Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: RotBaron on November 13, 2012, 11:23:34 PM
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Sorry If I haven't searched the threads with the proper phrasing and this is repetitive. If someone with really good links to video/walkthrough/explanations regarding using roll tactics would post them up I'd really appreciate it. I have watched numerous videos on youtube and other places that claim they illustrate rolling scissors etc. really well only to find that the video leaves me often more confused. Specifically, I'm talking about using the roll of the Fw's. It seems every time I try to perform rolling scissors or a low yo-yo I don't achieve the desired result of overshoot. Treading through all the youtube vids is getting frustrating.
Also, if you have your own AH videos that would work great too, as I now have learned how to use the vid viewer that accompanies the game.
Thanks.
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Rolling scissors is a pretty advanced acm,along with other acm rolls,someone just trying to explain it,or watching videos for a newer player may be hard for you to understand.The best thing for you to do is get with a trainer that can talk you threw the manovers. I'm sure one will get to you but if you ever would like i can work with you ,you can just pm me.
Good Luck.
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Greetings,
a low yo-yo will never help you overshooting your opponent, especially not when he is starting nearly from your six. What i liked to use, break flat shortly, then pull up, and with the same rolling momentum, roll back towards the opponent. Unfortunately, i have deleted all my films so cant show it to you. Anyway, if youre planning to overshoot, you have to be slower than the opponent - quasi pull up while rolling - but beware, this can be used against you.
Also, you mentioned, you are trying this in a 190. You must like a challenge : )
190s turn horribly between 160 and 250mph - from when the flaps retract to the first blackout. So your goal must be to arrive from under the opponent but with E and take a killer snapshot on him in the vertical, while opening the flaps in the same time to be able to continue in a vertical rolling scissors. Your plane is able to handle quite a few aircrafts in this way: ponyes, jugs, typhoons are easy, 38s, jaks can be done if the opponent is a bit lesser skilled than you, but with accuracy and a little bit of luck, even spits might fall into your trap.
In that case if this tactic fails, you still have an other option: dive away, til you reach like 350mph. If the opponent is following closely, try the high speed overshoot, chop the throttle, kick the rudder, roll quickly, burn enough E to make him overshoot and take the snapshot. If the opponent stays loose but still following you, try the break-reverse method - it usually works. In that case if the boogey is just staying high or climbing, just run away, he just doesnt worth your time.
Back to the sustained rolling scissors: in any aircraft, but espcially in the 190s, its all about to keep your flaps opened, pointing your nose up as long as possible, performing accurate hammerhead reversals (the 190 really excels in it). A low yo-yo is always a fail in this aircraft. Dont plant illusions, the 190 cant turn - all it can do is the high speed rolling scissors or the slow speed vertical overshoot.
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Think of it this way, the plane with the better turn will win in a drawn out scissors battle, the plane with the better climb/roll will win in the beginning and will eventually be out of E and is forced to disengage or die.
Ex: Spit8 vs 190A5
The 190 when it still has speed will outroll the Spit and may have more than one chance to get a firing solution, if the 190 fails to kill the Spit in that time, eventually, the rolling scissors will get too slow for the 190 to turn with the Spit. The spit can then just either A) rope the 190/take the fight vertical or B) disengage the scissors while the 190 is slow, do a simple flat turn and get on its 6.
Usually, at that point, the 190s I come across dives for the deck and run (or whatever plane it is). If you're in the 190's situation, you could either force an overshoot (drop throttle, roll), or once you get to the point where you can pull it off, do a tailwhip. Depending on the Spit pilot, sometimes it'll work, sometimes not.
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The spit can win the slow rolling scissors, no need to waste time with doing 2 full circles :bhead
Also, using the tailwhip as a last ditch opportunity is a FAIL. Only use the tailwhip in a controlled form.
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The spit can win the slow rolling scissors, no need to waste time with doing 2 full circles :bhead
Also, using the tailwhip as a last ditch opportunity is a FAIL. Only use the tailwhip in a controlled form.
Meh, it works for me :)
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Thanks for the responses. That is a great lot to think about, and also really opens up my eyes to the fact that there was a better and more direct way to ask my question. I think what I should be asking is: I'm in a 190, at 6K, at 290mph, and there is a spit, pony, 38, la, or a yak (my usual culprits) on my 6 what do I do (only one enemy plane)? Just one example there, but that is the base of the situation, you can alter it in any dimension and at the moment the result is almost always the same for me; shot up.
I guess that points out another thing, I really don't understand much about using roll defensively, and have only gathered that it's the best solution for the AH 190's. Maybe I'm going about all of this in the wrong way(s.)
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Thanks for the responses. That is a great lot to think about, and also really opens up my eyes to the fact that there was a better and more direct way to ask my question. I think what I should be asking is: I'm in a 190, at 6K, at 290mph, and there is a spit, pony, 38, la, or a yak (my usual culprits) on my 6 what do I do (only one enemy plane)? Just one example there, but that is the base of the situation, you can alter it in any dimension and at the moment the result is almost always the same for me; shot up.
I guess that points out another thing, I really don't understand much about using roll defensively, and have only gathered that it's the best solution for the AH 190's. Maybe I'm going about all of this in the wrong way(s.)
One more detail is needed, how far away is the enemy plane from your 6? This is where SA (situational awareness) comes in. You not only have to Note the distance but also judge their E state based on what maneuver they just did. What time do you play and what's your callsign? I can do a a session in the TA with you if you like.
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Thanks for the responses. That is a great lot to think about, and also really opens up my eyes to the fact that there was a better and more direct way to ask my question. I think what I should be asking is: I'm in a 190, at 6K, at 290mph, and there is a spit, pony, 38, la, yak (my usual culprits) on my 6 what do I do? Just one example there, but that is the base of the situation, you can alter it in any dimension and at the moment the result is almost always the same for me; shot up.
I guess that points out another thing, I really don't understand much about using roll defensively, and have only gathered that it's the best solution for the AH 190's. Maybe I'm going about all of this in the wrong way(s.)
first you gotta ask yourself....do you want to kill those baddies on your 6...or run from them? or would you be OK with at least fighting them and making it difficult for them to kill you.....maybe getting 1 or 2 before you go down.....
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Thanks for the responses. That is a great lot to think about, and also really opens up my eyes to the fact that there was a better and more direct way to ask my question. I think what I should be asking is: I'm in a 190, at 6K, at 290mph, and there is a spit, pony, 38, la, or a yak (my usual culprits) on my 6 what do I do (only one enemy plane)? Just one example there, but that is the base of the situation, you can alter it in any dimension and at the moment the result is almost always the same for me; shot up.
I guess that points out another thing, I really don't understand much about using roll defensively, and have only gathered that it's the best solution for the AH 190's. Maybe I'm going about all of this in the wrong way(s.)
Get down very low, between the trees, use roll to change direction quickly. Likely half of em will auger behind you, then smile. :devil
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Thanks for the responses. That is a great lot to think about, and also really opens up my eyes to the fact that there was a better and more direct way to ask my question. I think what I should be asking is: I'm in a 190, at 6K, at 290mph, and there is a spit, pony, 38, la, or a yak (my usual culprits) on my 6 what do I do (only one enemy plane)? Just one example there, but that is the base of the situation, you can alter it in any dimension and at the moment the result is almost always the same for me; shot up.
I guess that points out another thing, I really don't understand much about using roll defensively, and have only gathered that it's the best solution for the AH 190's. Maybe I'm going about all of this in the wrong way(s.)
Listen here.
I have explained in my previous post, what to do. Against a pony, you might have a chance to overshoot in that case if he is very close to you. But to the others, you have no real chance, get speed, if they are following, rape your controls and force that damn overshoot, if they arent, extend, get to an equal position and re-engage.
There are no wonders under the sun, the 190 isnt a turnfighter.
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I've spent the last several months almost exclusively in the Fw-190A5 and love it.
In combat all maneuvers are designed to do two things: 1, get the bad guy to over shoot and 2, keep him in front of your guns.
The roll goes with either a low-yoyo or high-yoyo. Yoyos are all about speed. Going low means you point your nose down to pick up speed. Going high means pulling up your nose to drop speed. With the high you have the advantage of 'banking your speed' by converting it to altitude. When you want to cash in that bank deposit you do a low, drop your nose and pick the speed up.
When the bad guy is behind you to get the overshoot you have three options: One, speed differential (you slow down, he speeds past you); two, out turn him; or three, you cause one or both of the first two options by using the roll rate of the plane to get him to either zoom past or turn outside your turn.
If you really want to learn how to use the roll in a fight there are a few birds that are great at it. The king is the Fw-190. The F4U and Spit16 have great roll rates, even the P-47 is pretty good at it. The Zero, P-51, etc are pigs in this area.
A rolling scissors is nothing more then two planes constantly trying to get the overshoot by rolling and turning, then roll back into the bad guy and turn, then roll back into the bad guy and turn. This is where speed differential comes into play, chopping throttle, flaps, even cutting the engine help lower speed so the other guy zooms past you. Some will even drop their landing gear. Watch out for F4Us, they can drop their gear at almost 300knts. It's the best speed brake in the game.
Finding a trainer in the TA would be great. If in the Main Arena and need help ask for it on channel 200. Most sticks will try and help out, the occasional idiot will tell you Alt-f4.
Boo
PS Remember speed is life. And altitude is nothing more then a 'bank for speed' via the low-yoyo.
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Get down very low, between the trees, use roll to change direction quickly. Likely half of em will auger behind you, then smile. :devil
He is looking for acm,not desperation spit flyer moves,go back to your sand box who. :salute
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He is looking for acm,not desperation spit flyer moves,go back to your sand box who. :salute
:frown: :bolt:
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:frown: :bolt:
I'm sorry Mid..you made my smile turn upside down now a feel bad. :uhoh
:D
:salute
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I'm sorry Mid..you made my smile turn upside down now a feel bad. :uhoh
:D
:salute
:) :salute :rock
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What do you do!?
Tailslide! :banana:
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Sorry If I haven't searched the threads with the proper phrasing and this is repetitive. If someone with really good links to video/walkthrough/explanations regarding using roll tactics would post them up I'd really appreciate it. I have watched numerous videos on youtube and other places that claim they illustrate rolling scissors etc. really well only to find that the video leaves me often more confused. Specifically, I'm talking about using the roll of the Fw's. It seems every time I try to perform rolling scissors or a low yo-yo I don't achieve the desired result of overshoot. Treading through all the youtube vids is getting frustrating.
Also, if you have your own AH videos that would work great too, as I now have learned how to use the vid viewer that accompanies the game.
Thanks.
The high roll rate of the FW190 is not a factor in a rolling scissors but it could be an advantage in a flat scissors because the high roll rate lets you change direction faster.
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The high roll rate of the FW190 is not a factor in a rolling scissors but it could be an advantage in a flat scissors because the high roll rate lets you change direction faster.
This ^^^
We've all heard that the FW was highly manuverable but yet it turns very poorly under corner speed! The reason it was considered manuverable was it's ability to point the lift vector at will,try that in an unclipped spit at low speeds and high throttle settings.
There's been plenty said in this thread that I dont agree with but I wont go into that.
Rotbaron,if your able to make the training arena in the evenings look either Bigrat or myself up in there,we're both there most evenings between 9 pm and 11 pm. I'm sure since you're already exploring how to use roll that an hour or so working with a trainer will set you in the right direction.
:salute
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Yes ... find Morfiend and the TA . Fastest way to learn. Hub
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There's been plenty said in this thread that I dont agree with but I wont go into that.
:salute
But i sure wish you would.
:aok
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Thx Hub!
While I may or may not be of much help spending time in the TA and flying your plane to it;s limits is surely the best way to improve. I'm an advocate of using full or near full fuel loads in the training arena,learning to fly a heavy plane at the limits makes flying 1 at 1/2 or 1/4 tank feel like I'm cheating.... :devil.....
You simply cant get enough quality seat time in the mains or DA when you're new so it's always a good idea to practice then put that practice into action. You cant play hockey without learning how to skate first!
:salute
PS: Sunka,I dont want to start a Epeen match in this forum so I wont comment.
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Well all i got to say to new guys is its hard to know who's advice is sound and who's is not...best to look for that training tag i suppose.
:salute
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Thanks for all the input. I'll definitely look in the TA to meet up.
To be a little bit more specific about the D on my 6, it could be from any distance and often there is no chance to outrun or dive because they're already shooting and/or I'm already on the deck. Maybe I'm not managing my Alt very well. Maybe that is a tactic; to get a 190 on the deck? I have found the ability (in some situations) to turn with and even out turn some of these aforementioned fighters.
The one I have found regularly to be the most frustrating is the P38 vs. my 190 A-5. However, I have read that there's not much hope vs. a skilled pilot, unless you can get them to bleed off their E first. The Lightning's ability to cut you down at D1000+ is a little frustrating and even in a Dora I've not been able to out-run them, in that situation they must me managing their E, right?
Anybody with videos illustrating how to use the 190 to the best of its' abilities?
Anybody willing to look at some of my videos and critique?
TIA,
Rot
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:salute
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Thanks for all the input. I'll definitely look in the TA to meet up.
To be a little bit more specific about the D on my 6, it could be from any distance and often there is no chance to outrun or dive because they're already shooting and/or I'm already on the deck. Maybe I'm not managing my Alt very well. Maybe that is a tactic; to get a 190 on the deck? I have found the ability (in some situations) to turn with and even out turn some of these aforementioned fighters.
The one I have found regularly to be the most frustrating is the P38 vs. my 190 A-5. However, I have read that there's not much hope vs. a skilled pilot, unless you can get them to bleed off their E first. The Lightning's ability to cut you down at D1000+ is a little frustrating and even in a Dora I've not been able to out-run them, in that situation they must me managing their E, right?
Anybody with videos illustrating how to use the 190 to the best of its' abilities?
Anybody willing to look at some of my videos and critique?
TIA,
Rot
Sure, post the video.
http://www.mediafire.com/?f7qajkli041y835
My 2 v 1 in a 109G6. Fight begins at 10:00 or 11:00 if I remember correctly. Make sure to check the "use recorded views" when you watch it, so that you can see how to keep your SA up and what to do when an enemy is on your 6.
EDIT: 13:00 actually, before that is just a few skirmishes I had.
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FLS,
the flat scissors is a fail in the 190s, against just like anything, as this aircraft cant really fly slowly, also needs to be in uphill mode only to keep your flaps opened.
True, the high roll rate is an advantage, but the high stall speed is an unmatchable disadvantage in the flat scissors.
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The flat scissors doesn't have to be slow. By reversing faster you can get out of phase with the bandit.
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http://speedy.sh/zbcAp/190d9-0000.ahf (http://speedy.sh/zbcAp/190d9-0000.ahf)
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The high speed rolling scissors is more effective than the high speed flat scissors, theoretically.
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Rolling scissors in a 190A5 is doable for a two turns against a skilled pilot. Unskilled I will go round after round with no worries. I've killed 109s, -51s, etc stall fighting the verticle against noobs. I really enjoy it.
You can normally tell after one turn the skill level on the other side. If they know what they are doing I'll roll with them a second time to try and get a snap shot. Not shot, I drop my nose disengage and reset.
Gotta love those knife fights!
Boo
PS From what I see the learning curve is steep to get to the upper 90th percentile. From there it seems the learning is always taking place.
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Sorry If I haven't searched the threads with the proper phrasing and this is repetitive. If someone with really good links to video/walkthrough/explanations regarding using roll tactics would post them up I'd really appreciate it. I have watched numerous videos on youtube and other places that claim they illustrate rolling scissors etc. really well only to find that the video leaves me often more confused.
Thanks.
Good Evening RotBaron,
I am not sure if you have seen the two (2) threads below that are here in this "Help & Training" forum...... so I figured I should post links to them, just incase you have not seen or found them in your search for help/info....
First, I would recommend working on the "Barrel Roll Defense" maneuver, to defend from a plane attacking you from anywhere in your 5,6,7 o'clock (level to high) view..... one should practice this maneuver continously to become profficient and use it as a stepping stone to advance one's self in their ability to take the next step toward working into the "Rolling Scissors" maneuver , in which , again, I recommend for them to continously practice the rolling scissors to become profficient in utilizing the rolling scissors to win the end game, so to speak
Barrel Roll Defense - Help & Training thread: ( thread was originally titled "Teaching Aid" )
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,173151.0.html
Rolling Scissors (Training Animation) - Help & Training thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,184939.0.html
( Please note: the linked avi files needs to fully load, so give them time to load ( some are in the thread / some are linked )... you can click & watch the linked avi's in a new web browser window or also via Windows Media Player or VLC player , etc.......... or even right click and download to your HD )
NOTE: feel free to comment in these threads if you have any questions, it is ok to post in them even though it might give you a warning that noone has posted to the threads in over 30 days.......
now regarding the "Scissors maneuver or also known as "Flat Scissors", here is a link indirectly related..... although it is originally talking about snap rolls in the F4U, it does have some info on scissors ( flat scissors ) maneuvering
Snap Roll question - F4U - Help & Training thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,183449.0.html
even though these 3 links/threads are talking about or show F4U series of planes, the information is relevant or in some cases parts of the threads are relevant to most all planes in the game.....
Hope this is Helpful, :salute
TC ( Johnny )
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The 190 roll rate is amazing compared to other aircraft in the game. It can roll on it's horizontal axis at will in a perfectly straight line and much faster than any other aircraft. This in itself does little to help you in a defensive situation although it's ability to stay out of plane with your opponent is usefull even when flying a straight line. In this case the 190 bleeds little to no E while every other fighter does. If the bogey on your tail is still far enough away and bites to stay in plane you can use this to slowly bleed his E and possibly escape.
The next best scenario is to use your roll rate to quickly change direction. This is where the flat scissors recommendations come from but don't stay in a flat scissor. Use three dimensions to force the overshoot. Turn minimally after your roll. Remember the opponent burns more E than you in the roll itself but you burn more E than him in the turn regardless of what he's flying. Quick changes in direction with slight turns then repeat until he flys by.
If you really feel compelled to go into a rolling scissors you'll have to use rudder to assist, bleeding tons of E and leaving yourself vulnerable if you misjudge. If you make this decision I'd recommend having plenty of alt to either hold speed (best case) or gather it afterward.
The final resort is to chop throttle and go into a rolling scissor. You might catch your opponent by surprise.
If you have the E advantage you have many more options. In that case I like to take the fight vertical, roll and turn back into my attacker. This can be done with or without flaps depending on the situation.
190's as mentioned are not good stall fighters nor are they good turn fighters and the nuances of effectively utilizing their roll rates are subtle but can be effective.
In the last scenario, DGSII, I forced three P-51's in a row to overshoot in the first frame using my roll advantage (FW190A-8), killing one (should have been two) in a five on one battle before I was overwhelmed. I think it was frame 3 when I held off a P-51 without taking a single hit for what seemed like several minutes while I successfully reached the bomber stream.
190's aren't for the feint hearted. Good luck.
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190's aren't for the feint hearted. Good luck.
Well the Dora is. :old:
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Well the Dora is. :old:
Hey!