Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on October 18, 2012, 12:01:50 PM
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Guys,
I remember talking to a WWII B-17 vet at an airshow and he mentioned that the Germans figured out how dangerous it was to attack a B-17 from the six so they started attacking them from the front (head on etc.). The results I get when trying this in AH are very sparse.
1. In AH, which angle of attack do you find most effective in attacking bomber formations AND living using fighter planes?
2. Can you share any other pertinent info on attacking bomber formations (planes, weapons etc.) in AH using planes?
Thanks for sharing,
Slade :salute
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Guys,
1. In AH, which angle of attack do you find most effective in attacking bomber formations AND living using fighter planes?
Overhead attack.
ack-ack
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From Above and off to the side.
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front quarter, ideally 20-30deg high and off :aok
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In AH you're flying 2x faster than they did in WW2, so it's much harder to make a head-on attack. Otherwise it was infinitely easier to overtake, reposition, and HO a bomber multiple times in 1 engagement in WW2, than it is to do it in AH.
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In AH you're flying 2x faster than they did in WW2, so it's much harder to make a head-on attack. Otherwise it was infinitely easier to overtake, reposition, and HO a bomber multiple times in 1 engagement in WW2, than it is to do it in AH.
Faster yes, but not that much faster. B-17s cruised at 180-200mph in reality. In AH they go at full throttle and do about 280-300mph.
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Their cruising speed was often less than that. Especially on longer missions where leaner cruise settings were required. People in this game overestimate how fast bombers in WW2 flew.
I tell you what: Take a B17 up to 25k (higher end of average alt for them) with full fuel and 6k bombs. Reduce to max cruise. See how fast you fly. I don't mean pull the throttle back a few inches to stay in formation with friends. I mean max cruise on the E6B.
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Krusty.......... at 25k, the 180mph TAS is around 120mph IAS... how they could go any slower withouth falling down??
Maybe its my feeble brain, but i just cant get it.
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They weren't fast. Their stall speed was well below 120. Far from falling out of the sky. Now you know why they often flew around 20k. The highest parts of the bomber stream flew up to 25k and in rarer cases pushed 28k, but often the lowest portions were flying at 16k to 18k.
Try duplicating the max cruise power settings, which were used in actual combat and posted in the pilot handbooks. See how fast that gets you in game. Assuming HTC models the air densities properly, the drag of the airframe, the weight, the angle of attack, etc... Most folks seem to agree they do. Try replicating a bit of history, and see how fast you get to the target.
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Guys,
I remember talking to a WWII B-17 vet at an airshow and he mentioned that the Germans figured out how dangerous it was to attack a B-17 from the six so they started attacking them from the front (head on etc.). The results I get when trying this in AH are very sparse.
1. In AH, which angle of attack do you find most effective in attacking bomber formations AND living using fighter planes?
2. Can you share any other pertinent info on attacking bomber formations (planes, weapons etc.) in AH using planes?
Thanks for sharing,
Slade :salute
One of my favorite attacks is from about 10-20 degrees off to either side of the bomber's nose, and also about 10-20 degrees above his nose. I can often rake him with fire from stem to stern.
Every once in a while I manage to get lined up perfectly on his nose, and then I let fly right at the cockpit, which can yield a PK on the bomber.
If the bomber is empty and racing home, sometimes all I can manage to do is fly lazy eights across his course and make passes on him from alternating sides on his high ten o'clock and high two o'clock. That normally takes from two to four passes to shoot him down.
YMMV
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I tell you what: Take a B17 up to 25k (higher end of average alt for them) with full fuel and 6k bombs. Reduce to max cruise. See how fast you fly. I don't mean pull the throttle back a few inches to stay in formation with friends. I mean max cruise on the E6B.
At 25,000ft with full fuel and a 4,000lb bomb load (load carried to Berlin as I recall) the B-17G in AH is unable to maintain level flight with the E6B's Max Cruise settings of 2100rpm and 31" boost. I abandoned that test when I had 175mph on the dial, a 400fpm decent rate and my stall buffet audio file playing. At the E6B's Normal Power settinsg of 2300rpm and 38" boost I was able to sustain level flight at 209mph. E6B showed a weight of 62840lbs and a range of about 1400 miles.
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Fly a 1-2K over the bomber, and slightly infront. Roll inverted, dive down.
Head-on passes at a slight angle tend to be highly effective as well, if you can get the aiming down. It seems the deflection and high closure rate rattles many gunners.
For guns, I like the 30mm's best. 1-2 well-placed rounds, and you've got a kill. However, .50's will work fine if you've got more than just 4. 4 will do in a pinch, but you'll have to hold down the trigger noticably longer.
20mm's are also great. Still have to concentrate fire on a point, or a specific part at least, but still very easy to use.
Personally, I don't find that the 37mm's offer a big enough increase to justify the reduced ammunition load vs the 30mm's. That and anything mounting 37mm's has inferior preformance compared to a fighter with 30mm's.
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While attacking Lancasters, attack from below since they do not have a ball turret and aim for the engines.
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While attacking Lancasters, attack from below since they do not have a ball turret and aim for the engines.
Just be aware that due to the nature of lag, the Tail gunners downward arc of fire can seem be to be much greater than in "real life". You can happen to be be under the Lancaster, yet still being shot by the tail gunner.
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Just be aware that due to the nature of lag, the Tail gunners downward arc of fire can seem be to be much greater than in "real life". You can happen to be be under the Lancaster, yet still being shot by the tail gunner.
Above and beyond that, the Lancaster's tail gun also has an unusually good down arc.
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I think perhaps too good. I've seen pictures showing how far down the guns can depress, but also where the aiming point is. I think the guns are right but our "view down" is far too generous. Hopefully it gets remodeled along with the Lancaster itself.
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few months ago, during a scenario topgun had 4x Me262s. We basically did scouting and tasked with intercepting the buffs then engaging fighters.
I have a few great films of this, all 4 were doing 10-11clock and 1-2 clock passes on buff formations, some were coming in from 10-9clock or 2-3 clock simply to get a better shot on two lined up.
64x B-26s went down while only one 262 had an engine oil hit.
Certain buffs you can take head on, but you limit how many you can hit, quarter pass you can get a good line target on at least 2.
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Butcher,
when you have 4 pilots, its much easyer to double team the given bomber, minimizing the chance to get hit.
Maybe its me doing it wrong, but attacking a B-17 set killed more of my jets than anything else. Even tho i try to set up my kills carefully, high from the 10-2 direction, stirring the stick a bit til the last mooment...
They are such a deathstar for me.
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It's dangerous to attack a formation of B-17's from the 6 o clock position because your relative speed with respect to the bombers is quite slow. So you appear to crawl up on them and they will proceed to gun your brains out.
The germans had good success with head on attacks because the relative speed is the fighter's speed and the bombers speed combined. The B-17G with its chin turret was developed to counter this tactic.
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My experience is primarily from the point of view of a P38 driver.
I find the biggest factor is getting altitude above the bomber formation. If I have a big altitude advantage, I generally have good success, and my transit through an acceptable firing solution generally has deadly effect, while my transit through the areas where I'm vulnerable is very quick. If I'm clawing for altitude and energy, I am generally forced to spend MUCH more time in those areas where I'm vulnerable, and I generally get killed.
I prefer a diving attack into the bomber's path, head-on from their front, but from much higher up. However, because those bombers are generally moving fast and the dive itself takes several seconds, the angle often changes dramatically, and a straight-on 12:00 high result isn't commonplace for me (and isn't required).
So I would summarize my most successful attack angle as commencing from high up, somewhere in the bomber's forward quarter, but often ending up diving through the middle or rear of the advancing formation.
Some video clips showing successful attacks:
"Ten Brave Men":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dubnqBCppCM
Also the first clip and the last of the four clips here:
http://techvideoreview.com/FlightSimMovies/AcesHigh/MissionMovies/FourClipsFeb2012Full.htm
:salute
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Buffs are just ridiculously good at killing stuff at range in AH, One set of buffs with right gunner regularly kill same amount of fighters a large-scale raid did IRL.
From what i read in axis fighter pilot memoirs, they aimed at rear gunner, I find it very hard to kill individual gunners in here.
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From what i read in axis fighter pilot memoirs, they aimed at rear gunner, I find it very hard to kill individual gunners in here.
From the Luftwaffe gun camera footage I have seen this is a rather absurd claim. They seem more to have kinda aimed at the bomber and sometimes they even hit it. If they thought they were aiming at particular points on the bomber, well, fine, but that seems much like P-47 drivers claiming to bounce rounds off the road to kill Panzers, Panthers and Tigers.
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From the Luftwaffe gun camera footage I have seen this is a rather absurd claim. They seem more to have kinda aimed at the bomber and sometimes they even hit it. If they thought they were aiming at particular points on the bomber, well, fine, but that seems much like P-47 drivers claiming to bounce rounds off the road to kill Panzers, Panthers and Tigers.
How tough is the tail gunner armor? I've put multiple tater's in the tail of bombers and the guns never stop firing. I understand if the tracers are indiscernible from top turret to tail turret in a B17. But I've seen it in Lancs, B25s and B26s. They keep on firing until the whole plane blows up.
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How tough is the tail gunner armor? I've put multiple tater's in the tail of bombers and the guns never stop firing.
They never seem to stop firing. But if you fly buffs frequently, you know how tough the tail gunners armor really is... ;)