Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CAP1 on November 05, 2012, 08:43:11 AM
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with a 3.8 liter.
about a month ago, the guy calls me. his son is at school down in maryland with the van. it's got a cel on, sometimes flashing, but driving almost ok.....rough sometimes. he has the kid call me, and he explains exactly what's happening, which i tell him is a simple misfire. he asks me if he can drive it all the way back to here. i tell him he can, but he might want to look into repairing it down there, to avoid possible damage to the cats from the raw fuel being dumped.
he has it scanned, and calls me back with the codes.......p0300, and p0301. i explain what those codes are, and that it needs to be looked at to verify the cause of the misfire, but most likely is a simple plug swap, as the ignition wires were only 2 years old.
hadn't heard from them about that van till this past thursday. the kid took it to a goodyear down there :bhead and they proceeded to rake him over the coals to the tune of almost $800. when i saw the list, most of it was unnecessary. but the cel had come back on, with p0301. they took it to a goodyear up here, due to warranty, and they told them that they needed to take the car to a ford dealer for a computer reprogramming :bhead :bhead for this code.
they took it to the ford dealer right up the street from me. they ran tests on it, and tried telling them it may need an engine, as #1 was 7% low, and #2 was 2% low. i asked him if they told him what the compression pressures were, and he said no. he called them back, and they never even RAN a compression test. :bhead :bhead :bhead they did the cylinder balance test through the scanner, which i've never found anything with. he asked me to look at it, so i did.
first thing i did, was run compression test. all cylinders were 125 to 150psi cranking, and at that point, i felt no need to do a running compression test. i did however find and fix his p0301 problem.
anyone wanna guess what it was?
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One of these, or perhaps just reset and see if it pops up again.
Faulty spark plug or wire
Faulty coil (pack)
Faulty oxygen sensor(s)
Faulty fuel injector
Burned exhaust valve
Faulty catalytic converter(s)
Running out of fuel
Poor compression
Defective computer
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Global Warming?
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Cracked ceramic on the spark plug
High plug resistance
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One of these, or perhaps just reset and see if it pops up again.
Faulty spark plug or wire all new
Faulty coil (pack) new
Faulty oxygen sensor(s) can't cause a single cylinder misfire
Faulty fuel injector i suspected this to begin with
Burned exhaust valve would've lowered compression
Faulty catalytic converter(s) can't cause single cylinder misfire
Running out of fuel would've caused random misfire
Poor compression all was good
Defective computer checked into this, but not very common on fords
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I'll take a stab and it just merely being a plug wire loose on either the plug or "distributer" or whatever that is called now. I know on some of our older farm equipment vibration may make them loose.
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Cracked ceramic on the spark plug
High plug resistance
^^^ This and possible carbon tracking on plug. (Edit: I see new plugs and wires installed) I've also seen a leaf getting on the MAF sensor. Check the intake and air filter. Also I've seen faulty intake gaskets mostly on GM though letting coolant in. Misfire would only occur at startup until coolant burnt out of cylinder. Inspection of the old plugs is critical to Identifying problem.
I read some blogs and a reoccing problem is with the EGR ports being clogged on that engine. Why engineers think putting dirty exhaust gas back into a motor is good I'll never know.
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I HAD ACTUALLY suspected that they may have cracked a plug during install, considering that the back plugs are a pain in the butt. it wasn't that easy. i'd also though intake, as those 3.8 fords were common to have upper plenum leaks. i'll post what the problem was when i sit down for lunch today.
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It's problem was that it didn't have the nissan engine in it like the villager.
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Low headlamp fluid or sticking EGR?
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It's problem was that it didn't have the nissan engine in it like the villager.
no, that was/is its blessing. :devil
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Low headlamp fluid or sticking EGR?
this is closest. it was indeed an egr problem, although not sticking.
while looking at data, and trying to duplicate the misfire, i noted that the dpfe at idle was at .62v. slightly low, but acceptable. as i power-braked, to fool the computer into opening the egr valve, i noted the dpfe voltage at around 1.3v. when it got to this point, i felt a "lean" miss, which is normally an egr opened too far too soon. it almost immediately smoothed out to a steady miss, on #1. disconnected the vacuum supply to the egr, and zero misfire of any type under any condition. i removed the upper plenum, to look at the egr ports in the lower intake. 3 were completely clogged, 2 mostly clogged, and #1 was in perfect condition. THAT was the misfire. what was happening, was that the egr valve was working properly, in how far it was opened, and when it was opened, allowing the proper amount of exhaust gas to be recirculated into the engine.
the ports in the lower intake being clogged, were forcing the exhaust all into the #1 port, thus putting out the flame, and creating the misfire. i removed the egr from the side of the intake, and took a pick, a can of carb. cleaner, and a vacuum cleaner. i chiseled the hard parts of the carbon out of the ports, with the vacuum right there, so the carbon wouldn't drop into the engine. once the hard stuff was out, i took a pipe cleaner, nailed them all with carb cleaner, and the pipe cleaner....then blew shop air through the passages backwards to clear them out. reassembled everything, and she runs like a champ.
what disturbs me, is that the guys at the ford dealer never even took the time to actually put a mechanical compression gauge on this engine, or even do a leakdown test on the #1 cylinder that they were telling this guy was bad. either of those would've shown them that the engine is mechanically sound.
oh yea.....the headlight fluid was ok. :aok
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Wesley Willis wrote a song about the Ford Windstar. Want to hear it? Here it is.
http://youtu.be/PkS7s53VJo4
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Wesley Willis wrote a song about the Ford Windstar. Want to hear it? Here it is.
http://youtu.be/PkS7s53VJo4
i can't get utube to play on the shop puter......is it a mean song? :noid i don't generally like windstars. to be honest, the only mini-vans that have nailed it, are(and i gag when i say this) chrysler products.
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i can't get utube to play on the shop puter......is it a mean song? :noid i don't generally like windstars. to be honest, the only mini-vans that have nailed it, are(and i gag when i say this) chrysler products.
Wesley Willis was a musician that toured back in the 90s. He suffered from severe schitzophrenia. I think he liked Ford Windstars.
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Wesley Willis was a musician that toured back in the 90s. He suffered from severe schitzophrenia. I think he liked Ford Windstars.
hhmm....i think that makes him weirder than a bunch of grown men and women that fly cartoon airp......wait a second!! yep......sounds normal to me. :noid :rofl
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(http://www.derekerdman.com/2/wesley_willis/2/Daren%20Hacker/tray_.jpg)
He was a patriotic man. He also drew his own album artwork and sold many drawings of the same bus stop outside his apartment.
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^ Isn't Wesley Willis the guy that would head butt his fans? I remember a buddy of mine bragging that he got a head butt from him at one of his shows in Morgantown, WV.
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Figured out the problem.........Its a Ford :D :bolt:
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Figured out the problem.........Its a Ford :D :bolt:
it's a windstar. they don't count as real fords. :neener:
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this is closest. it was indeed an egr problem, although not sticking.
while looking at data, and trying to duplicate the misfire, i noted that the dpfe at idle was at .62v. slightly low, but acceptable. as i power-braked, to fool the computer into opening the egr valve, i noted the dpfe voltage at around 1.3v. when it got to this point, i felt a "lean" miss, which is normally an egr opened too far too soon. it almost immediately smoothed out to a steady miss, on #1. disconnected the vacuum supply to the egr, and zero misfire of any type under any condition. i removed the upper plenum, to look at the egr ports in the lower intake. 3 were completely clogged, 2 mostly clogged, and #1 was in perfect condition. THAT was the misfire. what was happening, was that the egr valve was working properly, in how far it was opened, and when it was opened, allowing the proper amount of exhaust gas to be recirculated into the engine.
the ports in the lower intake being clogged, were forcing the exhaust all into the #1 port, thus putting out the flame, and creating the misfire. i removed the egr from the side of the intake, and took a pick, a can of carb. cleaner, and a vacuum cleaner. i chiseled the hard parts of the carbon out of the ports, with the vacuum right there, so the carbon wouldn't drop into the engine. once the hard stuff was out, i took a pipe cleaner, nailed them all with carb cleaner, and the pipe cleaner....then blew shop air through the passages backwards to clear them out. reassembled everything, and she runs like a champ.
what disturbs me, is that the guys at the ford dealer never even took the time to actually put a mechanical compression gauge on this engine, or even do a leakdown test on the #1 cylinder that they were telling this guy was bad. either of those would've shown them that the engine is mechanically sound.
oh yea.....the headlight fluid was ok. :aok
ok I am not a mechanic. in simple terms what was wrong? as I am curious as hell.
semp
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it's a windstar. they don't count as real fords. :neener:
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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ok I am not a mechanic. in simple terms what was wrong? as I am curious as hell.
semp
ok. the egr system reciruculates eshaust gas into the combustion process to lower combustion temps. this reduces nox. the computer opens the valve a specified percentage in order to achieve this. when the valve is opened, the gas is supposed to be evenly distributed between all 6 cylinders through small ports.when i works properly, you'd never know it was there,but with 5 of them plugged, it was all going into a single cylinder. since it is exhaust gas, it can't burn, as there's nothing flammable left in it(for the most part). so when all of it gets shoved into that cylinder, it acts as a suppressant, putting out the fire in the cylinder.
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ok. the egr system reciruculates eshaust gas into the combustion process to lower combustion temps. this reduces nox. the computer opens the valve a specified percentage in order to achieve this. when the valve is opened, the gas is supposed to be evenly distributed between all 6 cylinders through small ports.when i works properly, you'd never know it was there,but with 5 of them plugged, it was all going into a single cylinder. since it is exhaust gas, it can't burn, as there's nothing flammable left in it(for the most part). so when all of it gets shoved into that cylinder, it acts as a suppressant, putting out the fire in the cylinder.
The car is old enough to not have to get smogged, so why didn't you just plug the remaining port on cyl 1 and give the guy an extra few hp to play with? :) Or just plug the EGR tubing with something and re-tune to compensate for not re-circulating exhaust back into the engine for a second try at full combustion. On modern gas the engine without EGR should run just as cleanly as it did brand new with the older formulations...
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The car is old enough to not have to get smogged, so why didn't you just plug the remaining port on cyl 1 and give the guy an extra few hp to play with? :) Or just plug the EGR tubing with something and re-tune to compensate for not re-circulating exhaust back into the engine for a second try at full combustion. On modern gas the engine without EGR should run just as cleanly as it did brand new with the older formulations...
obd2. they don't get smog checked, but they do get computer checked. cel on=fail. any codes=fail. readiness monitors on this year any more than 2 not ready=fail.
also, modern cars will not gain horsepower by disabling the egr system.
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They circled the problem
(http://www.muscularmustangs.com/database/fordlogo1912.jpg)
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They circled the problem
(http://www.muscularmustangs.com/database/fordlogo1912.jpg)
hehehehe.....i can post just as many goofy problems like this one from gm and/or chrysler. in fact, i've got a v6 chrysler coming in on thursday with a p0401. that one'll need the intake off too, as i'm fairly confident that the egr passages in that intake are also clogged.