Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: surfinn on November 04, 2012, 11:54:07 PM
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kill shooter is off in FSO, so perhaps there should be a point penalty assessed to those who shot down a friendly. Example Surfinn shots down carver in the logs. 50 point penalty for shooting a friendly down? Yes I know the ac is worth a point value it should be more if a friendly shots ya down. I think a point penalty would make guys check their fire a little bit when on one con. Just an idea what do you guys think?
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It is up to the squads officers to prevent friendly fire. A deterioration in a squads fighting strength is a punishment.
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There has been point penalties in the past. Most times it is the other side gets the value of the plane shot down. All depends on each admin how they want to handle it.
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I only see a problem when you have a furball flying through bomber formations. Gunners in the bombers do inadvertantly shoot down other friendly planes when in tight formations. I think the loss of friendly planes as a result of bomber gunnery should be penalty enough.
However, when it is fighters, and you have guys desparate to get the kill and are willing to take the shot over a friendly's shoulder, willing to risk shooting down your own, yes, a penalty would be cool. Don't know how that can be tracked in the logs though.
Seems it can only be all or nothing.
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i acidentally shot one of my squaddies in the last bob setup. i was diving on a ju88, and just as i opened up, my squad co flew across in front of me. thankfully i didn't kill him......but i can see how it happens.
that all said, personally, i think that the loss of the plane, the loss of the safe landing bonus, and the loss of any possible kills, or assists that that downed pilot may have scored is punishment enough for friendly fire. that's just my opinion though. it is however a VERY good topic of discussion.
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How is the accidental killing of a Friendlly scored now???? Is there a zero balance?? Are kill points awarded to the person who shot down his teammate??? Or are the points given to the opposition??? Personally, I have been on both ends or the spectrum, been shot down by a Squaddie and also accidently shot a "Same Side Teammate". I think that its a pretty good idea, would probably reduce the numbers killed by Teammates.
<S>
Carver
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Original thought behind this is this.
If in combat you shot down a friendly in RL you would face charges and possibly a courtmartial.
Fso should reflect that by giving the opposing team the points. Or possibly making the entire squad (of the friendly fire killer) points null and void. Bombers would check their fire and fighters wouldn't shot over others shoulders so much I think.
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My one and only team kill in FSO happened as I was trying to clear a enemy P40 off the six of a friendly stuka. I did consider the friendly stuka when I took my shots at the P40 and limited my bursts in an attemp to not hit the stuka. I managed to scare the P40 off and felt pretty good about not damaging the stuka. scores come out and they show I team killed a stuka; I went back and watched the film and it showed ONE bb round from my C202 hit the cockpit/pilot of the stuka I was trying to help and he crashed or bled out while RTB because of that shot.
Do I think that an accident like that should result in a penalty for my side? No. Would I still try to clear the six of a friendly if a situation like that came up and the penalty system you propose were in place? Dunno, but I would like to think so. The real question to consider is this: would it ultimately result in less cooperation and mutual protection between team mates?, and would that ultimately be a good or bad thing for FSO?
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If the friendly shot down already scores as a kill for the other side is good enough. No extra points are needed. I don't think anybody here has shot down a squaddie and hasn't felt bad about it. Being in the front of a chain behind the baddy has it's risks, I normally pull myself out of the way if I'm not real close. It's up to the squads leaders to pull guys out of the line, leave them in and risk getting guys damaged and out of the fight. In essence it's self policing, if the bad guys are killing each other to kill me, yea for me and my side. VF-17 is often more dangerouse to each other then the enemy when assigned bombers :lol
:salute
BigRat
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Original thought behind this is this.
If in combat you shot down a friendly in RL you would face charges and possibly a courtmartial.
Fso should reflect that by giving the opposing team the points. Or possibly making the entire squad (of the friendly fire killer) points null and void. Bombers would check their fire and fighters wouldn't shot over others shoulders so much I think.
Internally, we used to have the "BF Medal" in our squad. A full investigation was conducted and film and photos were used. Then, you get to defend yourself. Photo shop is an aful lot of fun in those situations. My point is, though, I think it depends on the squad and I am sure the squadies that shoot down their own feel bad. G3-MF simply has fun with it at the shooter's expense in our forums. As a MFer. you don't want to be the guy that shoots a Guidmate down... :x
Still a great topic for discussion.
:cheers:
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One of the great things about FSO is that everybody takes it very seriously, yes we all clown around at times and enjoy ourselves. But 99.9% of the pilots that fly in FSO try to fly this with as much realism as possible and don't intentionally shoot at friendly's to either get a kill or cause they don't like that person. That"s one reason there is a rule for no walk ons.
Even if it is a game, it is still combat and friendly fire does accur. Unless it can be proven that it was done maliciously then I can't ever see deducting points from something that happend in R/L combat. In R/L they may have looked into accidental friendly fire, but I doubt anybody was ever courtmartialed for it.
Raz299
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Ya i got to disagree with that. They would have been brought up on charges, and or after a investigation at least been reassigned to a desk, loss of rank, etc. As far as the realism goes I don't ever remember a gun cam showing tracers from three other ac, shooting over the primary ac engaged with the target trying to get the kill. Kinda hard to point 6 50cals at your buddy. You are right that most try to make it real and no one wants to shot a team member down. Still think it should be tallied for the opposite side for at least double what the points of said ac was worth.
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kill shooter is off in FSO, so perhaps there should be a point penalty assessed to those who shot down a friendly. Example Surfinn shots down carver in the logs. 50 point penalty for shooting a friendly down? Yes I know the ac is worth a point value it should be more if a friendly shots ya down. I think a point penalty would make guys check their fire a little bit when on one con. Just an idea what do you guys think?
In "Piece of Cake", one of the pilots in Hornet Squadron accidentally shoots down another RAF plane. Squadron Leader Rex orders the shooter to fly over to the base of that friendly and go apologize to that squadron's CO, saying something like, "it happened all the time in the last war."
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Id rather see KS on. If its on for a reason in the MA, the FSO is no different. No matter what penalty shot of self damage will make people think before pulling the trigger.
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Id rather see KS on. If its on for a reason in the MA, the FSO is no different. No matter what penalty shot of self damage will make people think before pulling the trigger.
that is MA thinking.
In FSO, it is not 'people' but 'squads of people' and if someone repeatedly shoots friendlies down, then I am sure the 'squad' and the 'side' would both be keen to have a chat. . .
if it is not broken, and it is not, then don't fix it. . .
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Id rather see KS on. If its on for a reason in the MA, the FSO is no different. No matter what penalty shot of self damage will make people think before pulling the trigger.
the FSO is VERY different.
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the FSO is VERY different.
Completely agree. FSO is in a breed of its own.
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Ya I think I know what FSO is thanks. Thing is people, good people, longtime friends still screw up and pop a friendly. That "talk" is to do what.. threaten an old friend that he cant participate? Ya ok.
I took hits last night from someone outside the squad. Luckily they werent fatal. I dont want to spend my time coming here and have it wasted by someone else. If I Fup fine, but its me, not some over eager stranger, or a good bud that did it.
How you think that having KS on would ruin the event is beyond me.
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How is the accidental killing of a Friendlly scored now???? Is there a zero balance?? Are kill points awarded to the person who shot down his teammate??? Or are the points given to the opposition???
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When I see a "friendly fire" death in the logs, I score it as an all-around zero: zero points to the friendly who did the shooting, and zero points to the enemy team (which didn't earn that kill).
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Thanks for the explaination Bino, good to know.
<S>
Carver
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When I see a "friendly fire" death in the logs, I score it as an all-around zero: zero points to the friendly who did the shooting, and zero points to the enemy team (which didn't earn that kill).
:aok
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When I see a "friendly fire" death in the logs, I score it as an all-around zero: zero points to the friendly who did the shooting, and zero points to the enemy team (which didn't earn that kill).
Ya that's not acceptable. Each aircraft is worth a certain point value. If ya got 5 on your 6 and two shoot down their own ac trying to shot you down then ya, you earned the points. If ya launch with 100 ac 50 were shot down then that should be at the very least 50 air craft scored for the opposite team. Double at the very least to the opposing team if a aircraft is lost to friendly fire.
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The value of the aircraft has two sides: what it is worth and what it earns. The value the aircraft is worth is the points the bad guys get if they shoot it down. (Hopefully the friendly is not awarded these points.) Any aircraft that is lost for any reason -- this includes discos -- stops earning points such as the end of frame landing bonus if one is used. You do not have to give the bad guys points to penalize the other side for the friendly shoot down; the future points the lost aircraft might have earned, or prevented, is the penalty.
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I disagree. I've had several incidents where Ive gotten assist on enemy ac only to look at the logs and find out the a friendly of his own team got credit for the kill after i made him go poof. To score that as a zero is gamy to the extream. The only fix to this is double points awarded to the opposite team. Otherwise I can see guys deep in territory saying I'm not gonna RTB shoot me down so there is no point deduction.
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Watch your back.
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I disagree. I've had several incidents where Ive gotten assist on enemy ac only to look at the logs and find out the a friendly of his own team got credit for the kill after i made him go poof. To score that as a zero is gamy to the extream. The only fix to this is double points awarded to the opposite team. Otherwise I can see guys deep in territory saying I'm not gonna RTB shoot me down so there is no point deduction.
Any chance you've got film or screenshots of this?
i ask only because i've not seen what you're describing before. also i might change how i score them on my sets. as it is now, i score them the same way bino does.
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Its in the logs cap. Its rare but it happens. But i got to ask why would ya have x amount of points lift off and some aren't scored? You lift 100 fighters off they should all be scored for either the enemy or as a safe landing bonus. This whole ya didn't earn it thing is bull. If you made a guy shot down one of the other 5 on your 6 then the allies earned the price of that ac.
But no I dont have a sceen shot of it cap. But it is in the logs with helped so and so shot down NAME. You look it up and you helped a enemy shot his own guy down. I have to assume that its like the MA where a ac can suffer x ammount of damage from a attacker, he looked whole to you when ya shot him down, yet you get the assist.
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Its in the logs cap. Its rare but it happens. But i got to ask why would ya have x amount of points lift off and some aren't scored? You lift 100 fighters off they should all be scored for either the enemy or as a safe landing bonus. This whole ya didn't earn it thing is bull. If you made a guy shot down one of the other 5 on your 6 then the allies earned the price of that ac.
Hwhat? :rofl
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As a member of one of the notorious gangers in the game sukov :rofl I can see why you would be intimidated by this idea. :neener:
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Here is why this needs to be changed in my oppinion. I have thought about this for a few days and I think there should be a penalty awarded to the opposition, and one that is worth more then the value of the plane. Right now it is scored as Zero, what's being overlooked is that the player who was shot down by his team mate may get shot down by the enemy later if he hadnt been mistakenly killed by his own side. Therefore actually potentially penalizing the opposition of his plane value. If I up my squad of 5 and shoot down 4 of them, those are points taken away from the total. Opposition gets none, we lose none. However................... later in the frame those who were shot down by me may have been killed by the enemy. Potential points taken away=oppostion penalized. I think points of the plane flown + half of the value of that plane would be a fair penalty. My other point in this argument is if there is no penalty and its scored as nil what's the point of having killshooter off. Keep it on and only penalize the shooter.
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...what's the point of having killshooter off...
I was always under the impression that having KillShooter OFF had nothing whatever to do with scoring points, but that the point was this: you have to be careful.
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Dont get me wrong Bino, Im all for Killshooter off, . My point was, if there is no penalty then it may as well be on, then at least the shooter is the only one affected.
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As a member of one of the notorious gangers in the game sukov :rofl I can see why you would be intimidated by this idea. :neener:
He wasn't questioning your idea, but your poor English skills.
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The scoring of friendly-fire deaths is ultimately up to each admin who designs/scores their event. Speaking as a player, I think it would be fair for friendly-fire deaths to award the aircraft's points to the enemy. That should be the incentive to be careful when shooting.
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If I up my squad of 5 and shoot down 4 of them, those are points taken away from the total. Opposition gets none, we lose none. However................... later in the frame those who were shot down by me may have been killed by the enemy. Potential points taken away=oppostion penalized.
By the statement above you are saying that the other 4 guys on your squad are just cannon fodder for the enemy and have absolutely no chance of scoring any points on their own. They don't even have the ability to land successfully to collect a landing bonus if there was one. If you feel you have a better chance engaging an enemy squad of five solo then with the other four on your squad, then yes maybe a penalty should be given since the other four are such a handicap, and you shooting them yourself would be considered cheating. But I'm not sure that is what you meant to say.
Also consider that both sides see about the same number of friendly fire incidents, and the effort of assessing and assigning penalties may not be worth it.
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By the statement above you are saying that the other 4 guys on your squad are just cannon fodder for the enemy and have absolutely no chance of scoring any points on their own. They don't even have the ability to land successfully to collect a landing bonus if there was one. If you feel you have a better chance engaging an enemy squad of five solo then with the other four on your squad, then yes maybe a penalty should be given since the other four are such a handicap, and you shooting them yourself would be considered cheating. But I'm not sure that is what you meant to say.
Also consider that both sides see about the same number of friendly fire incidents, and the effort of assessing and assigning penalties may not be worth it.
Is this considered cheating now??? Im sure it goes aganst the "spirit" of FSO (This is a slippery slope issue, so perhaps the penalty would discourage it from happening often)
It may be worth the effort to assess and assign the penalties. Its a point based game and who knows, maybe those points would decide the frame.
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Was not your reason for shooting your own squad down to deny the enemy the points for shooting them down themselves, and therefore a penalty should be given? Apparently the amount of points the others in your squad could have earned is insufficient incentive for you not to kill them. Well, you know the guys in your squad better then I do so I can not deny your logic. :cheers:
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Was not your reason for shooting your own squad down to deny the enemy the points for shooting them down themselves, and therefore a penalty should be given? Apparently the amount of points the others in your squad could have earned is insufficient incentive for you not to kill them. Well, you know the guys in your squad better then I do so I can not deny your logic. :cheers:
Really I do not think this is a problem.
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I vote no to assessing points on this issue. Don't forget you don't have to shoot the AC down to be assessed the kill. Example a new guy lets say on the younger side sprays and prays in a close box formation and hits but doesn't really do much damage to the bombers around him and then enemy fighters show up and finish the job. It is likely that that gunner would get some or most of the kills even through he didn't shoot them down. We have all been puzzled at times about how the game scores a kill and to who even though you expend all your ammo into a AC, but done after someone else has fired first.
Leave the "game" alone and enjoy the funny things when they happen. Like the night a guy in my squads upped on the runway at mission launch at the same time 3 other squads all launched and his trigger was stuck and he opened up and killed about 20 AC. Had the most kills that night in the logs, but never lived it down internally. :rofl
Keep the "game" simple and we'll all have more fun. <S>
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ya lots of :ahand from those who think they are going to be negatively affected by this idea. Cofofly said it best I think. :cheers: Oh and it is easy to score, I think viper one way or the other. Heck most of ya didn't even know that the ac shot down by a friendly was scored as a Zero until this post :rofl