Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Stellaris on November 15, 2012, 08:04:25 PM
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Y'know, having the kneeboard pop up and float in front of your face is kinda distracting. How about putting it down where the pilots knees are (or would be, if we had pilot modeled). That way you can just glance down and see whatever you need on your kneeboard.
Same thing with the text/radio buffer. And come to think of it, the damage list and the red R for Record. I'd really like it if these things didn't interrupt the immersivity by floating in your outside view.
The kneeboard at least should be straightforward, just give it a different home position in the aircraft. Those who like it up in front of them could still even pull it up.
Paul
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It is not really a kneeboard, it is instead an interface to be used in the game to control many options not available on a kneeboard. So I guess it's oa kneeboard in name only.
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You are correct, it isn't really a kneeboard, it's an interface brilliantly disguised as a kneeboard. And its disguise would be ever so much more clever if you could look down and see it exactly where you expect to find a kneeboard - ie, on your knee.
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Only bring up the clipboard while you are looking down.
BOING! Another wish granted. :devil
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A good suggestion, but not really a solution. The issue is that the clipboard is fixed to the view, as opposed to the plane. This ruins the immersion, as you've got this disembodied clipboard floating in your field of view - even if you're only looking down when you call it up. It's not that the current clipboard is a bad paradigm - in fact back when everyone had to choose their views on the keyboard I think it probably worked better than forcing a look-down (and another keychord) to see it. However I fly with TrackIR now, and it takes away from the tremendous immersion gain that TrackIR enables. When I fly (in the real sky), I have everything on my own kneeboard, set up for easy access, and I can just glance down as necessary. It's the glance down that I'm looking for here, which is enabled by having the kneeboard fixed to the knee-ish position. The button-push - float around in front of you -button-push model is much less intuitive, and it gets even more immersion disrupting when you have to mouseclick for something and the clipboard is fixed against a moving field of view.
Obviously a simulation can't fully simulate reality and our long-suffering host and developer must choose carefully where to put the programming talent's efforts. However this is a very simple fix, with a large amount of immersion gained in return - just move (or make optional) the home-co-ordinates for the clipboard. Ideally the text buffer and radio controls should be on another kneeboard - but I recognize that this is not something Hitech or the coders could do as easily.
One small step for the coders, one giant leap for immersion.
Paul
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-1
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Due to resolution limits of PCs it wouldn't be readable when on your knee.
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It'd be readable on my screen which is 2560x1600 - but simply having a checkbox to select the home position as either on your knee or stashed beside your seat (or wherever) without otherwise changing the interface behaviour would still allow those running on laptops/CRTs/etc to have it work the way it always has. It's important to maintain backwards capability with older systems, but at the same time you don't want to be chained to 2005's technology.
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if you have a button set to look down then you can also have a button set to bring up the clipboard and quickly put it away. that's what most of use do. if you think about it it's really the same thing.
good thing it's not like in AW when you had the map take the full screen. I got shot down many times while looking at the map and not realizing somebody was shooting at me.
midway
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Well, the whole point is I >don't< have a button set to look down. The old system worked fine when I had to push buttons to steer my head, since the view was always fixed. However now all my looking is done with TrackIR. It's very fluid, intuitive and immersive - as long as I don't have the clipboard pulled up.
Not sure why everyone is throwing up obstacles here - This is one of those rare improvements that comes without a tradeoff. Simply provide a checkbox option in the view menu to set the home position of the kneeboard to either be on the knee or wherever it is in the plane right now. For those who want to bring it up and fly with it in their field of view, they can continue to do so. For those with TrackIR, there is now a more immersive and intuitive option. Were I coding this I'd guesstimate an afternoon to put it together - mostly to make new option look pretty in the menu and set the new co-ords for the planes. Obviously that depends on the details of the code itself, but let's credit HTC with good practice seeing as they've got some experience in the last fifteen years. No cost to the current paradigm, no additional loads, and 4 hours of work? I doubt you'll find many items on this wishlist that offer the same cost/reward ratio.
Paul
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Even at 2560x1600 it probably wouldn't be readable. If it is, that would still be a feature that, I would bet, less than 1% of the players could use. I would guess that 1080p is the most commonly used resolution now.
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stellaris look down on your knee and imagine what size the clipboard would have to be for you to tell the details that you need. your wish doesnt make any sense unless when yo look down you look at the current clipboard that we have.
midway
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Good points both Karnak and Midway - No point in implementing something that won't work right from the word go, so I zoomed the clipboard all the way out, which makes it of about the size it would be in the knee position. I then progressively reduced my display resolution all the way down to 1024x768 and evaluated the readability. Long story short, the kneeboard text is legible at all resolutions, even to my aging eyes. The map display is also fine - though I'll caveat this to say that I usually fly with it zoomed in to show just the closest 4 sectors. If you have the whole map, it gets a bit cluttered. I also have to say, it feels quite natural and intuitive to be looking down for the map exactly where I'd normally have my map.
A couple of points did come up in this admittedly simple test, both mouse-related. One is that the current kneeboard always displays "flat" on the screen, and this is a good thing for mouse clickability. It might awkward for clicking at the 130-or-so angle that it would be in the knee position (or maybe not, but we're all used to the flat surface paradigm for mouse movement). The second is that at this size it takes more precise clicking, which some might find finicky. Both these and any residual readability concerns can be addressed by simply letting players choose plane-relative or view-relative display for the clipboard, with the ability to set the plane-relative co-ordinates as they like. This also takes away a lot of the work in having to set the knee-position for each plane - so it's a win-win.
@Karnak - you also have a good point concerning how much this would be used. However as the game becomes richer, it's inevitable that more and more features will be used by fewer and fewer players. How many pilots use the GUI options to alter the preferred radar colors for friendly and enemy? Yet there the options are, taking up clipboard real estate. How often does anyone actually see anyone's custom nose-art? Yet the custom nose-art code exists, and it's cool to have it. I can't say how many people would use plane-relative kneeboard option (though I think a lot of more advanced pilots will find it useful) However I can say for sure it's a more meaningful and useful option than allowing enemy radar blips show as purple rather than red.
And again, it's available for a very small coding effort, which makes the cost/reward ratio very attractive. Just not having to listen to me go on about it would be worth the effort all on it's own!
Cheers!
Paul
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Good points both Karnak and Midway - No point in implementing something that won't work right from the word go, so I zoomed the clipboard all the way out, which makes it of about the size it would be in the knee position. I then progressively reduced my display resolution all the way down to 1024x768 and evaluated the readability. Long story short, the kneeboard text is legible at all resolutions, even to my aging eyes. The map display is also fine - though I'll caveat this to say that I usually fly with it zoomed in to show just the closest 4 sectors. If you have the whole map, it gets a bit cluttered. I also have to say, it feels quite natural and intuitive to be looking down for the map exactly where I'd normally have my map.
A couple of points did come up in this admittedly simple test, both mouse-related. One is that the current kneeboard always displays "flat" on the screen, and this is a good thing for mouse clickability. It might awkward for clicking at the 130-or-so angle that it would be in the knee position (or maybe not, but we're all used to the flat surface paradigm for mouse movement). The second is that at this size it takes more precise clicking, which some might find finicky. Both these and any residual readability concerns can be addressed by simply letting players choose plane-relative or view-relative display for the clipboard, with the ability to set the plane-relative co-ordinates as they like. This also takes away a lot of the work in having to set the knee-position for each plane - so it's a win-win.
@Karnak - you also have a good point concerning how much this would be used. However as the game becomes richer, it's inevitable that more and more features will be used by fewer and fewer players. How many pilots use the GUI options to alter the preferred radar colors for friendly and enemy? Yet there the options are, taking up clipboard real estate. How often does anyone actually see anyone's custom nose-art? Yet the custom nose-art code exists, and it's cool to have it. I can't say how many people would use plane-relative kneeboard option (though I think a lot of more advanced pilots will find it useful) However I can say for sure it's a more meaningful and useful option than allowing enemy radar blips show as purple rather than red.
And again, it's available for a very small coding effort, which makes the cost/reward ratio very attractive. Just not having to listen to me go on about it would be worth the effort all on it's own!
Cheers!
Paul
I would very much enjoy having this, I have to constantly bring up my clipboard is quite annoying and repetitive. I think having a kneeboard would be very beneficial for those whom use it. Those whom don't, there is always the option to turn ON or OFF.
+1 :aok
:salute
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The clip board is a clever interface metaphor that took me a while to learned to use it effectively. I found it distracting when I first switched from Warbirds 2.7r3 over to AH. Having the clip board visible on your knee when looking down would be a neat trick, but I don't imagine it would add to its usability at all.
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Ahh, I do not believe there are knees in any of our airplanes?
HiTech
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Ahh, I do not believe there are knees in any of our airplanes?
HiTech
:rofl :lol
This is true.
Possibly give us some knees, so we can use a kneeboard? :pray
:salute
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The planes are knee-free. I'm happy to have them stay knee-free. The kneeboard doesn't even have to be in the knee-ish area. I just want to be able to have it show up somewhere plane-relative rather than view-relative and stay there. The knee-ish area would work for this, but (again, not knowing the code) I think the easiest answer would be to give the player a plane-relative option, and let them set the co-ords themselves.
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Ya know, some in-flight magazines might be nice for those long strat missions. :bolt:
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Also nothing is displayed on the map when it is put away.
This is done intentionally for frame rate.
HiTech
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When you spawn on the runway you can put the clipboard in the corner of your monitor and resize it to your preference. When you use it again in flight it will go to the same position and size.
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If we're going for full realism, shouldn't we have Skymall magazine and a fat guy in the aisle seat with a screaming infant right
behind kicking your seat? :lol
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@rino - I'm not looking for the realism so much as the immersion. I just want the kneeboard to stay in one plane-relative place so I can look at it and look away. I find it very un-immersive to have it float around whichever way I look. It feels like it's stuck to my nose.
@Hitech - thanks for the code explanation. If the map doesn't display while its put away, would it be possible to have its taken-out position plane-relative, and user settable? I could also afford a frame rate hit, if that makes it easier.
Cheers!
Paul
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umm I dont think they had kneeboards in WW2 maybe I am wrong
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You are most definitely wrong.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-RCAF-RAF-AIR-NAVIGATION-COMPUTER-KNEEBOARD-/110954074426?nma=true&si=1NseVD96C5Z0FAV5ZvK%2BQNYOWds%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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:aok cool find never knew such a thing existed
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Stel I'm not getting why it's such an obstacle? I mean there's a key bound to it--why not just map that to your stick? It's not an obstacle if it's not up. I have mine in the lower right corner and sized as small as to block as much view as I can stand. It's totally configurable like that. Or as had been suggested if you want, only look at it while looking down. I toggle it all the time and don't see what the problem is with it. Knee board or not--no pilot in combat would be flying around staring at his knees. Not for long anyway. ;) Not getting it.
Would I be close if I were to guess you're flying with a cheapie stick that doesn't have a lot of buttons/hats on it?
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Stellaris, I understand your issue. However a lot of us still don't use TrackIR. Only very recently was I able to upgrade my PC so I can have the 'enhanced terrain' displayed with bump mapping and all. :o
However I can sympathize with the wish, and I don't think implementing it should hinder anyone's ability to play. Already Hi-Tech has had issues with people using the clip-board to block out the sun, which was corrected by making it a no-longer solid object (in that the sun can shine through it now).
I don't have a 'look down' key mapped on my joystick, simply since I seem to only need to look down while setting up for bombing.
I suppose instead of mapping the Esc key to summon/hide the clipboard, it could be set to a new the pilots view (clipboard view?) which would be a sort of zoomed in look at the clipboard. It would keep looking at it until he pressed Esc again (or after a few seconds if you are using the auto-hide function).
Of course this would mean that when you are looking at the clipboard, you're not really looking anywhere else, which I personally think is quite acceptable.
Just don't make it round to account for the E6B! :rofl :rofl
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@Drano - I'm flying with a G940 with more buttons and hats than I can think of functions to do with them. :) I even have a neat little "kneeboard" label on the relevant button.
The issue is the scan. I scan instruments, put my head out of the cockpit, scan left to 6 and up, scan right to 6 and up, bring up the map to check radar, put away the map and repeat. So I'm pushing that damn button constantly. And the map is constantly popping up and popping back. Which is annoying, and even though it only takes a second it is disruptive. So then I just leave the map open. And then when next I scan left to 6 and up and then right to 6 and up the map is following my scan around like it's a carrot on a stick tied to my hat. So then I put it away and don't check radar, which may be fair enough since the radar is a bit of a fudge to compensate for the ground control we don't have. However none of these are graceful ways to use the tool. It costs a huge amount of immersivity.
Having the kneeboard sit in one, plane-relative place would let me put it in part of my instrument scan, and there'd be no issue. I'd also really like the text buffer and radio controls to be set up somewhere plane-relative and unobtrusive, but they're not currently 3D objects so my (non-code knowing) assessment is that'd be harder to implement. Baby steps!
@hazard - I'm spoiled as my system and screen are pretty high-end for work reasons - so a smallish splurge on my stick and my TrackIR and I'm well set up. However one of the things I like best about HTC is their commitment to backwards-compatability. It is an inclusive and community-friendly policy, and as a small company devoted to a single, unique product that's a very positive thing. For years I flew with a mouse on a much less snazzy system, and was glad I could do so and still be competitive. I recognize I'm in the minority in having both TrackIR and a 2560x1600 screen here - and again, when I didn't have that gear, I didn't have this wish. At the same time, the future is coming, these things will one day be cheap and common, so so I think the plane-relative kneeboard is a feature that will become more popular as time goes on, and as people realize that yes - they CAN scan and have that info there WITHOUT even the touch of a button.
Paul
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I guess I'm not being clear enough. I don't understand how it's a disruption if you're making it happen. You toggle the map, right? It isn't doing it by itself. You follow? Maybe checking the map less often is your answer. I know old habits are hard to break. Heck I check the map a lot myself to the point I'm surprised I don't have a problem with that particular position of the hat switch it's mapped to <shrug>. Just don't be gawking at the map at times when you shouldn't be and I think your "problem" will go away. If you're checking the map to find things that should be in visual range that's the wrong tool for the job. That's what ya have TIR for.
Been toggling a map like this mapped to the same button on several generations of CH Pro Throttle in multiple sims for years and years. It's become natural to me so I don't see the disruption. To me a disruption would be lack of a map key. My wider SA would go poof. BTW I don't have TIR at the moment. Still trying to wear out another hat switch on the Fighterstick. :aok
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It's not a disruption to my way of flying and fighting - it's a disruption to the sense of 3D immersion. This isn't to say it isn't a clever interface, it is. In a non-TIR environment it works just fine. However with TIR it looks awkward, and it feels awkward, to me at least. What you're suggesting is just that I work with it the way it is now. I already do that!
And again, I'm not suggesting that there be no map key. I'm just suggesting that there be an option so that your map key can bring up the map to a user-definable, plane-relative, fixed point rather than the current user-defineable, view-relative, floating point. This is a bit of an evolution of my original idea based on the discussion here, which of course is why there's a discussion. We all want the game to be better, after all.
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3 pages over clipboard immersion. (http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/smilies/rolleye0003.gif) (http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/smilies/confused0081.gif) (http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/smilies/fishing.gif)
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I would die of laughter and enjoy the game that much more if an animation plays where you have to fumble through a folded up map that covers the entire cockpit when you press Esc. Add a little personality to your game HTC. :)
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It's not a disruption to my way of flying and fighting - it's a disruption to the sense of 3D immersion. This isn't to say it isn't a clever interface, it is. In a non-TIR environment it works just fine. However with TIR it looks awkward, and it feels awkward, to me at least. What you're suggesting is just that I work with it the way it is now. I already do that!
And again, I'm not suggesting that there be no map key. I'm just suggesting that there be an option so that your map key can bring up the map to a user-definable, plane-relative, fixed point rather than the current user-defineable, view-relative, floating point. This is a bit of an evolution of my original idea based on the discussion here, which of course is why there's a discussion. We all want the game to be better, after all.
Can't you set up a macro with all those buttons so that when you flick the button to look down it also opens the kneeboard. This way you can adjust it to the size you want and the placement you want and everytime you look down at your "knees" it opens there on one of your knees.
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LOL! OK, the point is that I don't HAVE a button set to look down. I do all my looking with TrackIR, which tracks my head movements. The button system works fine for fixed (ie, hat-switch controlled) views. That's not what I have.
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stellaris I think the point you missed is that your request will see very little use and it wont work as well as the clipboard we have now. now spending the coading time v the benefit is not there. you can argue for it as much as you want but the answer was already given to you.
midway
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With all respect, midway, your assertion is based on ungrounded assumptions -
A) that what I'm suggesting won't work as well as what already exists and, therefore
B) it won't see much use, and so
C) it isn't worth the coding time.
So to reply
A) clearly I don't think what what exists works as well as what I'm suggesting. Not everyone has a system which can take advantage of it, but neither am I the only one. Further, I'm not suggesting the existing system change, just that an option exists.
B) there are many features in AH that don't see much use. In fact this is true of any well developed system, software or otherwise. 10% of the features see 90% of the use, which means the other 90% see somewhere between 10% and .1%. What percentage of AH flight hours are done in WWI? At a rough guess well under .1%. Was it worth putting that content together?
C) What's worth coding isn't my call to make, but that call can't be made in an informed and useful way if no-one understands the suggestion in the first place. In fact, several of the responses here have shown that the responder hadn't fully understood what I see as the issue, and thus the solution. That includes Hitech's response about knees, unless he was just being humorous, and I can only presume it >is< ultimately his call. This may be my fault for being insufficiently clear, however it behooves me to make sure the person making the call understands what I'm trying to put forward is clearly understood. This isn't arguing, it's communicating.
Last, nobody's said "No, this won't be done," so actually I haven't been given an answer. I don't even expect an answer, I'm just throwing my thoughts out to the community to improve the game. Right now they're getting rained on by most (but not all!), but maybe someone will take them and come up with a better idea. That's what discussion is for. Pixels are free.
Cheers!
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I prefer holding the virtual clipboard up to my face, instead of having it strapped to my leg.
:aok
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ww1 is a test arena for the damage model. and second your idea is not good just based on one thing: the clipboard would be so small that it wouldnt really help you much. seriously minimized the clipboard then put it where your pilot's knees would be and try to read it. it would be as used as the ww1 arena but the difference is that the ww1 is at least a test area, the clipboard wont be. I tried it and it's useless to me.
but the most important thing is that your issue can be solved by just assigning a button to quickly put the clipboard away. if your joystick doesnt have any free buttons then you can always buy a cheap joystick that you can use just for this purpose or perhaps see 68valu.
midway
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Wow, OK, one more time...
@guncrasher...
As I said earlier, I have already tested the clipboard fully zoomed out. It works for me. In fact, it works so well that I now fly with it fully zoomed out all the time, as it's less distracting than otherwise. Yes, you need a good screen, but some of us have good screens.
I also have lots and lots of buttons on my joystick/throttle, and my clipboard is already mapped to one. The main issue is the loss of immersion caused by having view relative elements when using TrackIR. The clipboard is by far the most de-immersifying (if that's a word) of the several that exist. Constantly pressing the button to open/close the clipboard is only an issue because I do that as a work-around to avoid having it zip around the sky when I look around with TrackIR.
Please note that the ONLY thing I am suggesting is that there exist an OPTION to make the clipboard plane-relative rather than view-relative. It would not have to be in the knee position (I know that was my original suggestion, I've moved past that now), it could be anywhere in your cockpit. It would not have to be fully zoomed out when used in plane-relative mode, you could zoom it as much as you like. It would not change the way the clipboard works for anyone who didn't choose the option.
It's really simple. Again, I can't speak for the code, but I do have professional software development experience in 3D graphics (granted back when "VR" was the cool buzzword). Based on that, I'd say there is much less development effort in installing this feature than there is in (for example) adding a new plane. However the P-40 (all 4 types) was .2% of kills last month, which given its poor K/D ratios suggests it was used in rather less than .2% of sorties. The P-40C specifically would be well under .03%. Estimating the active player base at 5000 based on sampling the roster, that means if I was the ONLY ONE who used this feature it would still get more flight hours than the P-40.
However at least one other brave soul has come out in support. My feeling is many more people would find it a good option given a chance to try it - but only implementation can say for sure.
Now there may be many code-based reasons this is more complex than it appears, code is like that. I'm cool if it's just too hard to implement. However the "it won't work because it'll be too small," the "just map a button," and the "not enough people will use it," objections which keep coming up here don't hold water.
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I use TrackIR as well and think this would be top notch
+1 thanks in advance HTC ;)
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+1 :aok
Why not let HTC work out the business case for coding resource..!
Ron.
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if you want a proper immersive WW2 style kneeboard just print a map for each terrain, fold it up and and strap it to your leg, then you won't have GPS on your WW2 kneeboard. :D
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How do you propose putting a kneeboard in a plane where there is no pilot, and thus....no knees?
Furthermore the clipboard "remembers" where you put it on the screen, so why not adjust to the size and location to you liking, and look down before bringing it up?
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C'mon HTC! Give us a proper kneeboard!
(https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/9086/10h/origin-d4.scene7.com/is/image/GanderMountainOvertons/13298_L1?$product$)
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Sigh... Am I really that bad at communicating? Or is karma finally getting me back for putting crazy glue on Mrs. Perkin's chair back in Grade 7?
1. There is no need for a virtual pilot with virtual knees. All we're asking for is for an option to make the clipboard plane-relative rather than view-relative.
2. I know the clipboard remembers where it was put. If you've ever used TrackIR, you'll understand why just looking down and pushing the button is not a solution. Your head (and your eyes) move continuously, and your brain does some very sophisticated processing to make your perception of a scene seem stable even though in fact it is not. This is what makes it possible to use a headtracker, like TrackIR - your proprioceptive feedback system combines with your visual stabilization system and the head-movement-co-ordinated 3D motion displayed on your screen to give you the convincing illusion that you're looking back over your shoulder (or wherever) when you turn your head - even though really you're just looking kind of sideways and your eyes are still locked on the same place they were before. It's a very clever idea and it works great.
That is, it works great unless there is some portion of the display which does not move with the 3D world around you. Like for example, the clipboard, which for various reasons is the worst offender. If you look down and bring up the clipboard, it will still jitter around with your head movements. This seriously downgrades the immersivity of the experience.
The immersion is the point. Not the virtual pilot. Not the pilot's knees. Not where the clipboard shows up. Not the button mapping. Not the size of the clipboard. Immersion. Immersion. Immersion.
Thanks for listening.
@USRanger - at this point, I'll take that kneeboard... ;)
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You are asking to make the clipboard static in relation to the airframe?
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Yes! Specifically, I'm asking for there to be an option to make the clipboard static with relation to the airframe. Included in this is the ability to set its X,Y,Z and R,P,Y with respect to the airframe.
Whew!
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I got a question stellaris. you mention that bringing the map up with a button and putting it down takes a second and is disruptive. how is looking down less disruptive?
midway
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We're visual creatures. Looking at a particular place to find a particular piece of information is a very natural thing to do.
Imagine that rather than a speedometer on your dashboard, your car had a snazzy headmount display. Now when you want to know your speed, you just push a button, and no matter where you're looking, after a second, it pops into your field of view. And stays there. Until you push the button again, when after a second it disappears. Is this better than just glancing at your speed?
Or to put it another way - if you had the option to make your whole instrument panel be locked to your view like the clipboard, and open and close with a button - would you want it?
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well first this is not a car. second you didnt answer my question. 3rd in a car analogy you have the heads up display already but you want to be able to look down instead.
midway
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Pushing a button is more disruptive than looking down, because looking is the default method by which we seek information.
Here's a demonstration - answer this simple question.
What is the exact time right now?
And your eyes just moved to the nearest clock - probably to the lower right of your screen, possibly to your watch or a wall clock. No matter where your eyes go, they go there because your brain maintains a sophisticated map linking a desired piece of knowledge (the time) to the place you can find it. This is a single-step processing "primitive," and it works quickly and instinctively.
Now try this one.
What's the top application in your task manager?
And I'll bet you just skipped past that question and kept reading, because to get the information you have to push Ctrl-Alt-Del to bring up the task manager, visually locate it and then reclose the task manager. Even though it's just a button push and takes only a couple of seconds, doing this task would take you out of the flow of reading in a way that checking the time does not.
In fact, your visual system can lock onto a known-location target (saccade is the technical term) in as little as 10 milliseconds when trained to do so, and the relevant information is in your brain 10 milliseconds after that. Compared to this a two second button-popup-button-close sequence is ten times slower. It's actually much worse than that for a bunch of other brain-processing reasons which I'll spare you unless you really want to know. So pushing a button for information is much more disruptive to whatever you're doing than just glancing to the place it always exists.
However, on a deeper level the issue is NOT pushing the button, else I would push the button once and leave the clipboard up. The issue is that the clipboard is view-locked, and the real world does not have view-locked elements. My wife is an airforce science officer who's currently working on helmet mount systems for military aircraft. Being geeky, I read everything over her shoulder, so I can tell you that view-locked information is used very sparingly in HMD, because it can cause spatial disorientation. It's also always transparent, and focused on infinity (that's why the text buffer is less an issue than the clipboard). Aces High has no IMC, so SD is not an issue, but having the clipboard jitter around in relation to the plane and the world ruins immersion for the same reason view-locked HMD elements cause SD. The brain gets two conflicting references for what the "real" orientation is, and the mental gyros tumble. In a real plane, you crash. In a simulator, you just don't feel you're flying a real plane.
Which is what we're here for, after all!
Hope this makes it clearer.
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It's cool that your wife works in that job. jealous here as that was something I always wanted to do.
in a while you will begin to understand what hitech always says. "what people ask for is not really what they want".
midway
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You're jealous? I have to live with her! Right now she's doing her ejection seat training so she can get her necessary F-18 time.
On the plus side, she thought an Avro Arrow desk model was the most romantic thing I could have got her for her birthday, after her dress sword. She loves airshows...
OK, now I'm bragging. :cool:
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Not sure why everyone is throwing up obstacles here -
Paul
You haven't spent enough time on the BBS. I'm afraid you are :bhead in this padded room.
It's a good idea. I never used TIR, but I can see your point.
Here's one for you to throw at them, the clip board doesn't display anything until you look down at it and either click on the board or it's programmed to display at that time. There's always a way.
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You haven't spent enough time on the BBS. I'm afraid you are :bhead in this padded room.
It's a good idea. I never used TIR, but I can see your point.
Here's one for you to throw at them, the clip board doesn't display anything until you look down at it and either click on the board or it's programmed to display at that time. There's always a way.
bingo you got it. which means it will take about a second or 2 from the time you look down for it to display anything. which brings up the question again what will be the difference between looking down and pressing a button to bring up the clipboard then closing it down again.
the other option would be to have it keep track of objects in real time and take a frame rate hit but that would be for everybody. and some guys are playing with low end computers already. another frame hit would push them out. you can call it an option to have it enabled but it would only be for a few people to use it.
I play with 3 screens. i really have to turn my head to look at the map as it is in a corner and minimized as small as I can see the icons but it will still be bigger than what stellaris is asking for and It would be so small as for it to be useless or it will cover the instrument panel and this you cant avoid.
the clipboard wont be hidden once you look up. learn how trackir and aces high intereact and you will see what I mean.
which goes back to what hitech always says. what people ask for is not what they want.
midway
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I've read this hole thing. :O And I think it would be a good idea to lock the clipboard in a position in the cockpit. However Hitech said you would take a big frame rate hit if you left it open. And as long as you have the choice to choose to use this feature or not I dont see the harm in it. :aok
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bingo you got it. which means it will take about a second or 2 from the time you look down for it to display anything. which brings up the question again what will be the difference between looking down and pressing a button to bring up the clipboard then closing it down again.
Your missing the op's main point buddy. You keep trying to find some kind of advantage. He's not looking for an advantage over anyone or anything. It's one thing and one thing only he is trying to get out of this, immersion. Something the wizard of oz doesn't understand.
Not everyone wants the same experience. If it doesn't detract from others experience, why shoot the idea down at all?
the other option would be to have it keep track of objects in real time and take a frame rate hit but that would be for everybody. and some guys are playing with low end computers already. another frame hit would push them out. you can call it an option to have it enabled but it would only be for a few people to use it.
I'm not getting into this old argument. It makes no sense. By your logic, we shouldn't have hi-res skins because some peoples PCs wont handle it. I would think if their system cant handle basic things in the game, they can't handle or afford to use TiR anyhow. And last but not least, the original suggestion was to make it optional.
I play with 3 screens. i really have to turn my head to look at the map as it is in a corner and minimized as small as I can see the icons but it will still be bigger than what stellaris is asking for and It would be so small as for it to be useless or it will cover the instrument panel and this you cant avoid.
the clipboard wont be hidden once you look up. learn how trackir and aces high intereact and you will see what I mean.
I don't agree and I think the clipboard would likely fill the screen when he looks down. All depends on his settings. And the clipboard shouldn't cover any of the panel as long as TiR renders a fully 3d world. You're looking straight down.
which goes back to what hitech always says. what people ask for is not what they want.
OH brother. Please stop now, or I'll be banned before he locks the thread.
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I don't agree and I think the clipboard would likely fill the screen when he looks down. All depends on his settings. And the clipboard shouldn't cover any of the panel as long as TiR renders a fully 3d world. You're looking straight down.
then if you have trackir minimize the clipboard so it fits up until when it reaches the panel then see how usefull it will be. I did that. it is pretty small to the point of being useless.
midway
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@muzik - Wow, yes, thank you! Immersion!
@midway - You're still saying it would be too small. As I said before, you could still zoom it to whatever size you want. As I said before, on my screen, even fully zoomed out, the clipboard is perfectly usable. As I said before I am now flying with it fully zoomed out all the time.
You're also still saying only a few people would use it - but you're using 3 screens! When the OS and GL code to support multi-screen went in, NOBODY used 3 screens. Technology advances. It's a good idea to be prepared for it. As I said before, in any mature system, improvements come at the margins. The question is - is particular margin going to be mainstream in a year or two. In this case, yes it is. More people will have TIR, more people will have high quality, high resolution screens, and more people will have more powerful graphics processors.
And no, I don't think this would give me any particular advantage. It'll give me immersion.
Thanks for listening!
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dude advantage is having 3 screens with trakir. now that is fricking immersion. I can see from wingtip to wingtip.
I already know you can zoom in as I played with it at the same size. guess what, i was having problems finding the base when I was rtb. I couldnt find the base that I was going to when I zomed in to see the details that I needed. that is what i am trying to tell you. play with it same size as it could fit "looking down". you will notice that it is useless a lot of the times and the frame rate hit for what it will be used is not a good exchange.
good luck with your wish. hope it works out for you. but it would help your case if you ask for a modified clipboard where all you see is the map. there wont be anything to click and have a tab open. as that will give you about 30% more viewing area of the map. now you understand the part about "what they ask is not really what they want".
midway
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Having the map be a full clipboard page is actually a good idea, and could be part of what me might start to called the "Clipboard display option" wish. Not necessary though, at least from my point of view. I don't have any trouble with the icons - I only have 1 screen, but it is a 30" IPS at 2560x1600.
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@ midway qctually this brings up a question - you're using 3 screens (which by the way, is very cool). How physically large (in inches on your screen) is the clipboard when you have it zoomed all the way out. I ask because I'd think it'd be easy to read with so much space available.
Also - don't you find the monitor bezels interfere with your view? How do you align them so the transition is smooth between them?
OK, that's 3 questions.
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my viewing is big enough so I can have it as big or small as I want on the upper right corner and stil have at least 3/4 of a monitor left. and yes it is easy to read with 3 monitors. and no the bezels dont interfere with the game as the main thing is that I have monitor to look forward. however when I had only 1 I would just quickly bring up the clipboard when needed and just as fast make it disappear. and it is the same size as I have it right now.
but to answer your main question. I dont have any saying if your wish is granted or not. but like your 30 inch monitor and my 3 23 in monitors, we are in the minority and what may seem like a great idea to us when compared to the rest of the guys who play the game with only a >23 in single monitor then you get the idea that perhaps the time hasnt come for it.
midway
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Yeah, I get it that not everyone will be able to use this. However you and I will and a lot of others will, and better screens are getting cheaper all the time so the numbers will increase. As it's optional, no-one will be forced to adopt it, if it doesn't work for them. It's good for those with nice screens now, it will be good for most people soon, and its an easy feature to implement that nicely sets HTC up for the future. win/win/win, what's not to like?
Paul
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Yeah, I get it that not everyone will be able to use this. However you and I will and a lot of others will, and better screens are getting cheaper all the time so the numbers will increase. As it's optional, no-one will be forced to adopt it, if it doesn't work for them. It's good for those with nice screens now, it will be good for most people soon, and its an easy feature to implement that nicely sets HTC up for the future. win/win/win, what's not to like?
Paul
dont include me I will see little use of it as it easr easier to see out of corner of my eye than to look down. further more lost of people play with big screens but dont have trakir. so we talking about a tiny minority of people that will play it and in the end is not worth the effort.
midway
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I said you'll be ABLE to use it, not that you WOULD.
I don't buy your argument. If too few people have TrackIR and the video capability to make use of this feature, then there is hardly any more point in installing support for TrackIR and large format screens at all. And yet - these features were deemed worth of inclusion, and aren't you glad they were? Wouldn't you be sad if someone had said "Why support three screens? Nobody has three screens." back when nobody had three screens because there was no support for them. You've got to build it before they can come.
That said, I'd love to see your statistics on how many users have trackIR, and what their screen resolutions are. I haven't been able to find any.
Cheers!
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I like the idea of having the clipboard being in a stationary spot so it does not move around with the head views :aok
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Id like for the sun to noot shine directly through it.
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I like the idea of having the clipboard being in a stationary spot so it does not move around with the head views :aok
yeah perhaps a really simple thing to do that would go some way to granting Stellar's wish would be to just add a padlock button to the Clipboard, next to the zoom buttons, to lock it in place :aok
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yeah perhaps a really simple thing to do that would go some way to granting Stellar's wish would be to just add a padlock button to the Clipboard, next to the zoom buttons, to lock it in place :aok
that would work perfect....I would use it.... :aok
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Absolutely brilliant coombz! Simplest, most straightforward concept yet. +1