
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Interesting observations, Viper. When I did the side split, my primary focus was on giving as many squads as possible the side assignment they requested. But it seems there's never a perfect match-up between squad requests and design requirements. For example, this FSO was the first one in a very, *very* long time that had more squads requesting Axis than Allies. Normally what we do is first grant all of the - relatively few - Axis side requests, and then assign squads to Axis who have not recently taken a turn at flying Axis. This time around was a little different: I assigned the "usual" Axis squads to Axis, and then gave squads the side they requested based on how often (or not) they had recently gotten what they had requested. I'll certainly try to include squad size in the decision matrix next time, but honestly, it might not be easy to do. We've always tried to give the squads what they asked for, as often as we can.
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Perd,
My Squad division reference was to which squads and how they get divided between AXIS and ALLIED. If you look at how the squads were divided up the ALLIES had many more squads than did the AXIS. Verses the AXIS with lesser and larger squads. Now from a numbers stand point the ALLIES still had a advantage when totaling total force structure (pilots). But the real difference comes in planning and controlling an operation. If only 2 or 3 squads plan and coordinate a mission they tend to do better than 5-6 squads trying to coordinate their efforts using the same numbers of pilots. And generally speaking; planning, control and most importantly comm's will beat shear numbers in a even meeting engagement.
The CM's are great about giving squads the sides that they request and I get that. But this situation comes up every now and then and I think it did this time. As an example in Frame 2 my squad along with 5 others defended A18. When 6 squads have to coordinate its just not as easy as 3 with the same number of pilots and flying in larger squad formations. In that engagement the ALLIES fought with a significant numerical advantage and still got our collective butts handed to us. And the AXIS loses were fairly light. The AXIS squads had a very well planned and coordinated attack profile. The ALLIES had to work to get 6 squads converging at the same time which didn't happen. We hit in pretty much 2 lesser waves. So the numerical advantage was eliminated and the ALLIED attack came in not as well coordinated so the AXIS Strike Package fought in nearly equal numbers. Plainly said we lost this one. And squad size and numbers played a part in it. And this happened in Frame's 1 and 3 as well in some spots.
And Dr. Bino is correct, the AXIS had a much better turn out squad for squad meeting mins and max's and that was a significant factor as well.
Not complaining either. I had a great time and so did the rest of the 325th VFG. I really enjoy the BOB setups because the plane sets are so closely matched. My comments are always aimed at trying to improve what we are doing with our Friday nights.
those are some good observations. i think that something that can be done to alleviate that problem, would be to form some of the smaller squadrons into wings. this could helped coordination in defense, facilitating all of the squads working together much easier.
i need to add a disclaimer.......in no way does that mean i think any CiC's are doing a bad job. i'm glad as hell that they take the effort and time to do what they do so we can have our cartoon battles.
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I consider the frames as being CiC vs. CiC with a typical 50/50 split on pilots and each having similar min/max airframes to fly and objectives such as defend 3, attack 3. In situations like this you would think that each CiC would get the same number of small, medium, and large squads to work with. Squads would then compete with other squads of the same size for side preference. Of course this is dependent on a 50/50 split and there being an even number of each size to spit evenly.
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Gotcha. I thought you meant separating some squads from others.
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I consider the frames as being CiC vs. CiC with a typical 50/50 split on pilots and each having similar min/max airframes to fly and objectives such as defend 3, attack 3. In situations like this you would think that each CiC would get the same number of small, medium, and large squads to work with. Squads would then compete with other squads of the same size for side preference. Of course this is dependent on a 50/50 split and there being an even number of each size to spit evenly.
Are you asking that the relative sizes of squads should trump their expressed side preference? I can't see *that* making too many people happy.
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Are you asking that the relative sizes of squads should trump their expressed side preference? I can't see *that* making too many people happy.
So are you saying that in order to make the most people happy, the larger squads get preferential treatment on side preference because they have more people? I'm not being mean here but just trying to give you another way of looking at the way sides are split up. Viper61 was pointing out that it is easier to coordinate a single large squad then three small squads. So, yes, I'm suggesting if two larger squads (assuming there are only two in FSO) are requesting to fly on the same side, the squad that has flown on that side the least should get their preference.
As an example let's say there are 300 players, the split will be 50/50, and all squads are asking to fly for side B. Putting all the larger squads on side B will not make more people happy. With the 50/50 split, there will still be 150 people not happy flying for side A no matter what size squad they are in. Therefore you might as well make the squad size distribution the same for both sides.
Is the extra effort to balance squad sizes between the sides worth it? I really can't say. Things have been working the same way for years and everything gets rolled up into the fog of war anyway.
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So are you saying that in order to make the most people happy, the larger squads get preferential treatment on side preference because they have more people?
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Not at all. Squad size simply does not enter into the calculations, as they now stand. The only squads who get "preferential treatment" are those who have not recently gotten their requested side assignment.
And historically, we see *lots* more requests for the Allies than we see for Axis. "Leaning Into France" was very different in that we had far more Axis requests than normal.
MachNix, thanks very much this. It forces me to look at the side split choices in a new way. :salute
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Good back and forth guys :)
And like I said i had a ball in this scenario set up. BOB's are the best.
Bino apprecate the set ups and scenario's keep'em coming :salute
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Good topic and discussion, Viper61. I would have to say that I'm not seeing a problem for bino or anyone else when it come to assigning squads and numbers. It doesn't matter if you have 1 squad of 14 or 2 squads of 7. That comes in the planning, coordination and communication. Even a large squad has to talk to other squads, CiC and bombers if they are escorting. They also have to keep track of where others are especially escorting or to make sure a gap is not covered. Not only that but larger squads are harder to keep members in formation and contact. I've experienced squads of 3 to 17 and I'll take the smaller number any day. It comes down to how they are assigned. Just because you have multiple squads of smaller numbers doesn't mean they can't take off from the same field and fly in formation together on the same assignment. In fact the larger squads make themselves into smaller squads for altitude, area coverage or engagements. Besides I've been in battles where just when you think you've gotten through 1 fight you get hit by another squad. Oddly it seems to happen more in PAC then Europe. I see that as an advantage not a disadvantage. Depends on what the pilots do in each squad. Plus if you need 6 squads in 1 place then plan accordingly. CM's have it hard enough without adding something to the formula. All that counts are total numbers. It's up to CiC and squad leaders to make it work. Tactics. Not the responsibility of the CM's. :salute
Perd,
My Squad division reference was to which squads and how they get divided between AXIS and ALLIED. If you look at how the squads were divided up the ALLIES had many more squads than did the AXIS. Verses the AXIS with lesser and larger squads. Now from a numbers stand point the ALLIES still had a advantage when totaling total force structure (pilots). But the real difference comes in planning and controlling an operation. If only 2 or 3 squads plan and coordinate a mission they tend to do better than 5-6 squads trying to coordinate their efforts using the same numbers of pilots. And generally speaking; planning, control and most importantly comm's will beat shear numbers in a even meeting engagement.
The CM's are great about giving squads the sides that they request and I get that. But this situation comes up every now and then and I think it did this time. As an example in Frame 2 my squad along with 5 others defended A18. When 6 squads have to coordinate its just not as easy as 3 with the same number of pilots and flying in larger squad formations. In that engagement the ALLIES fought with a significant numerical advantage and still got our collective butts handed to us. And the AXIS loses were fairly light. The AXIS squads had a very well planned and coordinated attack profile. The ALLIES had to work to get 6 squads converging at the same time which didn't happen. We hit in pretty much 2 lesser waves. So the numerical advantage was eliminated and the ALLIED attack came in not as well coordinated so the AXIS Strike Package fought in nearly equal numbers. Plainly said we lost this one. And squad size and numbers played a part in it. And this happened in Frame's 1 and 3 as well in some spots.
And Dr. Bino is correct, the AXIS had a much better turn out squad for squad meeting mins and max's and that was a significant factor as well.
Not complaining either. I had a great time and so did the rest of the 325th VFG. I really enjoy the BOB setups because the plane sets are so closely matched. My comments are always aimed at trying to improve what we are doing with our Friday nights.
Edited for spelling