Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Grayeagle on October 25, 2012, 11:06:11 AM
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http://www.streetlegaltv.com/tech-stories/engine/breaking-news-chevy-gen-v-small-block-reveal/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=breaking-news-chevy-gen-v-small-block-reveal
(competes for the longest link ever :)
Apparantly the new LT-1 will be in the C7 Vette.. similar displacement to the LS1, 450hp, 450ft lbs torque, completely new motor, doesn't even share most of the bolts.
I wonder what the crate motor versions will be like ..
..and what Nelson Racing Engines will do with them :)
-Frank aka GE
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http://www.streetlegaltv.com/tech-stories/engine/breaking-news-chevy-gen-v-small-block-reveal/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=breaking-news-chevy-gen-v-small-block-reveal
(competes for the longest link ever :)
Apparantly the new LT-1 will be in the C7 Vette.. similar displacement to the LS1, 450hp, 450ft lbs torque, completely new motor, doesn't even share most of the bolts.
I wonder what the crate motor versions will be like ..
..and what Nelson Racing Engines will do with them :)
-Frank aka GE
how much lighter will the c7 be than the current vette?
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The new low slung heads and oiling system is interesting.
We've been talking about this on the camaro boards.
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Please, please, please, don't bring back the optispark :uhoh :lol. I still doubt anything new will have the flexibility of the current LS, but time will tell.
:salute
BigRat
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Please, please, please, don't bring back the optispark :uhoh :lol. I still doubt anything new will have the flexibility of the current LS, but time will tell.
:salute
BigRat
now ya know>? a chevy forum i used to talk on, they couldn't understand why i(a guy that works on this crap for a living) hated/loved that system.
i hated it, 'cause it was/is stupid. i loved it, 'cause i made great money on it.
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Hyper-eutectic pistons, and powdered metal rods .............. :rolleyes:
Odd ball sized valves ........ :rolleyes:
A seven speed manual transmission ................... :rolleyes:
Direct injection ...................... :rolleyes: (because we don't have a puking smiley)
Entirely too much excessively expensive "gee whiz" "trick of the week" Bravo Sierra, making it absurdly expensive, and ludicrously unreliable.
And I've been a Chevrolet guy for decades.
There are so many things they could do so much better.
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I hate my LT1!!!! I been through 3 opti sparks so far and it's down again!!! Thats what Pontiac gets for getting rid of all thier V8's. Chevy engines suck I never had any good luck with them at all!!! Gonna use mine for a boat anchor once I get a real Pontiac engine in my T/A. Butler performance builds Poncho engine that embarrass almost all Chevy V8's, I did say almost. :devil Hope this new "LT1" does better!!!!
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Direct injection is how you pass emissions with enough cam overlap to support big horsepower.
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Powdered metal will not be a problem in my opinion. Sintered metal is used alot in gears.
We have laser cut sheets of it for oddball parts.
The high pressure fuel pump will be cam driven and under the intake. Presumably to cut down on it's noise. Odd place but ok.
Direct injection works great on diesels and you can push a lot of power out of them. :D
Definitely a wait-n-see on this engine.
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i wouldn't call 450hp from a 6.2 liter "big horsepower", considering that the stock 5 liter in the boss302 is 444 this year, and next years will be 450.
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i wouldn't call 450hp from a 6.2 liter "big horsepower", considering that the stock 5 liter in the boss302 is 444 this year, and next years will be 450.
Yup but they say "at least".
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actually, they didn't say "at least", but rather "estimated".
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I dont have a dog in this fight,chev VS ford but this new motor looks to have far too many machined surfaces that will require a gasket and or sillyputty. IMHO it's a leak waiting to happen.
Some of the ideas though I like,direct injection is definitely the way to go. I think we should have more diesels on the road so what do I know anyways..... :rofl
:salute
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I dont have a dog in this fight,chev VS ford but this new motor looks to have far too many machined surfaces that will require a gasket and or sillyputty. IMHO it's a leak waiting to happen.
:salute
kinda like cadillacs? from the factory with coolant sealer in em?
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Direct injection is how you pass emissions with enough cam overlap to support big horsepower.
A. It does not make "big horsepower".
B. With less than 210 degrees duration on both lobes, and 116 lobe separation angle, overlap is not a problem.
C. Direct injection has resulted in massive problems with carbon/sludge build up in the entire intake tract, but especially the lower part of the intake, the intake port in the cylinder head, and the intake valves. It kills performance, and drives emissions thru the roof. I'm actually tasked with this problem as a contract tech for a major OEM.
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Powdered metal will not be a problem in my opinion. Sintered metal is used alot in gears.
We have laser cut sheets of it for oddball parts.
The high pressure fuel pump will be cam driven and under the intake. Presumably to cut down on it's noise. Odd place but ok.
Direct injection works great on diesels and you can push a lot of power out of them. :D
Definitely a wait-n-see on this engine.
Powdered absolutely sucks for connecting rods. The first thing we do with high performance and racing engines is take the powdered metal connecting rods and put them in the nearest scrap metal receptacle.
As I posted above, direct injection on gasoline engines just plain sucks.
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its not a race engine though is it? 85bhp/l or whatever it is, is a pretty good base for a mass production engine with decent economy and service intervals. you could build a reliable 100+bhp/l engine with titanium conrods, forged pistons etc etc but not many would buy one. porsche have been doing it for years but only a very small % of customers want the GT3 where the engine is 1/2 the cost of the car.
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Please, please, please, don't bring back the optispark :uhoh :lol. I still doubt anything new will have the flexibility of the current LS, but time will tell.
The article specifically mentioned that the computer coding will be harder to crack/mod/tune. Thanks Govt Motors. F&&% you very much.
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i wouldn't call 450hp from a 6.2 liter "big horsepower", considering that the stock 5 liter in the boss302 is 444 this year, and next years will be 450.
Yea. Especially since they went out of their way to make it harder to tune for aftermarket mods. Great way to instantly lose to Ford.
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Yea. Especially since they went out of their way to make it harder to tune for aftermarket mods. Great way to instantly lose to Ford.
well, i think ford did the same thing. when they went to the coyote engine, they changed the computers strategy. some tuners didn't know about that, and that's how those engines got the reputation for melting #8 piston.
none of them wants it to be easy to mod these engines.
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The controller Ford sells for the Coyote is pretty flexible. But then you have to be able to find aftermarket parts.
Right now, about the only thing you can get is a blower. The controller is easily configured for that, as long as you have the tools, which is true of anything when you want to mod an engine.
There are a couple of companies working on aftermarket fuel injection systems for the Coyote. Cams are coming as well.
It looks like the Coyote is going to be well represented in the aftermarket. Ford has been aggressively pushing the Coyote, which helps a lot.
On the new GM motor, I find it interesting they provide for a mechanical fuel in the manner they are doing. I am not aware of any mechanical fuel pump that can provide the pressure needed for a cylinder direct injection fuel system. Not sure what the thinking is.
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The controller Ford sells for the Coyote is pretty flexible. But then you have to be able to find aftermarket parts.
Right now, about the only thing you can get is a blower. The controller is easily configured for that, as long as you have the tools, which is true of anything when you want to mod an engine.
There are a couple of companies working on aftermarket fuel injection systems for the Coyote. Cams are coming as well.
It looks like the Coyote is going to be well represented in the aftermarket. Ford has been aggressively pushing the Coyote, which helps a lot.
On the new GM motor, I find it interesting they provide for a mechanical fuel in the manner they are doing. I am not aware of any mechanical fuel pump that can provide the pressure needed for a cylinder direct injection fuel system. Not sure what the thinking is.
cams are here already. i think(but not sure) that other stronger internals are too. there's nitrous kits too. i think it was street driven, nitroused 2013 that ran mid/low 9's at atco, putting a trailered camaro back on its trailer to take the finals of the quick 8 at atco's mustang vs camaro.
could that cam lobe that they labeled as a fuel pump drive have something to do with phasing the injectors? and then still use electric pumps for the high pressure fuel?
i think i owe an apology to ge.......sorry sir. i didn't mean to hijack yer thread.
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its not a race engine though is it? 85bhp/l or whatever it is, is a pretty good base for a mass production engine with decent economy and service intervals. you could build a reliable 100+bhp/l engine with titanium conrods, forged pistons etc etc but not many would buy one. porsche have been doing it for years but only a very small % of customers want the GT3 where the engine is 1/2 the cost of the car.
It is an engine that WILL be raced, and abused. The rods and pistons are a liability. The additional cost of forged rods and pistons is minimal. Especially if you're buying them in mass volume. I not only build race and high performance engines, I also work part time for a tier 1 supplier to most U.S. OEM's (including Nissan and Toyota U.S. plants), and I have a full time job as a quality support tech, meaning I see what screws up on new cars.
Powdered metal rods fail regularly in engines that size at 6000 RPM and over 400HP. It is painfully common. This is supposed to be a Corvette and Camaro high performance engine, the cars sell for at least $32K. They can afford to spend $200 more on the engine. That is about what it would cost them to step up to better parts. In the low volume I buy at, I can move to a forged steel rod for under $200 more, and a forged piston for under $200 as well. At their volume, I'd be surprised if it cost them more than $150 to do it. I know exactly how hard they squeeze their suppliers.
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6.2 litre engine 450bHP... Anyone else think that that is a poor showing for such a high cc?
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I thought GM was bankrupt? :old:
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A. It does not make "big horsepower".
B. With less than 210 degrees duration on both lobes, and 116 lobe separation angle, overlap is not a problem.
C. Direct injection has resulted in massive problems with carbon/sludge build up in the entire intake tract, but especially the lower part of the intake, the intake port in the cylinder head, and the intake valves. It kills performance, and drives emissions thru the roof. I'm actually tasked with this problem as a contract tech for a major OEM.
I'm also a contract tech. and master diagnostic specialist for a major OEM who has been using direct injection for years...........lexus.
So what make do you work with that has direct injection and what models are you talking about?
Do the direct injected cars you work on also have indirect injectors?
Are they using variable valve timing to achieve EGR?
I seem to remember delco and other manufacturers needing to create a product to combat the carbon of many GM, ford, nissan, toyota, and chrysler engines long before any had produced a single direct injection gas engine.
I remember working on early 80s Z cars at the dealership (in the early 80s) with carbon up the intake all the way to the throttle body.
What I am saying is that I don't believe that direct injection is responsible for something that was a problem decades before direct injection engines were released by most all manufacturers.
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I signed an NDA as part of the contract, I'm not going to post any names.
Suffice to say it is a major world wide OE, with a base line and a luxury line. Just this week, we ran a few tests on products to remove the deposits, with varied success. Yes, there is a major difference, and yes, it is a major problem.
Yes, GM developed their top engine cleaner decades ago. Now, even other OE's actually specify GM top engine cleaner for use to remove the deposits direct injection allows to build up. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, one of the TSB's we got the other day during this project was a Toyota TSB where they specified the use of the GM product.
When you stop spraying the back of the intake valve with gasoline blended with detergents, yet you still keep circulating both exhaust gases and blow by into the intake tract, you will have greater and more rapid deposit build up in the intake, in the cylinder head, and on the valves. It is a known problem, which anyone with common sense saw coming.
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I have yet to see you in danger of revealing any trade secrets and I have yet to see a NDA that prevents one from saying who they work for if the discussion is not of that brand's products.
The basic physics of your claim should apply to all GDI engines so we can discuss the engines made by manufacturers other than your employer.
At lexus, they vary valve timing to induce EGR without needing a valve which means you are trading having carbon fill the passages of the egr hardware for having more carbon on the intake tract but that has nothing to do with GDI.
I also used to perform "de-carboning" of 280z cars at the dealership in the early 80s so this is nothing new.
I do agree that the powdered metal rods are not super strong for engines such as the LSA but they are fine for unsupercharged GM engines kept below 7200rpms and 600hp.
I just rebuilt one in a Hennessey V650 cadillac CTS-V and the rods ended up bending slightly rather than breaking when the owner somehow commanded a downshift that overreved the engine.
I also don't like they make the rod and cap as one piece and break it in half at the big end.
We went beyond the forged steel rods to titanium on this corvette that ran near 240mph or faster at kennedy space center last week.
The GT went significantly faster and the news should be out soon enough.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8328/8099757326_471e357bd5_b.jpg)
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i wish i still had the before/after pictures i'd taken of gm and ford engines through my borescope. all kinds of deposits on the backs of the intake valves.
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Best use of that motor so far...
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/03/018-hennessey-venom-gt-chassis-03-opt.jpg)
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hijacking a thread is something I just do not worry about :)
I just post info that intrigues me ..GM is apparantly trying to evolve the LS motor into something better.
Can not always be done, even with actual 'engineers' workin on it :)
Sometimes it seems they take two steps back for one forward, and more often than not a hot rodder knows more of what works and what doesn't.
Sayin it's not a big horsepower motor is interesting.
Compared to what, exactly?
It'll be the base Vette motor it looks like.
What is the base Mustang motor? -evil grin- ..I hear it's a V6?
I think the new boss 302 Mustang is a neat car.
For the money I'd rather have a base Vette ..but ..that's just me.
-Frank aka GE
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hijacking a thread is something I just do not worry about :)
I just post info that intrigues me ..GM is apparantly trying to evolve the LS motor into something better.
Can not always be done, even with actual 'engineers' workin on it :)
Sometimes it seems they take two steps back for one forward, and more often than not a hot rodder knows more of what works and what doesn't.
Sayin it's not a big horsepower motor is interesting.
Compared to what, exactly?
It'll be the base Vette motor it looks like.
What is the base Mustang motor? -evil grin- ..I hear it's a V6?
I think the new boss 302 Mustang is a neat car.
For the money I'd rather have a base Vette ..but ..that's just me.
-Frank aka GE
keeping engineers away from the engnie, and letting hot rodders work on em would produce faster/better results.
the base mustang is a 3.7 liter(i think) v6 rated at 305hp. the bast mustang gt(they're listed differently) is a 5 liter v8 rated at 420. the gt premium is the same engine, just with some cool/groovy stuff added. the boss302, regardless of base or ls is also a 5 liter v8 rated at 450 for the upcoming model.
wouldn't it be nice to see even just that 450hp 5 liter in a ford gt produced for around 60-70 grand? or go balls out with the supercharged 5.8 liter in one.
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Well, 1.2HP per cubic inch is completely underwhelming given all the "tech" the thing is supposed to have.
They screwed up at every turn. it should have been 4.125" x 3.625", with a 6.125" rod. That would have been 388 cubic inches, not 375, and been a lot better layout. It's common knowledge in the high performance business. And with everything they have to work with, it should be around 1.5HP per cubic inch, normally aspirated.
Considering the Corvette recently had forged pistons and titanium rods, it is a step back, and if they wanted to save money, all they had to do was go to forged steel rods (they didn't) and stainless hollow stem valves (which they did).
A solid 10 degrees more duration, and at least 0.050" more lift would be fine considering the LSA. Honestly they could have gone with at least 218 and 0.600" and been just fine, if I can get that to pass with a carburetor and no electronics, without a converter, surely they can do it with all of their "technology".
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Aye CAP Ford could really do a great number on the Ford GT if they offered a few killer small block packages topped with a killer big block.
There really should be a 427 Ford GT ..ideally twin turbo but heck, even a decent twin cam N/A motor to capture the legend.
The twin turbo's would be put on by the aftermarket -evil grin-
And I also agree with yas Virgil .. I understand they want a base daily driver vette motor however ..
..I also agree that this seems a step back and not at all in line with the philosophy of the LT-1 heritage, much less Corvette.
I also remember the '80's though ..when it seemed a race to see just how little hp they could get out of a V8.
The Corvette should demand hot rod engineering first and just say NO to marketing suit dweebs entirely ...but ..that's just me.
I think stepping back in hp is a mistake along with any attempt at reworking the actual design to look more ricer.
(re: transformers unveil of prototype Vette ..it looks like what Nissan would do)
What next .. a bookshelf on the back along with trash can mufflers? -rolls eyes-
People want a ricer they get one .. Vette should always be rice killer not rice wannabe.
-Frank aka GE (just sayin -tm Pasha)
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6.2 litre engine 450bHP... Anyone else think that that is a poor showing for such a high cc?
Anyone not in Europe thinks it looks nice, but v6's with much less displacement are well within that in multiple applications in Europe. I don't follow well enough to know all the reasons, only know they squeeze the power from much smaller engines regularly from the mfg. That is what we should focus on here, but no, how many cupholders can fit is the top priority. Much as they like to poke fun, Detroit is as slow to change as any branch of the government, and almost as imaginative. Can't wait for the next line of lookalike cars to come out. Though that is happening across the pond now too, can't tell a merc from a hyundai sonata now.
Kudos to Ford though, they ARE stepping up to the challenge, the Focus ST (I think) is putting out gret numbers for it's size.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LXYK4rR7Sw&feature=watch-vrec
As I said .. boss 302 is a neat car.
Priced right with the base Vette it looks like.
(puzzled look)
Ya'll know which I'd spend the money on.
-Frank aka GE
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LXYK4rR7Sw&feature=watch-vrec
As I said .. boss 302 is a neat car.
Priced right with the base Vette it looks like.
(puzzled look)
Ya'll know which I'd spend the money on.
-Frank aka GE
pretty decent video....but most of jay's are. the 013 boss looks sooooo much better then the 012's.....if for no other reason than that gaudy, stupid paint combos ford was using on them.
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I am not sure, or have any clue at all, but it seems to me it is a bit early to judge what might be going into the Vette. Has there been an official announcement of what this engine will actually do in a Vette?
I am thinking this is just baseline stuff and the Vette version will get the special treatment. Or it is just some noise to make Ford feel like they do not have to push it any further and then BAMM! Chevy announces a 700HP version of this motor.
Then again, who knows. Maybe there is a Nova in the works and this is the engine it will get. A lot of speculation. However, I cannot see Chevy setting back and letting Ford keep the horse power crown for very long.
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Then again, who knows. Maybe there is a Nova in the works and this is the engine it will get. A lot of speculation. However, I cannot see Chevy setting back and letting Ford keep the horse power crown for very long.
Lots of people think the Chevy SS will get an LS motor, but maybe that motor is also slated for the SS? It's a shame because the LS motors are so trivially modded and lots and lots of chebby owners want a reasonably priced V8 they can tinker with on the cheap. The LS motors sure met that need and I really do think that limiting the ability of owners to fiddle with the motors will drive them to other brands.
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Thoughts Pertaining to Youth, Hot Rodders, and Chevrolet
The Hot Rod movement and interest in things connected with hop-up and speed is still growing. As an indication: the publications devoted to hot rodding and hop-upping, of which some half-dozen have a very large circulation and are distributed nationally, did not exist some six years ago.
From cover to cover, they are full of Fords. This is not surprising that the majority of hot rodders are eating, sleeping, and dreaming modified Fords. They know Ford parts from stern to stern better than Ford people themselves.
A young man buying a magazine for the first time immediately becomes introduced to Ford. It is reasonable to assume that when hot rodders or hot rod-influenced persons buy transportation, they buy Fords. As they progress in age and income, they graduate from jalopies to second-hand Fords, then to new Fords.
Should we consider that it would be desirable to make these youths Chevrolet-minded? I think that we are in a position to carry out a successful attempt. However, there are many factors against us:
1. Loyalty and experience with Ford.
2. Hop-up industry is geared with Ford.
3. Law of numbers: thousands are and will be working on Fords for active competition.
4. Appearance of Ford’s overhead V-8, now one year ahead of us.
When a superior line of GM V-8s appeared, there where remarkably few attempts to develop these, and none too successful. Also, the appearance of the V-8 Chrysler was met with reluctance even though the success of Ardun-Fords conditioned them to the acceptance of Firepower.
This year is the first one in which isolated Chrysler development met with successes. The Bonneville records are divided between Ardun-Fords and Chryslers.
Like all people, hot rodders are attracted by novelty. However, bitter experience has taught them that new development is costly and long, and therefore they are extremely conservative. From my observation, it takes an advanced hot rodder some three years to stumble toward the successful development of a new design. Overhead Fords will be in this stable between 1956 and 1957.
The slide rule potential of our RPO V-8 engine is extremely high, but to let things run their natural course will put us one year behind – and then not too many hot rodders will pick Chevrolet for development. One factor which can largely overcome this handicap would be the availability of ready-engineered parts for higher output.
If the use of the Chevrolet engine would be made easy and the very first attempts would be crowned with success, the appeal of the new RPO V-8 engine will take hold and not have the stigma of expensiveness like the Cadillac or Chrysler, and a swing to Chevrolet may be anticipated. This means the development of a range of special parts – camshafts, valves, springs, manifolds, pistons, and such – should be made available to the public.
To make good in this field, the RPO parts must pertain not only to the engine but to the chassis components as well. In fact, the use of light alloys and brake development, such as composite drums and discs, are already on the agenda of the Research and Development group.
These thoughts are offered for what they are worth: one man’s thinking aloud on the subject.
Signed,
Zora Arkus-Duntov
December 16, 1953
Chevrolet does not currently employ men such as Zora Arkus Duntov in higher placers, nor do they employ men such as Ed Cole. I seriously doubt men of their ilk could get jobs nearly so high. That is what ails Chevrolet. That is why Chevrolet is as it is, and struggles.
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LS modding is easy now, because they're using engine control modules designed for the Australian market. Anyone can buy a $300 programmer and change everything as desired. It makes it easy to destroy an engine accidentally, but it also means that every single change to a motor can be tuned into the controller. That's an awesome capability and it's letting people get stupidly huge horsepower in cars like the Camaro and G8 with traditionally "entry level" mods.
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The GT went significantly faster and the news should be out soon enough.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8328/8099757326_471e357bd5_b.jpg)
283.232 mph. The World Record Holder for the Standing One Mile. Rumor is, 300mph is just around the corner. :cheers:
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Nobody has made the perfect trip at this time.
They either
Lose traction multiple times
Bog badly off the line
Chose the wrong facility (which causes traction issues)
Have the wrong gearing
Have the wrong driver
Using too much boost in each gear.
Once someone get's the perfect trip in the perfectly optimized car on the perfect day at the perfect facility, 300mph in the standing mile will fall.............to a street driven car with full interior and A/C.
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actually, they didn't say "at least", but rather "estimated".
I've read several other write-ups about it.